H.E.A.T. ans Phenogen

Mr.50

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H.E.A.T. and Phenogen

Guys,


I was thinking of diong the following cutting stack combining H.E.A.T. and Phenogen with some other stuff and was looking for you opinion:

H.E.A.T.
Phenogen
Trimax
Rebound XT or HOT from ALRI
ActivaTe
Body Octane
Clout

Obviously the first three are for the actual cutting while the last four at to try to maintain lbm during the cut. I am sure I sould use some stronger anabolic but since my goal is maximum fat loss even if it is at the expense of some lbm, hopefully it will be enough.

So generally, is there any interactions between your products and any of the others; and is the amount of Sesathin contained in the Phenogen enough to get the full effect or should additional SesaThin be added?

Obviously due to the availability of the ActivaTe I may have to wait a few weeks to begin.
Mr.50
 
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prolangtum

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Guys,


I was thinking of diong the following cutting stack combining H.E.A.T. and Phenogen with some other stuff and was looking for you opinion:

H.E.A.T.
Phenogen
Trimax
Rebound XT or HOT from ALRI
ActivaTe
Body Octane
Clout

Obviously the first three are for the actual cutting while the last four at to try to maintain lbm during the cut. I am sure I sould use some stronger anabolic but since my goal is maximum fat loss even if it is at the expense of some lbm, hopefully it will be enough.

So generally, is there any interactions between your products and any of the others; and is the amount of Sesathin contained in the Phenogen enough to get the full effect or should additional SesaThin be added?

Obviously due to the availability of the ActivaTe I may have to wait a few weeks to begin.
Mr.50
Im not sure what is ActivaTe. Clout is a creatine product, no? Phenogen should not be taken with creatine. Its not that there is a bad interaction, but taking creatine will negate the affects of the GPA in Phenogen. Any ATP substrates should be avoided. You could add additional Sesathin, but I would go at first without adding any.
 

Mr.50

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What about the Body Octane, that has Citrulline Maleate in it? Is that also a problem. The ActivaTe is Sledge's new SHBG binding product to free up more Free Test.


Mr.50
 

Mr.50

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Boy this is going to be a bit rougher cutter without those since I engage in significant intensity cardio (for boxing) and without those I am afraid that I will not have the ATP for that type of intensity.
 

Twin Peak

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If you are double dosing PhenoGen, that should be sufficient SesaThin, if not you should add some.

As I stated elsewhere, I am running a double dose of PhenoGen, double dose of Rebound, and a double dose of Lean Xtreme, and I am dropping weight rapidly, and gaining strength.
 

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If you are double dosing PhenoGen, that should be sufficient SesaThin, if not you should add some.

As I stated elsewhere, I am running a double dose of PhenoGen, double dose of Rebound, and a double dose of Lean Xtreme, and I am dropping weight rapidly, and gaining strength.
Double does of Lean Extreme as in 12 pills a day?

Double dose of Rebound as in 8 a day?
 

Mr.50

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Twin Peak can you give the exact pills you have used for each supplement so that we know what you mean exactly by double. Also how much do you weigh? Another thing is that I am going to be using the 7-OH Diprop by DS the other way at 600mg per week.


Mr.50
 

Grant

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If you are double dosing PhenoGen, that should be sufficient SesaThin, if not you should add some.

As I stated elsewhere, I am running a double dose of PhenoGen, double dose of Rebound, and a double dose of Lean Xtreme, and I am dropping weight rapidly, and gaining strength.
I am on a simular stack, but not double dosed.

I am using 7-0h, GXR, Rebound, and Sesathin. Just added in the sesathin and Rebound today, I am not coming off anything just wanted to see how rebound works solo. I am lean bulking right now
 

Mr.50

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Also forgot to mention that I am going to be using GXR in my stack.


Mr.50
 

BigP0ppa3

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Guys,


I was thinking of diong the following cutting stack combining H.E.A.T. and Phenogen with some other stuff and was looking for you opinion:

H.E.A.T.
Phenogen
Trimax
Rebound XT or HOT from ALRI
ActivaTe
Body Octane
Clout
I've actually start a very similar stack to what you're talking about here and I've been having some good results so far.

Originally I intended to run GXR and Lean Extreme without anything else to cut body fat. I decided to add Trimax and Sesathin to the mix as well.

Currently I dose as follows:
(I stopped taking NO-Xplode before I started all this)
GXR: 1 cap before morning cardio (usually around 8am), 1 cap before lunch, 1 cap before lifting (usually around 9pm), and 2 caps before bed
LX: 2 caps before morning cardio, 1 cap 4 hours later, 1 cap before bed
Trimax: I started with 2 caps a day (8am/8pm) but have added another cap daily @ 2pm for a total of 3/day
Sesathin: 1/2 tsp three times a day (with breakfast/lunch/dinner) - this is a double dose

Just received my bottle of Phenogen this afternoon which I will be adding in as well. Once I do that though I will reduce my Sesathin to the regular dosage of 1/4 tsp three times a day.

I haven't run any PH's to counteract loss of LBM from the Trimax, just my standard multivitamin and fish oil caps along with protein shakes and 3 tbsp of flax oil a day. Haven't really noticed a loss in size (read: cause I'm fat) but my strength in lifts has diminished to where I can still use the same weights as before, but 1-2 less reps on my last sets.

The current GXR, LX, Trimax, Sesa combo has been in effect since Monday 3/7 so been 12 days for a loss of 6 pounds (went from 223 - 217).

I'm just under 6' and roughly 27% bf so you can see my desire to straighten things out here and also the reason I haven't taken the PH's I have on hand. I'd really like to get to below 20% before I even think about them (Bobo will be hearing from me soon....)
 

Mr.50

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Big Poppa,


Good job bro. Thats six pounds in 11 days. Stick with it. I am at about 200lbs with about 12%-13% bf but I am only 5'8''. My problem is I just have real problems even with a lot of hard work getting below 10%. But I think I will run the following:

Phenogen Double Dose
H.E.A.T. Double Dose
Trimax 3 caps
Rebound 4 caps
ActivaTe

With very low carb and 500 calories below maintenance.

Please keep us posted on your results. I will be starting next thursday the 24th (strange day to start but I am having some blood work on Wednesday that I don't want to be skewed at all) and I will keep you guys posted.

Mr.50
 

Twin Peak

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Sorry.

PhenoGen, 4 caps, 3x per day w/ meals
LX -- 3 caps upon waking and 3 more before bed
Rebound -- 4 caps before bed

I would probably add in HEAT -- 3 caps, 3 x day, 1 hour before meals, and two caps of GXR, but I am out of each.
 

Mr.50

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That looks so good with a little bosst in T from ActivaTe when it is available along with the Trimax and then Melting Point when it is available. i know I am getting craze here but for once I am going to go on an all out cutter.


Mr.50
 

BigP0ppa3

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Big Poppa,


Good job bro. Thats six pounds in 11 days. Stick with it. I am at about 200lbs with about 12%-13% bf but I am only 5'8''. My problem is I just have real problems even with a lot of hard work getting below 10%. But I think I will run the following:

Phenogen Double Dose
H.E.A.T. Double Dose
Trimax 3 caps
Rebound 4 caps
ActivaTe

With very low carb and 500 calories below maintenance.

Please keep us posted on your results. I will be starting next thursday the 24th (strange day to start but I am having some blood work on Wednesday that I don't want to be skewed at all) and I will keep you guys posted.

Mr.50
Thanks man,

I also wanna mention that I do the cardio in the AM for 45min-1hr depending on how much time I have, at a low intensity (using HR monitor w/strap), and on an empty stomach. I also do 30min of cardio after I lift each day, again at a low intensity, for a total of 75-90 minutes of cardio a day. Once I finish up my morning cardio (and also once I get home from my evening workouts) I have a protein shake with oats mixed in.

The reason I bring this up is cause of what I've read on the other threads in here, especially the posts by Lean One, about cardio for fat loss.

I want to make sure that it's ok to do the AM work on an empty stomach since I'm keeping the intensity low and my only goal at this point is fat loss - I'll build muscle back up later as that generally comes fairly easily to me.

This might not be the thread for that so I'll probably repost that question on it's own.

BP
 

Grant

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I would not use trimax by itself, even with m1t, I lost strength on it, it will eat your muscle away if you using it sans androgens.
 

Loki

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As far as cardio on an empty stomach, unless you are below 10% and are hitting the set-point crash, Im not opposed to it. I dont necessarily think it necessary, but it will certainly speed total weight loss.
 

Mr.50

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Loki,


Can you elaborate a bit more. I was interested in what you said about 10% and set point. Everytime I cut I seem to get stuck around 10% no matter how hard I try. Reduce calories, up cardio, increase supps, etc; I just always seem to get stuck there. I don't know if it is psychological or what.

Mr.50
 

Loki

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No, it's physiological. That's when your body kicks in the starvation reponse and you need to start working smarter, rather than harder (drugs help immensely too).

If you're trying to get below 10%, a cyclical diet for one is an almost absolute: you need the glycogen depletion during the week to achieve the FFA release necessary to actually generate lipolysis, and you need the overwhelming fed-state signaling anabolic rebound (glucose overfeeding) on the weekend to keep your brain semi-complacent and your muscles semi-existant.

Like I said on another post, it has a lot to do with leptin and neurotransmitters, especially since leptin (once it crosses the BBB) binds to dopaminergic neurons. Dieting reduces basal dopamine tone to begin with, which is why, combined with a lot of other things (it gets wicked complicated), pretty much everything related to reproduction and anabolism end up in the tubes, and makes it really hard to lose more fat, since NE starts negative-feedbacking on itself and glucocorticoid activity is sky-high.

So basically, to effectively lose more weight below 10% (unless you got really lucky with your gene pool), you need

a.) the UD 2.0 or a CKD
b.) anti-catabolic drugs (clenbuterol, steroids, 7-OH or 7-OXO dhea, etc)
c.) "brain stuff" (nicotine or bromocriptine (or both), HEAT)
d.) food-mimickers (leptigen basic)
 
prolangtum

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There would not be a reaction, but it may lessen the desired affects of Phenogen.
 

KCPreki11

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Can you explain to me how CM would lessen the effects of Phenogen. Thanks.
 
Par Deus

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Malate is a substrate for ATP

The GPA is Phenogen works by making ATP formation inefficient (thus, wasting calories).

If you need less ATP because of the malate, it won't have to be formed through the wasteful process.

Creatine is the worst offender, because it and GPA directly cancel each other out.
 

d2Lw

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:blink:

I'm using Body Octane, xtend, neurostim and NOxidant around my workout

However, I'm also using Phenogen. If I try to consume the Phenogen as far as possible away from my workout time, would they still negate?

:sad:
 
prolangtum

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That really is a good question, Ill differ to the greater minds, Par or Loki will probaly have a better grip on this one. I really am not sure.
 
Par Deus

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:blink:

I'm using Body Octane, xtend, neurostim and NOxidant around my workout

However, I'm also using Phenogen. If I try to consume the Phenogen as far as possible away from my workout time, would they still negate?

:sad:
Other than creatine, I don't think you need to worry much, period, about ATP substrates unless you are taking a bunch (like 10 grams of malate a day).

With creatine, timing won't help that much, because GPA takes a while to displace it and start doing its magic, though if you use it, just use it around your workout.

In any case, the GPA/creatine thing is just one mechanism, so even if you are creatine loading while taking phenogen, you probably will only lose 1/3 of the efficacy.
 

WhutEvr

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Is there anything that should not be stacked with Phenogen?
 
prolangtum

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Mainly what has been discussed above. Creatine being the main thing to stay away from. CM to a lesser extent.
 

Mr.50

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Just letting you guys know this is my second day of my stack and I feel pretty good. just got back from the gym and some cardio. Got a good high during the cardio. Took my three HEAT right before. Also, felt very warm. Only the second day of the Trimax and already the squirts have started. But hey, its a small price to pay. I am not going to weigh myself more then once a week so that I can give a true account of weight loss rather then daily fluid changes. On Monday I weighed in at 198. Started cardio, etc on Monday but did not start supps till Yesterday because of some blood work I had done on Wednesday.



Mr.50
 

d2Lw

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A few questions:

I'm just wondering, I believe Phenogen need to be cycled like 6weeks on 2 weeks off?
Would it be different when double dosing like Twin Peak and Mr.50?
What's the recommended alternative to take during off cycle?

SesaThin on the other hand, don't need to be cycled, right?

Does H.E.A.T. and Lean Xtreme need to be cycled?
If so what's the duration on/off?
And if they do need to be cycled, again would the timing diff for double dosing?
(I know LX is not Avant's product but Twin Peak is using it here, maybe I'll get answer here)
Again, if they need to be cycled, what's would be good to take during off cycle?

Do Avant's transdermal products need to be cycled?

Actually, since there're many experts here, I may as well ask this here: do products like body octane, xtend, Neurostim, Noxidant, Syneburn, etc need to be cycled?

:think:
 
prolangtum

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Phew, thats a load of questions. Phenogen should be used for a max of 6-8 weeks. Take 2-4 weeks off, and use creatine in the off weeks. Dont use a creatine product while on Phenogen. Higher doses really wont affect the recomended time off/time on. Sesathin does not need to be cycled. IMO, it should be a base supplement just like fish oil and a multivitamin, but of course I am biased. As for the transdermals, absolved should not be used indefinitely. I would suggest going through a bottle, then taking 2-4 weeks off in between. As for Lipoderm Y and Ultra, there really is not a need to cycle off.
 
Robboe

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The only thing of SesaThin i'd cycle is the dosing - less if you're trying to gain weight (but only if it's a problem) and more if you're trying to lose weight, but of course i say "less" and "more" within the realm of the recommended dosing i.e. 1/4tsp x1 or x2/day vs 1/4 tsp x3 or x4/day.
 

Mr.50

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I know I wasn't going to weigh myself till Monday afternoon again (once a week at the same time) but I cheated today. I got on the scale and I was 189 today. So that is 9 pounds in 12 days. So far this is great. I figure it will slow down a bit from here but hopefully not. I am losing some lbm but I am still looking leaner all over and abs are starting to show well. I will give more updates on Monday. Only negative is some cramping throughout different muscle groups. I think many of the muscle cells are actually cramping not from the typical electrolyte imbalance nut actually from a lack of ATP.

Mr.50
 

Loki

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You're making sure to consumer plenty of fluids, right? And are you keeping tabs on your sodium intake?

Definitely pleased to hear about your results, glad things are working well for you. Keep up the good work man.
 

Mr.50

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Thanks Loki. I am not really paying attention to sodium intake to much but also trying not to add any extra. Also I am drinking about 3 liters of water a day. (some days slightly less).


Is there any good way to determine if I am losing too much lbm and should add something anti-catabolic? For example it seems to me that if I was losing more LBM then fat my body fat would be staying the same or increasing as I lost weight. Also I assume I would not really look like I was getting more cut. Is this correct or is that a poor way to determine. As I said I don't mind losing some LBM (for my height at boxing I would be better off in a lower weight class) as long as I don't end up as a smaller version of myself still with 13% bf.

Mr.50
 
prolangtum

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Keeping weekly tabs on your bodyfat with calipers and weight will help, as you can calculate your total lbm from week to week.
 

Loki

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For example it seems to me that if I was losing more LBM then fat my body fat would be staying the same or increasing as I lost weight. Also I assume I would not really look like I was getting more cut. Is this correct or is that a poor way to determine.
What you're saying is essentially correct, although it's not always easy to determine subjectively (visually) on a week-to-week basis. On a month-to-month basis however (especially if you are taking progress photos), it should be fairly easy to evaluate how much LBM you are losing in relation to bodyfat losses.

As Pro said, weekly caliper readings are another good way to keep tabs on things in the short-term.

However, given that you are using both Lean Xtreme and H.E.A.T. (both of which are solidly anti-catabolic for different reasons, HEAT being protein-sparing in skeletal muscle & accelerating counterregulatory protein synthesis and Lean Xtreme exerting anti-glucocorticoid [re: cortisol] activity), I would not be too overly concerned with LBM mass. With that said, as your diet progresses, one (or several) low-dose, one-to-two-week cycles of clenbuterol might not be a bad idea, as would be both synergistic with Phenogen, and additive with HEAT in terms of lipolysis, and semi-synergistic with Lean Xtreme. I'm thinking 40-80mcg/day, cycled, naturally, with taurine supplementation.
 

Mr.50

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Loki,


Between the H.E.A.T., Trimax, and Clen do you think there would be a chance of too much cardiac stimulation? Don't want to have and MI in the middle of cardio.

Mr.50
 

Loki

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Loki,


Between the H.E.A.T., Trimax, and Clen do you think there would be a chance of too much cardiac stimulation? Don't want to have and MI in the middle of cardio.

Mr.50
You know your body/limits better than I do. I know I've used H.E.A.T., Clen, and T3 simultaneously and the only time(s) I was ever concerned was when I would try to do HIIT with Clen doses of above 120mcg/day (regular aerobic cardio never bothered me), but then again I'm fucking crazy. Like I said, safest if you kept the close dose low, and in general H.E.A.T. is rather benign in terms of cardiac stimulation--it doesn't create the kind of norepinephrine response that E/C does (it's actually a vasodialator in some tissues), and it's a pretty indescriminate (and entirely indirect) beta adrenergic agonist. Ultimately, I leave it up to you as a suggestion to consider. I think it would help your progress, and I don't think it poses much of a risk, but it's certainly not worth permanently harming your person just to cut a little quicker, and if you are indeed worried, then I say skip. I leave the choice up to you.
 

Mr.50

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No Loki, I am not too worried and I appreciated your candor. I think if things keep progressing at this pace I will stick it out without (mainly because Clen usually leaves me feeling fatigued, not because of the cardiac thing). But if things slow down as I approach my target goals (175lbs by May 1st) then I may kick in the Clen. Thanks again.

Mr.50


You know your body/limits better than I do. I know I've used H.E.A.T., Clen, and T3 simultaneously and the only time(s) I was ever concerned was when I would try to do HIIT with Clen doses of above 120mcg/day (regular aerobic cardio never bothered me), but then again I'm fucking crazy. Like I said, safest if you kept the close dose low, and in general H.E.A.T. is rather benign in terms of cardiac stimulation--it doesn't create the kind of norepinephrine response that E/C does (it's actually a vasodialator in some tissues), and it's a pretty indescriminate (and entirely indirect) beta adrenergic agonist. Ultimately, I leave it up to you as a suggestion to consider. I think it would help your progress, and I don't think it poses much of a risk, but it's certainly not worth permanently harming your person just to cut a little quicker, and if you are indeed worried, then I say skip. I leave the choice up to you.
 

Mr.50

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Loki,

I am seriously considering adding in some clen for the remainder of my cutter. I feel like things are slowing down a bit because I definately don't feel as hot as I did over the weekend and last week. It may be subjective but I don't want to lose any time. I have till May 1st (approx 3 weeks and 3 day) so do you think it would be better to kick in the Clen during next week and the last week, ommiting the middle week? OR to not start the clen until the last two weeks? also in the past when I have used clen I was not taking taurine or potasium. What are your suggestions for using both of these with the clen?

Thanks bro.


Mr.50



What you're saying is essentially correct, although it's not always easy to determine subjectively (visually) on a week-to-week basis. On a month-to-month basis however (especially if you are taking progress photos), it should be fairly easy to evaluate how much LBM you are losing in relation to bodyfat losses.

As Pro said, weekly caliper readings are another good way to keep tabs on things in the short-term.

However, given that you are using both Lean Xtreme and H.E.A.T. (both of which are solidly anti-catabolic for different reasons, HEAT being protein-sparing in skeletal muscle & accelerating counterregulatory protein synthesis and Lean Xtreme exerting anti-glucocorticoid [re: cortisol] activity), I would not be too overly concerned with LBM mass. With that said, as your diet progresses, one (or several) low-dose, one-to-two-week cycles of clenbuterol might not be a bad idea, as would be both synergistic with Phenogen, and additive with HEAT in terms of lipolysis, and semi-synergistic with Lean Xtreme. I'm thinking 40-80mcg/day, cycled, naturally, with taurine supplementation.
 
prolangtum

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Id hit the clen the last 2 weeks. Keep doses moderate, at around 80-100mcg. Supplement a few grams of Taurine and 2g of Potassium. Whats your diet look like? Could any alterations be made in it instead of adding more supplements/drugs?
 

Mr.50

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Good question. My protein intake is around 1.5 grams per lb of LBM. Everything else is vegetables and other low carb type foods. Also lots of ggod fats (Canola, Olive Oil, and Seaseme). I was considering a cyclical diet with some carb up days (probably 5 low carb, 2 carb up , 5 low carb, etc) but my real focus is weight loss with out paced fat loss, and lean mass retention is not as much of a focus (within reason). Calories are about 500 below maintenance (give or take 100). Water intake is high.

Mr.50


Id hit the clen the last 2 weeks. Keep doses moderate, at around 80-100mcg. Supplement a few grams of Taurine and 2g of Potassium. Whats your diet look like? Could any alterations be made in it instead of adding more supplements/drugs?
 

Loki

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Good question. My protein intake is around 1.5 grams per lb of LBM. Everything else is vegetables and other low carb type foods. Also lots of ggod fats (Canola, Olive Oil, and Seaseme). I was considering a cyclical diet with some carb up days (probably 5 low carb, 2 carb up , 5 low carb, etc) but my real focus is weight loss with out paced fat loss, and lean mass retention is not as much of a focus (within reason). Calories are about 500 below maintenance (give or take 100). Water intake is high.

Mr.50
Canola and Sesame (if it's the oil, not Sesathin) should not really be considered "good" fats.

"Good" fats are fish oil, lecithin, egg yolks, and olive oil (preferably extra virgin), or even flax. I would use all five of those before I intentionally touched canola or sesame oil on a diet.
 

Mr.50

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I can understand the objection to the sesame oil but what is the objection to the Canola? It has no trans fats, and relatively high amounts of Omega-6 and Omega-3 ber serving. Cooking with Olive is tough sometimes as it is a bit heavy on some foods.IMHO.


Mr.50
 

Loki

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I can understand the objection to the sesame oil but what is the objection to the Canola? It has no trans fats, and relatively high amounts of Omega-6 and Omega-3 ber serving. Cooking with Olive is tough sometimes as it is a bit heavy on some foods.IMHO.


Mr.50
Let me just pose a two-part question:

- What are convential O:6 fatty acids good for on a diet?

- What is alpha-linolenic acid good for?
 

Mr.50

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Loki,

I think your question was retorical because I am sure that someone with all of your knowledge already knows the answers to this. My answer is that in reference to strictly a diet I think you might be right, that there is no real benefit. On the other hand I want to make sure that even though this is a short term cutter I don't want to adversly affect any blood lipids so that later on if I decide to use any aas/ph/ps/androgens my lipid profile is not already screwed up. This has just been my thoughts on this so far. I am very willing to listen to your suggestions though.

Mr.50


Let me just pose a two-part question:

- What are convential O:6 fatty acids good for on a diet?

- What is alpha-linolenic acid good for?
 

Mr.50

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Prolang,

I have heard the buzz about Enova but I really don't know that much about it. I will search now. Any information you could provide would be appreciated.

Mr.50


Buy some Enova oil and cook with that.
 

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