H Drol General Questions
- 04-27-2009, 12:07 AM
H Drol General Questions
Good Day Folks:
I just had some general questions about CEL H Drol...
1.) I am doing a cycle of CEL H Drol along with Anabolic Innovations Cycle Support and Post Cycle Support. I was told this is sufficient for liver support and for my PCT. Today I decided to get an additional bottle of Milk Thistle, and I also got a bottle of Tribulus from the Vitamin Shoppe because I want to do this as safely as possible. Would anyone have any advice as to whether or not this is sufficient? If so when should I start the Cycle Support and the Milk Thistle? When should I start the Tribulus and the Post Cycle Support?
Long winded I know...
2.) Right now I am using Gaspari Superpump 250 stacked with Gaspari Size On. Should I stop using these products before starting my cycle of H Drol?
Many thanks in advance for any insight you may be able to offer.
- 04-27-2009, 01:41 AM
The cycle support should be enough for hdrol as far as liver support is concerned. Though your liver values will still rise, so don't be alarmed if you get a blood test and see that. Its pretty much unavoidable.
I'd stop taking superpump and the sizeon is give or take. Superpump can cause bp issues and could possibly cause too much pump since hdrol will most likely give you great pumps. Sizeon isnt as cost effective, but if money isnt a problem i'd keep taking it. Some say you should cycle off creatine during cycle but i never do.
Make sure you get some taurine just incase of back pumps btw and you should add in an AI for your pct
04-27-2009, 10:44 AM
nickrut thanks for the reply and I will surely take your advice especially regarding the superpump because I've noticed that even when I take even less than a scoop my heart feels like it's gonna beat out of my chest lol.
I'm not ashamed to say that I'm new to the supplement game so as far as back pumps, I don't know what that means. And I've read countless forums where people talk about getting an AI for post cycle but I don't know what that means either. Hopefully anyone that reads this can teach me a thing or two, if not I'm sure if I read enough I can figure it out.
04-30-2009, 07:53 PM
05-01-2009, 12:23 AM
I would take CompEdgeLabs recommendation for an HDrol pct! As for the HDrol doseage I would run it at this doseage based on your size: 50/75/75/75/75. By the way 1 pill = 25mg so this would be (pills): 2/3/3/3/3. Your going to need 2 bottles tho. If not 50mg thru out will be fine!
05-01-2009, 10:28 PM
05-02-2009, 12:10 PM
Taurine considerations and PH/PS/DeS/AAS
The coupling of this compound with many of these agents, most notable SD is secondary to a few things...
lets digress for a moment
"BACK PUMPS" are the kidneys until proven otherwise, I am fine to suggest this kidney aggitation of sort being secondary to an increased blood volume secondary to increased Hematocrit and ion depostion. You might ask well, how the hell does this work dinoiii if you think its blood volume and the like...well a great % of your cardiac output need be filtered by the kidneys and there are a slew of smaller vessels within the kidney that are very pertinent (but I will save the anatomy lesson in this one).
Taurine in and of itself aids this scenario by potentiating increases in cell volume via effects in the ion-flux and nutrient gated transport.
BUT HOLD THE PHONE, THAT'S NOT ALL!!!
90% of bb's also have a simple deficiency of taurine to begin with. You may say, so what you're telling me is that correction of the deficiency is going to alleviate my symptoms, right?
What I will say is that deficiency of taurine contributes to elevated blood pressure in people with hypertension. And what you get when you go on a PH/PS/AAS cycle is the potential for increased blood pressure. Limited research has found that supplementation with taurine lowers blood pressure in animals and in people. This is hypothesized through a reduction in the hormone epinephrine. Because, yup - you guessed it...increased blood through the tiny blood vessels of the kidney even produces issue with the organ tissue itself.
So, I ingest a couple caps of taurine and I am fine. Well - in a placebo-oriented world ... maybe, but a couple caps has NOT corrected the deficiency I describe above.
Most people don't dose taurine appropriately to begin with, taurine in the average 70kg individual (or 154 pounds for the "metrically"-deficient Americans reading along) should be dosed at 6 GRAMS to see true efficacy. For the average 200 pound bb, this is increased to about 7 GRAMS, higher weight...likely as high as 8 or 9 to accomplish satisfaction of volume of distribution differences.
So - let's summarize the dinoiii-model of taurine "Back-Pump" alleviation shall we (in a cliff-notes version):
Pathway #1: PH/PS/AAS --> Inc Blood Volume --> Taurine ingestion --> Ion Flux, Nutrient-Gated Transport (Volume Correction Factor)
Pathway #2: PH/PS/AAS --> Inc Blood Volume --> Inc BP --> Taurine ingestion --> Dec Epinephrine --> Dec BP
End Result of Both = Contribution to Dec "Back Pumps" (aka - kidney pains).
Serious Nutrition Solution ~~
mw at seriousnutritionsolutions dot com
mike at competitiveedgelabs dot com
05-03-2009, 11:11 PM
Wow ok so maybe that's what I've been feeling on either side of my lower back lately. This couldn't be a better explanation. In conclusion, I think along with my second bottle of H Drol I will be ordering some Taurine as well. What's a good brand to go with? And as far as my PCT, I have been getting mixed messages. A lot of people were advising me to get a bottle of Reversitol, so I ordered one. But then other people (including CEL reps) have said that Reversitol pales in comparison to 6oxo. Seeing as how I already ordered the Reversitol do you think it would be worth sending it back and getting the 6oxo instead? How much of a difference would it actually make?
05-05-2009, 01:17 AM
You will be fine with Reversitol buddy. Just include some natural test booster like Blue-Up and CEL's cortisol control.... along with basic support supps and you will be fine!
05-05-2009, 04:34 AM
Eight replies to OP and not one person has told him to have a SERM handy.
Well you should have a serm handy, and unless you have a good reason for not using a serm, you should use the serm for PCT. Yes even for halo.
I've heard recommendations that you should start cort control from day one of PCT to day 15. But nobody ever explains why and it's frustrating as can be.
Can someone out there please explain the pros/cons of starting cort control right away vs starting it at week two or three? I'd like to make an educated decision about when to start cort control rather than blindly following. Not sure why I've had such a hard time getting intel on this subject.
05-05-2009, 01:23 PM
There are two trains of thought on when to use a cortisol blocker during PCT. Some people say that the cycle keeps cortisol suppressed, so no need to add one until 10 to 14 days into PCT when in theory it would be coming back up. The other school of thought is to start day 1 of PCT bc the cycle either may not be suppressing cortisol enough or to have the supps in your system by the time the cortisol spike would occur. That is the cliffnotes version - you can find more detail than that.
05-05-2009, 02:53 PM
I assume if you're going to advise against a serm you're going to recommend an OTC AI. What OTC AI has no potential sides and no possibility of rebound gyno?
It seems to me that most OTC AI's have more potential sides than torem.
I understand that your product is mild and you want people to feel like a serm is not needed. And I'm not saying that a serm is needed, most people can get away without a serm when using h-drol. But if someone wants to be as careful as possible then torem is the most user friendly and foolproof option.
You may choose to not recommend serms but I don't think you should discourage people from using serms if they prefer to go in that direction. As far as I can tell there is no downside to using torem in PCT. It's safe, effective, fast and in many cases cheaper than OTC PCT.
I think stronger cases can be made against using nolva and especially clomid, but I've not seen many good arguments for using OTC over torem.
What AI do you recommend that has fewer sides and is safer than torem?
My comments are not based on experience, they are based on many weeks and COUNTLESS hours of research here and on other sites. I'm starting the third week of my first halo cycle tomorrow so my first PCT starts in three weeks. I'm always open minded to new and reliable information.
05-05-2009, 02:59 PM
05-05-2009, 03:04 PM
05-05-2009, 03:16 PM
05-05-2009, 03:56 PM
I have never had to use a SERM, and havent seen where hardly anyone else ever has had to for H-Drol. You stated that I told him not to, and that is untrue. I said keeping one on hand is fine, but that I didnt think it would be needed.
I personally have used ATD products in the past, and rebound has never been an issue, and wouldnt be on H-Drol. If not a fan of ATD, look into our topical Formestane. There is a ton of feedback on topical Form.
I dont discourage people from going that direction if they choose. I discourage people from making people feel like they need to go that direction when it isnt true.
If you dont think that torem (or any other SERM) can have possible sides, I encourage you to research them further.
I see no downside in starting a cortisol blocker on Day 1 of PCT. That is what I do myself.
Also, dont take my post as being hostile towards your opinion. You are entitled to your own, I simply dont agree with you, and feel that not saying so would be detrimental in this case. I spend the majority of my day talking to people using our products, and I myself wouldnt use a SERM in an H-Drol PCT, so I dont feel comfortable recomending that they do either.
05-05-2009, 04:56 PM
Sorry I didn't include Suppress-C in my list of anti cort options. The omission wasn't intentional.
05-05-2009, 05:29 PM
05-05-2009, 06:02 PM
I just think that SERM's are overused and arent a blanket solution.
No harm on the Suppress-C, its new, so people are still overlooking it some. I do feel very confident that people will find it the most effective cortisol blocker that they have used though.
05-05-2009, 09:17 PM
Serious Nutrition Solution ~~
mw at seriousnutritionsolutions dot com
mike at competitiveedgelabs dot com
05-05-2009, 09:22 PM
Especially not with Torem.
All I can say is that people should do their research in multiple places to get a true and complete picture.
If you haven't spent at least a month trying to make sense of everything before your first cycle then you are unprepared. As I heard someone once say, research until your eyes are bleeding. Let them heal and repeat. Then you'll be ready.
05-05-2009, 10:18 PM
If you get help from well experienced, qualified people it can save you alot of time. Not everyone is going to agree on everything though.
05-05-2009, 10:33 PM
There are a lot of experienced people online but there's no way to know how qualified someone is. Or what their motivations are for that matter. And even if you know what everyone's qualifications are and what their motivations are you'll still get information that is all over the map.
That's why you have to do a lot of research so that you can try to figure out what makes sense for you. And if you want to use hardcore stuff you should start with the mild stuff so you understand what works for you and what your body responds best to, especially for PCT.
After all the research I did before starting my first cycle I think it would be foolish for anyone to use a hormonal product unless they've been seriously training for about five years and have experimented with many different non-hormonal OTC products. Unless you've got this foundation and this experience you're going to have a harder time making educated decisions. There is no consensus about most subjects, so at the end of the day you will either blindly follow what others say or you will make smart choices based on the knowledge you've acquired.
05-06-2009, 03:01 AM
Heres some info I located about Torem:
Toremifene: Usually dosed around 60 mgs, some dose it up to 240 mgs. Its androgenicity:estrogenicity ratio is 5x that of Nolvadex. It is prescribed to female patients for breast cancer and has shown a high affinity for bonding to the Estrogen receptors in the breast tissue. Male patients treated with toremifene citrate 80 mg compared to placebo demonstrated statistically significant increases in bone mineral density in the lumbar spine, hip, and femur skeletal sites. It decreased the risk by up to 50%. Toremifene citrate 80 mg treatment compared to placebo also resulted in a decrease in total cholesterol, LDL, and triglycerides, and an increase in HDL. There were also statistically significant improvements in gynecomastia. This data are from an ongoing study of men receiving treatment for ADT (androgen depravation therapy). These men are receiving ADT for advanced prostate cancer. ADT removes much of the testosterone and estrogen in the body which helps the prostatic cancer cells grow. So these men were suffering from side effects from reduced estrogen and testosterone in the body. Some studies have even suggested that Torm doesn't regulate progesterone receptors and we may see in the future the possibility of using it with 19-nors.
Some possible side effects include the risk of stroke, pulmonary embolism, and cataracts.
A typical PCT of Toremifene only would be similar to this:
Week 1: 120mg ED
Week 2: 90mg ED
Week 3: 60mg ED
Week 4: 30mg ED
As everyone is different and may need a serm, I didnt need one for HDrol.
05-06-2009, 12:52 PM
05-06-2009, 02:33 PM
05-06-2009, 03:39 PM
05-07-2009, 12:00 AM
So I got my second bottle of H Drol in the mail today, along with a bottle of Reversitol, a bottle of Lean Xtreme, and some Taurine powder. I started 75mg the 6th day of my cycle because I figure if I'm gonna do it, why not get the most out of my cycle?
Some additional points: Before I got H Drol I was experimenting with different creatine products and different NO preworkout supps. I don't know if it's because I'm a big guy or what but I feel like my body is already assimilating to the compound. The first week I was taking it I would get these crazy euphoric bursts of energy, but now after I take my first 25mg dose in the morning, or even my 50mg dose in the evening, most times I find myself struggling to control my temper. Don't get me wrong I'm not undermining this product at all, and I will continue my cycle as planned, I am only describing the physiological and psychological effects that it has had on me thus far.
Some days in the gym I have felt bionic, other days I have felt lethargic and in those cases I find myself craving SuperPump 250 or Animal Pump, which are my favorite NO preworkout supps. I was told I would get a pretty good pump with H Drol. Some days I do...is it possible that I wait too long after taking the dose to hit the gym?
Other than that today makes one full week and I feel good. No sides and my muscles definitely feel more solid and lean. I'm thinking about doing a log of my cycle but I don't wanna bore people to death lol. Maybe I'll do a log just for the purpose of monitoring my own progress regardless of what people think. I should be weighing myself regularly anyway. Anybody have any suggestions?
05-07-2009, 12:47 AM
It sounds like you are experiencing some wicked placebo. Most people don't notice anything until the third week of their cycle. If they experience anything in the first two weeks it's very mild. I wonder what you're going to feel like when the halo really kicks in.
I'm logging a cycle right now. Today is the first day of my third week and so far I haven't noticed a whole lot of anything.
If you're taking 75 ED most people would recommend spacing that evenly into three doses. Doesn't matter if one of the doses is a "pre-workout" dose.
05-07-2009, 01:17 AM
You felt pain in your balls only 2 days into your cycle did you not?! I have been reading a lot of H Drol logs lately and I have also heard the 3 week crazy gains theory but as I read different logs I see that some people have gained an insane amount of weight in just one week! Others have leaned out within a week's time and have already started recomping. I think the effects of this compound depend on the individual and I don't think you should be so quick to conclude that I am experiencing placebo.
Other things I have noticed are increased sweating, increased appetite, and definitely in the first week experienced a HUGE increase in libido but that has subsided.
Regarding my workouts, I've been incorporating abs into every session. In just a few days I'm seeing a leaner midsection and even a little bit of muscle growth in my abs! I'm noticing though that rest is so important because on nights where I have stayed awake even until just 1 or 130 to wake up at 7 or 8 I feel as if I'm sabotaging my regimen because even with a PH in my system, it's not enough to combat fatigue from sleep deprivation. I have had countless lectures about getting enough rest from people encouraging me to get the most out of my cycle, so this will be my last post for the evening.
Anybody interested in seeing a log of my results from my H Drol cycle?
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