Product questions for my upcoming cut...

houseman

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Hey guys,

Never tried your products before but I am definitely curious.

I am about to embark on a 6 week cutter with SD. Dosing unplanned as of yet until I assess tolerance required.

I'm about 275 (actually 282 right now but I had a refeed yesterday :D) and about 22% BF. I had planned to run Usnic Acid with my SD but I am not sold just yet. Regardless of the UA, I want to know if the following would be good addition with the SD:

Leptigen Rebirth
Phenogen

I am not sure on the diet I plan to follow to be honest. I am currently doing a modified UD2 program (diet without the depletion training) to assess my tolerance for the extreme dieting. I can handle it. I have also done 40/40/20 split with good success (no refeeds).

So I guess my question is... will be supplements be a good addition with the SD. And the next part of the question is.. if they are... which diet do we believe would be more beneficial?

Thanks guys!
 
prolangtum

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I see Loki is reading this...I was going to answer, but, Ill default to him since he has experience with UD2.
 

houseman

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I see Loki is reading this...I was going to answer, but, Ill default to him since he has experience with UD2.
Well, I haven't decided on a diet just yet.

I could very well do a 40/40/20 split. I think in practice I am leaning towards the 40/40/20 because of the nutrient partioning of the SD but I am still not sure.

Not looking for a magic bullet... just the most effective bullet to aid my training/nutritional efforts :D

Thanks for stopping in. I appreciate it.
 

Loki

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Definitely. At the bodyfat level Leptigen Rebirth and Phenogen are far and away the best of our offerings for your given situation and goals.

I am not sure on the diet I plan to follow to be honest. I am currently doing a modified UD2 program (diet without the depletion training) to assess my tolerance for the extreme dieting. I can handle it. I have also done 40/40/20 split with good success (no refeeds).

So I guess my question is... will be supplements be a good addition with the SD. And the next part of the question is.. if they are... which diet do we believe would be more beneficial?
Personally, I would prefer to see you do something like this (this is assuming you want to lose fat as quickly as possible):

Day 1: Full-body depletion work-out (just like the UD 2.0)
Day 2: Full-body depletion work-out (completes glycogen depletion)

After this: simply stay depleted. The Superdrol will significantly halt proteolysis and catabolism, and improve nutrient partitioning and deposition. So my advise would be to get depleted first (which as you are aware will increase fatty-acid oxidition rates both at rest and during exercise). Then for your diet I would try to hit a slightly higher calorie amount than the UD 2.0 low-calorie days (increase dietary fat slightly), and just continue like this. Once a week, after a max-rep workout, I would have one modest carb-up of 150g of low-GI (oatmeal &/or sweet potatoes along with one apple is what I strongly recommend for the entirety of the meal) and then return right back into dieting at 50g of carbs/day. I follow a split similar to this:

Day 3: a.m. or early afternoon - perform HIIT cardio to the best of your ability, either bike, running, or elliptical sprints. I know your trained state probably isn't very good right now, so make sure you give yourself full recovery in between your intervals. Then, if able, perform 20 mins. of low-intensity cardio either directly after the sprints or later in the evening.

Day 4: go to the gym, and do a full-body HST workout with weights for your 5RM. Do 1-2 working sets per bodypart/muscle group. Do not train to concentric failure on any lift--kind of like the power-workout. Again, perform aerobic cardio either directly after the workout or later that evening if you have enough energy.

Day 5: 30-45 mins. of low-intensity cardio

Day 6: repeat Day 4, employ mini-carb-up post-workout

Day 7: repeat Day 3

Day 8: Off/Rest

Day 9: repeat Day 5

Day 10: repeat Day 4, no carb-up

Day 11: repeat Day 5

Day 12: repeat Day 4, carb-up

etc.


And definitely get and use Enova oil for your fat intake on all those low-carb days, as it will help you immensely and will be additionally amino-acid (and thus, muscle)-sparing.
 

houseman

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Definitely. At the bodyfat level Leptigen Rebirth and Phenogen are far and away the best of our offerings for your given situation and goals.



Personally, I would prefer to see you do something like this (this is assuming you want to lose fat as quickly as possible):

Day 1: Full-body depletion work-out (just like the UD 2.0)
Day 2: Full-body depletion work-out (completes glycogen depletion)

After this: simply stay depleted. The Superdrol will significantly halt proteolysis and catabolism, and improve nutrient partitioning and deposition. So my advise would be to get depleted first (which as you are aware will increase fatty-acid oxidition rates both at rest and during exercise). Then for your diet I would try to hit a slightly higher calorie amount than the UD 2.0 low-calorie days (increase dietary fat slightly), and just continue like this. Once a week, after a max-rep workout, I would have one modest carb-up of 150g of low-GI (oatmeal &/or sweet potatoes along with one apple is what I strongly recommend for the entirety of the meal) and then return right back into dieting at 50g of carbs/day. I follow a split similar to this:

Day 3: a.m. or early afternoon - perform HIIT cardio to the best of your ability, either bike, running, or elliptical sprints. I know your trained state probably isn't very good right now, so make sure you give yourself full recovery in between your intervals. Then, if able, perform 20 mins. of low-intensity cardio either directly after the sprints or later in the evening.

Day 4: go to the gym, and do a full-body HST workout with weights for your 5RM. Do 1-2 working sets per bodypart/muscle group. Do not train to concentric failure on any lift--kind of like the power-workout. Again, perform aerobic cardio either directly after the workout or later that evening if you have enough energy.

Day 5: 30-45 mins. of low-intensity cardio

Day 6: repeat Day 4, employ mini-carb-up post-workout

Day 7: repeat Day 3

Day 8: Off/Rest

Day 9: repeat Day 5

Day 10: repeat Day 4, no carb-up

Day 11: repeat Day 5

Day 12: repeat Day 4, carb-up

etc.


And definitely get and use Enova oil for your fat intake on all those low-carb days, as it will help you immensely and will be additionally amino-acid (and thus, muscle)-sparing.
Thanks Loki!

I'm going to to a full write up and detailed plan on what you just suggested to see how it looks. Mind if I PM you for tweaking before posting the final program here?

Also... when would the Leptigen and Phenogen fall in line or does it truly matter?

One additional point: I train at night and have the ability to do cardio (got my own bike, plus I can do sprints out doors) morning and night as well.

Thanks again. Much appreciated!
 

Loki

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I'm going to to a full write up and detailed plan on what you just suggested to see how it looks. Mind if I PM you for tweaking before posting the final program here?
Yeah, certainly.

Also... when would the Leptigen and Phenogen fall in line or does it truly matter?
Not understanding you here. Do you mean like, daily dosing times?
 
Dwight Schrute

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I disagree. I believe at your bf% that a 40/40/20 would be much more beneficial.

IMO starting a diet tailored for the advanced stages (or last stages of pre contest dieting) is unwise.
 

Loki

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I disagree. I believe at your bf% that a 40/40/20 would be much more beneficial.

IMO starting a diet tailored for the advanced stages (or last stages of pre contest dieting) is unwise.
He said he was already going to do a UD 2.0-esque routine, so I assumed he naturally wanted to go dramatic. That does not mean I advocate drastic dieting, but since he proposed the framework I just wanted to give him an ideal based on the type of intensive weight loss regime he was looking for.


I should also add that--while, again, not really my practical choice of strategies for weight loss-- when one is a.) overweight, and b.) has a very good drug-supplement arsenal, one can get away with fairly drastic dietary alterations and see immense improvements in body composition. If he was doing this drug-free I would never have even come close to recommending this.
 

houseman

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I disagree. I believe at your bf% that a 40/40/20 would be much more beneficial.

IMO starting a diet tailored for the advanced stages (or last stages of pre contest dieting) is unwise.
I'm open to suggestions :)

I've done both and gotten decent results in the past.

This is what I am looking for... a debate on the two approaches.

One thing I do somewhat like (although, I hate the day after) with a UD2 style diet is the refeed. For some reason, mentally it just keeps me "sane". 40/40/20.. come weekends, I am LOOKING for something to eat because of sheer boredom or whatever.

Not discplined? Perhaps. It's just a mental thing... when I am not at work, training or out and doing something... then I am bored and when I am bored I'll look for something to snack on which is why the refeed helps immensly.

However, as I said.. I am not sold (yet) on any one diet strategy.
 
Dwight Schrute

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He said he was leaning towards a 40/40/20 because of his upcomgin use of SD. I don't have any problem with your recommendations since you assumed he was already going the UD2 route. I was just stating at his bf% UD2 is a wasted effort IMO. Its simply is overkill and another example of people making it much more complicated than it has to be. Its something that happens all to often when dieting IMO.
 

houseman

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He said he was already going to do a UD 2.0-esque routine, so I assumed he naturally wanted to go dramatic. That does not mean I advocate drastic dieting, but since he proposed the framework I just wanted to give him an ideal based on the type of intensive weight loss regime he was looking for.
I should comment. I said I was currently doing s UD2 style dieting without the actual training. I was doing the dieting part so that I could assess if I could mentally handle the extreme caloric restrictions. I am not actually doing a full blown UD2 program right now.

Hope that clarifies things?
 

Loki

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Yes. Does it even matter in the least?
As long as you take Rebirth 45-60 minutes before meals and Phenogen with your meals, it really doesn't matter to any significant degree how you time the dosings during the actual course of the day.
 

Loki

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I should comment. I said I was currently doing s UD2 style dieting without the actual training. I was doing the dieting part so that I could assess if I could mentally handle the extreme caloric restrictions. I am not actually doing a full blown UD2 program right now.

Hope that clarifies things?
Yeah, but you still want to do the extreme dieting aspect of it correct? Such was the goal of my recommendation, to give you the best "extreme" androgen-assisted diet routine for quick weight loss and muscle/strength preservation.
 
Dwight Schrute

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I'm open to suggestions :)

I've done both and gotten decent results in the past.

This is what I am looking for... a debate on the two approaches.

One thing I do somewhat like (although, I hate the day after) with a UD2 style diet is the refeed. For some reason, mentally it just keeps me "sane". 40/40/20.. come weekends, I am LOOKING for something to eat because of sheer boredom or whatever.

Not discplined? Perhaps. It's just a mental thing... when I am not at work, training or out and doing something... then I am bored and when I am bored I'll look for something to snack on which is why the refeed helps immensly.

However, as I said.. I am not sold (yet) on any one diet strategy.

Its not really a debatable issue. You have to state what goals you want to achieve to really debate which would be more advantageous. A 40/40/20 doesn't remain a 40/40/20 if you goals are to achieve low bf%. There will always be changes in the macro profiles with every diet.

If you are just looking to cut fat to maybe mid teens then UD2 is overkill IMO. Having done it both ways and trained people that have done is various ways with and without drugs I have not seen one or the other show a clear increase in fat loss at all. In fact its about the same all around.

Getting sub 10% is usually a completely different issue for the majority of people.
 

houseman

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Yeah, but you still want to do the extreme dieting aspect of it correct? Such was the goal of my recommendation, to give you the best "extreme" androgen-assisted diet routine for quick weight loss and muscle/strength preservation.
well I don't WANT to do an extreme diet but I WILL do what needs to be.

I'm looking to achieve the best results using the best course of action, whichever that is.

I hadn't made my mind up on the UD2 program because of its carb restrictions and I from what I have read the partioning effects of the SD make it beneficial to be run WITH carbs in the diet and is why I was leaning towards a 40/40/20 split.
 
Dwight Schrute

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The reason I usually recommend a 40/40/20 split for anyone from 12% or higher is that I have seen much more benefits in gaining and/or retaining LBM and strenght while using this instaed of UD2.
 

houseman

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Its not really a debatable issue. You have to state what goals you want to achieve to really debate which would be more advantageous. A 40/40/20 doesn't remain a 40/40/20 if you goals are to achieve low bf%. There will always be changes in the macro profiles with every diet.

If you are just looking to cut fat to maybe mid teens then UD2 is overkill IMO. Having done it both ways and trained people that have done is various ways with and without drugs I have not seen one or the other show a clear increase in fat loss at all. In fact its about the same all around.

Getting sub 10% is usually a completely different issue for the majority of people.
Low BF in 6 weeks when my starting is 22% isn't going to happen :D

Mid-teens, I believe in 6 weeks is more than doable.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Maybe, maybe not. You simply can't tell unless you've done it before.
 
Dwight Schrute

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If you can achieve a bf% in the mid teens in 6 weeks. You SHOULD be able to do it but I've seen some really stubborn fat in people ;)
 

Loki

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Maybe, maybe not. You simply can't tell unless you've done it before.
The man speaks the truth.

Really houseman, it's up to you. If you're itching to go intense, and that's the route you're committed to, then I think it's viable/doable. I do not think it ideal though, and I do think Bobo's recommendation of a 40/40/20 is more fundamentally sound, although I do think you will see slightly slower progress (although certainly progress all the same).

And, again, we're all speculating here. I have no idea how well or poorly your body is going to respond to your diet or how well you're going to do it. So ultimately: "it all comes down to you". Just do your thing (whatever you so choose it to be).
 

houseman

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The reason I usually recommend a 40/40/20 split for anyone from 12% or higher is that I have seen much more benefits in gaining and/or retaining LBM and strenght while using this instaed of UD2.
Well, I seem to be quite interesting.

Been on this UD2 style diet for close to 6 weeks now. And my strength and stamina is constantly going up and up and up.

Though, I'll say... this could be laregely in part to being back in the gym now 9 weeks after having taken 8 weeks off due to an injury.
 

houseman

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If you can achieve a bf% in the mid teens in 6 weeks. You SHOULD be able to do it but I've seen some really stubborn fat in people
Yeah, this is true. Younger... dieting was never ever a problem. Getting older seems to be making it much more difficult. My endo-type body really seems to take hold more as I age.

Who the **** knows lol
 

houseman

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Thanks Loki and Bobo. I appreciate you guys chiming in on this thread. Perhaps this will be good for other guys reading who are debating the same question I was/am.
 
Dwight Schrute

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I think your curiousity is getting the best of you. You want to try all diets and all combinations of supps. And there isn't anything wrong with that ;)
 
Dwight Schrute

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Yeah, this is true. Younger... dieting was never ever a problem. Getting older seems to be making it much more difficult. My endo-type body really seems to take hold more as I age.

Who the **** knows lol

Yup. I'm training a women (will be 2 soon) with hypothyroidism now and fat is coming off easier with her then some of my older male clients. You just never know until you do it.



:think:


:D
 

houseman

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I think your curiousity is getting the best of you. You want to try all diets and all combinations of supps. And there isn't anything wrong with that ;)
Oh yeah, I like goodies lol.

SD more than anything I want to try out. I like to try different dieting strategies too but with time running out I know I can have my cake and eat it too (pun intended lol) so I'm going to have to make a choice here.

So here's the final Q of the moment. Assuming the SD is present and following a 40/40/20 split... is there any point ot Phenogen of Leptigen?

Disclaimner/Note: I know Bobo doesn't think with proper nutrition, etc that "supplements" are required and I'll agree. However, I am looking to accelerate the process just a little and if they'll help... then I am interested.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Loki will do a much better job at answering that than I can.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Disclaimner/Note: I know Bobo doesn't think with proper nutrition, etc that "supplements" are required and I'll agree. However, I am looking to accelerate the process just a little and if they'll help... then I am interested.

I wonder if people knew how much I spent on supps they would stop thinking I'm anti-supplement :D

I just don't like it when I see people using supps to fix training/nutrition problems. Thats all.

Avant got many of my $'s over the years.
 

Loki

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So here's the final Q of the moment. Assuming the SD is present and following a 40/40/20 split... is there any point ot Phenogen of Leptigen?
Whatever point you had in selecting them in the first place didn't magically vanish into thin air...lol.

Yes, the point is that Leptigen Rebirth inhibits fat storage, increases nutrient storage in muscle, decreases appetite (by improving leptin sensitivity and "fedness"-signaling in the brain), and optimizes metabolism in ways that would typically correspond to much leaner, more insulin sensitive and trained individuals.

Phenogen: 1. contributes more Sesathin (more insulin sensitivity, more cellular fat-burning, less inflammation, increased phospholipid membrane permeability), 2. activates AMP-mediated protein kinase in skeletal muscle and basically renders cellular energy production more inefficient, meaning that it requires a higher carbohydrate intake to keep up cellular ATP concentrations. Your body reacts to AMPk activation by partitioning more glucose and free-fatty acids to your muscles to compensate for the increased demand in ATP, so more/better partitioning to muscles of what you eat, and more fat burned. Lastly, it 3. provides our salvia extract, which antagonizes DGAT, the enzyme which would normally be trying to synthesize TAGs (triglycerides) (in other words: "storing fat"). Less DGAT activity means less storage of fat, coupled with--as I said above--more burning of fat from the other ingredients in Phenogen, so you've tipped the scales significantly from adipogenesis(fat storage/creation) to lipolysis (fat reduction).
:cheers:

I tend to think it pretty good to have all the above stuff going for you on a diet. Wouldn't you agree?
 

Loki

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Yup. I'm training a women (will be 2 soon) with hypothyroidism now and fat is coming off easier with her then some of my older male clients. You just never know until you do it.



:think:


:D
The human body is stupid-unpredictable. It always goes, but more times than not, you just have no clue whos at the helm or what's turning the wheels..
 

houseman

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Whatever point you had in selecting them in the first place didn't magically vanish into thin air...lol.

Yes, the point is that Leptigen Rebirth inhibits fat storage, increases nutrient storage in muscle, decreases appetite (by improving leptin sensitivity and "fedness"-signaling in the brain), and optimizes metabolism in ways that would typically correspond to much leaner, more insulin sensitive and trained individuals.

Phenogen: 1. contributes more Sesathin (more insulin sensitivity, more cellular fat-burning, less inflammation, increased phospholipid membrane permeability), 2. activates AMP-mediated protein kinase in skeletal muscle and basically renders cellular energy production more inefficient, meaning that it requires a higher carbohydrate intake to keep up cellular ATP concentrations. Your body reacts to AMPk activation by partitioning more glucose and free-fatty acids to your muscles to compensate for the increased demand in ATP, so more/better partitioning to muscles of what you eat, and more fat burned. Lastly, it 3. provides our salvia extract, which antagonizes DGAT, the enzyme which would normally be trying to synthesize TAGs (triglycerides) (in other words: "storing fat"). Less DGAT activity means less storage of fat, coupled with--as I said above--more burning of fat from the other ingredients in Phenogen, so you've tipped the scales significantly from adipogenesis(fat storage/creation) to lipolysis (fat reduction).
:cheers:

I tend to think it pretty good to have all the above stuff going for you on a diet. Wouldn't you agree?
Loki:

Thank you.

You've help a great deal :)
 
prolangtum

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I personally will probaly never go the route of UD2 style dieting, but I really have ecto/meso tendencies. Im bulking on slightly over 5k cals, and my only anti fat gain supplements are HEAT stack and Sesathin. Both being dosed moderately. I of course have not lost any fat, but to my delight, my VAT is noticeably reducing. Sub Q fat looks roughly the same, albeit slight bloat from a little extra estrogen. When I cut carbs for any longer than 2 days, my workouts and mental stability go to ****. I dont think I could handle such low calories, as in UD2. I have always had best luck cutting with a pretty much isocaloric diet. It has enough carbs and calories where my workouts dont tank. If my workouts tank, I probaly wont stay on the diet. It is more mental for me than anything. I have stayed sub 10% for months on end that way, so it is easily done. So, I would gravitate towards the 40/20/20 split if "I" were you, but as said, it depends on how fast/drastically you want to lean up.
 

houseman

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I personally will probaly never go the route of UD2 style dieting, but I really have ecto/meso tendencies. Im bulking on slightly over 5k cals, and my only anti fat gain supplements are HEAT stack and Sesathin. Both being dosed moderately. I of course have not lost any fat, but to my delight, my VAT is noticeably reducing. Sub Q fat looks roughly the same, albeit slight bloat from a little extra estrogen. When I cut carbs for any longer than 2 days, my workouts and mental stability go to ****. I dont think I could handle such low calories, as in UD2. I have always had best luck cutting with a pretty much isocaloric diet. It has enough carbs and calories where my workouts dont tank. If my workouts tank, I probaly wont stay on the diet. It is more mental for me than anything. I have stayed sub 10% for months on end that way, so it is easily done. So, I would gravitate towards the 40/20/20 split if "I" were you, but as said, it depends on how fast/drastically you want to lean up.
Thanks for weighing in brother.

How fast is always a tricky question because I am FIRM believer that the long it take something the longer lasting the results will be. This goes for bulking or cutting. Guys gaining 13 and 17+lbs on 4-6 week cycles I have a hard time believing that they are keeping those "gains".

In 6 weeks, I'll be very happy if I can drop down to mid-teens with steady off there. With exception of the midsection I am looking fucking huge as it is. Delts and chest are poppin out. Some separation can be seen in the legs. It's the mother fucking tummy!!!! lol

Thanks again to all.
 
Kristopher

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In 6 weeks, I'll be very happy if I can drop down to mid-teens with steady off there. With exception of the midsection I am looking fucking huge as it is. Delts and chest are poppin out. Some separation can be seen in the legs. It's the mother fucking tummy!!!! lol
Dude i totally hear you.. i hate being an endo..
 

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Whatever point you had in selecting them in the first place didn't magically vanish into thin air...lol.

Yes, the point is that Leptigen Rebirth inhibits fat storage, increases nutrient storage in muscle, decreases appetite (by improving leptin sensitivity and "fedness"-signaling in the brain), and optimizes metabolism in ways that would typically correspond to much leaner, more insulin sensitive and trained individuals.

Phenogen: 1. contributes more Sesathin (more insulin sensitivity, more cellular fat-burning, less inflammation, increased phospholipid membrane permeability), 2. activates AMP-mediated protein kinase in skeletal muscle and basically renders cellular energy production more inefficient, meaning that it requires a higher carbohydrate intake to keep up cellular ATP concentrations. Your body reacts to AMPk activation by partitioning more glucose and free-fatty acids to your muscles to compensate for the increased demand in ATP, so more/better partitioning to muscles of what you eat, and more fat burned. Lastly, it 3. provides our salvia extract, which antagonizes DGAT, the enzyme which would normally be trying to synthesize TAGs (triglycerides) (in other words: "storing fat"). Less DGAT activity means less storage of fat, coupled with--as I said above--more burning of fat from the other ingredients in Phenogen, so you've tipped the scales significantly from adipogenesis(fat storage/creation) to lipolysis (fat reduction).
:cheers:

I tend to think it pretty good to have all the above stuff going for you on a diet. Wouldn't you agree?
Which are you saying he should stack with his SD based on his goals?
 

Loki

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Which are you saying he should stack with his SD based on his goals?
Rebirth and Sesathin (since Phenogen is currently unavailable), with a thermo/appetite suppressant of some sort.
 

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