Insulin spike to add mass

[ChrisW002]

I know the basic functions of insulin/glucagon and how to spike it in a sense. But Im having a hard time understanding the best technique to spike insulin to build muscle.

Ive seen people say they eat gummie bears before their workout to do this. To me it makes more sense to use dextrose, and then immediataly after the workout. I know timing is important so if I'm wrong please correct me and any info would be awesome thanks!

 

[PuZo]

I wouldn't focus on it. Not worth it. Just focus on proper diet/training.

 

[cisco_trooper]

I've heard or read somewhere that within an hour of the workout is fine. I think if you are spiking your blood sugar levels throughout the day you're going to find yourself packing on some unwanted fat. Focus on proper diet and keep the blood sugar experiments limited to immediately post workout.

 

[Tomahawk88]

Spike insulin post workout with dextrose and high glycemic carbs.

 

[ChrisW002]

Thanks guys! My diets already pretty good and i dont care if i get a little extra fat. Just trying to take my training and diet to the next level

 

[cumminslifter]

Spike insulin post workout with dextrose and high glycemic carbs.

this of course is utter nonsense

 

[Tomahawk88]

this of course is utter nonsense

It was 4 am but ok.

 

[cumminslifter]

It was 4 am but ok.

so you spew broscience only at 4.am.?

 

[Tomahawk88]

so you spew broscience only at 4.am.?

So what is your diet? 6 small meals a day with carbs at breakfast so you can "burn" them throughout the day?

 

[cumminslifter]

So what is your diet? 6 small meals a day with carbs at breakfast so you can "burn" them throughout the day?

haha quite the opposite. I eat twice a day. that actually sounds like a diet you would have considering your previous post.

 

[Tomahawk88]

haha quite the opposite. I eat twice a day. that actually sounds like a diet you would have considering your previous post.

So refilling glycogen post workout is broscience?

 

[cumminslifter]

So refilling glycogen post workout is broscience?

yes, you don't need high glycemic carbs to "spike" your insulin. protein alone will do this. and why do you feel the need for rapid glycogen replacement? are you competing in back to back high endurance events, such as marathons or other long distance running? your glycogen stores will refill themselves by the end of the day if you eat some sort of carbs.

 

[Tomahawk88]

yes, you don't need high glycemic carbs to "spike" your insulin. protein alone will do this. and why do you feel the need for rapid glycogen replacement? are you competing in back to back high endurance events, such as marathons or other long distance running? your glycogen stores will refill themselves by the end of the day if you eat some sort of carbs.

I am just going to leave this alone. It appears to be pointless. Different strokes for different folks(?)

 

[cumminslifter]

I am just going to leave this alone. It appears to be pointless. Different strokes for different folks(?)

im just trying to see why you think it is necessary. im judging by your response that you don't know how to put up a valid argument against my post.

 

[Tomahawk88]

im just trying to see why you think it is necessary. im judging by your response that you don't know how to put up a valid argument against my post.

To be honest I generally dont like spending my time trying to explain myself to someone who isnt probably going to listen anyway. Been here long enough to realize some times it just isnt worth it. Just a reminder you have been here a month...

yes, you don't need high glycemic carbs to "spike" your insulin. protein alone will do this. and why do you feel the need for rapid glycogen replacement? are you competing in back to back high endurance events, such as marathons or other long distance running? your glycogen stores will refill themselves by the end of the day if you eat some sort of carbs.

Yes protein will do this if you want your body to run on amino acids as fuel. I would rather create an enviroment to cause muscle growth. No I am not doing high endurance events. I am doing glycogen depleting heavy ass lifting. What I am doing is trying to get the most out of my training. Why tear my muscles up in the gym if I am not going properly nourish them post workout?(rhetorical)

 

[Montego1]

Thought this would interest you Tomahawk. Apparently most pro bodybuilders and even university research teams follow bro science har har.

Fast-digesting, high-glycemic-index carbohydrates tend to create a large surge of the anabolic hormone insulin streaming through your blood. Normally, this would not be ideal because insulin can promote fat storage, but postworkout, White says high insulin levels drive recovery nutrients such as creatine, glucose and amino acids into muscle cells to restock glycogen (to be used for your next gym session) and stymie further muscle breakdown while encouraging its growth. Case in point: University of Texas researchers discovered that subjects who consumed a carbohydrate-protein supplement following exercise had higher levels of enzymes that promote muscle glycogen and protein synthesis.

 

[ChrisW002]

Thank you both montego and tomahawk isnt there something like to make sure it low first for a bigger spike? Then the bigger spike results in more nutrients going into your muscles than if they were to replenish on their own over a few hours? I may be wrong. Ive just seen so many different ideas on this im trying to get a sense of what the current status of the best way to do this is.

And i know its not healthy to do this for a long time, and am not planning on it just trying to learn a little more so i can do it pre-show and stuff

 

[Montego1]

I normally get about 50g of carbs immedialey post workout. Blend of high and low gi carbs. Thats about the norm.

 

[Tomahawk88]

Thank you both montego and tomahawk isnt there something like to make sure it low first for a bigger spike? Then the bigger spike results in more nutrients going into your muscles than if they were to replenish on their own over a few hours? I may be wrong. Ive just seen so many different ideas on this im trying to get a sense of what the current status of the best way to do this is.

And i know its not healthy to do this for a long time, and am not planning on it just trying to learn a little more so i can do it pre-show and stuff

It should be low after lifting weights. Personally wouldnt take anything preworkout to cause a spike. Could cause you to go hypo during your workout. After X amount of time it becomes easier for carbs to become stored as fat. Of course there are ways around that but that is another story.

Nothing wrong with it. What would be bad is constantly keeping insulin levels high throughout the day.

Personally the protocol I do is a post workout shake with protein/carbs(whey iso, hydro, casein/rilose/dextrose) plus creatine mono and leucine about 20-30 minutes after I finish my workout. Then another 30-45 minutes later I fill up on a dense protein/carb meal. About an hour or so after that I have a dessert meal to cause one last spike.

 

[Montego1]

It should be low after lifting weights. Personally wouldnt take anything preworkout to cause a spike. Could cause you to go hypo during your workout. After X amount of time it becomes easier for carbs to become stored as fat. Of course there are ways around that but that is another story.

Nothing wrong with it. What would be bad is constantly keeping insulin levels high throughout the day.

This. Some low gi carbs about an hour or two pre workout would help with energy but you don't want to spike before lifting. The spike after lifting is so you push aminos and protein in the muscle. In bro terms.

 

[Tomahawk88]

This. Some low gi carbs about an hour or two pre workout would help with energy but you don't want to spike before lifting. The spike after lifting is so you push aminos and protein in the muscle. In bro terms.

Ya personally I dont do the low gi carbs pre but can understand the reasoning. It would also depend on your training and your previous days nutrition. I fill my glycogen levels post workout to the point I wont need pre workout carbs. Plus some SCIENCE suggest being low carb can amply anabolic signaling while training.

 

[bla55]

If you haven't started insulin production throughout your day (i.e. no carbs till after your workout), I really fail to see how tossing in an insulin spike (e.g. dextrose) after workout is "broscience", seeing that up until that point you were most likely highly "catabolic" with cortisol in your system.

Carb Backloading is a big proponent of a carb / protein shake post workout to cause a insulin response that will help with muscle building and better nutrient absorption post workout, and remain basically with nothing but fiber before doing so.

Guess I'm not following how that is bro-science then...

 

[cumminslifter]

To be honest I generally dont like spending my time trying to explain myself to someone who isnt probably going to listen anyway. Been here long enough to realize some times it just isnt worth it. Just a reminder you have been here a month...



Yes protein will do this if you want your body to run on amino acids as fuel. I would rather create an enviroment to cause muscle growth. No I am not doing high endurance events. I am doing glycogen depleting heavy ass lifting. What I am doing is trying to get the most out of my training. Why tear my muscles up in the gym if I am not going properly nourish them post workout?(rhetorical)

yes I may only have been HERE a month but I have been on the forums and researching for years. and if you had a meal anytime pre workout you know you are still digesting that meal, so unless you only eat protein and nothing else, you wont be running on amino acids. And btw heavy lifting does not deplete glycogen levels a significant amount so no need for rapid glycogen replenishment. also the addition of carbohydrates post workout do not further stimulate protein synthesis than protein alone.

 

[Montego1]

If you haven't started insulin production throughout your day (i.e. no carbs till after your workout), I really fail to see how tossing in an insulin spike (e.g. dextrose) after workout is "broscience", seeing that up until that point you were most likely highly "catabolic" with cortisol in your system.

Carb Backloading is a big proponent of a carb / protein shake post workout to cause a insulin response that will help with muscle building and better nutrient absorption post workout, and remain basically with nothing but fiber before doing so.

Guess I'm not following how that is bro-science then...

I was being sarcastic.

 

[ChrisW002]

Yeah im confused now. With the bro science thing and what you were being sarcastic about haha

 

[cumminslifter]

Yeah im confused now. With the bro science thing and what you were being sarcastic about haha

montego has got me confused but other than that

 

[Tomahawk88]

yes I may only have been HERE a month but I have been on the forums and researching for years. and if you had a meal anytime pre workout you know you are still digesting that meal, so unless you only eat protein and nothing else, you wont be running on amino acids. And btw heavy lifting does not deplete glycogen levels a significant amount so no need for rapid glycogen replenishment. also the addition of carbohydrates post workout do not further stimulate protein synthesis than protein alone.

You do realize forums are basically breeding grounds for broscience. If protein is your primary source of calories. Excuse me? What kind of training do you do? Personally the addition of carbs is for the replenishment of glycogen.

 

[cumminslifter]

You do realize forums are basically breeding grounds for broscience. If protein is your primary source of calories. Excuse me? What kind of training do you do? Personally the addition of carbs is for the replenishment of glycogen.

I said you will only turn to gluconeogenesis if you are not eating enough carbohydrates. I do 5x5 training, so I am not depleting my glycogen a significant amount. and yes im not arguing that carbs replenish glycogen. my argument was you do not need to "spike" insulin PWO with high glycemic carbs to rapidly replenish glycogen levels

 

[Tomahawk88]

I said you will only turn to gluconeogenesis if you are not eating enough carbohydrates. I do 5x5 training, so I am not depleting my glycogen a significant amount. and yes im not arguing that carbs replenish glycogen. my argument was you do not need to "spike" insulin PWO with high glycemic carbs to rapidly replenish glycogen levels

Well I stay ULTRA low carb preworkout. If you say so little buddy. I guess do whatever you like.

 

[ChrisW002]

Ohh oh im back on track. Yeah im not looking to do it before to replenish fastwr while im lifting. Im looking for when im done, trying to get as many nutrients back into my muscles as fast as possible to speed recovery/get more in than if i were to let it happen from a normal diet over time.

Again, i have no idea how beneficial this actually is, or at all. Trying to figure that out

So looks like low carb before (not no carb) then after a mix of high/low glyco carbs along with protien

 

[Montego1]

I was agreeing with Tomahawk. Confusion cleared.

 

[ChrisW002]

Haha ok i thought so thanks!

 

[cumminslifter]

Ohh oh im back on track. Yeah im not looking to do it before to replenish fastwr while im lifting. Im looking for when im done, trying to get as many nutrients back into my muscles as fast as possible to speed recovery/get more in than if i were to let it happen from a normal diet over time.

Again, i have no idea how beneficial this actually is, or at all. Trying to figure that out

So looks like low carb before (not no carb) then after a mix of high/low glyco carbs along with protien

protein synthesis is elevated well above baseline for 24hrs and then starts to drop after that so as long as you meet your macro requirements in that 24 hour period you are fine. no need for "rapid replenishment"

 

[cumminslifter]

Well I stay ULTRA low carb preworkout. If you say so little buddy. I guess do whatever you like.

I haha check and mate :wiggle:

 

[Tomahawk88]

I haha check and mate :wiggle:

No there just isn't a point in "debating" with someone who is convinced they can't be wrong.

 

[machorox123]

Spiking insulin post workout isn't about replenishing glycogen because unless your doing some seriously intense decathlon type training you glycogen store will have replenished by your next lifting session. Spiking insulin for OP purpose of gaining mass is good because its efficient at how it store nutrients pwo

 

[Montego1]

No there just isn't a point in "debating" with someone who is convinced they can't be wrong.

Yeah he does this in all the threads he posts in.

 

[ChrisW002]

Spiking insulin post workout isn't about replenishing glycogen because unless your doing some seriously intense decathlon type training you glycogen store will have replenished by your next lifting session. Spiking insulin for OP purpose of gaining mass is good because its efficient at how it store nutrients pwo

Wait so spike it pre workout?

Im not worried about glycogen being replenished by my next training session. Im trying to figure out how to use insulins anabolic properties to gain mass.

 

[Montego1]

Wait so spike it pre workout?

Im not worried about glycogen being replenished by my next training session. Im trying to figure out how to use insulins anabolic properties to gain mass.

No don't spike it pre workout. Post workout.

 

[cumminslifter]

No don't spike it pre workout. Post workout.

eating anything will spike insulin, so do it pre or post, or both, it dosent matter

 

[cumminslifter]

No there just isn't a point in "debating" with someone who is convinced they can't be wrong.

show me studies where you need to use high glycemic carbs pwo to spike insulin. please I would love to see them

 

[cumminslifter]

Spiking insulin post workout isn't about replenishing glycogen because unless your doing some seriously intense decathlon type training you glycogen store will have replenished by your next lifting session. Spiking insulin for OP purpose of gaining mass is good because its efficient at how it store nutrients pwo

basicly this, finally someone who knows something about nutrition

 

[Montego1]

basicly this, finally someone who knows something about nutrition

Like we said. You're hopeless have fun in your ivory tower.

 

[cumminslifter]

Like we said. You're hopeless have fun in your ivory tower.

hopeless how? that I don't follow broscience? and actually know nutrition and how it works?

 

[Montego1]

No in the fact that you think you are always right and can't accept a different point of view. I'm with Tomahawk. Have a good time. Hope you achieve your fitness goals.

 

[Tomahawk88]

show me studies where you need to use high glycemic carbs pwo to spike insulin. please I would love to see them

You don't NEED to do anything. Hell you can workout and not eat anything at all post workout. The men are talking about optimal gains. When you want to make some real gains maybe you will learn.

 

[jimbuick]

Yeah he does this in all the threads he posts in.

So do I, wanna fight about it?!

:hammer:

You don't NEED to do anything. Hell you can workout and not eat anything at all post workout. The men are talking about optimal gains. When you want to make some real gains maybe you will learn.

See bold.

Hilarious. :biglaugh:

 

[Montego1]

So do I, wanna fight about it?!

:hammer:


See bold.

Hilarious. :biglaugh:

Sure. Stick your head up your butt and fight for air

 

[jimbuick]

Sure. Stick your head up your butt and fight for air

:nono:

 

[aceroni]

If OP is trying to get big, a shake post with .5-1 g/ kg bw carbs and .5 g / kg bw pro would be ideal.
And yes the fast digesting carbs are ideal post wo for bulking.

If you can handle dairy, it wouldn't hurt. The sugars, lactose specifically, has been shown to further increase the recovery process.

Don't be like me though and try to drink a gallon every other day, the estrogenic effects can begin to show.

This isn't bro science it's basic nutrition.

OP, try to have a whole food meal within an hour after this, plenty of slower digesting carbs, healthy fats, and protein.