Advice on 2nd Cycle Test E and Deca ??

4fitness

4fitness

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My Details:
170 LBS
5'9"
16% BF
Age : 47

Last Years Cycle was TEST E 400- 200 2x a week , all went well with proper pct.

TEST Week1-12 500 - 250 2x a week
DECA Week1-10 250 - 125 2x a week
MAYBE Anavar last 6 weeks 50mg a day ??

Ill have the Proper PCT Clomid and Nolva
After 2 weeks of last Pin Clomid 100/50/50/50 Nolva 40/20/20/20

My Question is can i put the Deca and Test in the same syringe before i pin ?

Thanks
 
nosnmiveins

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My Question is can i put the Deca and Test in the same syringe before i pin ?

Thanks
yes.

besides possibly helping with joint issues, dont expect much out of the deca @ only 250mg/week.

i would also incorporate HCG in there
 
4fitness

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deca

yes.

besides possibly helping with joint issues, dont expect much out of the deca @ only 250mg/week.

i would also incorporate HCG in there
Whats recommended 300 , maybe run it 8 weeks
 
nosnmiveins

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that would be better, but 400mg would be best
 
4fitness

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yes.

besides possibly helping with joint issues, dont expect much out of the deca @ only 250mg/week.

i would also incorporate HCG in there
Ill read up on HCG and see how to use it properly, i know its used in dieting etc.
 
gamer2be08

gamer2be08

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HCG- start on week 10 of cycle 500IU 2*per week, run up until PCT, then halt usage. IMO
 
4fitness

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HCG- start on week 10 of cycle 500IU 2*per week, run up until PCT, then halt usage. IMO
Thanks
Ill see if i can get a hold of HCG. question if i cant would it work just with clomid and nolva ?
 
gamer2be08

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If you cant get it, your PCT will still work, but its gonna take a bit longer to be fully recovered; at your age, bounce back is quite a bit slower...
 

Jimmytest

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I agree with gamer, did a similar cycle and was wishing I had used hcg, it was a slow process but it ended up not too bad so it's not nessesay but IMO I would use it.
 

HeartBreaker

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I am relatively new to this forum but i have done months of research before starting my cycle this last week. In regards to the hcg i would suggest that you do not listen to the advice give to start HCG at week 10 although hcg can be used as a pct in large quantities that IS NOT the most effective way to use HCG. IMO 250 IU every 4 days from week 2 on and discontinue use 2 weeks before you start your PCT. Deca shuts you down very hard the idea behind the hcg every 4 days on cycle is to keep you producing natural testosterone instead of having your testicles shut off completely the HCg should also protect against testicular atrophy. Anyway check out the primordial performance website and search HCg click on the link and read the article it is very informative. Good luck with your cycle
 
gamer2be08

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Amigo, even if you use HCG, you will still be shut down, it merely prevents your testicles from going into atrophy (shrinking) byt sending fake LH to them... HCG was not suggested to use during PCT, but a few weeks before and at a moderate dosage; that will bring the testicles back to size and ready for PCT. You do not need to use HCG throughout the entire cycle for it to be utilized effectively..
 
4fitness

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Amigo, even if you use HCG, you will still be shut down, it merely prevents your testicles from going into atrophy (shrinking) byt sending fake LH to them... HCG was not suggested to use during PCT, but a few weeks before and at a moderate dosage; that will bring the testicles back to size and ready for PCT. You do not need to use HCG throughout the entire cycle for it to be utilized effectively..
But im not doing deca alone im using twice amount of test, will it still shut down like that ?
 

HeartBreaker

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honestly i am new so dont listen to me but dont listen to the other guy either i really dont think he has researched the subject adequately to advise you.
Using HCg on every 4 days at 250 iu will not only stop testicular atrophy it will make your recovery much easier!
Anyway dont listen to either of us do the research and decide yourself everyone in these forums seem to be experts but they all have different expert opinions

go to the primordial performance website and search HCg READ THE ARTICLE BRO it will help you alot. Id post the link but it wont let me i havent made enough posts. just got to their website and read the article it will tell you the information that you are looking to find!
Hope this helps!
 
nosnmiveins

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But im not doing deca alone im using twice amount of test, will it still shut down like that ?
all steroids are a derivative of testosterone. having said that, they all act on ur natural testosterone and will in fact shut ur natural production down (at/for different times and durations for different compounds).

the reason why ppl suggest a sust, test e, test c, test prop, etc as a base is because it replaces ur natural testosterone production and keeps ur libido up.

BUT, all compounds will work differently for everyone, its strange, but its true. ive seen plenty ppl run tren or deca only cycles and have an increase in sex drive etc. but 98% of the population ISNT THAT LUCKY.
 
nosnmiveins

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HCG is also a difficult compound to truly understand. some say use it the entire cycle, some say use it the few weeks leading up to PCT, and some run it strictly AS a PCT.

u just have to find out what works best for U
 

HeartBreaker

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10/11/2009
HCG - Unraveled
Eric Potratz
HCG - Unraveled

By Eric M. Potratz (Email)

Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.

PCT is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.

HCG unraveled –

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given level of LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production. (recovering full testosterone production is a topic for another article)

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!

The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production) 20





In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

Based off the above information, an optimal dose of hCG during the cycle would be 250iu every 4 days, or as a less desirable alternative, once a week shot of 500iu. Keep in mind, that the half-life of hCG is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hCG at least 4 days apart for the optimal "peak and valley" replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hCG shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hCG stimulation.

If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG "kick starting" dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose) Remember, since the testes will be desensitized later in a cycle, you will require a higher dose. Also, the maximum daily dose of hCG should not exceed 5000iu, and 4-7 days must be taken off between each shot. Generally, a higher dose will require a longer off period between each shot. (eg., 2500iu = 7 days between each shot)

Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.

Recap –

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.

I hope this helps you out this is the article i was talking about and it based on research rather than opinion!
 

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