retain question
- Thread starter khan-unit
- Start date
Apowerz6
Board Sponsor
Your hubby said it best lil lady...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pistonpump
i read somewhere that cortisol has rebounding effects just like estrogen, anyone know if this is true? So in essence you would just be delaying the inevitable? Still good either way but anyone know if cortisol rebounds?
EDITED for REFERENCE
Although part of this article talks about effects of Cortisol rebounding, it deals with the psychological effects. Personally, I'd be more concerned if for some reason the prolonged suppression would trigger a rise in cortisol after completion of cycle, and subsuquently inhibiting the production of of GH and test levels creating an environment for increased estrogen and fat storage??? It's a viscous circle dammit
ANABOLIC-ANDROGENIC STEROIDS: Mechanism of Action and Effects on Performance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas D. Fahey
Exercise Physiology Laboratory
California State University, Chico
Chico CA 95929 USA
Fahey, T.D. (1998). Anabolic-androgenic steroids: mechanism of action and effects on performance. In: Encyclopedia of Sports Medicine and Science, T.D.Fahey (Editor). Internet Society for Sport Science: Sportscience. 7 March 1998.
How Anabolic Steroids Work
Steroid Receptors
Anti-Catabolic Effects Of Anabolic Steroids
Psychological Effects
Anabolic Steroids and Performance
References
The rebound effect of cortisol and its receptors presents people who use anabolic steroids with several serious problems: (1) psychological addiction is more probable because they become dependent on the drugs. This is because they tend to lose strength and size rapidly when off steroids. To stave off deconditioning, athletes may want to take the drugs for long periods of time to prevent falling behind. (2) Long-term administration increases the chance of serious side-effects. (3) Cortisol suppresses the immune system. This makes steroid users more prone to diseases, such as cold and flu, during the period immediately following steroid administration.
References
American Medical Association, Council on Scientific Affairs. Medical and non-medical uses of anabolic-androgenic steroids. J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 264: 2923-2927, 1990.
Bahrke, M.S., C.E. Yesalosk, and J.E. Wright. Psychological and behavioural effects of endogenous testosterone levels and anabolic-androgenic steroids among males: a review. Sports Med. 10: 303-337, 1990.
Buckley, W.E., C.E. Yasalis, K.E. Friedl, W.A. Anderson, A.L. Streit, and J.E. Wright. Estimated prevalance of anabolic steroid use among male high school seniors. J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 260: 3441-3445, 1988.
Rogozkin, V. Metabolism of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids. Leningrad: Nauka, 1988.
United States Olympic Committee. USOC Drug Education Handbook. Colorado Springs: USOC, 1989.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
newseditor=AT=sportsci.org · webmaster=AT=sportsci.org · Homepage · Copyright ©1997
Webmastered by Jason Nugent. Last updated 19 April 1998.
__________________
ALRI Board Representative
[email protected]
Viperspit's Contest Prep Log
soon to be released: Bad Ass Mass & the new Evolution Stack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pistonpump
i read somewhere that cortisol has rebounding effects just like estrogen, anyone know if this is true? So in essence you would just be delaying the inevitable? Still good either way but anyone know if cortisol rebounds?
EDITED for REFERENCE
Although part of this article talks about effects of Cortisol rebounding, it deals with the psychological effects. Personally, I'd be more concerned if for some reason the prolonged suppression would trigger a rise in cortisol after completion of cycle, and subsuquently inhibiting the production of of GH and test levels creating an environment for increased estrogen and fat storage??? It's a viscous circle dammit
ANABOLIC-ANDROGENIC STEROIDS: Mechanism of Action and Effects on Performance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas D. Fahey
Exercise Physiology Laboratory
California State University, Chico
Chico CA 95929 USA
Fahey, T.D. (1998). Anabolic-androgenic steroids: mechanism of action and effects on performance. In: Encyclopedia of Sports Medicine and Science, T.D.Fahey (Editor). Internet Society for Sport Science: Sportscience. 7 March 1998.
How Anabolic Steroids Work
Steroid Receptors
Anti-Catabolic Effects Of Anabolic Steroids
Psychological Effects
Anabolic Steroids and Performance
References
The rebound effect of cortisol and its receptors presents people who use anabolic steroids with several serious problems: (1) psychological addiction is more probable because they become dependent on the drugs. This is because they tend to lose strength and size rapidly when off steroids. To stave off deconditioning, athletes may want to take the drugs for long periods of time to prevent falling behind. (2) Long-term administration increases the chance of serious side-effects. (3) Cortisol suppresses the immune system. This makes steroid users more prone to diseases, such as cold and flu, during the period immediately following steroid administration.
References
American Medical Association, Council on Scientific Affairs. Medical and non-medical uses of anabolic-androgenic steroids. J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 264: 2923-2927, 1990.
Bahrke, M.S., C.E. Yesalosk, and J.E. Wright. Psychological and behavioural effects of endogenous testosterone levels and anabolic-androgenic steroids among males: a review. Sports Med. 10: 303-337, 1990.
Buckley, W.E., C.E. Yasalis, K.E. Friedl, W.A. Anderson, A.L. Streit, and J.E. Wright. Estimated prevalance of anabolic steroid use among male high school seniors. J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 260: 3441-3445, 1988.
Rogozkin, V. Metabolism of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids. Leningrad: Nauka, 1988.
United States Olympic Committee. USOC Drug Education Handbook. Colorado Springs: USOC, 1989.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
newseditor=AT=sportsci.org · webmaster=AT=sportsci.org · Homepage · Copyright ©1997
Webmastered by Jason Nugent. Last updated 19 April 1998.
__________________
ALRI Board Representative
[email protected]
Viperspit's Contest Prep Log
soon to be released: Bad Ass Mass & the new Evolution Stack.
FitnFirm
Banned
How dare you use my husband against me!!!! :toofunny:
I remember that post now!!!!! But you know I take lean dreams and special tactics for like 16 weeks, then 4 off and the 4 off weeks I used Retain.I saw that and it made me wonder, holy moly!!! Im def gonna ask the big guy about it, I can see a rebound of getting to be a BIG FAT ASS in no time, I cant be having that! lol
I remember that post now!!!!! But you know I take lean dreams and special tactics for like 16 weeks, then 4 off and the 4 off weeks I used Retain.I saw that and it made me wonder, holy moly!!! Im def gonna ask the big guy about it, I can see a rebound of getting to be a BIG FAT ASS in no time, I cant be having that! lol
FitnFirm
Banned
ANABOLIC-ANDROGENIC STEROIDS: Mechanism of Action and Effects on Performance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas D. Fahey
Exercise Physiology Laboratory
California State University, Chico
Chico CA 95929 USA
Fahey, T.D. (1998). Anabolic-androgenic steroids: mechanism of action and effects on performance. In: Encyclopedia of Sports Medicine and Science, T.D.Fahey (Editor). Internet Society for Sport Science: Invalid Link Removed. 7 March 1998.
How Anabolic Steroids Work
Steroid Receptors
Anti-Catabolic Effects Of Anabolic Steroids
Psychological Effects
Anabolic Steroids and Performance
References
Anabolic steroids are drugs that resemble androgenic hormones (sometimes called male hormones) such as testosterone (Figure 1). Athletes consume them in the hope of gaining weight, strength, power, speed, endurance, and aggressiveness. They are widely used by athletes involved in such sports as track and field (mostly the throwing events), weight lifting, and American football. However, in spite of their tremendous popularity, their effectiveness is controversial. The research literature is divided on whether anabolic steroids enhance physical performance. Yet, almost all athletes who consume these substances acclaim their beneficial effects. Many athletes feel that they would not have been as successful without them.
There are several possible reasons for the large differences between experimental findings and empirical observations. An incredible mystique has arisen around these substances, providing fertile ground for the placebo effect. The use of anabolic steroids in the "real world" is considerably different from that in rigidly controlled, double-blind experiments (in a double blind study, neither the subject nor experimenter knows who is taking the drug). Most studies have not used the same drug dosage used by athletes. Institutional safeguards prohibit administration of high dosages of possibly dangerous substances to human subjects. Subjects in research experiments seldom resemble accomplished weight-trained athletes. Under these conditions, we must assess the results of sound research studies, as well as clinical and empirical field observations, in order to obtain a realistic profile of the use, effects on performance, and side effects of these substances.
How Anabolic Steroids Work
Male hormones, principally testosterone, are partially responsible for the tremendous developmental changes that occur during puberty and adolescence. Male hormones have androgenic and anabolic effects. Androgenic effects are changes in primary and secondary sexual characteristics. These include enlargement of the penis and testes, voice changes, hair growth on the face, axilla, and genital areas, and increased aggressiveness. The anabolic effects of androgens include accelerated growth of muscle, bone, and red blood cells, and enhanced neural conduction.
Anabolic steroids have been manufactured to enhance the anabolic properties (tissue building) of the androgens and minimize the androgenic (sex-linked) properties. However, no steroid has eliminated the androgenic effects because the so-called androgenic effects are really anabolic effects in sex-linked tissues. The effects of male hormones on accessory sex glands, genital hair growth, and oiliness of the skin are anabolic processes in those tissues. The steroids with the most potent anabolic effect are also those with the greatest androgenic effect.
Steroid Receptors
Steroid hormones work by stimulation of receptor molecules in muscle cells, which activate specific genes to produce proteins (see Figure 1). They also affect the activation rate of enzyme systems involved in protein metabolism, thus enhancing protein synthesis and inhibiting protein degradation (called an anti-catabolic effect).
Figure 1: How a Steroid Hormone Works
Heavy resistance training seems to be necessary for anabolic steroids to exert any beneficial effect on physical performance. Most research studies that have demonstrated improved performance with anabolic steroids used experienced weight lifters who were capable of training with heavier weights and producing relatively greater muscle tension during exercise than novice subjects. The effectiveness of anabolic steroids is dependent upon unbound receptor sites in muscle. Intense strength training may increase the number of unbound receptor sites. This would increase the effectiveness of anabolic steroids.
Anti-Catabolic Effects Of Anabolic Steroids
Many athletes have said that anabolic steroids help them train harder and recover faster. They also said that they had difficulty making progress (or even holding onto the gains) when they were off the drugs. Anabolic steroids may have an anti-catabolic effect. This means that the drugs may prevent muscle catabolism that often accompanies intense exercise training. Presently, this hypothesis has not been fully proven.
Anabolic steroids may block the effects of hormones such as cortisol involved in tissue breakdown during and after exercise. Anabolic steroids may prevent tissue from breaking down following of an intense work-out. This would speed recovery. Cortisol and related hormones, secreted by the adrenal cortex, also has receptor sites within skeletal muscle cells. Cortisol causes protein breakdown and is secreted during exercise to enhance the use of proteins for fuel and to suppress inflammation that accompanies tissue injury.
Anabolic steroids may block the binding of cortisol to its receptor sites, which would prevent muscle breakdown and enhances recovery. While this is beneficial while the athlete is taking the drug, the effect backfires when he stops taking it. Hormonal adaptations occur in response to the abnormal amount of male hormone present in the athlete's body. Cortisol receptor sites and cortisol secretion from the adrenal cortex increase.
Anabolic steroid use decreases testosterone secretion. People who stop taking steroids are also hampered with less male hormone than usual during the "off" periods. The catabolic effects of cortisol are enhanced when the athlete stops taking the drugs and strength and muscle size are lost at a rapid rate.
The rebound effect of cortisol and its receptors presents people who use anabolic steroids with several serious problems: (1) psychological addiction is more probable because they become dependent on the drugs. This is because they tend to lose strength and size rapidly when off steroids. To stave off deconditioning, athletes may want to take the drugs for long periods of time to prevent falling behind. (2) Long-term administration increases the chance of serious side-effects. (3) Cortisol suppresses the immune system. This makes steroid users more prone to diseases, such as cold and flu, during the period immediately following steroid administration.
Psychological Effects
Some researchers have speculated that the real effect of anabolic steroids is the creation of a "psychosomatic state" characterized by sensations of well being, euphoria, increased aggressiveness and tolerance to stress, allowing the athlete to train harder. Such a psychosomatic state would be more beneficial to experienced weight lifters who have developed the motor skills to exert maximal force during strength training. Diets high in protein and calories may also be important in maximizing the effectiveness of anabolic steroids.
Anabolic Steroids and Performance
The effects of anabolic steroids on physical performance are unclear. Well controlled, double blind studies have rendered conflicting results. In studies showing beneficial effects, body weight increased by an average of about four pounds, lean body weight by about six pounds (fat loss accounts for the discrepancy between gains in lean mass and body weight), bench press increased by about 15 pounds, and squats by about 30 pounds (these values represent the average gains for all studies showing a beneficial effect). Almost all studies have failed to demonstrate a beneficial effect on maximal oxygen consumption or endurance capacity. Anabolic steroid studies have typically lasted six to eight weeks and have usually used relatively untrained subjects.
Most changes in strength during the early part of training are neural: increased strength is mainly due to an improved ability to recruit motor units. Anabolic steroids affect processes associated with protein synthesis in muscle. Studies lasting six weeks (typical study length) would largely reflect neural changes and could easily miss the cellular effects of the drugs.
The gains made by athletes in uncontrolled observations have been much more impressive. Weight gains of thirty or forty pounds, coupled with thirty percent increases in strength, are not unusual. Such case studies lack credibility because of the absence of scientific controls. However, it would be foolish to completely disregard such observations because the "subjects" have been highly trained and motivated athletes.Please see the articles on pharmacology of sport and sports medicine in the countries of the former Soviet Union for more information on anabolic steroids.
References
American Medical Association, Council on Scientific Affairs. Medical and non-medical uses of anabolic-androgenic steroids. J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 264: 2923-2927, 1990.
Bahrke, M.S., C.E. Yesalosk, and J.E. Wright. Psychological and behavioural effects of endogenous testosterone levels and anabolic-androgenic steroids among males: a review. Sports Med. 10: 303-337, 1990.
Buckley, W.E., C.E. Yasalis, K.E. Friedl, W.A. Anderson, A.L. Streit, and J.E. Wright. Estimated prevalance of anabolic steroid use among male high school seniors. J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 260: 3441-3445, 1988.
Rogozkin, V. Metabolism of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids. Leningrad: Nauka, 1988.
United States Olympic Committee. USOC Drug Education Handbook. Colorado Springs: USOC, 1989.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
newseditor=AT=sportsci.org · webmaster=AT=sportsci.org · Homepage · Copyright ©1997
Webmastered by Jason Nugent. Last updated 19 April 1998.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas D. Fahey
Exercise Physiology Laboratory
California State University, Chico
Chico CA 95929 USA
Fahey, T.D. (1998). Anabolic-androgenic steroids: mechanism of action and effects on performance. In: Encyclopedia of Sports Medicine and Science, T.D.Fahey (Editor). Internet Society for Sport Science: Invalid Link Removed. 7 March 1998.
How Anabolic Steroids Work
Steroid Receptors
Anti-Catabolic Effects Of Anabolic Steroids
Psychological Effects
Anabolic Steroids and Performance
References
Anabolic steroids are drugs that resemble androgenic hormones (sometimes called male hormones) such as testosterone (Figure 1). Athletes consume them in the hope of gaining weight, strength, power, speed, endurance, and aggressiveness. They are widely used by athletes involved in such sports as track and field (mostly the throwing events), weight lifting, and American football. However, in spite of their tremendous popularity, their effectiveness is controversial. The research literature is divided on whether anabolic steroids enhance physical performance. Yet, almost all athletes who consume these substances acclaim their beneficial effects. Many athletes feel that they would not have been as successful without them.
There are several possible reasons for the large differences between experimental findings and empirical observations. An incredible mystique has arisen around these substances, providing fertile ground for the placebo effect. The use of anabolic steroids in the "real world" is considerably different from that in rigidly controlled, double-blind experiments (in a double blind study, neither the subject nor experimenter knows who is taking the drug). Most studies have not used the same drug dosage used by athletes. Institutional safeguards prohibit administration of high dosages of possibly dangerous substances to human subjects. Subjects in research experiments seldom resemble accomplished weight-trained athletes. Under these conditions, we must assess the results of sound research studies, as well as clinical and empirical field observations, in order to obtain a realistic profile of the use, effects on performance, and side effects of these substances.
How Anabolic Steroids Work
Male hormones, principally testosterone, are partially responsible for the tremendous developmental changes that occur during puberty and adolescence. Male hormones have androgenic and anabolic effects. Androgenic effects are changes in primary and secondary sexual characteristics. These include enlargement of the penis and testes, voice changes, hair growth on the face, axilla, and genital areas, and increased aggressiveness. The anabolic effects of androgens include accelerated growth of muscle, bone, and red blood cells, and enhanced neural conduction.
Anabolic steroids have been manufactured to enhance the anabolic properties (tissue building) of the androgens and minimize the androgenic (sex-linked) properties. However, no steroid has eliminated the androgenic effects because the so-called androgenic effects are really anabolic effects in sex-linked tissues. The effects of male hormones on accessory sex glands, genital hair growth, and oiliness of the skin are anabolic processes in those tissues. The steroids with the most potent anabolic effect are also those with the greatest androgenic effect.
Steroid Receptors
Steroid hormones work by stimulation of receptor molecules in muscle cells, which activate specific genes to produce proteins (see Figure 1). They also affect the activation rate of enzyme systems involved in protein metabolism, thus enhancing protein synthesis and inhibiting protein degradation (called an anti-catabolic effect).
Figure 1: How a Steroid Hormone Works
Heavy resistance training seems to be necessary for anabolic steroids to exert any beneficial effect on physical performance. Most research studies that have demonstrated improved performance with anabolic steroids used experienced weight lifters who were capable of training with heavier weights and producing relatively greater muscle tension during exercise than novice subjects. The effectiveness of anabolic steroids is dependent upon unbound receptor sites in muscle. Intense strength training may increase the number of unbound receptor sites. This would increase the effectiveness of anabolic steroids.
Anti-Catabolic Effects Of Anabolic Steroids
Many athletes have said that anabolic steroids help them train harder and recover faster. They also said that they had difficulty making progress (or even holding onto the gains) when they were off the drugs. Anabolic steroids may have an anti-catabolic effect. This means that the drugs may prevent muscle catabolism that often accompanies intense exercise training. Presently, this hypothesis has not been fully proven.
Anabolic steroids may block the effects of hormones such as cortisol involved in tissue breakdown during and after exercise. Anabolic steroids may prevent tissue from breaking down following of an intense work-out. This would speed recovery. Cortisol and related hormones, secreted by the adrenal cortex, also has receptor sites within skeletal muscle cells. Cortisol causes protein breakdown and is secreted during exercise to enhance the use of proteins for fuel and to suppress inflammation that accompanies tissue injury.
Anabolic steroids may block the binding of cortisol to its receptor sites, which would prevent muscle breakdown and enhances recovery. While this is beneficial while the athlete is taking the drug, the effect backfires when he stops taking it. Hormonal adaptations occur in response to the abnormal amount of male hormone present in the athlete's body. Cortisol receptor sites and cortisol secretion from the adrenal cortex increase.
Anabolic steroid use decreases testosterone secretion. People who stop taking steroids are also hampered with less male hormone than usual during the "off" periods. The catabolic effects of cortisol are enhanced when the athlete stops taking the drugs and strength and muscle size are lost at a rapid rate.
The rebound effect of cortisol and its receptors presents people who use anabolic steroids with several serious problems: (1) psychological addiction is more probable because they become dependent on the drugs. This is because they tend to lose strength and size rapidly when off steroids. To stave off deconditioning, athletes may want to take the drugs for long periods of time to prevent falling behind. (2) Long-term administration increases the chance of serious side-effects. (3) Cortisol suppresses the immune system. This makes steroid users more prone to diseases, such as cold and flu, during the period immediately following steroid administration.
Psychological Effects
Some researchers have speculated that the real effect of anabolic steroids is the creation of a "psychosomatic state" characterized by sensations of well being, euphoria, increased aggressiveness and tolerance to stress, allowing the athlete to train harder. Such a psychosomatic state would be more beneficial to experienced weight lifters who have developed the motor skills to exert maximal force during strength training. Diets high in protein and calories may also be important in maximizing the effectiveness of anabolic steroids.
Anabolic Steroids and Performance
The effects of anabolic steroids on physical performance are unclear. Well controlled, double blind studies have rendered conflicting results. In studies showing beneficial effects, body weight increased by an average of about four pounds, lean body weight by about six pounds (fat loss accounts for the discrepancy between gains in lean mass and body weight), bench press increased by about 15 pounds, and squats by about 30 pounds (these values represent the average gains for all studies showing a beneficial effect). Almost all studies have failed to demonstrate a beneficial effect on maximal oxygen consumption or endurance capacity. Anabolic steroid studies have typically lasted six to eight weeks and have usually used relatively untrained subjects.
Most changes in strength during the early part of training are neural: increased strength is mainly due to an improved ability to recruit motor units. Anabolic steroids affect processes associated with protein synthesis in muscle. Studies lasting six weeks (typical study length) would largely reflect neural changes and could easily miss the cellular effects of the drugs.
The gains made by athletes in uncontrolled observations have been much more impressive. Weight gains of thirty or forty pounds, coupled with thirty percent increases in strength, are not unusual. Such case studies lack credibility because of the absence of scientific controls. However, it would be foolish to completely disregard such observations because the "subjects" have been highly trained and motivated athletes.Please see the articles on pharmacology of sport and sports medicine in the countries of the former Soviet Union for more information on anabolic steroids.
References
American Medical Association, Council on Scientific Affairs. Medical and non-medical uses of anabolic-androgenic steroids. J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 264: 2923-2927, 1990.
Bahrke, M.S., C.E. Yesalosk, and J.E. Wright. Psychological and behavioural effects of endogenous testosterone levels and anabolic-androgenic steroids among males: a review. Sports Med. 10: 303-337, 1990.
Buckley, W.E., C.E. Yasalis, K.E. Friedl, W.A. Anderson, A.L. Streit, and J.E. Wright. Estimated prevalance of anabolic steroid use among male high school seniors. J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 260: 3441-3445, 1988.
Rogozkin, V. Metabolism of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids. Leningrad: Nauka, 1988.
United States Olympic Committee. USOC Drug Education Handbook. Colorado Springs: USOC, 1989.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
newseditor=AT=sportsci.org · webmaster=AT=sportsci.org · Homepage · Copyright ©1997
Webmastered by Jason Nugent. Last updated 19 April 1998.
Distilled Water
Board Sponsor
When should u dose retain? Ive heard all before bed, others say evenly throuout the day. Im starting P.C.T 2maro and im going to tapper from 3/2/1/1 and was just wondering
Distilled Water
Board Sponsor
khan-unit said:
Dont be...just tapper down the dose and u'll be good
khan-unit
Banned
oh i did. 3 shakes and 3 meals a day. the shake consists of 2 scoops a whey, 2 cups milk and 1 cup of oatmeal for slow burning carbs and a different source of protein. it also puts solids in your stomach so you dont feel like crap and it taste like coco pebbles AND it has a whopping 750 calories per shake. The meals consists of rice, steamed veggies and costco chicken breast. Every weak il go up 100 calories so my body stays at a constant shock too.
khan-unit
Banned
i am 19 8.5% bodyfat, 191 pounds five years a go i was an ectomorph weighing at 108 pounds. I am used to powerlifting style training because i did a lot of that in highschool (2005 mens 181 mullen invitational, 2nd in state of colorado). I know about diet ive researched for a while and read arnies book like a billion times lol and i have tested on all supplements from phosphagen to superdrol m1t and masterdrol.
sublimejeh
Well-known member
FnF I'm 18 (really!) will you give me information on supplements 
FitnFirm
Banned
khan-unit said:im confused...did i say something wrong, am i not in good enough shape for expert advice?
Dont be silly, what gave you that idea!!!! The issue I have now is that you are not 21, Our products are intended for ages 21 and older, so now I dont feel comfortable encouraging you to use them. Only because I care about your health. However, if you choose to use them anyway, I will be there for you to answer questions during your cycle.
sublimejeh
Well-known member
:nono: :donut:
Bad FnF! Recommending silly things!
Bad FnF! Recommending silly things!
sublimejeh
Well-known member
No, FnF recommends:
izza: + :hot: + :donut: :food: = :dance:
izza: + :hot: + :donut: :food: = :dance:
sublimejeh
Well-known member
Wooohooo