Muscle without fat?

[JudoJosh]

Oh, I agree. Its certainly possible to re-comp going the wrong way. But I think you would have to be a total idiot to do it.

You would be surprised, it is actually quite often you will find someone trying to diet down to loose weight and end up loosing muscle & gaining fat while eating below maintenance. The majority people in society view their weight as a scale number and dont take into account body composition or even understand the very basic fundamentals of nutrition.

Somehow its seems like I keep getting into these theoretical discussions which really don't exist amongst bodybuilders and even general fitness enthusiasts. I dont think anyone was considering eating solely carbohydrates as their diet.

I think you are getting your threads mixed up. That was a separate discussion where I used that to illustrate a point. No one in this thread mentions a diet of soley one macro-nutrient

That is why I specified in my reply "assuming the person is eating adequate protein and fat......" a high GI carb will not magically allow for a net positive storage of bodyfat. My main point is that carb source is really not super critical in a calorie deficit. *disclaimer - this does not mean I endorse eating pop rocks and cotton candy as a primary carb source while dieting.

That may be true if your only concern is how you look but there is a lot more to life then getting "ripped" my friend. You need to realize not everyone hear has the goals or aspirations of getting on a stage and competing or wants "striations in their ass". Yes one can loose weight or get cut or get big eating all sorts of junk food but "cut & ripped" doesnt necessarily equal healthy and personally my health is far more important than my looks.

At the end of the day calories in vs calories out is what determines weight gain while your macro ratios will determine body composition and the selection of your food will determine your health. Why limit yourself when you can have it all? Why eat nutrient void food? just cuz it taste good?

But whatever enjoy your cakes and pies and striations in your ass.. more power to you bud! My dinner tonight was steak, potatoes and avocado and I am pretty satisfied myself. I think I am gonna make some banana custard for dessert (coconut milk, bananas & eggs)

[AustrianOakJr]

You would be surprised, it is actually quite often you will find someone trying to diet down to loose weight and end up loosing muscle & gaining fat while eating below maintenance. The majority people in society view their weight as a scale number and dont take into account body composition or even understand the very basic fundamentals of nutrition.

Well, I am new to AM forums. I spend much of my time in the contest prep section on bodybuilding.com. In that forum everyone is a bodybuilder so certain things are almost assumed.

That may be true if your only concern is how you look but there is a lot more to life then getting "ripped" my friend. You need to realize not everyone hear has the goals or aspirations of getting on a stage and competing or wants "striations in their ass". Yes one can loose weight or get cut or get big eating all sorts of junk food but "cut & ripped" doesnt necessarily equal healthy and personally my health is far more important than my looks.

At the end of the day calories in vs calories out is what determines weight gain while your macro ratios will determine body composition and the selection of your food will determine your health. Why limit yourself when you can have it all? Why eat nutrient void food? just cuz it taste good?

But whatever enjoy your cakes and pies and striations in your ass.. more power to you bud! My dinner tonight was steak, potatoes and avocado and I am pretty satisfied myself. I think I am gonna make some banana custard for dessert (coconut milk, bananas & eggs)

Actually, I completely agree with you. Despite my mission to "beat back the bro" and drive home the point that eating "clean" is not necessary, my diet is very healthy. I am not an over-the-top junk food nut. But I do regularly eat foods not deemed "clean" by the brethren. Breakfast was eggs, high fiber flat-out, and a bowl of oats. Lunch was grilled chicken, rice and corn. PWO I had a whey sludge cake. Dinner tonight was a lean cheesburger on a high-fiber flat bun and a bowl of organic vegetable barley soup. And then one more pumpkin whey sludge cake just before bed......just to get some dirty carbs in right before bed. Im in a slight caloric deficit right now as im trying to trim up a smidge. So, obviously I am not a health food freak, but im not a total junk nut either. I am pretty moderate in my diet and consider myself healthier than 99.9% of the general population. And quite honestly I think this is a great place to be. I think "health nuts" get way too obsessed. And obviously people who eat crap all the time have bigger issues. So, IMOP moderation is key.

My mistake in assuming everyone wants striations in their ass. Wait, wut??? Seriously? J/K

And to answer your question "why eat nutrient void foods"? YES....because it tastes good! There is nothing wrong with enjoying your food. And eating crap in moderation will not harm you in any significant way assuming most of your diet is based in solid, whole foods rich in micro-nutrients and phyto-nutrients. So eat yer cake, ok?

[JudoJosh]

Well, I am new to AM forums. I spend much of my time in the contest prep section on bodybuilding.com. In that forum everyone is a bodybuilder so certain things are almost assumed.

I am not a member of BB.com and never have been so I am sure if I went there I would encounter debates left in right..

AM is a great place with some very intelligent people. You might run into a couple "broscience" guys here and there but quite a few people here actually know what they are talking about.

Actually, I completely agree with you. Despite my mission to "beat back the bro" and drive home the point that eating "clean" is not necessary, my diet is very healthy. I am not an over-the-top junk food nut. But I do regularly eat foods not deemed "clean" by the brethren.

My biggest problem here is the term "clean" is extremely subjective.. a lot of different people have a their own definition as what "clean" is.. Hell the other day I had a bowl of oatmeal at a family event (because I haven't had one in such a long time) and felt guilty and was pissed cuz I ate a dirty food! LOL.. Then I come home and have jalapeño peppers filled with cream cheese and wrapped with bacon and I consider that "healthy eating" .. Point being healthy for you isn't the same for someone else. When I say healthy I am not talking about grilled skinless chicken breast and steamed broccoli. Most likely your "bad" foods that you are eating are foods I consider healthy and your healthy foods I consider a waste of calories. But this is just my opinion and my goal isn't to project my food selection onto anyone but open their mind to challenging the traditional neutrino dogmas that surround the fitness community.

Breakfast was eggs, high fiber flat-out, and a bowl of oats. Lunch was grilled chicken, rice and corn. PWO I had a whey sludge cake. Dinner tonight was a lean cheesburger on a high-fiber flat bun and a bowl of organic vegetable barley soup. And then one more pumpkin whey sludge cake just before bed......just to get some dirty carbs in right before bed. Im in a slight caloric deficit right now as im trying to trim up a smidge. So, obviously I am not a health food freak, but im not a total junk nut either. I am pretty moderate in my diet and consider myself healthier than 99.9% of the general population. And quite honestly I think this is a great place to be. I think "health nuts" get way too obsessed. And obviously people who eat crap all the time have bigger issues. So, IMOP moderation is key.

I wouldn't classify them as "health nuts" but I think a lot of people in the fitness circle tend to try and over complicate things more than they need to be. Stressing over such minor details..

BTW what is this "sludge cake" you speak of?

I used to make this whey & peanut butter cake about a year ago that was my go to favorite snack but since I cut peanut butter out of my diet I don't really eat it as much. I tried it once with almond butter but it wasn't the same. However I did see a jar of homemade cashew butter at the Amish market the other day and now that you mention sludge cake I think I might try and make mine with cashew butter and see how it comes out. But anyway what is your sludge cake?

And to answer your question "why eat nutrient void foods"? YES....because it tastes good! There is nothing wrong with enjoying your food. And eating crap in moderation will not harm you in any significant way assuming most of your diet is based in solid, whole foods rich in micro-nutrients and phyto-nutrients. So eat yer cake, ok?

Oh I do enjoy my food.. very much so

[mattrag]

I agree. Clean is very subjective. Some ppl consider whole wheat foods clean but if you read wheat belly or read up on auto inflammatory diseases and causes you will find that wheat is definitely no clean for a lot of ppl. While I eat loads of fats. None of it comes out of a box. I also don't cook with any oils other than meat fats or coconut oils. Ill use lard or cook my veggies with meat fats. I'll fry up sweet potatoes in coconut oils.
Now does this give best body comp? Not really but I just came off two auto immune diseases I got from eating "clean" on what most consider clean. Brown rice, whole wheat only, oats, and NO fats other than what was on my meats.
I know loads of bodybuilders who will diet till game day eating all of the said above. (not personally)
I also enjoy eating but I just can't eat certain things. But I've kept reasonably good bodycomp while not counting calories and eating pretty much whatever I want. Most ppl on this forum I feel aim for being strong, being as lean as possible, many use a few aesthetic enhancers but there are a lot who don't. Also, many of the members don't live the bodybuilding life. Just trying to incorporate all we can to be strong, look great and live forever lol.

I could be completely wrong. But like everything in the Internet take it with a grain of salt, and don't take it personally.

[OrganicShadow]

I hear you and agree. When I say clean my aim is to avoid anything processed. Dairy, wheat, lards, etc.

I do use oils, but only nut oils and sesame is my choice. Ever nut butters are kinda ehh.
I cant eat all organic meats, I just dont make that kind of money. But ground meats just dont fly with me. Most of my protein comes from fish maybe some chicken and lean red meats. From time to time pork.
Brown rice, yams, black beans, steel cut oats. Thats about it for carbs.
I stick to green, fibrous vegetables. I steer away from sugary ones like carrots and squash. cauliflower, onions, sharlottes are acceptable.
I usually have about 1 serving of fruits in my diet. Apples, bananas, grapefruit, blueberries. I love em though, usually thats what I crave.

[AustrianOakJr]

Good discussion guys. Yes, I recognize that there is more to diet than looking good in posing trunks. For me, thats where I am at though. I have read a bit on the benefits of eating organic/whole foods and the detriments of eating processed food and I think there is some merit to it. And I do very well at INCORPORATING it into my diet. However, I just dont believe its worth going out of my way to avoid certain foods all the time because I dont think the negatives outway the inconvenience. I am open to advice on it though....perhaps im wrong.

My diet consists of quite a few "processed" foods bc its pretty darn hard to avoid "processing" altogether. And in reality.....what is processing anyways? I think its important to qualify that statement because there is certain processing that might be considered harmful....preservatives, sugar alcohols,etc. But fast cooked oats vs. steel cut? Well, technically they are both processed.....one more than the other.....but why avoid either? Perhaps some might have a specific reaction but beyond that??? Almond butter is processed.....honey is processed....it doesnt mean anything specifically to "process" foods. And chances are if you are buying a whole food, you are bringing it home and 'processing' it anyways, right?

. But anyway what is your sludge cake?

Well, you would probably find it an abomination to "clean" eating because pancake mix is the main ingredient. But DANG its sooo good. IMOP, a great way to get your carbs and protein with little fat. I eat several of these per week. Check out the link.
http://www.3dmusclejourney.com/recipes-sludge-cake.php

[JudoJosh]

Good discussion guys. Yes, I recognize that there is more to diet than looking good in posing trunks. For me, thats where I am at though. I have read a bit on the benefits of eating organic/whole foods and the detriments of eating processed food and I think there is some merit to it. And I do very well at INCORPORATING it into my diet. However, I just dont believe its worth going out of my way to avoid certain foods all the time because I dont think the negatives outway the inconvenience. I am open to advice on it though....perhaps im wrong.

If you are truly open to learning and have the time buy the book "Paleo Diet" and give it a read. That and omnivore dilemma were life changing books for me. Organic food isnt the be all end all either. Recent law changes have blurred the term orgranic meaning just cuz it says organic it doesnt mean it really is. A majority of my food is purchased from local farms but not everything as not everything is able to grown or raised locally.

[mattrag]

If you are truly open to learning and have the time buy the book "Paleo Diet" and give it a read. That and omnivore dilemma were life changing books for me. Organic food isnt the be all end all either. Recent law changes have blurred the term orgranic meaning just cuz it says organic it doesnt mean it really is. A majority of my food is purchased from local farms but not everything as not everything is able to grown or raised locally.

Yea. That book is great. I recommend reading it for sure.

[AustrianOakJr]

If you are truly open to learning and have the time buy the book "Paleo Diet" and give it a read. That and omnivore dilemma were life changing books for me. Organic food isnt the be all end all either. Recent law changes have blurred the term orgranic meaning just cuz it says organic it doesnt mean it really is. A majority of my food is purchased from local farms but not everything as not everything is able to grown or raised locally.

I am actually reading the Omnivores Dilemma right now. Im only into it about 3 chapters and im enjoying it so far. Afterwards, ill check out the Paleo diet. Thanks for the "advices" (as Arnold would say).

[jblift]

I would just keep your normal diet, but add a little bit to each meal. Then, get a mass builder shake to add some cals. I personally had amazing results with ultimate nutrition isomass extreme.

[Smith1108]

I just eat 200 to 300 over maintenance and make small adjustments as I go adding or lowering cals it takes a long tome to lean bulk but in the long run it is a lot better than having to burn a lot of fat on a cut... I also stick to low GI foods except I may have like some starchy carbs for breakfast

[Iron Warrior]

vitamin Tren = muscle w/out fat

Build slowly if you don't want to go that route. Shoot for 2 pounds a month, this is 24 pound in 1 year so keep that number in mind as you go along. Eat clean for better results.

[OrganicShadow]

I am actually reading the Omnivores Dilemma right now. Im only into it about 3 chapters and im enjoying it so far. Afterwards, ill check out the Paleo diet. Thanks for the "advices" (as Arnold would say).

I The Omnivore's Dilemma too. Really changed my perspective on things. Especially the fallacies that are the USDA and FDA

[AustrianOakJr]

Especially the fallacies that are the USDA and FDA

Oh please....a total joke.

[MrL]

Im 6 feet tall and weigh 160 my goal for now is to hit two hundred can I do this without putting on fat or do I have to bulk then strip I like my six pack alot so im
Hoping that you guys have some good news

Personally i prefer to gain as much mass as possible when bulking as that way i know that im providing enough nutrients to grow to my full potential. Id be scared to lean bulk incase i was hindering gains by not having enough nutrients.

If you logically plan your year when to bulk and when to cut then your abs can be on show during the summer months and only covered up during the winter, this seems the best option to me. Living in Wales, summer doesnt exist for me so i dont have to worry about my abs too much lol

[AustrianOakJr]

Personally i prefer to gain as much mass as possible when bulking as that way i know that im providing enough nutrients to grow to my full potential. Id be scared to lean bulk incase i was hindering gains by not having enough nutrients.

If you logically plan your year when to bulk and when to cut then your abs can be on show during the summer months and only covered up during the winter, this seems the best option to me. Living in Wales, summer doesnt exist for me so i dont have to worry about my abs too much lol

For an ecto morph who has trouble putting on weight this is not a bad way to go. But for most people, bodyfat would be excessive if you went about bulking in a no-holds-barred type of way. Personally, I could be 10 lbs heavier by the end of the week if I chose to eat anything and everything I wanted. If you are putting on excessive bodyfat, then you are not maximizing your gains this way because the cut at the end of the bulk would have to be so drastic you would lose much of the muscle you gained on your bulk. For most natural bodybuilders, a very slow rate of gain is the optimal way to put on muscle.

[gnc_gymrat]

In high school I was 120 I'm 18 and just graduated last year. I've been working out seriously for 3 years ever since I was told that I was a skinny bitch. I took the occasional protein shake, nitric oxide pills, creatine etc. But when I took them I noticed significant gains in mass. Not rip. So I decided to just take the occasional shake and creatine, then keep working out everyday I could fit a serious workout... I haven't seen much gain bcuz I look at myself in the mirror everyday, but all my friends are like wow... U gained a **** ton! Your ripped or your in damn good shape. I just now started eating right. And I've been hovering At 150 to say the least I'm doing damn good bcuz I was a skinny bitch before.
So bottom line if u want to gain muscle without fat... You have to ea

[gnc_gymrat]

In high school I was 120 I'm 18 and just graduated last year. I've been working out seriously for 3 years ever since I was told that I was a skinny bitch. I took the occasional protein shake, nitric oxide pills, creatine etc. But when I took them I noticed significant gains in mass. Not rip. So I decided to just take the occasional shake and creatine, then keep working out everyday I could fit a serious workout... I haven't seen much gain bcuz I look at myself in the mirror everyday, but all my friends are like wow... U gained a **** ton! Your ripped or your in damn good shape. I just now started eating right. And I've been hovering At 150 to say the least I'm doing damn good bcuz I was a skinny bitch before.
So bottom line if u want to gain muscle without fat... You have to eat right. Add intensity through every workout and fin the regimen that fits you. Make sure u get alot of amino acids in your diet bcuz a specific amount u can only workout out fir so long. U want to be intense and fierce in the gym. Even though u might not be lifting as much as everyone else just work on your personal gain. I weigh 150 I'm 5'11 and I can bench 205. Squat 275. And deadlift 350. Before I could barely do 125 for bench. 175 for squat. And 225 for deadlift... I was weak but now I'm still not happy till my bench is over 250 at least. So one of the challenges as a person trying to build muscle mass naturally without fat is criticism. U have to be able to listen to the negative people and take that judgment from other people and throw that motivation into your workout. Hit it hard in the weightroom. And get the hell out of there so u have time to recover!!! Eat right and get rest!

[MrL]

For an ecto morph who has trouble putting on weight this is not a bad way to go. But for most people, bodyfat would be excessive if you went about bulking in a no-holds-barred type of way. Personally, I could be 10 lbs heavier by the end of the week if I chose to eat anything and everything I wanted. If you are putting on excessive bodyfat, then you are not maximizing your gains this way because the cut at the end of the bulk would have to be so drastic you would lose much of the muscle you gained on your bulk. For most natural bodybuilders, a very slow rate of gain is the optimal way to put on muscle.

Too be honest you make a fair point as i did gain an excessive amount of fat during my last bulk (ive got pics showing my progress on my profile page)

I consider myself an ectomorph and i didnt feel i could be too picky with food as i struggled to consume enough calories if i stuck to clean foods. However my new bulk plan is alot better structured this time and will be roughly 500-1000 surplus cals. I could cut this amount for leaner gains but for me this is what i feel comfortable consuming.

I understand what your saying about losing muscle whilst cutting naturally but i used tren during my last cycle whilst cutting and felt like i maintained alot of the muscle that i gained because of it.