A little more Icariin info, plus PDE5 inhibitor info- ENJOY!!

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  1. If I am understanding this correctly here's what I gather:

    The rats were given a drug to suppress their reproductive systems. This would equate to a similar scenario with a person using anabolic steroids, in that the testis would be impaired along with suppression of LH and FSH.
    Results: (1) Icariin improved the condition of reproductive organs and increased the circulating levels of testosterone.
    the concentration of serum testosterone in the ICA group was higher than that in the C group and lower than that in the T group
    However, in the present study, there was no significant difference in serum levels of LH and FSH between ICA group and the others. It seems that icariin mainly affects the testis, but further study is required.
    So the Icariin is actling very similar to HCG, in that it is directly stimulating the testis. This is why I'd like to see labwork on a person with a functional HPTA (not on, or just coming off cycle), to see if it causes suppression of gonadatropins like HCG would.

    It would seem to me (if my above logic is correct), that a good use for the product would be to use it while on cycle to keep the boys going, also boost testosterone while on. I'm a HUGE fan of HCG, and if it were more readily available I would recommend that it be ran during any cycle.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by supersoldier View Post
    If I am understanding this correctly here's what I gather:

    The rats were given a drug to suppress their reproductive systems. This would equate to a similar scenario with a person using anabolic steroids, in that the testis would be impaired along with suppression of LH and FSH.
    So the Icariin is actling very similar to HCG, in that it is directly stimulating the testis. This is why I'd like to see labwork on a person with a functional HPTA (not on, or just coming off cycle), to see if it causes suppression of gonadatropins like HCG would.

    It would seem to me (if my above logic is correct), that a good use for the product would be to use it while on cycle to keep the boys going, also boost testosterone while on. I'm a HUGE fan of HCG, and if it were more readily available I would recommend that it be ran during any cycle.

    Interesting- I agree with most of the above- yes, the use (but not overuse) of HCG in-cycle is a good thing, just to keep the boys functioning (a Dr. John-type protocol). I think that some mechs. of action of Icariin are similar to HCG in the testes, BUT (and this is just anecdotal from people who have used RPM) RPM has a profound physique-hardening effect- which is very noticeable, even at higher body fat %'s. HCG has the tendency to cause increased testicular aromatase expression, which will result in increased estrogen levels- now here is the million dollar question:

    If Icariin does act like HCG (mimicking LH), wouldn't it increase testicular aromatase, and cause you to hold more water? OR are the AIs included in RPM simply overpowering this effect?

    It is a good theory- really gets me thinking- I am still leaning toward the icariin acting as an AI theory (and a subsequent reduction of SHBG), simply because as a PDE5 inhibitor it shares so many pharmokinetics w/ tadalafil- but, like you said, I guess a blood test is the best way to find out- I would like to take SHBG levels Pre- and Post- as well, along with Free Testosterone, LH, and FSH......
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post

    If Icariin does act like HCG (mimicking LH), wouldn't it increase testicular aromatase, and cause you to hold more water? OR are the AIs included in RPM simply overpowering this effect?

    It is a good theory- really gets me thinking- I am still leaning toward the icariin acting as an AI theory (and a subsequent reduction of SHBG), simply because as a PDE5 inhibitor it shares so many pharmokinetics w/ tadalafil- but, like you said, I guess a blood test is the best way to find out- I would like to take SHBG levels Pre- and Post- as well, along with Free Testosterone, LH, and FSH......
    Bloodwork would be good in two scenarios:

    1. Someone not on or coming off a cycle, with normal LH, FSH, test, etc. to see if it suppresses gonadatropins and increases testosterone. It seems like it'll definitely do the latter, just the former is in question...

    2. Someone on a steroid known to cause hard shutdown, ie M1T, with pre bloodwork done maybe 1-2 weeks into the M1T showing low/nil test, LH, FSH levels and then another 2 weeks or so after adding the Icariin to see if testosterone levels rise. With HCG in that scenario test will rise, I've seen it in my bloodwork. In this scenario, user testimony would also be very helpful just by observing testicle size, ejaculation volume <--- they'd go up, and also how they feel. M1T would make them feel like ****, and adding HCG would improve overall sense of well being a lot.

    I'm not working in a lab anymore, though I think I only have one more unemployment check. So who knows what the near future will bring...

  4. Quote Originally Posted by supersoldier View Post
    Bloodwork would be good in two scenarios:

    1. Someone not on or coming off a cycle, with normal LH, FSH, test, etc. to see if it suppresses gonadatropins and increases testosterone. It seems like it'll definitely do the latter, just the former is in question...

    2. Someone on a steroid known to cause hard shutdown, ie M1T, with pre bloodwork done maybe 1-2 weeks into the M1T showing low/nil test, LH, FSH levels and then another 2 weeks or so after adding the Icariin to see if testosterone levels rise. With HCG in that scenario test will rise, I've seen it in my bloodwork. In this scenario, user testimony would also be very helpful just by observing testicle size, ejaculation volume <--- they'd go up, and also how they feel. M1T would make them feel like ****, and adding HCG would improve overall sense of well being a lot.

    I'm not working in a lab anymore, though I think I only have one more unemployment check. So who knows what the near future will bring...

    Yeah- M1T will shut you down quick- definitely one of the more abusive compounds on the HPTA- I would love to have access to my own blood panel screening- you really could figure out a TON of stuff real quick- my wife is an RN, and DOES have access- but it kind of has to be for a legitimate medical concern- not just testing some of our crazy-ass theories (j/k we are on the same page)

  5. Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Yeah- M1T will shut you down quick- definitely one of the more abusive compounds on the HPTA- I would love to have access to my own blood panel screening- you really could figure out a TON of stuff real quick- my wife is an RN, and DOES have access- but it kind of has to be for a legitimate medical concern- not just testing some of our crazy-ass theories (j/k we are on the same page)
    rms,

    Some trime in the next few years should we should see at-home blood testing kits that will become very capable as the future arrives. We should be able to test liver and kidney function, and all the basic blood work without going to the doctor. Also, we should be able to screen many genetic propensities for progressive heart disease, syndrome X, and various cancers. Of course, you will be able to check more mundane things such as mineral levels (optimal or not) and vitamin levels.

    This is according to "The End of Medicine: How Silcon Valley Will Reboot Your Doctor."

    Yet, I've seen other evidence of these trends too. There is a quiet revolution going on and not just by the techies of silcon valley. It includes many, many more options for preventive medicine.

    Sports medicine and physiology has always pushed the envelope for many years, but what was once only available to the elite athlete is becoming more available to the average Joe and Janet.

    There will be a struggle by doctors to prevent some of this from happening, but the cost of health care will cause a flood tide to push the new technologies and information access through.

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  6. Quote Originally Posted by tuberman View Post
    rms,

    Some trime in the next few years should we should see at-home blood testing kits that will become very capable as the future arrives. We should be able to test liver and kidney function, and all the basic blood work without going to the doctor. Also, we should be able to screen many genetic propensities for progressive heart disease, syndrome X, and various cancers. Of course, you will be able to check more mundane things such as mineral levels (optimal or not) and vitamin levels.

    This is according to "The End of Medicine: How Silcon Valley Will Reboot Your Doctor."

    Yet, I've seen other evidence of these trends too. There is a quiet revolution going on and not just by the techies of silcon valley. It includes many, many more options for preventive medicine.

    Sports medicine and physiology has always pushed the envelope for many years, but what was once only available to the elite athlete is becoming more available to the average Joe and Janet.

    There will be a struggle by doctors to prevent some of this from happening, but the cost of health care will cause a flood tide to push the new technologies and information access through.


    Good post!!!!! Man, I hope you are right- I have heard rumors of impending legislation, but I think public outcry would FAR outweigh and type of effectiveness regarding an FDA-mandated shift to prescription supplements, vitamins, and minerals.

    That is the reason for these rumors- the pharmaceutical companies HAVE been trying to slowly push towards doing this, but will not have public support- so yes, I think what you are talking about above will happen, sooner rather than later!! Lack of affordable health care in the United States will eventually impair capitalism (through overpriced government-mandated health plans for small business and even corporations), and this will lead to a TON of people shifting toward the supplement industry for answers.

    The only fix for this, at least in my eyes, is to mandate supplements and get certain crooks out of the industry, while at the same, educating individuals that preventative medicine (very ****ty in the US) is attainable (through SCHOOL). How can we teach kids to learn enormous amounts of things, but we can't teach them to eat healthy? Doesn't even make sense!!!!!

    Long story short, making vitamins and supplements prescription would piss so many people off so quickly, that the FDA would be forced to overturn any decision of this nature.....
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals

  7. Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Good post!!!!! Man, I hope you are right- I have heard rumors of impending legislation, but I think public outcry would FAR outweigh and type of effectiveness regarding an FDA-mandated shift to prescription supplements, vitamins, and minerals.

    That is the reason for these rumors- the pharmaceutical companies HAVE been trying to slowly push towards doing this, but will not have public support- so yes, I think what you are talking about above will happen, sooner rather than later!! Lack of affordable health care in the United States will eventually impair capitalism (through overpriced government-mandated health plans for small business and even corporations), and this will lead to a TON of people shifting toward the supplement industry for answers.

    The only fix for this, at least in my eyes, is to mandate supplements and get certain crooks out of the industry, while at the same, educating individuals that preventative medicine (very ****ty in the US) is attainable (through SCHOOL). How can we teach kids to learn enormous amounts of things, but we can't teach them to eat healthy? Doesn't even make sense!!!!!

    Long story short, making vitamins and supplements prescription would piss so many people off so quickly, that the FDA would be forced to overturn any decision of this nature.....
    rms,

    I'll get back on topic of the thread for a short while. I find your RPM product to look impressive and will definitely give it a go for a couple of months very soon. I emailed for samples yesterday, hopefully there are some left.

    You are right, much of the heat on supplements come from the FDA and big pharmacetutical companies, but these people have been rumored to have strong regulatory legislation in the works for years. That doesn't mean they might not get what they want some time soon.

    But, can you imagine the fallout. If people think that respect for laws and government reached an all-time low during the Prohibition years. This would make that look small. The results would start a hugh black market without even a smattering of regulation, and the effects would flow over into all pharmaceticals. It would be humorous if not for the numerous deaths and illnesses that would to some extent be put on the heads of those who created the mess. So it's not so much that the government isn't capable of totally ignoring population wants or needs, it's just that here the consequences wouldn't take long to show, and heads would roll before the instigators could move on or move out.

    Nope, I don't think the FDA and pharmacies can stop the revolution for long anyway. And, obviously, supplement companies and stores that actually interact with their customers in a serious manner are very much part of that revolution. It creates evangelist customers to help in their marketing, and those intelligent customers are given an input into the possible product decision making process. Very, very cool indeed.

    I love your Hell Yeah thread idea too -- so I'll say my...

    Hell Yeah

    ....right here.



  8. Quote Originally Posted by tuberman View Post
    rms,

    I'll get back on topic of the thread for a short while. I find your RPM product to look impressive and will definitely give it a go for a couple of months very soon. I emailed for samples yesterday, hopefully there are some left.

    You are right, much of the heat on supplements come from the FDA and big pharmacetutical companies, but these people have been rumored to have strong regulatory legislation in the works for years. That doesn't mean they might not get what they want some time soon.

    But, can you imagine the fallout. If people think that respect for laws and government reached an all-time low during the Prohibition years. This would make that look small. The results would start a hugh black market without even a smattering of regulation, and the effects would flow over into all pharmaceticals. It would be humorous if not for the numerous deaths and illnesses that would to some extent be put on the heads of those who created the mess. So it's not so much that the government isn't capable of totally ignoring population wants or needs, it's just that here the consequences wouldn't take long to show, and heads would roll before the instigators could move on or move out.

    Nope, I don't think the FDA and pharmacies can stop the revolution for long anyway. And, obviously, supplement companies and stores that actually interact with their customers in a serious manner are very much part of that revolution. It creates evangelist customers to help in their marketing, and those intelligent customers are given an input into the possible product decision making process. Very, very cool indeed.

    I love your Hell Yeah thread idea too -- so I'll say my...

    Hell Yeah

    ....right here.


    Yeah- got plenty of samples going out this week

    Agreed 100% on everything else- the quickest way to lose support/control is to take something away that people love (Prohibition was an EXCELLENT example), and to make them feel like their freedom as an American is being violated (which in this case, it is).

    One positive out of potential legislation: it is going to change the way that people view the FDA/FTC and the pharmaceutical companies. I think if the right people ask the right questions, a lot of these organizations/companies are going to lose credibility fast- especially if the media gets involved. The media already IS involved, just on the wrong side of the issue. Drug companies spend millions of dollars advertising with major media outlets, and the conflict of interest/bias is STAGGERING. But if enough people stay informed and find out what is really going on, things can change fast!!!
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals

  9. Bumpin'
  10. Question


    Quote Originally Posted by GotTest View Post
    Bumpin'
    Hmm, are you jumpin on the HGW train too? I bet that's why you subbed to this thread... for the icariin studies
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