help me with this cycle, transdermal and orals... wanting to use it to BULK!!!
- 01-16-2004, 04:12 PM
help me with this cycle, transdermal and orals... wanting to use it to BULK!!!
ok guys i just received 2 bottles of the BDC transdermals. in each bottle i have 7.5 grams of 4ad and 2.5 grams of 1 test. i was thinking of throwing in some 1,4 andro @ about 900mg's per day.
i also have a bottle of m1t 10mg tabs....
i was thinking of using 2 squirts of the gel 2 times per day.
and the 1,4 andro i was going to take 300mg 3 times per day.( on this one i wasnt really sure if i should use it or should i front load the m1t and drop the 1,4 andro??????)
as usual any input would be greatly appreciated.....
i would like to run this cycle for 6 weeks so i know ill have to buy some more supplies. looking to hit 200 and im not really caring about bloat. right now im 185 and about 12% bf. im 5'7. been training since about 1994 on and off....
in the past i have done quite a few cycles in the past. the best ones were definitely the first ones, i did a couple of cycles of super one + and gained 23 lbs in 8 weeks, that is the reason i ordered BDC's gels with so much 4ad i know it definitely worked with the super.
ok enough BSing just let me know what you think. i was even contemplating using some designersupps products.
- 01-17-2004, 07:14 AM
- 01-17-2004, 09:43 AM
How about this:
Week 1-4 10-20mg/day M1T
Week 1-6 1000mg/day 1,4 andro
Week 1-6 4 squirts/day of 1T/4AD you mentioned=504mg/day 4AD & 168mg/day 1T
I'm thinking that your 1T looks low so 10-20mg/day M1T should be OK IMO since it is the only methylated PH you're using. The 1,4 andro usualy takes to week 4 to "kick in" from what I've heard so I'd run it the whole cycle. Some people, however, say the oral 1,4 andro kicks in right away. Just an idea.
01-17-2004, 08:39 PM
you dont think that is going too high on the 1,4 andro?
01-20-2004, 10:59 PM
i love this site but it needs one thing, a spot where you can go to look at different prohormone or methyl cycles like big cat made on bbing.com.....something done by a moderator or someone who knows their ****. have it catagorized by safe stack and then one where your on your own.
that would be so helpful to me and to others that dont quite know all there is to know about all this stuff. dont get me wrong i do know quite a bit from this site but i could use more info.....
01-20-2004, 11:14 PM
New PH FAQ-M 1T and other Methyls
If you are looking to bulk then it is all about calories. You need to increase the calories that you eat and the scale will move. I know it sounds obvious but this is the biggest problem for 90% of the people who are trying to gain weight.
Ultimately, bulking, cutting, or just trying to grow, the key is diet.
01-21-2004, 12:57 AM
Size is right. Diet is the key.
I know it may sound lame compared to all the discussions on this board of M1T cycles, Test prop cycles,... But I'll swear by the ultimate year round cycle. Add 100 grams of protein, 30 liver tabs and 3 oz. of flax on top of what ever you are taking now. Get one hour of extra sleep a night. Try this for a month and tell me that doesn't make a difference.
I have to treat this as a cycle (write it down in a log) so it actually happens.
01-21-2004, 06:07 AM
The guys are right about the diet. I just assumed that you have that in check since you've been on this board for a while and AM members are smart people . As for the 1000mg/week 1,4 andro, I did a search and looked some of the cycles I found. 1000mg/week looked to be a common thing. Just do a search and look into it.
01-21-2004, 07:52 AM
size i saw your thread you wrote, but i was just saying something along the lines of this article, because we have come so far from all the stuff that was available when big cat wrote this......i do appreciate any and all info though...
From Big Cat:
[QUOTE] Stack #1 - Economic beginner cycle for moderate gains.
Week 1 through 8, use 250 mg of 19Nor after breakfast and again after dinner and take 500 mg of 4-diol 45-30 minutes prior to workout or 250 mg after lunch on non-workout days.
The motivation here is to use two compounds that use different target hormones (testosterone and nandrolone) to get that double benefit, while avoiding the pitfall of stacking two products that would use the same conversion enzyme. Meaning if you were to drive up the amounts they would not compete with each other.
It's an example of an iso-stack, meaning the amounts remain the same throughout the duration of the stack. This is the most common the best way to assess the efficacy of a product and see what effect it has on you. This is advisable on a first cycle to determine what is causing which effect, allowing you to make a more informed decision the next time in terms of efficacy and safety. These are the amounts and products I usually recommend to beginners looking for a first decent stack. Both products can be obtained from plenty of high quality sources and shouldn't run you too much money, making this a strong but economic stack and an excellent choice for most beginners.
Notice that I split the two doses of Nor up, since they last longer at the receptor which means you keep a constant level of nandrolone throughout the day. For constant levels of 4-diol you'd need 4-5 doses, so instead we opted to use it as a pre-workout supplement to boost aggresivity in the gym and help recuperation and protein resynthesis afterwards. In the mean time you are getting the best of both worlds. This stack should yield decent results.
Stack #2 - Cycle for good gains.
Week 1-2 take 750 mg of 4-diol and 250 mg of Nor-diol
Week 3-5 take 500 mg of 4-diol and 500 mg of Nor-diol
Week 6-7 take 250 mg of 4-diol and 750 mg of Nor-diol
Split stack up in two doses, take one after breakfast, the other 45-30 mins before a workout in weeks 1-2, 60 mins before in weeks 3-5 and 90 mins before workout weeks 6-7.
My product choice is based on anabolic properties. I selected the two best compounds. They are both using the same conversion enzyme and could compete at an increase of dosage. So I used a teeter-stack where one product decreases in favor of the other, thereby keeping the overall amount the same from week to week. But I also manage to bring endogenous testosterone down, allowing the body to feel the decrease without dropping hormone levels. When coming off a stack this will illicit a greater response in getting natural test back on track without compromising the amount of gains made. I had a practical problem in that the 4-diol peaks after 30-45 minutes and the Nor-diol after 90 minutes, so the pre-workout administration had to move along with it, shifting it back as the Nor-diol compounds became more prevalent in the stack. Keep in mind that both compounds are fairly suppressive of HPTA, so that using ZMA coming off a cycle is advised here.
Stack #3 - Bulking cycle for nandrolone.
Weeks 1-3 take 900 mg of Nor-diol and 250 mg of 5-diol
Weeks 4-6 take 600 mg of Nor-diol and 250 mg of 5-diol
Weeks 7-9 take 300 mg of Nor-diol and 250 mg of 5-diol
Take half of Nors after breakfast and half after dinner, take 5-diol 30-45 minutes prior to workout or after lunch on non-workout days.
A classic ski-slope pattern. The dosage of the most anabolic compound decreases and so does the overall dose. This will in turn slowly signal the return of natural testosterone as the cycle furthers, which has the benefit of building more lasting and durable lean mass gains, because you'll have a chance to get natural levels high enough to maintain the accrued mass. The selection of products is perhaps my second most recommended stack. In a diol/diol stack nothing beats 5-diol, because though only moderately effective in conversion, prior to it it has the capability of upgrading receptors ensuring a greater conversion from the Nor-diol, enhancing its effects. The downside to a ski-slope is that mass accrual near the end of the stack is compromised in an attempt to maintain earlier gains.
Stack #4 - Advanced stack.
Weeks 1-2 take 300 mg Nor-diol with 300 mg 19Nor and 600 mg of 4-diol
Weeks 3-4 take 300 mg Nor-diol with 600 mg 19Nor and ZMA
Weeks 5-6 take 300 mg Nor-diol with 300 mg 19Nor and 600 mg of 4-diol
Weeks 7-8 take 600 mg Nor-diol with 300 mg 19Nor and ZMA
Weeks 9-10 take ZMA
Split totals up over 3 equally spread doses during the day. Recalibrate for each two weeks and take ZMA as directed, on an empty stomach half an hour before bedtime, with no calcium.
This is an example of a gap-stack, where one product is discontinued for a time and replaced with a natural booster to allow natural levels to be maintained to a point, thereby limiting the test crash and assuring faster recovery after the stack is over. This is a fairly high (1200 mg) and diverse (three products) stack that I would mostly recommend to experienced lifters and people who know what they are doing. This is not a stack for beginners. The three-a-day dosing promotes sustained delivery, nandrolone influx is covered, because even if the 4-diol takes up most of the 3-beta enzymes, some conversion through 19Nor happens via the 17-beta enzyme. This allows for constant flow of both target hormones. Note that the use of Nor-products should either decrease at the end or be followed with a natural test booster, because they are more likely to disrupt the HPTA, causing test crashes after a cycle.
Stack #5 (1AD and Nor-diol, 4-AD)
This is a hypothetical stack based on what I know of 1AD. Like I said, I'm trying it at the end of summer and will report back with detailed results, the good and the bad and the terrifyingly ugly (let's hope there is none of that) on just how useful 1AD really is. Here are two variations of a stack:
Week 1-6 600 mg of 1AD and 600 mg of 4AD
Take in 3 evenly spread doses of 200 mg of each product throughout the day.
This is a dose that allows you to see decent benefits off of 1AD without putting you straight in the poor house. In this instance it's a 6-week iso-stack, using 4AD as the counterpart. Because of the moderate dose and the daily spread you can get a lot out of the 4AD too. This is a very androgenic stack and should under no circumstances be taken by women. The 4AD makes a good partner for 1AD because it enhances the androgenic effect and it repairs a loss of libido that may come with the use of 1AD. Not to mention that these are possibly two of the most anabolic legal substances available today.
Week 1-2 900 mg of 1AD with 300 mg of Nor-diol
Week 3-4 600 mg of 1AD with 600 mg of Nor-diol
Week 5-6 600 mg of 1AD with 300 mg of Nor-diol
Take half the Nor-diol after breakfast and half after dinner, take 1AD spread over 3 even daily doses.
This is a tad more expensive. Ok, a lot more expensive. But this epitomizes a great stack. It's commonly believed that drugs with the effect of 1AD should be stacked with a non-androgen. And the most potent non-androgen is Nor-diol. It's a bit of a combination between a ski-slope and a teeter stack that should give great results for the small amount of time you are on it.
Normally I would recommend the use of 19Nor so there is no over saturation of the 3-beta enzyme that could compromise the conversion of the 1AD. But with the cost of 1AD I sincerely doubt that anyone can afford to take enough (or would want to) to saturate the enzymes.
Stack #6 - Precontest cycle.
Week 1-3 600 mg of Nor-diol and 300 mg of 1,4-andro
Week 4-6 600 mg of 5AA and 300 mg of 1,4-andro
Week 7-9 600 mg of 1AD and 300 mg of 5AA
Split does into three even doses (200-100 mg) and take at even intervals throughout the day.
This is a fairly long stack tailored specifically towards the needs of the cutting bodybuilder. In weeks 1-3 we are looking to boldenone and nandrolone to provide maximal protein synthesis through nitrogen retention and still avoiding too much water retention, though obviously you will get a certain amount of it here. By making the majority of the stack 5AA we avoid the formation of estrogen, as this does not aromatize and may prevent aromatisation of the other compound, which isn't particularly estrogenic by itself anyway. The 5AA is also great at hardening up muscle mass while preserving it on a low-cal diet and the boldenone off 1,4-andro is capable of maintaining nitrogen retention, stimulating endurance and giving enough anabolic effect without interfering with androgens and estrogens. In the final three weeks we exclude all chance of estrogenic water retention by using two DHT derivatives structurally incapable of aromatizing. Both compounds have the ability to harden up muscle mass, 5AA limits the amount of endogenous estrogens and prevents water retention from occurring while the 1AD can still stimulate minimal gains or at the very least retain existing gains from catabolism as the time of your show creeps up.
This stack is extremely useful if the goal is to grow and keep muscle mass on a low calorie diet with the aim of coming in absolutely dry and rock hard at the end of the stack for things like shows, guest posings or photo shoots when having definition, density and a visible six-pack are extremely important. Notice however that the androgenicity of this stack dramatically increases towards the end, meaning strength increases, but so do the risk of acne and hair loss, two things you'll want to avoid. Hair loss is only a problem in 30% of men, but acne is pretty common and needs to be treated for these events which require some level of aestheticism. Keep that in mind.
Stack #7 - The Safety stack.
Week 1-6 300-600 mg of Nor-diol and 300 mg of 1,4-andro
Split in two doses of 150-300 mg Nor-diol and 3 doses of 100 mg of 1,4 andro. Take 150-300 mg of Nor-diol and 100 mg of 1,4-andro after breakfast, take 150-300 mg of Nor-diol 8 hours later. Consume 100 mg of 1,4-andro after lunch and dinner as well.
One of the questions I most often get is, "What is the safest prohormone I can take?". I hope the paragraph above the stacking part explains that there is no one safest prohormone and that excluding certain side-effect usually means stimulating others. I also think that if you aren't willing to take the risk you shouldn't bother with prohormones, but nonetheless I took the time to set up what I believe is the safest stack. Both Nor-diol and 1,4-andro have low amounts of serious side-effects. Boldenone and nandrolone are both low in androgenic stimulation and don't interact well with the 5AR enzyme which means they are not a high risk for hair loss, prostate hypertrophy or acne. Boldenone does not aromatize, and nandrolone does so at a very low rate. On top of that there is proof that 1,4-andro acts as an aromatase inhibitor which would further reduce the chances of forming estrogen. So this really is as low as it gets where androgens and estrogens are concerned. The gains off of this should be decent, but don't expect an increase in strength or muscle hardness like you'd get off an androgenic prohormone. The downside is that this is a very suppressive stack where natural testosterone is concerned, so the use of ZMA after the cycle may be warranted here or it will be hard to maintain gains and this may result in a bit of depression and some loss of libido during, but especially after a stack.
Stack #8 - The disregard of all safety massive bulking stack.
Weeks 1-4 500 mg of 4-diol, 500 mg of Nor-diol and 300 mg of 5-diol
Weeks 5-8 750 mg of 4-diol, 250 mg of Nor-diol and 300 mg of 5-diol
During weeks 1-4 take 250 mg of Nor-diol and 150 mg of 5-diol after breakfast, 250 mg of 4-diol and 150 mg of 5-diol after lunch and 250 mg of 4-diol with 250 mg of Nor-diol after dinner.
This stack is for the big gains, but they won't be pretty. A large part of the effect of this stack is based on estrogenic action. I've never see a prohormone cause gyno, but if any stack can do it it would be this one. With the potent combination of testosterone and nandrolone spread throughout the day you create an anabolic setting but also the two hormones most likely to aromatize. Adding 5-diol in the stack will agonize the estrogens with the result being massive bulk weight in water and adipose storage. Over the entire 8 weeks that will give you a great increase in size but it will also gravely smooth you out. I don't recommend this stack to novices or to anyone who is succeptible to estrogenic side-effects. Be sure you know what you are doing before you attempt this and consider the use of DIM if you do decide to throw caution to the wind and try this.
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