I still love you BTW.

Originally Posted by Robboe

While i'm not interested in an arguement, i will address this.

Mentioned earlier - the XCEED product is nothing particularly novel other than the given amounts. That said, there was no intention to release a CEE product until Matt was asked by someone on AM to, and several people agreed. We debated actually having it released under the Designer Stackables line.

WRT prohormones and such, while it was before my time, DS never released an M1T product that i am aware of. I dunno about m-dien, but i think DS may have been the first to release M4OHN.

Oh no no no.. .those were the days... when you could go to sledges old website, and order up the M1T, Mdien, and M4OHN powders.. all in the little folded brown paper.


Ahhh.. Nostalgia.

Adams

Originally Posted by Robboe

WRT prohormones and such, while it was before my time, DS never released an M1T product that i am aware of. I dunno about m-dien, but i think DS may have been the first to release M4OHN.

Didn't realise about the M1T, but i've been told MDien was one of the DS originals.

Originally Posted by Robboe

Didn't realise about the M1T, but i've been told MDien was one of the DS originals.

First to be put out to the masses yes. But like all of the designers today, was made and researched before... just never made it to the public eye. I still have a couple bottles of MDien laying around from DS... Stacked with the other DS "Originals" M4OHN... Killer combo for a cut.

Adams

Originally Posted by drunk

I don't know how you can call Cissus an innovative product. I saw it sold in bulk before USP Labs sold it. He just marketed it to the bodybuilding community.

This is really the only point.

Cissus has been available in bulk since well before the web existed.

Harjor/Cissus has been available from every bulk herb store since they existed.

Having read about it eons ago, I was surprised to see it resurface.

And I count count on one hand the market percentage of people who buy bulk powders and cap them.

The truth is, CNW fills a small void that was once occupied by Black Star Labs, Designer Supplements, and Kilo Sports.

These companies have changed business models precisely b/c they know there's much more money in finished product.

CNW is well-loved among the small group of people who do still buy bulk powder, and for good reason.

BTW: Oh yes, the days when I bought ass-tons of M1T, MDien, M-Anything from DS....Just opened another brown envelope of M4OHN today

RE: First to market...I think DS was first with MDien and M1,4, if I'm not mistaken.

Robboe, call me a parasite of you want, but I know much more about DS issues and your products than you realize. So for now, I would ask you drop the cheap jabs before I feel obliged to jab back. I would also ask that you kindly refrain from name calling and please bow out of my forum if you cannot do so.

And, I have never, ever claimed to know all there is about the bulk stiff i carry. On the contrary, I specifically stated the the truth that I am a business man first and foremost.

O/T--is there anyway for CNW to accept paypal? Just searched this forum and your site and got nothing.

Sorry; they closed my account and will not allow me to open another.

Matt:

EMO

Parasite was a bit of a cheap shot. I'll apologize on Rob's behalf. The rest of the points about customer support of innovation are all valid, but have been beaten to death on various boards. And frankly, its not support of the bulk suppliers that hurts innovation and the sales of finished product (as many have alluded to). Its the market support of the knock-offs and knock-off companies that do.

But, end-users who support knock offs and even bulk suppliers, ought not complain about proprietary blends and fancy-footwork when it comes to labeling, and so on. Personally, I believe in transparency in this day and age, but it is increasingly becoming bad business to be transparent.

Also, there never was any relation with Black Star Labs and Avant Labs. BSL was a spin off of Xtreme Formulations.

Also, Matt, I like your signature. Best of luck. If there is anything I can do, let me know.

Originally Posted by Twin Peak

Parasite was a bit of a cheap shot. I'll apologize on Rob's behalf. The rest of the points about customer support of innovation are all valid, but have been beaten to death on various boards. And frankly, its not support of the bulk suppliers that hurts innovation and the sales of finished product (as many have alluded to). Its the market support of the knock-offs and knock-off companies that do.

But, end-users who support knock offs and even bulk suppliers, ought not complain about proprietary blends and fancy-footwork when it comes to labeling, and so on. Personally, I believe in transparency in this day and age, but it is increasingly becoming bad business to be transparent.

Also, there never was any relation with Black Star Labs and Avant Labs. BSL was a spin off of Xtreme Formulations.

As a consumer, I go no problems with transparancy

Originally Posted by houseman

As a consumer, I go no problems with transparancy

Then you shouldn't support things that discourage it.

Originally Posted by Twin Peak

Also, there never was any relation with Black Star Labs and Avant Labs. BSL was a spin off of Xtreme Formulations.

Oops--I didn't know that, sorry. I guess I got that confused.

Editing my post now.

Originally Posted by Twin Peak

Then you shouldn't support things that discourage it.

Who says I do?

Originally Posted by Twin Peak

Parasite was a bit of a cheap shot. I'll apologize on Rob's behalf. The rest of the points about customer support of innovation are all valid, but have been beaten to death on various boards. And frankly, its not support of the bulk suppliers that hurts innovation and the sales of finished product (as many have alluded to). Its the market support of the knock-offs and knock-off companies that do.

I think it comes more down to lack of education. Most people who buy a knock off don't know they're buying a knock off. Someone who buys a GXR clone for example, one with everything but the kitchen sink thrown in and sub optimal doses all around, is just making a bad choice overall. While the overall effect is companies who innovate get the **** end of the stick to one degree or another, I really don't think it's a conscious effort to screw them on the part of the consumers. The companies that make the knock offs on the other hand are out to screw innovative companies by piggy backing on the efforts of others. But aside from patents there doesn't seem to be any way to fight this, other than just not saying what's in a particular product.

I think most people's concern regarding label tranparency revolve around health effects. They want to know, for example, if they're taking a methylated hormone. They want to know about contraindications and what not, things to avoid, recommended doses. Basically they just want a reasonable idea of what they're getting. So far you guys have been good at giving as much as possible while keeping actives mostly to yourselves. For me especially though, that's my concern. Am I taking my life into my own hands while taking this new product or not, that kind of thing.

Basically, the way I see it is I cater to what the customer wants. If no one ever asked for bulk whatever, obviously I would not carry it. There will always be a few who like to say a penny by whatever means necessary, even if that means gagging down some pungent powders. Far more people would rather spend an extra buck to get a nice finished product with a fancy label. I honestly do not see these markets crossing over all that much.

USP neither invented Cissus nor produced the research that lay hold to its claims of bioactive properties. They simply took a natural, God-created plant used for hundreds of years and recently substantiated by modern science into an arena catering to our desires. There is no innovation there. Perhaps if they had synthesized a chemical constituent of a substance or created a completely new compound, then you could cast dispersions at Matt. But don't come into his forum he pays to have sponsored, broadcasting your condescending opinions of him and his practices. You could have handled this matter privately in a manner becoming a gentleman, but instead you chose to cast stones in the midst of the public in a feeble attempt to shine a negative light upon our faithful friend. I expected much more from you, Rob.

I agree with Stephene and I'm gonna stick up for Matt. He is the most honest and respected (by me at least) person I ever had to deal over internet... and I love to cap my powders

God bless you, Matt

i am still trying to figure out what matt's secret is for his "bulk stiff" ...





there will always be a market for all and everyone.. even if you throw in research chems... how easy could it be for everyone to just go ahead and buy some T-3 and lose "weight" but no.. a majority of the people want other products that may or may not work just as well, feel that they are "safer" and also easier to use.. so lets give a big ol hip hip horray for a free market system!.....( on everything except oil) but that for another thread

Originally Posted by TheCrownedOne

USP neither invented Cissus nor produced the research that lay hold to its claims of bioactive properties. They simply took a natural, God-created plant used for hundreds of years and recently substantiated by modern science into an arena catering to our desires. There is no innovation there. Perhaps if they had synthesized a chemical constituent of a substance or created a completely new compound, then you could cast dispersions at Matt. But don't come into his forum he pays to have sponsored, broadcasting your condescending opinions of him and his practices. You could have handled this matter privately in a manner becoming a gentleman, but instead you chose to cast stones in the midst of the public in a feeble attempt to shine a negative light upon our faithful friend. I expected much more from you, Rob.

Innovation is more than just finding something new. Innovation can include the research into an existing compound and marketing it for a specific reason, or putting a twist upon it that no one else has done so in the past.

Cissus may have been around for millenia, but without USP bringing it to the market for bodybuilding and fitness, it may be years until someone did - if they ever did.

Creating a new market IS innovation.

Originally Posted by TheCrownedOne

But don't come into his forum he pays to have sponsored, broadcasting your condescending opinions of him and his practices. You could have handled this matter privately in a manner becoming a gentleman, but instead you chose to cast stones in the midst of the public in a feeble attempt to shine a negative light upon our faithful friend.

By the way, i am "shinning a negative light" on everyone's support as well as him.

I'm not taking this personally, because i've had nothing of my own "knocked-off", but i find it a bit disappointing.

So those first to market a product in an "innovative" manner should be the only ones allowed to sell it under said guise? I believe that's called a monopoly and is far more damaging than any knock-off could be.
Would there be any problem if Matt started selling Cissus and USP had never marketed it as a performance aid? After all, as many have said and alluded to there have been numerous sellers of Cissus for years now. Are they now in the wrong because of USP, because they continue to sell Cissus?
Look at Matt's description:

Originally Posted by Matt Palada

Our Cissus powder has a 6% ketosterone level...one of the highest extract yields we are aware of.
Cissus quadrangularis is an adaptogenic herb from India containing bio-active saponins, and has been used for hundreds of years and shown in numerous clinical studies to speed the healing of bone fractures and dramatically reduce joint inflammation and pain. Because CQ has anabolic ketosterols, it is now included in many body building and pro-testosterone supplements that promote lean muscle mass.
Recommended dose is 1 gram two times daily or as directed by your physician.

No where in his description does he specifically advertise it in a manner like USP. He simply noted what research has shown it to be useful for while asserting that it has been included in bodybuilding products. He is stating a fact, not saying "Buy this because it will help you build muscle just like Cissus Rx, USP Labs' product" like many "generic" brand products do.

You know going into this business that there are no nice guys. No one is going to pass up an opportunity to sell a popular ingredient for a lower price than the primary seller, especially considering that even if he did that both he and the business would be in no better condition. That's a risk you take being the first to bring to market something in a new light. You create a demand for it, others step up to meet that demand, challenging your market share and business because they are able to sell it for less than you. You are now faced with the choice to either adapt or die - it's survival of the fittest. It forces the market to continue to adapt and grow, to bring out new products than will take the attention away from the one they just lost. Just because someone markets something in an "innovative" way or whatever the buzz-word is doesn't mean that they should be the only ones allowed to sell that substance. Like I said before, things are a little different when it's a brand new substance that was originally created by the initial seller, but Cissus isn't. USP didn't even do the research on Cissus. They probably read abstracts of published studies and inferred an opportunity to market cissus to a new audience. In your eyes they should be no less in the wrong than Matt because they didn't discover or market cissus first either.

Originally Posted by TheCrownedOne

So those first to market a product in an "innovative" manner should be the only ones allowed to sell it under said guise? I believe that's called a monopoly and is far more damaging than any knock-off could be.
Would there be any problem if Matt started selling Cissus and USP had never marketed it as a performance aid?

Were it not for USP, i sincerely doubt Matt would have even heard of cissus.

That's a risk you take being the first to bring to market something in a new light. You create a demand for it, others step up to meet that demand, challenging your market share and business because they are able to sell it for less than you. You are now faced with the choice to either adapt or die - it's survival of the fittest. It forces the market to continue to adapt and grow, to bring out new products than will take the attention away from the one they just lost.

This is kinda my point - the industry is NOT heading in this direction. Like i said, Avant have all but given up on designing new, innovative products. Some other companies, and i expect we (DS) will likely follow suit, have begun to resort to encrypted labelling and proprietary mixes. I'm not a fan of it, but such is the evolution.

No doubt we'll get **** for it though.

Originally Posted by Robboe

Were it not for USP, i sincerely doubt Matt would have even heard of cissus.

Well, that's your opinion that you're entitled to, but it's a moot point since there's no way of knowing whether or not that's true. But you carefully avoided the real questions I asked.

Originally Posted by Robboe

This is kinda my point - the industry is NOT heading in this direction. Like i said, Avant have all but given up on designing new, innovative products. Some other companies, and i expect we (DS) will likely follow suit, have begun to resort to encrypted labelling and proprietary mixes. I'm not a fan of it, but such is the evolution.

No doubt we'll get **** for it though.

So because someone could take your market from you for a certain product you should just refrain from releasing new, innovative products altogether? Wow, that's an awesome idea. That's like saying the only way to win is to not play - it's inane.

Originally Posted by Robboe

This is kinda my point - the industry is NOT heading in this direction. Like i said, Avant have all but given up on designing new, innovative products. Some other companies, and i expect we (DS) will likely follow suit, have begun to resort to encrypted labelling and proprietary mixes. I'm not a fan of it, but such is the evolution.

Business can suck, can't it? I spend 8 hours a day trying to meet ridiculous requests from clients who constantly ask for things that are way out of scope of their contracts. But, we have to deliver. Such is business. I'm no fan of proprietery mixes and obscure labeling either, but if that's the practice you need or think you need to follow to maintain your business, go for it. I'm still buying your stuff.

As for the point of monopoly Crowned brought up, I don't think Rob was suggesting these sellers get exclusive rights to sell or market the products they develop, or at least nothing beyond current patent protections, etc. I think his point is some businesses, and I wouldn't include CNW here, are shady and piggy back on the research of other companies.

Unfortunate? Yeah, but it is the way things work. In my opinion that's what keeps the innovations coming, the constant need for companies to bring something new to market and differentiate themselves from the flock.

I also think he was offerring a general criticism of consumers, in that if they like all these new products they should offer as much support as possible to the companies that bring them to market and not the knock-off companies. In this I'd say he's right, that is a good thing overall. With few exceptions it's what I do. For a finished Cissus or forskolin product I'd go with USP even if it lead to slightly higher cost. The only time I wouldn't would be if someone offerred something of the same quality at a much lower cost, or if someone had a demonstrably better product in some way. But that's not necessarily the market trend according to Rob and I'm in no position to refute that as I have no idea.

What I do know is this: unrestrained price competition for generic products leads to Wal Mart, for lack of a better explanation. Anonymous service, bland and generic products, and little if anything new. I think my point would be the innovators in other markets tend to survive in those markets despite the Wal Marts, perhaps in fewer numbers, and I don't see that the supplement market would be any different. There's a place for everyone, and as long as things are left alone the market will find the right balance to please most consumers most of the time.

As to whether that balance would please me, I have no idea. It'll work itself out and in the end I'm sure I'll find what I need for the most part.

You know... Anabolicminds was built one the notion of saving a buck on stuff by homebrewing. A place where you can get information on what to do with compounds if you bought them in bulk. Back then it was newer Prohormones... Well gone are those days... so it shifted elsewhere.

Robboe... Your attitude is bringing a negative light toward who you represent. Either way you are not contributing to this thread, and believe you should stay out of customs paid area.

Adams

I still don't think we're on the same page here...

I could take the cissus, TTA, 7-Hydroxy powder and all other "generics" and cap them, put an ink jet label on it and sell it for 1/2 of the name brand products and make a decent amount of cash...but I do not. I cater to a different market of buyers. This is a small niche, those who like bulk items.

BTW, thanks keeping the peanut gallery comments to a minimum in the last post by implying my dullness in not knowing what cissus is save for USP labs. Aren't you Brits supposed to be polite?

I doubt I will post again in this thread, so have fun.

Originally Posted by Robboe

This is kinda my point - the industry is NOT heading in this direction. Like i said, Avant have all but given up on designing new, innovative products. Some other companies, and i expect we (DS) will likely follow suit, have begun to resort to encrypted labelling and proprietary mixes. I'm not a fan of it, but such is the evolution.

No doubt we'll get **** for it though.

Whether or not it's DS or Avant, someone will be innovating and it'll most likely be a newer, smaller company trying to make a name for themselves. Besides people won't miss what they don't know they're missing. If nobody brings anything new to market, most people won't notice. Nobody was clamoring for a better creatine, then CEE came out. If CEE never came out, everyone would still be taking regular monhydrate and would be happy with it.

Speaking of CEE, from your agrument shouldn't we only be buying CE2 from MRI and not buy Xceed? You can really apply this argument to a lot of products.

Anyways I think I'm going to buy me some Cissus from Matt now. Let my negative light shine on!

Originally Posted by custom

Aren't you Brits supposed to be polite?

LOL