Older athlete - SD then PP, or PP then SD, or ?

Old Poser

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OK. This is my first post to this board. I’m a mid-40’s strength athlete who competes in Masters-level comps in Olympic lifting and track & field events. I’ve reached a place of diminishing returns for my training efforts and want to juice my performance. So, body building is not a major concern (but of course looking like a freak would be fine.) I’m 5’11” and weigh 235# at about 25# BF. I’d like to lose some fat, but clean and jerking 300# is close and is more important.

I tried 2 weeks of SD at 20mg ed a few months ago. I had some strength gain and muscle gain, but my BP went up and I started to get sick to my stomach. I also got itchy skin and scalp and had a more difficult time sleeping through the night. So, I guess I had some pros and cons with SD.

Several weeks ago I tried Phera plex 10mg ed for 10 days and didn’t notice much of anything.


I am ready to try again.

I currently have several bottles of SD, one of Phera plex and one of Methyl-1-P.

The AX website suggests

PP (Weeks 1-5) 20mg 20mg 20mg 10mg 10mg
SD (Weeks 4-8) 10mg 10mg 20mg 20mg 20mg

I would consider taking 20mg of SD for about two weeks, or up to 3 wks (if I can stand the sides) and then go to PP for another several weeks to ride into PCT. Anybody try this? Any reason not to?

Is methyl-1-P (from Legal Gear) any good? Is it like SD? or PP?

Or should I spring for some prostanozol to use with the PP or to use with the SD?

I have milk thistle, N-Acetyl-Cysteine 1000mg, Milk Thistle 600mg, R[+]-Alpha Lipoic Acid 200mg to run concurrently.

I’ll need some advice regarding PCT.

I'll keep a log so that others can learn from my experience and so that I can get additional advice.


Feedback appreciated.
 

UberPooper1

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ive always thought that 8 weeks of a methyl is pretty rough. id do the pheraplex 20/30/30/30 and prostan 75/100/100/100. that way you get the strength and the ability to lean out. my question is, does legality of the drug matter? if not, orals arent the route to take. :twisted:
 

OldSpice

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pp then sd.
2 weeks worth of bridging is unneccesary. the cycle can be bridged effectively in 4-5 days.
 

Old Poser

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UP,

No, I don't have to worry about testing due to old guy meets. Also, why not SD + Prostan? Do you like PP better?

OS,

Why do you like the PP first?


Any suggs on PCT? I need to use products that are over the counter.
 

OldSpice

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pp will make you retain some water...by taking sd after, it will help dry you out.

prostan can be added, no problem.

nolva is really important during pct. try to get it from one of the board sponsors.
 
zed

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pp at 20/20/30/30 will be good for strength. adding prostan may hinder ability for it has been reported to add pain to joints(shoulders, traps in some). I think youll feel the pp by upping the dose past the 10mg you previouslly tried it at.
 

Old Poser

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Wow! I forgot to add that I also have sublingual testosterone. It is manufactured from yams (or soybeans) for 'compounding pharmacies' for HRT as a 'bioidentical' hormone supplement. Supposedly, it has the exact same structure as the test squeezed out of the balls. I have a subscription for 200mg ED. I have been taking it for less than 30 days. I took 100mg ED a couple of years ago and the effect was to slightly elevate my test blood labs into the 300-400 levels. Those levels are low for a 20 yold by high for a 40yold. The effect is (was) not dramatic. But, probably better than no test supp.

I started adding the PP yesterday.

Day 1 (off day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp wt=234.5# blood pressure= 123/78 , heart rate = 80


Day 2 (training day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp wt=234 # blood pressure= 117/77 , heart rate = 78

Felt strong today. Could be due to taking Wed off.
 
Apowerz6

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to avoid the bloat of pp you could take an atd, or arimidex, that will def take out the water, if any that you would hold.
 

Old Poser

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DAY 3

Day 3 (off day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp wt=234# blood pressure= 121/71 , heart rate = 80

Rode motorcross for about 3 hours

No sides & no feeling of being 'on' yet.


Apowerz6 - Thanks for the reply. What is ATD?
 

Old Poser

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Day 4

Day 4 (light day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp wt=231.5# blood pressure= 123/82 , heart rate = 84

My weight has dropped just a bit. I'd actually be happy to LOSE a little fat and GAIN some muscle and strength.

No noticable changes yet.
 

Old Poser

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Day 5

Day 5 (training day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp wt=231.5# blood pressure= 123/77 , heart rate = 79

My weight is still down just a bit. It's easier than usual to eat cleaner. No increase in appetite.

I feel as if I'm a little more solid, a feeling of a partial pump. But, that could just be placebo.
 
Apowerz6

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Sorry ATD is Novedex Xt or the PCT product by Anabolic Xtreme.
[6, 17-keto-etiocholeve-3-ol tetrahydropyranol],
[3, 17-keto-etiochol-triene],
[3’,5,7-trihydroxy-4’-methoxyflavone]

1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione 25mg
(3,17-keto-etiochol-triene)
this one Inhibit E by SNS (a board sponser)
 

THETEST

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Novedex XT is for PCT after you are done with SD/PP - I am 4 weeks into the 8 weeks of PP and SD. Gained 12 lbs muscle and lost 4 lbs of fat in the 1st 2.5 weeks. Now have moved to SD (10mg in the morning and 10mg at night). Your side effects sound like mine. Be careful about the amount - 10mg per day for the 1st week is good, but then up it. I made the mistake of going to 10mg in the morning and 20 mg at night, and it caught up with me. I got some acne on the back, neck, face - as well as scalp, and got VERY tired mid day. This was on PP. Not on SD, but only 20mg a day. I want to try more, but afraid of Sides. I am growing at a rate of 1/2 lb every 2-3 days, and my strength is through the roof. curls - 3 reps at 120lbs, 6 reps at 110lbs, 12 @ 90, 20 at 70lbs. Chest presses 5 reps with 95lb DBs. Machine roles 205lbs for 6 reps for 1 arm. These are all 10-15 lbs more then I could do 2 weeks ago or ever before in4 yrs of lifting. 5'11", 205lbs late 40s Best of luck to you - eat 5000 calories a day clean - and work out intensely for an hr a day - and watch out!
 

Rage (SoCal)

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Great progress thus far. I'm not sure if you covered this or changed it already but you are doing 5 weeks of PP. I think this is very unecessary. Also, I noticed you are tapering off PP, I don't understand this and I think it may be also, unecessary.
 

THETEST

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It was 3 weeks of PP, 1 week of PP & SD, and now 4 weeks of SD only.
 

Rage (SoCal)

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Good deal, as far as I know...many people stop seeing gains in the third week....you may be able to keep your cycle a week early for your livers safe and still have the same gains.
 
Apowerz6

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Good deal, as far as I know...many people stop seeing gains in the third week....you may be able to keep your cycle a week early for your livers safe and still have the same gains.
According to who? I cannot speak for everyone, but 5 weeks is not a long time per se, and his liver values will not suffer that much from his use of pp, now with the super, thats when he might take a hit. But phera can be used effectively for at least 6 weeks. I dosed mne at 20 for 3 weeks then went 30 for for 5 weeks and gained a dub of weight while on Basic Cuts 3 times a day, and kcal restriction so as for the gains diminishing after 3 weeks :icon_lol: .


And yes i did get bloodwork and my doc was saying how everything was normal, and nothing out of range, and my dos thinks Hydroxycut is satanic and bad so if anything was out of whack he would have called me back quickfast!
 

Old Poser

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Thanks for the comments guys. I'm still learning the terms of the various supps.

This is my first real cycle of AAS and I'm a little fearful of sides, so I'm staying a little conservative. I'm approaching the end of week 1 of PP 20mg ed. I'm considering going to SD after the second week. I've seen on many logs that the SD is good for strength, and I'm not going to go to 30mg of PP. (Just too many comments about sides at that dose.)

My two main interests are increasing strength for meets in the middle and end of February, and losing some fat.

I have some Prostanozol coming in and I've also thought of doing the prost instead of the SD. Any comments? I've seen some people using prost and SD. Any comments?
 

jcam222

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According to who? I cannot speak for everyone, but 5 weeks is not a long time per se, and his liver values will not suffer that much from his use of pp, now with the super, thats when he might take a hit. But phera can be used effectively for at least 6 weeks. I dosed mne at 20 for 3 weeks then went 30 for for 5 weeks and gained a dub of weight while on Basic Cuts 3 times a day, and kcal restriction so as for the gains diminishing after 3 weeks :icon_lol: .


And yes i did get bloodwork and my doc was saying how everything was normal, and nothing out of range, and my dos thinks Hydroxycut is satanic and bad so if anything was out of whack he would have called me back quickfast!
What were your liver and lipid values pre and post 8 week PP cycle? Those are numbers that would be very helpful to many if you dont mind sharing them.
 

Rage (SoCal)

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According to who? I cannot speak for everyone, but 5 weeks is not a long time per se, and his liver values will not suffer that much from his use of pp, now with the super, thats when he might take a hit. But phera can be used effectively for at least 6 weeks. I dosed mne at 20 for 3 weeks then went 30 for for 5 weeks and gained a dub of weight while on Basic Cuts 3 times a day, and kcal restriction so as for the gains diminishing after 3 weeks :icon_lol: .


And yes i did get bloodwork and my doc was saying how everything was normal, and nothing out of range, and my dos thinks Hydroxycut is satanic and bad so if anything was out of whack he would have called me back quickfast!
I was referring the length of his SD protocol, not the whole cycle.
 

Old Poser

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Day 6

I do plan on getting blood work done following PCT.

I had a panel done in the fall and I'll post it later.

Day 6 (off day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp wt=233# blood pressure= 118/81 , heart rate = 83

I actually feel more solid and less fat, but it could be placebo.
 
Apowerz6

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WIll get the cgt valuses from my doc today, and sorry i thought you were talking about Phera Plex
 

Old Poser

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Days 7-10

Day 7 (1/18 Training day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp wt=233# blood pressure= 126/74 , heart rate = 70

Day 8 (1/19 off day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp wt=233.5# blood pressure= 121/84, heart rate = 80


Day 9 (1/20 Training day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp wt=235# blood pressure= 126/80 , heart rate = 80


Day 10 (1/21 off day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp wt=233.5# blood pressure= 125/82 , heart rate = 71

Day 11 (1/22 off day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp wt=234# blood pressure= 123/84 , heart rate = 81


Still haven't noticed any obvious wt gains, but my BP is starting to drift up. I and my wife have noticed that I seem to look a little more trim and less fat. I also feel my muscles look a little more full.
 

Old Poser

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Start SD after 2 weeks?

I'm not really getting anything from the PP. EXCEPT, perhaps a slight loss of appetite along with a little fulness of the muscles. That combo mught make PP a good cutting agent for me. PP may allow me to reduce calories and keep muscles and strength. I may try this at another time.

But for now, since my main goal is to add strength, I'm planning on adding SD at this point. I want my strength gains by mid-Feb and to last through the end of the month for a couple of meets.

How does 2 PP (20mg) + 1 SD (10mg) for 3-7 days and then 1 PP + 2 SD for 3-7 days followed by 2 SD for 10-20 days (depending if I can take the sides.)

I do have some Pro. Should I add to the above or use instead of SD? Any advice?
 

Jameson

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For what it's worth, I found that it took almost two full weeks for the benefits of PP to kick in. I also found it to have far fewer sides than SD. If you do add in the SD, I'd say prepare to eat a lot more, complex carbs in particular, so you don't get hypoglycemic. Good luck.
 

Old Poser

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Jameson,

What were the benefits of PP? Size? Strength?

Once the benefits started to they max or flatten out before you were finished with the cycle?

I agree that I have not seen any noticable sides after 14 days of 20mg ED. Libido still good and I'm sleeping as usual.
 

Jameson

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OP,
I went about things a little differently than some. I kept it short--21 days. I'd rather err on the conservative side because I tend to be a bit paranoid about sides and such. Once I have a little more gear experience under my belt I will consider longer, more complex cycles.
At the end of the three weeks of PP I was up six pounds and the strength had come in nicely. Mind you, none of this was dramatic the way it can be with some other stuff--my bench didn't go up fifty pounds, I didn't gain twenty pounds of muscle--it felt slower and steadier, but I'm ok with that. I'm a bit older than some in these parts (mid 30's) and had been lifting for 14yrs before I tried any of this stuff so just a few solid pounds added here and there with no side effects makes me very happy. I had more dramatic results with other stuff I've tried but I did not like the side effects.
I'd say hang in there with the PP and be careful if you add in the SD at the same time. From my experience I think it's more androgenic than advertised so be on the lookout for that. Good luck with the rest of the cycle.
 

Old Poser

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Days 12-15

Day 12 (1/23 Training day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp wt=233# blood pressure= 122/75 , heart rate = 87

Day 13 (1/24 off day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp wt=233# blood pressure= 125/84, heart rate = 77


Day 14 (1/25 Training day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp, 10mg SD wt=233# blood pressure= 130/85 , heart rate = 81


Day 15 (1/26 Light day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp, 10mg SD wt=233.5# blood pressure= 133/79 , heart rate = 79

Day 16 THIS MORNING (1/27 Training day) 200mg test (sublingual) 20mg pp, 10mg SD wt=234# blood pressure= 134/77 , heart rate = 84


Last night I woke after about 4.5 hrs sleep and couldn't get back to sleep. I usually get 6 or more hours.

My weight may be starting up now that I'm on the SD. My BP appears to be on the rise.

I'm lifting today, so I'll see if strength has gone up any.
 

Old Poser

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Days 16-19

Day 15 (last Friday) was a good day. Hit a PR in the wt room. Measuring strength gains is tough for me since I train for strength and speed with percents. I've got a meet coming up and that will be the real proof.

Days 16-19 My BP has stayed flat and weight has started going up.

Sleeping has been OK and libido is great. Have a nice sense of well being.
 

Old Poser

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Here is what I've done so far:

Days 1-13 PP:20mg sublingual testosterone:200mg

Days 14-17 PP:20mg SD:10mg sublingual testosterone:200mg

Days 18-28 SD:20mg sublingual testosterone:200mg


It's been about 8 days since my last update. The good news is that I appear to be losing fat and gaining muscle. My wife has noticed that my shoulders and arms have filled out some. I'm not sure about strength gains. There may be some small gains, but nothing shocking.

The bad news is that the last few days I've started to feel some stomach upset and severe heartburn at night. I've also started feeling very tired in the afternoons. I think the boys have started to shrink some, but I'm not sure since I don't really check their size all the time and don't have a good idea of their size before the cycle.

I'm strongly considering going to prostanozol for a week to finish off. Something like this:

?? Days 29-32 SD:10mg Pro: 75mg sublingual testosterone:200mg ???

?? Days 33-39 Pro: 100mg sublingual testosterone:200mg ???

Any feedback? Good idea? Bad?

I'm starting to think about PCT. I haven't bought anything yet. Is Retain and Rebound XT enough?
 

Jameson

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I can't really comment on the Prostan from my own experience. Others seem to give it mixed reviews ranging from ineffective to ok as a mild cutter when used in conjunction with SD or PP.

As for PCT, I would suggest having Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) on hand even if you don't use it. Better to have it and not need it I think, than to need it and not have it.

As for actual protocols, you'll find many different opinions concerning serms/atd. I've tried both and liked the atd better, but there are those with more experience than me who would say that's a serious mistake. I'm finishing up PCT with Nolvadex now and I haven't decided yet what route I'll take next time. But even if I go with the ATD next time, I'll still keep the Nolva on hand to ease my gyno paranoia.

Hope the meets go well!
 

Old Poser

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Thanks, Jameson. I'll get the Nolva. there are too many people who say how good it is, even if only to supress gyno paranoia. (I like that.)
 

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Thanks, Jameson. I'll get the Nolva. there are too many people who say how good it is, even if only to supress gyno paranoia. (I like that.)
there is a lot more to nolvadex than just being an anti gyno. pretty much gets ur htpa axis back on track.

i would have increased the PP doses a bit though. I went up to 40mg and another tester went to 50mg with no sides and decent gains.
 

Smoky

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I see no reason to taper off the SD. I may suggest you just drop it and run 2 weeks of Prostan. I found it very nice for sliding into PCT with only the Prostan. I would wonder what the half life is of your test so you start PCT at the right time as well. 2 weeks ending with only Prostan more than likely would sufice even it were a longer ester of sorts. But I am guessing it is a test S based on your dosing as I understand it. Don't know much about sublingual test, so please enlighten me if I am thinking off track.
 

Old Poser

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KRZNA,

I probably will increase the PP next time around. It seems to be slow acting at 20mg ED, but I felt GREAT. Subtle increase in muscle fullness, mood and libido, as well as growing sense of well being. No noticable sides. I'm buying more for use later.

I like SD for a few days, but after about a week I start getting bad heart burn and sleeplessness at night and terrible sleepiness during the day. It makes me feel like ****. So, I'll keep the use low for a kick, but end it before the negative sides kick in.


Smoky,

I did just stop the SD two days ago, and went to 75mg of prostan yesterday. I'm planning on 75mg ED, but thinking of 100mg. Any thoughts?

The sublingual test is formulated by a compounding pharmacy for HRT for men. It is supposed to be bio-identical to the body's test. So the half-life should be short. I take a 100mg tablet in the morning and one at lunch. These pills alone cause an increase in blood test levels. I'm 44 and my test is around 200, so I sought the test from my doctor (an HRT specialist).



This morning I'm feeling a little odd. I feel like there is increased pressurein my muscles, joints, and head. Could this be due to the prostan? Left over from SD?


I'm still not accustomed to the altered states caused by the drugs. I don't know if I'll be interested in taking the AAS for long if this is always going to be a part of the ride.
 

Smoky

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First thing that comes to my mind is blood pressure. Please check it and your supps. Elevated BP is common, and I believe more so for us slightly older contenders. But I will stick my neck out and say I think you are mostly experiencing the Pump from SD lingering in combo with the Prostan. I found a whole other level of hardness with Prostan. Somedays the muscles felt like they would burst from under the skin. I pretty much felt the SD for another week after terminating it. The symptoms you describe are also similar to what I felt at 150mg of Prostan. Stick with the lowest dosage that provided results in my opinion. When I dosed 100+ I broke it out to AM and PM dosing. Have you tried splitting your dose?
 

Old Poser

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I space my dosing for everything I take for a morning and a lunch dose. I'm taking the prostan morn, lunch and afternoon for a total of 75mg.

My blood pressure has been going up steadily since starting SD. I've been taking my BP every morning for > 9 months. I chart my BP and weight every day from measurements taken first thing in the morning. PP does not raise BP, but SD does. For simplicity, I add my systolic and diastolic to make a single number and plot it and calculate a trailing 4 day average. I normally have a total of around 200 (125 + 75). Since taking the SD, the trailing average value has gone up to over 220 (a > 10% increase) for the last couple of days.

I like the feeling of muscle hardness and pump, but not the feeling of a "puffy" head. Right now I feel a little hazy, but no headache.

I'm going to keep it up a few more days and see how I feel as the SD works its way out of my system.

BTW, thanks for the help.
 

Old Poser

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Quick Update:

I ended my cycle at 5 weeks. I'll post some details of how I finished and PCT soon, but I wanted to express my overall pleasure with my primary reults.

1. My goal going into this cycle was performance inhancement, and I got a nice bump. My 2-lift Olympic lifting total went up 10kg (22 lbs) over my last meet. It might not sound like much, but I'm in my mid 40's and my total has only increased by 13 kg over the past 5 years. This is also more than I lifted in my 20's.

2. My meet throwing increased as well. I had a 3" improvement over a PR that is 1.5 years old.

3. Also, my appearance improved as I lost fat and gained muscle. It was noticable to my family and me.


Overall I'm happy with the results, but I'm also glad to be 'off' now. I'm in my second week of PCT. It includes Retain, Reloaded, DHEA, fenugreek, tribulus, liuid nolva, and pGH. My blood pressure has returned to normal and my weight is dropping as I lose more body fat. My sleeping patterns are returning to mormal. So are my balls. I had noticable shinkage, but their coming back. My libido was high most of the cycle, but seems to be a little lower now.

I'll add more specific info soon.
 

Smoky

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Glad to hear your cycle results are pleasing. I felt like the tamox was hindering my libido as well. I am still dealing with a low libido but I think the Rebound Reloaded trial may have something to do with it. Next cycle I plan on running Activate during pct, as others seem to have great result concerning libido. I seem to be sensitive to lowered E levels when my libido is concerned. Press On ...
 

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