Brief Sciene on Anadraulic Pump and not to mix creatine with NO

[LG Sciences]

It comes down to nutrient timing. We feel that NO products are best taken 15 minutes prior to workouts and creatine taken 1 hour prior to working out. Taking them together to us seems like a much less effective way to take these cool supplements.

In a nutshell Persky showed that creatine takes 40-50 minutes to get into the muscle and also that creatine mixed with carbohydrates may take even longer supporting our theory that 60 minutes is probably optimal and buttressing our internal testing.

It would seem that L-Arginine products suffer a similar fate that things like Prohormones do. Arginase is expressed in the liver and seems to deactivate Arginine before it can become a NO precursor as demonstrated in the studies of intravenous arginine vs. oral arginine. IV Arginine showed promise yet oral didn't which leads me to believe co-factors like Quercetin that can inhibit liver based Arginase should really help increase the efficacy of the product.

Pharmacokinetics of intravenous and oral l-arginine in normal volunteers by Oranee Tangphao shows that a peak concentration of oral L-Arginine occurs at about 60 minutes after ingestion, but the graph shows around 15 minutes significant L-Arginine is circulating and peaks at 60 minutes where it is then at a pretty steady state for about 100 minutes. So, right about when you hit the gym you are getting an infusion of Arginine at active levels and peaks during your workout.

J Clin Pharmacol. 2003 Jan;43(1):29-37.
Single- and multiple-dose pharmacokinetics of oral creatine.

Persky AM, Müller M, Derendorf H, Grant M, Brazeau GA, Hochhaus G.

Department of Pharmaceutics, College of Pharmacy, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida, USA.

Supplementation with exogenous creatine (Cr) has shown physiological benefits in humans, but little is known about the pharmacokinetics of Cr in humans. Six healthy males completed an open-label study consisting of a full pharmacokinetic analysis following a single oral dose of Cr monohydrate (71 mg kg-1) and at steady-state after 6 days of Cr administration (71 mg kg-1 qid). After the single oral dose, the clearance (CL/F) was 0.20 +/- 0.066 L h-1 kg-1, tmax was 1.9 +/- 0.88 hours, and Cmax = 102.1 +/- 11.2 mg h L-1. At steady-state, CL/F decreased to 0.12 +/- 0.016 L h-1 kg-1, tmax did not change, and Cmax increased to 162.2 +/- 30.0 mg L-1. Penetration (AUCMUSCLE/AUCPLASMA) of Cr into the interstitial muscle space, as determined by microdialysis, was 0.47 +/- 0.09 and 0.37 +/- 0.27 for the single dose and at steady-state, respectively. Plasma and muscle data were simultaneously fitted with a model incorporating a saturable absorption and first-order elimination process. In conclusion, repeated dosing of Cr caused a reduction in clearance that could result from saturation of the skeletal muscle pool of Cr.

Pharmacokinetics of creatine.

McCall W, Persky AM.

Division of pharmacotherapy and Experimental Therapeutics, School of Pharmacy, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7360, USA.

Research has demonstrated that creatine supplementation has some therapeutic benefit with respect to muscle function and more recently neurological function. Despite the growing body of literature on the pharmacologic effect of creatine, very little is known about the disposition of creatine after supraphysiologic doses. The movement of creatine throughout the body is governed by transport processes which impact the absorption of creatine from the intestine, clearance of creatine from the kidney, and access of creatine to target tissues. With repeated doses of creatine, it appears that the clearance of creatine decreases mainly due to the saturation of skeletal muscle stores. Insulin and insulin-stimulating foods appear to enhance muscle uptake of creatine but at the same time, high carbohydrate meals may slow the absorption of creatine from the intestine. Little is known about creatine disposition in special populations including the elderly and patients with neuromuscular disease. Knowledge of creatine disposition in these clinically relevant populations can help remove some of the guess work of dose selection during clinical trials.
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[corsaking]

SO if we are to believe this , then all the pre workout supplements , which are based on creatine and n.o.are a waste of money because they are ineffective?

[JudoJosh]

I don't think LG is saying they are a WASTE of money just explaining his reasoning for seperating the two products. Taking them both simotaneously isn't a waste just prolly less effective then seperating them. Then again I didn't read any other studies then this one so really can't speak for sure just saying I think LGs point is that you can increase the effectiveness by seperating the two products and taking them in the above time periods.

[Resolve]

It's certainly an unorthodox line of thought, but definitely one worth trying out. I use bulk Creatine Mono so it won't be hard to separate that from the rest of my pre-workout stuff.

[djbombsquad]

Arginine does not increase no production any how. This is just one study out of many. They need to shoe us all the studies to make a fair statement.

[JudoJosh]

Arginine does not increase no production any how. This is just one study out of many. They need to shoe us all the studies to make a fair statement.

Umm I don't think the study he posted is saying arginine increases NO production

[quote]It would seem that L-Arginine products suffer a similar fate that things like Prohormones do. Arginase is expressed in the liver and seems to deactivate Arginine before it can become a NO precursor as demonstrated in the studies of intravenous arginine vs. oral arginine. IV Arginine showed promise yet oral didn't which leads me to believe co-factors like Quercetin that can inhibit liver based Arginase should really help increase the efficacy of the product.[\quote]

isn't that what this part is saying?


Unless of course I am reading it wrong

[corsaking]

Arginine does not increase no production any how. This is just one study out of many. They need to shoe us all the studies to make a fair statement.

arginine may not increase n o production but it is responsible for same.

http://www.dietaryfiberfood.com/l-arginine-benefits.php

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/no2.html

[capnsavem]

interesting thought process...

[LG Sciences]

Yeah, from my research it seems as if injected Arginine increases NO but oral does not, which is why it would appear that liver Arginase is the culprit and therefore benefits from Quercetin's arginase reduction ability.

[corsaking]

at the end of the day , you have a choice , take a supplement with arginine in whatever form or not.
You can analyse and analyse for ever more.However those that take supplements such as no explode , superpump250 will come out and say they work

[LG Sciences]

For sure, it is all theory no matter what we say...as I said, they can't even agree on Global Warming...

[SokVichet]

Interesting stuff for sure. I'm still disappointed that MST decided to include Arginine in their new Ragnarok (RagNOrok, nice name play there guys), as I like to experiment and go without pump products. I actually prefer NOT to use N.O. products on arm/shoulder day as the pumps can sometimes impair my workout.

Also, it's a bit obvious, but another contradiction commonly shows up in NO products: Caffeine. I love that you left it out, if simply for the fact that I don't like caffeine preworkout.

Aw man. I was hoping I could go at least a single day without getting reminded of the Global Warming idiocy. Thanks alot, LG, now I have to go vent about it :P It's 20+ degrees lower than average (reaching records) for the past few weeks here forcing snide comments from my mouth, so I'll spare you any further comments <3

Thanks for the article.