HST or Starr/Ripptoe 5x5

[Johnsonator]

Which do you think is more effective in terms of long term gain? Also, which do you feel is a better lean muscle mass builder?

 

[exnihilo]

A properly planned 5x5 will provide better strength gains, and probably better lean mass gains over time. You need to alternate periods of higher volume and periods of lower volume, and I think that 5x5 does a better job of setting this up for long term progression.

 

[Johnsonator]

Would anyone be able to help me figure out my 8 week starr program? I can give you my maxes and such, I guess i'm a little confused on how to do it?

Thank you!

 

[exnihilo]

start out at about 75%-80% of your rm, work up to ~105-110% of your RM.

they also have calculators at Powerlifting Heads-Up gatornutrition.com lowest supplement prices

 

[Beebs]

I just did my first cycle of HST, and I'm pretty impressed. I think it should definetely be considered to break up a normal stagnant routine and give some time to build tendons.

 

[Stavross]

I love 5x5 routines. I haven't done the bill starr one i just have done my own and one from dinosaur training by brooks kubik.
mine was 2-3 warm ups then 5x5 at the same weight with about a minute rest.
Brooks kubiks was 3 warm ups then2 work sets with the same weight.

I have had more mass gains with low reps than anything else.

 

[chainsaw]

I just did my first cycle of HST, and I'm pretty impressed. I think it should definetely be considered to break up a normal stagnant routine and give some time to build tendons.

Build Tendons??? I was always wondering why people would mention this, when people say "you need to take a break and build some tendon strength" what does this mean, could you explain a training routine.

 

[Beebs]

HST slowly builds load while mantaining a constant volume to prepare your body for heavy weights.

It goes something like this:
2 weeks 1x15
2 weeks 2x10
2 weeks 3x5
2 weeks negatives 3x2
1-2 weeks strategic deconditioning (AKA rest)

This really is just a small part of HST protocal. Check out the website at Hypertrophy-Specific Training : : Official Home of HST

 

[DragonRider]

Build Tendons??? I was always wondering why people would mention this, when people say "you need to take a break and build some tendon strength" what does this mean, could you explain a training routine.

The tendons don't grow as quickly as the muscles do, especially if you are on steroids. If you continue to go up in weights without giving the tendons time to catch up to the muscle, you risk tearing muscles or detaching tendons.
I tore the tendon in my right pectoral 2 years ago.

 

[magic8989]

From my experience i found a 5x5 type of scheme worked pretty good for strength gains for me. I made it into a 4 day split though going lower, upper, off, lower, upper. I took 2 weeks to work up to my 5RM and then on the 3rd week i tried adding 5lbs each week if i could. I pyramided up to the top set also. Here is an example if it helps. 5RM for bench 200. So i calculated 10% increments from 200 on the way down from 5 sets. So it goes 120, 140, 160, 180, 200 for 5 reps. HOpe this helps.

 

[Innings Eater]

HST does one thing no one really speaks of when comparing plans. It gives your mind/spirit a break while you work with sub-maximum resistance. I feel this approach allows me to mentally/spiritually gear up for later weeks as the # of reps decrease and the weights increase. I feel this approach could potentially allow for more consistent progress, day after day, month after month. Just my experience.

 

[CDB]

5x5 is HST, as far as it goes. Remember HST is not a specific workout, it's just some principles based on science that explain why what works actually does work, and helps you focus on which variables to modify in your own approach. All you need is a progressive load, a higher frequency per muscle group, and deconditioning when necessary. Anything that fits within those guidelines is technically an 'HST' workout. 5x5 fits perfectly.

Personally I prefer the Pendlay 5x5, and think that once you're trained up and using heavy weights fairly frequently the 15s in the cookie cutter HST workout are way over rated when compared to a simple deloading phase.

 

[Beebs]

5x5 is HST, as far as it goes. Remember HST is not a specific workout, it's just some principles based on science that explain why what works actually does work, and helps you focus on which variables to modify in your own approach. All you need is a progressive load, a higher frequency per muscle group, and deconditioning when necessary. Anything that fits within those guidelines is technically an 'HST' workout. 5x5 fits perfectly.

Personally I prefer the Pendlay 5x5, and think that once you're trained up and using heavy weights fairly frequently the 15s in the cookie cutter HST workout are way over rated when compared to a simple deloading phase.

The 15's may seem silly, but I find that they help me build back muscle endurance after any period of strategic deconditioning. No one wants to come off a two week break and just jump right back into it. Thats the beauty of HST though is that there is a lot of freedom and personal preference.

 

[CDB]

The 15's may seem silly, but I find that they help me build back muscle endurance after any period of strategic deconditioning. No one wants to come off a two week break and just jump right back into it. Thats the beauty of HST though is that there is a lot of freedom and personal preference.

I guess they have some value for some. Lite weight work doesn't do much of sanything for me though. I have to stay with the heavier weights for the most part to see results, and when I deload I keep them heavy and drop volume.

 

[t-bone2]

5x5 is HST, as far as it goes. Remember HST is not a specific workout, it's just some principles based on science that explain why what works actually does work, and helps you focus on which variables to modify in your own approach. All you need is a progressive load, a higher frequency per muscle group, and deconditioning when necessary. Anything that fits within those guidelines is technically an 'HST' workout. 5x5 fits perfectly.

Personally I prefer the Pendlay 5x5, and think that once you're trained up and using heavy weights fairly frequently the 15s in the cookie cutter HST workout are way over rated when compared to a simple deloading phase.

This is a great call, CDB. I haven't yet tried HST (I will this winter), but did the Pendlay 5x5 (as outlined by MadCow2) and broke through plateaus in every lift.

OT - CDB, your link to the Mises Institute shows tremendous wisdom in the area of true, free-market economics!

 

[CDB]

This is a great call, CDB. I haven't yet tried HST (I will this winter), but did the Pendlay 5x5 (as outlined by MadCow2) and broke through plateaus in every lift.

OT - CDB, your link to the Mises Institute shows tremendous wisdom in the area of true, free-market economics!

I love the Mises Institute. Daily reading, free lectures, great books.

I love Pendlay's 5x5. One of the best programs out there in my opinion. I was thinking of taking a stab at the Smolov Squat cycle now htat my knees are behaving.

 

[longtom74]

I just finished my first 2 week 15 rep cycle ogf HST training. I hate it! Does it really work? I feel like crap leaving the gym. I hate going to the gym for the first time in years. Is this training method worth it? I used West side mixed with some Doggcrap methods and loved it. I just wanted to change up my natural routine:scratch before my next cycle.

 

[CDB]

I just finished my first 2 week 15 rep cycle ogf HST training. I hate it! Does it really work? I feel like crap leaving the gym. I hate going to the gym for the first time in years. Is this training method worth it? I used West side mixed with some Doggcrap methods and loved it. I just wanted to change up my natural routine:scratch before my next cycle.

Yes, it really works. But as has been said the 15s aren't necessary really, it all depends on how you want to approach it. If you've been laying off for a while I'd recommend going through with them. Once trained it's perfectly possible and acceptable to stick with the heavier weights.

 

[thesinner]

I just finished my first 2 week 15 rep cycle ogf HST training. I hate it! Does it really work? I feel like crap leaving the gym. I hate going to the gym for the first time in years. Is this training method worth it? I used West side mixed with some Doggcrap methods and loved it. I just wanted to change up my natural routine:scratch before my next cycle.

I'm on the same page as you, just finished my second week of 15 reps today. Thought it would be clever to do an HST cycle as the training protocol during post cycle therapy. I hate it as well, but for different reasons.

I really hate training with this low of a volume, and only 3 days per week. Every workout, I finish with the feeling like I have more fuel in the tank. A workout only takes me about 35-40 minutes, and are incredibly boring.

If you can get passed boring, infrequent lifting sessions, my results have been pretty good. BF has gone down, strength has gone up, and post-cycle mass has been nicely retained.

 

[longtom74]

My mistake was that I did the 15 repper. I only took a week off. I did DC for post cycle. I didn't gain weight but I kept almost all. I kept going up in strength. I'm going to stick with it for the tens and see how I feel. I'm used to lower volume so I may like it better. I hope.

 

[lifthardheavy]

HST does work but it takes time to overcome the psycological hurdle of training at lower intensity. I gained more size than on max/OT although max/OT made me much stronger.

If you're looking for strength + size, you will need to alternate HST with something else. It is a poor choice for strength as I found out.

 

[thesinner]

If you're looking for strength + size, you will need to alternate HST with something else. It is a poor choice for strength as I found out.

I guess I should note, that when I said my strength went up, I was referring to being able to perform 15 reps with heavier weights. It is unlikely that my 1RM has increased.

 

[longtom74]

I'll stick it out I have a feeling it will be better at the 5vers

 

[choco]

Hst and bill stars 5x5 is all you need !
these two programs alternating are working wonders !!!:cheers:

 

[CDB]

Hst and bill stars 5x5 is all you need !
these two programs alternating are working wonders !!!:cheers:

After using both I prefer my own slightly tweaked version of the Starr/Pendlay to the Starr linear or single factor version. The linear single factor version I don't think is that great once you're more advanced and lifting much heavier weights. For newbies though the combination of the two can work magic.

 

[Rostam]

After using both I prefer my own slightly tweaked version of the Starr/Pendlay to the Starr linear or single factor version. The linear single factor version I don't think is that great once you're more advanced and lifting much heavier weights. For newbies though the combination of the two can work magic.

Can you please explain your tweaked version to us?

 

[CDB]

Can you please explain your tweaked version to us?

It's very simple actually. I drop the volume by a set or two on the volume phase when my knees are screaming at me. Not always necessary though. I use full rep clean and presses instead of the incline press/military press option. Frequency is a bit different too as I always take two days before 1x5 or 1x3 days on the bench and row. I find the extra recovery benefits me there. My legs tend to recover fairly quickly, probably because I'm not using as much weight as I would/could if my knees were up to spec. I'm planning on pushing them further next cycle on the deadlift, and if that works out better then on the squat. Minor tweaks to be sure, but I find them helpful. Especially the full clean and press. It's one of the best exercises in my opinion, and one of the most unknown and under appreciated amongst those who do know about it.