How fast can muscle tissue be built without steroids?

[The Doberman]

This has probably been discussed before, but if so I could not find it. And I am sure there is no pat answer that can be given because of all the factors involved.

But generally, how fast can muscle tissue be built without steroids? I often hear "1lb per week" thrown around, but never any cite or explanation as to why this might be correct.

Opinions?

 

[Chunky]

You can't put 1 lb of pure muscle each week, or else we all would weight 400 pounds with 10% bf.

A newbie could put around 20 lbs of lean muscle in a year, maybe more, while the more advanced bodybuilders (4-5 years and more) often struggle to gain 10 lbs a year.

 

[Nitrox]

The question really is not specific enough. The rate of muscle gain would be quite dependent on gender, body type, size, state of development, and of course training and nutrition regimen.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

This has probably been discussed before, but if so I could not find it. And I am sure there is no pat answer that can be given because of all the factors involved.

But generally, how fast can muscle tissue be built without steroids? I often hear "1lb per week" thrown around, but never any cite or explanation as to why this might be correct.

Opinions?

Person N can have their muscles grow at a rate R, if R is the limit of their genetic potential, given they fill all 1-X prerequisites

That's about as much detail as I can give you!

Maybe 30 lean lbs over the first two years, after than maybe another 10 over the next two, then 5 over the next two, then you're struggling for anything If you want to throw fat lbs in there, hell, the amount is almost limitless :rofl:

 

[bigpetefox]

Genetics, muscle maturity, constant training/feeding changes to accomodate.. It can be done without steroids, I did it for 13.5yrs before even bothering with 'em..

 

[lifted]

What exactly is the definition of muscle maturity? I've always heard the term thrown around but never knew what it meant...

 

[bigpetefox]

The point where the muscle has a certain shape to it, and that shape as you get older doesn't change.. I think the little bit of maturity my muscles have to them has helped while cutting, my shape stays the same yet i get bigger..

Ronnie's results are that of maturity in the muscle, yet he has lost alot of lines at the 300lb mark..

 

[Nabeshin]

It really is guesswork, but I think kwyck's guidelines are pretty much right.

 

[Sturgplaya]

The longer you have been training the harder it is to gain. All of the above is pretty correct. Everyone will stop gaining that is why people plateau even with different training styles and diets. That is when people turn to supplements to boost them over and gain more.

 

[VolcomX311]

The longer you have been training the harder it is to gain. All of the above is pretty correct. Everyone will stop gaining that is why people plateau even with different training styles and diets. That is when people turn to supplements to boost them over and gain more.

Preach it. 10lbs of solid muscle a year for a veteran lifter (naturally) would be pretty fricken great, but newbies gain quite a bit and very quickly, particularly in strength. Tons of strength gains are attributed to neural adaption with new lifters. Strength gains will come with newbies far sooner then muscle hypertrophy.

 

[sreed11]

Ya rumors have been thrown around and it's possible for beginners to gain about a pound a week by adding 300-500 calories more a day to your regular diet. i on the other hand never really made steady progress like that. i'm still a beginner but the first time i started slamming like 5 protein shakes a day i went from 150-160 in like a week and a half.Then once i started eating a ****load of chicken i gained another ten pounds in two weeks haha. Then i went on NO xplode which didn't actually work for me. The opposite effect happened and i didn't really train hard at all because i was really tired. But while still "focusing" on my diet, because i wasn't burning that many calories as i usually do, i gained another ten pounds in about a month. Then i was a dumbbass and went on SUS500 and gained another ten pounds in two weeks which was about a month ago. So for me, there has never really been a steady pace of gaining. Just when i make changes i get a spurt of growth. I can honestly say i would probably be about 185 if i didn't go on SUS500. I feel i still would've made gains of about 5 pounds cause that's when i found this site and got a lot of help on diet. so there ya go. everybody's different. So in about a year i gained 42 pounds. but definitely not steadily.

 

[SteelEntity]

As already mentioned there are so many factors that cause muscle growth that there could never be a set answer. I saw an interview with Tom Prince who is a retired IFBB pro, when he was in college he went from 180- 225 in less then a year naturally with very little fat gain. If a genetically gifted person dials into his nutritional needs with a solid routine then the gains can be ridiculous.

 

[VolcomX311]

As already mentioned there are so many factors that cause muscle growth that there could never be a set answer. I saw an interview with Tom Prince who is a retired IFBB pro, when he was in college he went from 180- 225 in less then a year naturally with very little fat gain. If a genetically gifted person dials into his nutritional needs with a solid routine then the gains can be ridiculous.

Word

 

[kwyckemynd00]

As already mentioned there are so many factors that cause muscle growth that there could never be a set answer. I saw an interview with Tom Prince who is a retired IFBB pro, when he was in college he went from 180- 225 in less then a year naturally with very little fat gain. If a genetically gifted person dials into his nutritional needs with a solid routine then the gains can be ridiculous.

May be true, but don't believe anything the pros say either. They're in total ego-competition with each other and will say w/e it takes to sound as if they're the more "genetically gifted" bodybuilder.

Realize this: of all of the natural bodybuilders, there are pretty much none that are Tom Princes height and 225lbs, ripped.

Even professional bodybuilders don't want to attribute their accomplishments to the anabolic steroids--they want to say its all genetics.

And while its true that they are genetically gifted, a lot of the other stuff they say flies in stark contrast to what the careful observer will notice and smells a lot like BS E.G. Genetically gifted bodybuilders are probably just as likely to go natural than to take anabolic steroids, and the difference between a IFBB juiced up bodybuilder and a natural bodybuilder is absolutely tremendous. (Natural meaning no GH, AAS, IGF, PHs, etc). And, IMO while I believe Tom Prince may have been able to hit a 225lb natural frame, there is no way in hell he did it in one year. That's just outright a slap in the face of all the natural BBers.

 

[SteelEntity]

May be true, but don't believe anything the pros say either. They're in total ego-competition with each other and will say w/e it takes to sound as if they're the more "genetically gifted" bodybuilder.

Realize this: of all of the natural bodybuilders, there are pretty much none that are Tom Princes height and 225lbs, ripped.

Even professional bodybuilders don't want to attribute their accomplishments to the anabolic steroids--they want to say its all genetics.

And while its true that they are genetically gifted, a lot of the other stuff they say flies in stark contrast to what the careful observer will notice and smells a lot like BS E.G. Genetically gifted bodybuilders are probably just as likely to go natural than to take anabolic steroids, and the difference between a IFBB juiced up bodybuilder and a natural bodybuilder is absolutely tremendous. (Natural meaning no GH, anabolic steroids, IGF, PHs, etc). And, IMO while I believe Tom Prince may have been able to hit a 225lb natural frame, there is no way in hell he did it in one year. That's just outright a slap in the face of all the natural BBers.

Yeah true, but we don't know what compromised those 45 lbs. Maybe only 30 lbs was muscle, maybe there was some water weight. I'm not defending him but I like to keep an open mind, I believe it is possible. Additionally that year was the first year Prince was focused to put on mass. He was a collegiate swimmer and was not huge. So his room for growth potential had not even been tested. But who knows, maybe it's all bull****.

 

[John Smeton]

The question really is not specific enough. The rate of muscle gain would be quite dependent on gender, body type, size, state of development, and of course training and nutrition regimen.

agreed. How much muscle can be gained with Intense heavy training and taking in enough calories, (lets say 4k) and good sleep and heavy supplementaion for an advanced lifter that has been lifting about five years?

 

[VolcomX311]

agreed. How much muscle can be gained with Intense heavy training and taking in enough calories, (lets say 4k) and good sleep and heavy supplementaion for an advanced lifter that has been lifting about five years?

That right there is a good equation for muscle gain, but there's no exact answer for it. Couldn't tell you 10lbs or 15lbs, it really comes down to your personal genetics. Someone who works closely with you and has experience percieving how your body behaves and responds might be able to project a 1 year results projections for you. I say forget about projecting results and just keep it up. Let the mirror answer your questions :bb:

 

[John Smeton]

Dante over at Intensemuscle has an article on gained muscle withut steroids I beleive he estimates the average person can get to 250-286 on a bulk if they do things correctly

 

[VolcomX311]

Dante over at Intensemuscle has an article on gained muscle withut steroids I beleive he estimates the average person can get to 250-286 on a bulk if they do things correctly

He wrote that a veteran lifter can add 36lbs in one year naturally? Nothing average about that. Is that 36lbs period? or 36lbs of fat free body mass? I suppose adding 3lbs a month of just pure poundage isn't that hard to do, but consistently adding 3lbs of pure muscle for 12 months straight sounds a bit if'y. Some articles, actually a lot are often written as theory. I don't know how many people you would find that would agree with that.

 

[Variocam]

Yeah true, but we don't know what compromised those 45 lbs. Maybe only 30 lbs was muscle, maybe there was some water weight. I'm not defending him but I like to keep an open mind, I believe it is possible. Additionally that year was the first year Prince was focused to put on mass. He was a collegiate swimmer and was not huge. So his room for growth potential had not even been tested. But who knows, maybe it's all bull****.

more like 15 lbs of muscle and 15 lbs of water/glycogen and 15 lbs of fat.

 

[ctrivedi]

To the OP: one thing I posted earlier was a thread called "Revolution in Thinking???"

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/bulking/81290-revolution-thinking.html

that cited the article "The Truth About Bulking":

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1268956

The author Christian Thibaudeau indicated natural trainees

Under the best possible circumstances (perfect diet, training, supplementation, and recovery strategies) the average male body can manufacture between 0.25 and 0.5 pounds of dry muscle tissue per week. That is the amount your natural body chemistry will allow you to build.

Thibaudeau goes on to explain,

...it's possible to gain more weight without adding fat because when you increase your muscle size you also increase glycogen and water storage in those muscles. More muscle equals more glycogen.

A trained individual can store up to 40g of glycogen per 100g of muscle tissue. So if you're gaining ten pounds of new muscle (4545g) you'll also increase glycogen storage by around four pounds (1.8kg). So if you gain ten pounds of muscle, your scale gain will actually be closer to fourteen pounds (if you didn't gain any fat).

I should note that I'm not certain whether this is the case or not - my thread was simply posted to see how our members would respond to Thibaudeau's article which seems dismissive of the concept of bulking to accelerate muscle growth -- suggesting that the body's own limited growth potential will act as a rigid bottleneck and cannot be expanded by calorie loading.