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The protein myth

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    Re: The protein myth


    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    and what evidence is this?
    His opinion is evidence, Josh... Keep up man.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Put up your scientific evidence or shut your stupid trap. Peer reviewed and published only.
    Hello moderator.

    Quote Originally Posted by lamonster14 View Post
    I skipped to the last page but I like to see Mr. Cooper drop some knowledge.
    Why? Ever met Josh? Lol! Coop is a great resource but don't forget to look to the other great minds around here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen100 View Post
    Well said. The problem we face is the brainwashing. We are born into the world, and since childhood we have been led to believe that truth comes from authority: if you want to heal your sickness, go to the doctor; if you want proper education, go to school; if you want justice, go to the lawyer; if you want truth, go to the media. Western society is plagued with myths and willful ignorance, which is why we are the sickest culture in the world. Instead of doing critical thinking, people just follow the sheep and repeat what they were told by someone else, who is also repeating what he was told, and so on. But if you do critical thinking and come to the conclusion that the majority of people are being duped, you are labelled a stupid fanatic. The media knows how easy it is to brianwash people. All you have to do is keep repeating the same thing over and over again, and eventually people accept it as fact.


    Bodybuilding is no exception. Twenty years ago you could pick up a magazine that said, "Every bodybuilder must have at least 70g of protein a day." Ten years later another magazine would say, "Every bodybuilder must have at least 150g protein a day." And today a typical magazine will say, "Every bodybuilder must have at least 250g protein a day." Or some magazines will say, "1g of protein per pound in bodyweight," while another magazine will say, "2g of protein per pound in bodyweight." This is hogwash. Tell these imbeciles who write these magazines to debate a gorilla.


    Let me explain how bodybuilders are duped: if you go to the supermarket and pick up a chicken breast, the label might say, "30g protein." The bodybuilder then thinks, "Ah ha, chicken is a good source of protein." But this is just a smoke screen. What the bodybuilder doesn't realize is that most of the protein in the chicken is not going to be absorbed into the muscle. Most of it will just go to waste. Animal protein is not properly digested and absorbed by humans, especially when the animal has been cooked and all the enzymes have been killed. Eating a dead, cooked animal will give you dead protein. It's so obvious. And eating animal protein on a regular basis increases the risk of disease.


    If you get your protein from nature, you are getting the best quality protein ever. Protein from nature is completely natural and has all its living enzymes. If you are able to absorb small amounts of natural protein, you will grow. Eating 200-300g of animal protein is insane. If you look at 600-pound gorillas, they are among the largest, most muscular animals in the animal kingdom and they are vegetarians. They’re all eating truckloads of chlorophyll and high amounts of fiber that’s keeping their bodies alkaline and their muscles growing. It's not rocket science.


    Peace
    Wait for it....

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen100 View Post
    Mod edit: and you're gone...
    Oops...

    Dammit easy! Now who are we going to argue with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen100 View Post
    It's true. If you are getting good quality protein provided by nature, you only need a small amount to build muscle. If, however, you get your protein from dead animals that have been cooked, most of the protein is not absorbed into the muscle. Eating high amounts of dead animal protein will just put a strain on your liver, kidneys, and digestive system.
    Soooo.... Still no evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by anarchy View Post
    h-t-t-p://m.mensfitness.com/training/fittest-guys-america

    Mac Danzig??? UFC fighter...
    Anarchy, please tell me you didn't cite a Mens Fitness interview as a source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen100 View Post
    Are you not able to do your own research? I thought every adult by now knew that eating meat regularly increased the risk of disease. If you didn't know this then I'm shocked.
    Still no evidence. Talk about avoiding the question

    Quote Originally Posted by anarchy View Post
    I posted it to show that not all vegetarians are skinny, cracked out looking little puss's... But obviously no matter what supporting articles I post, there are ignorant mofo's that will respond with responses as equally lame and relevant as a child's "I'm rubber, your glue..." I'm done with this thread, what you eat, your health, nutrition, matters not to me. And as I stated before, I eat lots of animal protein, and dairy. I was just sharing knowledge on the subject, outside the normal majority thoughts.
    Here is where you went wrong "supporting article". Interviews and sticks you find in those magazines are bogus. With articles however some can be truthful if you actually take the time to cross reference their sources. The interview is not valid as a supporting argument tho bud.

    Example: An avid drinker tells you that he's never felt better since consistently drinking 9 shots of vodka a day. Are you then going to say those of us who haven't been getting housed for breakfast have been doing it wrong because Jim Bob successfully does?

    The correct answer is, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    For the oxford study



    For the Harvard study



    And lastly the Australian one



    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S™II using Tapatalk 2
    I can't post for a few days due to studying and you scare EVERYONE away with your fancy studies...

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Also some food for thought



    The importance of distinguishing between processed and unprocessed meat when examing meat intake



    And last but not least, quite possibly the sexiest and smartest lady on the inter webs - http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the...act-or-fallac/

    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S™II using Tapatalk 2
    Thank you for sharing that link! I LOATHE Forks Over Knives and the damn cult that follows it. All based on that bull **** study!

    - Valdez
    Olympus Labs DemiGod And Rep ~ http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/253076-spaniards-coliseum-featuring.html~http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/220023-valdez-goes-back-29.html

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    All based on that bull **** study!

    - Valdez[/QUOTE]

    I think it creates debate and food for thought (pardon the pun). It also means people can discuss the issue providing various evidence rather than relying on personal bias and/or preference. JudoJosh- though I have had opposite opinion- has provided useful evidence based on studies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    His opinion is evidence, Josh... Keep up man.



    Hello moderator.



    Why? Ever met Josh? Lol! Coop is a great resource but don't forget to look to the other great minds around here.



    Wait for it....



    Oops...

    Dammit easy! Now who are we going to argue with?



    Soooo.... Still no evidence



    Anarchy, please tell me you didn't cite a Mens Fitness interview as a source.



    Still no evidence. Talk about avoiding the question



    Here is where you went wrong "supporting article". Interviews and sticks you find in those magazines are bogus. With articles however some can be truthful if you actually take the time to cross reference their sources. The interview is not valid as a supporting argument tho bud.

    Example: An avid drinker tells you that he's never felt better since consistently drinking 9 shots of vodka a day. Are you then going to say those of us who haven't been getting housed for breakfast have been doing it wrong because Jim Bob successfully does?

    The correct answer is, no.



    I can't post for a few days due to studying and you scare EVERYONE away with your fancy studies...



    Thank you for sharing that link! I LOATHE Forks Over Knives and the damn cult that follows it. All based on that bull **** study!

    - Valdez
    Either you have to much time on your hands or you have been snooking in your fellow Firefighters to chime in
    •   
       

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    Re: The protein myth


    Quote Originally Posted by Ballesteri View Post
    Either you have to much time on your hands or you have been snooking in your fellow Firefighters to chime in
    I'm unfamiliar with the term "snooking". I'm only 26 I shouldn't feel this damn old lol! I can't keep up with the lingo!!

    - Valdez
    Olympus Labs DemiGod And Rep ~ http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/253076-spaniards-coliseum-featuring.html~http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/220023-valdez-goes-back-29.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    I'm unfamiliar with the term "snooking". I'm only 26 I shouldn't feel this damn old lol! I can't keep up with the lingo!!

    - Valdez
    Lol I don't no some nonsense I made up, sneaking? snorkeling maybe, I have never seen the show and don't plan ever to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballesteri View Post

    Lol I don't no some nonsense I made up, sneaking? snorkeling maybe, I have never seen the show and don't plan ever to.
    Snooky'ed? Lol
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    Your not going to get anywhere with these people without proof, you'll just be a joke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by liftandeat View Post
    Your not going to get anywhere with these people without proof, you'll just be a joke.
    Neither are they going to get anywhere with me!!! That's why I was saying he needs to leave. I know those kinds of people and there only on here to cause trouble.... mostly idiots trying to find there place in the world.... Arguing just makes them feel important.
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    If congress can label pizza as a vegetable for school lunches, can I have them lablel eggs as plants too? I think I could cope with eggs as my only source of protein
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    If congress can label pizza as a vegetable for school lunches, can I have them lablel eggs as plants too? I think I could cope with eggs as my only source of protein

    But EasyE with all the eggplants in Florida how could you not already know about this
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    If congress can label pizza as a vegetable for school lunches, can I have them lablel eggs as plants too? I think I could cope with eggs as my only source of protein
    And vegetable oil....
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    How about fresh caught raw tuna straight from the ocean right on the boat?
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    If you cook a steak your then kill the protein? If you bake your hemp seeds does that kill your "live protein" it's ignorant your statement and completely close minded. I myself eat healthy, I eat protein from various sources, whey, protein isolate, casein, cottage cheese, milk,chicken, spinach, and yes hemp seeds. Humans evolved eating both plants and meat, just look at our ****ing teeth son! Back in golden age of bodybuilding what did Arnie, Zane, ferrigno and the likes eat? ****ing eggs, chicken, steak, potatoes and look at them the evidence is clear, they got the nutrients they needed. Eskimos eat diets of almost pure "dead animal" protein. I get what you are saying, it kinda makes sense, but its untrue. If I'm wrong ill gladly accept it and shake your hand, but show some studies, some real evidence backing up your close minded claims. I'm not smart and I'm not qualified these are my personal opinions, show me I'm wrong and ill gladly make a change. Till then
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Regarding the first paragraph, the idea isn't that small intake of protein will lead to no gains, but finding an amount that will lead to best gains and there are already active discussions about this on both sides.

    If you eat a dead animal, you are getting a delicious source of bioavailable protein, proven to build muscle. A few enzymes may be lost in the cooking process but it's better than food poisoning and parasites. Don't overcook your food and you'll still preserve some of th enzymes anyhow. Bloody steak for the win. Either way though, you are getting a delicious source of bioavailable protein, proven to build muscle.

    Whey protein has an extremely high biological value, and tops the list of proteins for this particular topic. It is not a whole food and nobody argues it to be. It's a "supplement" taken along side whole foods to achieve an amount of protein that creates the optimal conditions for muscle recovery.

    Fruits, vegetables, nuts et cetera make excellent additions to a bloody steak dinner and to a whey shake for a convenient snack but if you want to talk about bad gas, eat a handful of chia seeds and report back.

    Your entire post is off base and incorrect where building muscle is concerned. And for the record, once you rip a fruit, veggie or nut from the vine, it is dead and begins decaying immediatly. By the time you pick fruit up from the grocery store, cart it home and eat it a few days later, it has been dead for weeks. The decomposition may not be horrendous or even noticeable to the senses but many of its enzymes, phytochemicals et cetera have started to degrade.
    Best point I've heard so far
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    where can I get some "live" protein?? haha
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    Mothers tit?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen100 View Post
    The strongest animals in the world are vegetarians. The few animals that eat meat have a huge amount of stomach acid and are able to digest the meat a lot easier. Dead animal protein doesn't digest very well in humans, yet ignorant and stupid bodybuilders think that meat is good quality protein. It is not! Even a gorilla has got the intelligence to get its protein from nature. Dumb humans are like sheep. They will follow anything that suits them.
    Gorillas eat their own poop for protein too... that's all I'm saying( sorry for the old thread bump lol
    Why not zoidberg?
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    My Apologies in advance for writing a book


    Protein - all protein - is digested in the stomache and upper part of the large intestine. Here is a simplified description of the process

    Protein digestion begins in the stomach, chiefly with the action of the hydrochloric acid that is produced there, and by the enzyme called pepsin (PEP-sin). Some seven or more factors influence how fast the enzymes act on the protein. These factors include the concentration of the enzyme, that is, how much of it is present; the amount of protein food needing action; the acidity of the food and of the stomach; the temperature of the food; time; and the presence of any digestion inhibitors, such as antacids. Cooking and chewing help, but protein digestion does not begin in the mouth, as carbohydrate metabolism does. The hydrochloric acid in the stomach is required to break the protein bonds. The protein-containing foods are broken apart, separating out the protein, then the proteins are broken into their constituent parts, the amino acids.

    Protein digestion continues in the upper portion of the small intestine under the action of the pancreatic protein enzymes, trypsin (TRIP-sin) and chymotrypsin (KI-mo-trip-sin). The amino acids are absorbed by the blood capillaries of the small intestines, carried through the liver, and then go into the blood of the general circulation. Recall from our discussion of carbohydrate digestion that absorption is done by means of selectively permeable membranes of the small intestine walls, which are arranged in folds called villi.

    So, whether it is plant proteins or animal proteins - they are digested through similar pathways. Cooking helps digest proteins as it starts the process of breaking open the complex structures which makes the stomach acid be able to get at it more easily.

    The OP is correct that raw foods have more active digestive enzymes associated with them. But the idea that protein from "dead" meat is treated any differently in the stomach than a protein molecule from a "live" bean is hogwash. Eating lots of meat does require a lot of stomach acid, and some people who are low acid producers can have a hard time digesting meat proteins - and may do better on a vegan or lacto ovarian (milk and eggs) diet. Taking Betaine HCl before meals has been a standby of the bodybuilding industry since the Vince Gironda days - the Betaine improves methylation in the liver while the HCl increases stomach acid and protein digestion. One can also supplement digestive enzymes.

    Interestingly, there are arguments that the stomache has a really hard time when asked to digest complex carbs and protein at the same as it requires two different conditions (low acid for the carbs and high acid for the protein). So live foods like beans can be especially hard to digest and get the protein from.

    The OP is completely irrevocably wrong when it comes to bio-availability of proteins. Numerous documented scientific studies have been done on bio-availability ( essentially this is a scale which rates how much of the protein in the food becomes available to the body when it is ingested - with a whole egg getting a rating of 100). From the table below - you see that meat eggs and dairy top the bio-availability list - and plant sources are much lower. Basically it says if your daily require for protein was 200 grams - you would need to eat almost 500 grams of protein (from peanuts) to give you that 200 grams since the protein is only 40% available.

    Protein Source Bio-Availability Index
    Whey Protein Isolate Blends 100-159
    Whey Concentrate 104
    Whole Egg 100
    Cow's Milk 91
    Egg White 88
    Fish 83
    Beef 80
    Chicken 79
    Casein 77
    Rice 74
    Soy 59
    Wheat 54
    Beans 49
    Peanuts 43

    Bottom line - There is no right way to eat - it is a personal choice. There is no good data to support that vegans get protein more efficiently - in fact the opposite is likely too. The human body uses animal protein very effectively.
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    Oh - and Beef makes me like to "engage in coitus" ( since f*ck is apparently not allowed) - unlike Soy and this boy

    Previous
    research has focused on the beneficial effects of soy and its active
    ingredients, isoflavones. For instance, soy consumption has been associated
    with lower cardiovascular and breast cancer risks. However, the number of
    reports demonstrating adverse effects of isoflavones due to their estrogenlike
    properties has increased. We present the case of a 19-y-old type 1 diabetic but
    otherwise healthy man with sudden onset of loss of libido and erectile
    dysfunction after the ingestion of large quantities of soy-based products in a
    vegan-style diet. Blood levels of free and total testosterone and
    dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) were taken at the initial presentation for
    examination and continuously monitored up to 2 y after discontinuation of the
    vegan diet. Blood concentrations of free and total testosterone were initially
    decreased, whereas DHEA was increased. These parameters normalized within 1 y
    after cessation of the vegan diet. Normalization of testosterone and DHEA
    levels was paralleled by a constant improvement of symptoms; full sexual
    function was regained 1 y after cessation of the vegan diet. This case
    indicates that soy product consumption is related to hypogonadism and erectile
    dysfunction. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first report of a
    combination of decreased free testosterone and increased DHEA blood
    concentrations after consuming a soy-rich diet. Hence, this case emphasizes the
    impact of isoflavones in the regulation of sex hormones and associated physical
    alterations.
    Last edited by haritec; 06-27-2013 at 04:22 PM. Reason: original was censored
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    and if you want the definitive answer ( and more about protein than most of us want to know )

    yyy.jssm.org/vol3/n3/2/v3n3-2pdf.pdf

    replace the yyy with www - it wont let me posst links yet
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    Mike Tyson tried this route he became vegan, he lost 40 pounds
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    Gorillas are omnivores just like humans they like red bloody meat just like we do. I do like the hemp protein and breast milk though (kinda miss my wife being pregnant).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen100 View Post
    And those who consume more animal proteins have more sickness and disease. Eating a dead, cooked animal is not as good as eating raw protein provided by nature.
    well the inuit prove that idea wrong and have for thousands of years. care to try again?
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen100 View Post
    After an animal has been slaughtered and cooked in the oven or the grill, I think we can safely say that it's not natural.
    anthropologists have proven that eating animal based protein has allowed us to evolve to be homo sapiens in the first place.

    humans have the amazing ability to learn from their experiences and the amazing ability to not do so. reminds me of a quote from einstein, the 2 most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and human stupidity and im not so sure about helium.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen100 View Post
    The strongest animals in the world are vegetarians. The few animals that eat meat have a huge amount of stomach acid and are able to digest the meat a lot easier. Dead animal protein doesn't digest very well in humans, yet ignorant and stupid bodybuilders think that meat is good quality protein. It is not! Even a gorilla has got the intelligence to get its protein from nature. Dumb humans are like sheep. They will follow anything that suits them.
    those herbovires have different metabolisms and different digestive tracts than we do. they do not require essential amino acids like homo sapiens. so you are not comparing the same things.

    the only thing i can even come close to agreeing with you is that animal meat does not digest as well in our bodies as it would in a carnivore. but guess what, we are not carnivores. we are omnivores. so again not a valid argument.

    and how is animal protein not natural. i have not ready past this post yet but you keep saying its not and i have not read why its not. you have made the claims, can you back them up with science from peer reviewed research journals?
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by asooneyeonig View Post
    those herbovires have different metabolisms and different digestive tracts than we do. they do not require essential amino acids like homo sapiens. so you are not comparing the same things.

    the only thing i can even come close to agreeing with you is that animal meat does not digest as well in our bodies as it would in a carnivore. but guess what, we are not carnivores. we are omnivores. so again not a valid argument.

    and how is animal protein not natural. i have not ready past this post yet but you keep saying its not and i have not read why its not. you have made the claims, can you back them up with science from peer reviewed research journals?
    We could get biblical if anyone here is religious and believes the bible lol... read Genesis chapter 9 verses 1-3... just sayin
    Why not zoidberg?
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    Quote Originally Posted by macdady View Post
    We could get biblical if anyone here is religious and believes the bible lol... read Genesis chapter 9 verses 1-3... just sayin
    we could, shall we involve all religions? or should we just stick to facts?
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by asooneyeonig View Post
    we could, shall we involve all religions? or should we just stick to facts?
    Evolution isn't fact either mister its called the "the theory of evolution" for a reason lol... I'm not here to start a argument buddy just throwing out another view point on meat eating.
    Why not zoidberg?
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    Quote Originally Posted by macdady View Post
    Evolution isn't fact either mister its called the "the theory of evolution" for a reason lol... I'm not here to start a argument buddy just throwing out another view point on meat eating.
    http://ncse.com/evolution/education/...cientific-work
    http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/howscienceworks_19
    http://thehappyscientist.com/study-u...ory-become-law

    gravity is a theory, it is also a fact it exists. try again. this is not argument, it is facts. science FTW.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Dude you have your beliefs I have mine. I'm not trying g to start a argument. Its just another view is all. We could go back and forth all day with god this random explosion that but its not worth the time... I've looked into evolution but don't find anything that I agree with. And yes I believe in science, I'm not crazy, but I believe in god. Just put your computer sword away calm down and go about your friendly typing. Like I said just another view point no need to get all twisted up about it
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    thats the problem, i wasnt stating a belief. i was stating a fact. you cant compare facts with beliefs/opinions.

    to define them so there is no missunderstanding.


    fact
    noun
    1.something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
    2.something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.



    be·lief
    noun
    1.something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
    2.confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
    3.confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
    4.a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.


    o·pin·ion
    noun
    1.a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
    2.a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.


    as you can see, facts i am stating are not just viewed but are the truths of things accepted by all and are not up for debate. opinion and beliefs by definition can be proven incorrect with facts. i have not even brought up my beliefs and will state that they are such when i do.

    i post this for the benefit of others that may be reading this, not just for any particular person.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    No, it's not proven. At the end of Darwin's book of theory of evolution, he lists a number of things that would totally derail the theory to begin with. You should search for that list. Granted, you won't find that list on the internet.

    Gravity isn't a theory. It's a force in nature, along with the strong & weak nuclear forces and electromagnetic force. That's about like saying atmospheric wind is a theory, lol.

    Science is a constantly evolving in itself, which means what is "fact" or "accepted theory" or even "accepted fact" as in your case, will be bad information tomorrow. To say that we as humans, who in fact don't know everything there is to know about everything, can declare something as truth and fact is arrogant and ignorant and will prove itself in time that we are such. And as a matter of "fact", the only thing we can take to the bank is that we dont know everything and will constantly be revising what we call truth & fact, lol. To be fair, the individual who brought up the book of Genesis is in fact referring back to the most reliable and complete form of historical records that we have. Just know that if you don't believe Genesis chapter 9, then you should probably not believe any historical reference in the Bible, which means you should also believe nothing that our current historians talk about as "history".

    Take the scientific articles with a grain of salt, please. Otherwise you'll fall victim of "knowledge" that will be laughed at in the future.
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    Thank you for that fueledpassion. I'm not exactly a wordsmith lol that was nicely said... and all I was trying to do was bring something else to the table about us not being designed to eat meat. Not start a internet war
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    another article on law vs theory specifically pointed towards gravity.

    http://thehappyscientist.com/science...-theory-or-law

    many people truly do not understand what law, theory, and hypothesis is in the usage of science. that is why i posted earlier [links to] definitions of those items to clarify so that the above post need not be posted at all. please refer to those links for the meaning of theory and law as used in my previous posts. if you do not understand please refer to those links again for the meaning of theory and law as used in my previous posts.
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    atmospheric wind, which can also be referenced as atmospheric pressure and dynamics is a theory. here is some research on such.

    http://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/13/10...1039-2013.html
    http://www.opticsinfobase.org/ao/abstract.cfm?id=39756

    if you reference the links i provided earlier on the definition of theory as used in science you will see you analogy was not as effective as you think it was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by macdady View Post
    Thank you for that fueledpassion. I'm not exactly a wordsmith lol that was nicely said... and all I was trying to do was bring something else to the table about us not being designed to eat meat. Not start a internet war
    feel free to bring assumptions, opinions, beliefs, and even facts to the discussion. just realize that assumptions, opinions, and beliefs are not necessarily based upon fact. they can be used to allow a person to think of things and in ways that they have not before which is healthy in discussion. but in the end, especially during a discussion about truths, facts win out. that is why they are facts.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Wow your really going all out? Why is it that throughout this entire thread there is talk of evolution and no one has argued or chastised anyone yet when one person says something about the bible you go crazy? I smell a internet bully lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by asooneyeonig View Post
    feel free to bring assumptions, opinions, beliefs, and even facts to the discussion. just realize that assumptions, opinions, and beliefs are not necessarily based upon fact. they can be used to allow a person to think of things and in ways that they have not before which is healthy in discussion. but in the end, especially during a discussion about truths, facts win out. that is why they are facts.
    The problem with calling evolution fact rather than a strongly documented theory is that there is no empirical way to duplicate it and show that overall an organism as a species will change to fit its environment better. The process is too long and slow. Is there evidence that makes it look like it happened? yes, and it very likely did. But it isn't provable to scientific standards due to that timeframe issue.
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    Haha do you know how many scientists actually do not believe evolution to be true? Probably more than you think. Evolution is not fact you cannot prove evolution just the same as I cannot physically prove there is a god. But if you think that the earth and every delicate thing about it and even humans came about by chance I don't get that? And another thing. The big bang is funny because all I have to say is god is the one who put those gases in the air in order for it to happen and you can't prove otherwise lol
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