Cycle Support: RYR

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    Cycle Support: RYR


    What is your response to this? Do you have any plans to remove RYR from Cycle Support?

    Red Yeast Rice - It’s Storied Past and why you SHOULDN’T use it!
    April 29, 2007

    Author’s Note: I have summarized the various Red Yeast Rice components from post cycle therapy: A Clinician’s View (ACV) below. I think this is a good summary of my collective thoughts on Red Yeast Rice plus invites you to look at the storied past of compounds like this in making decisions on what to employ when considering support supplementation, whether it be cholesterol-support (as in this instance), or otherwise.

    HISTORY & SUGGESTION
    post cycle therapy: ACV Part II: “PRIMARY GOAL: HIGH LDL REDUCTION

    Red Yeast Rice


    The red yeast (Monascus purpureus) fermented on rice has been used in China for its health-promoting effects for over 2000 years. This yeast is the source of a small group of compounds known as monacolins that can lower cholesterol levels by blocking a key enzyme in the liver. In fact, the cholesterol-lowering drug Mevacor, the trade name for the compound lovastatin, also known as monacolin K, one of the key monocolins in red yeast rice extract.

    The marketing of Cholestin (an extract of red yeast fermented on rice, standardized for monacolin content) as a dietary supplement in the United States has caused quite a controversy since 1997. Because it contains a natural source of a prescription drug, the FDA and the maker of Mevacor, Merck, tried to prohibit the sale of Cholestin and other red yeast rice extracts as a dietary supplement. The FDA’s ruling against Cholestin was temporarily reversed in March 1999, but two years later the FDAs ruling was upheld. Nonetheless, many red yeast rice products remain on the market.

    These products, like their prescription counterparts, clearly are effective in lowering cholesterol levels. Over twenty clinical trials conducted in China involving thousands of subjects have shown red yeast rice extract to effectively lower high blood cholesterol levels by roughly 20 percent while raising protective HDL cholesterol by about 18 percent. A study conducted at the UCLA Center for Human Nutrition under the direction of David Herber, MD, has also demonstrated positive results. The double-blind, placebo-controlled study consisted of 83 healthy subjects with a cholesterol level between 200 and 239 mg/dl. Subjects were treated with 2.4 g of red yeast rice extract (Cholestin) supplying 9.6 mg of monacolins per day or a placebo. Both groups were instructed to maintain a diet of 30 percent fat with less than 10 percent saturated fat and less than 300 mg of cholesterol. On average, cholesterol decreased in the Cholestin group from 254 to 208 mg/dl by eight weeks, with no change in the placebo group.

    While these results sound pretty good and from the outside looking in offer seeming support for this compound, the post-cycle time frame is NOT the time to employ potential use of this type of product.

    First, it is a huge strike with those trying to use it with liver protectants post-C17 alkylated products. Liver enzyme elevations are reported as the number one side effect (3.4%). While this may not be a concern in the normal circumstance, the post-cycle period remains a unique time of recoup for all body organs – the liver perhaps having endured the biggest beating. Second, the development of muscle pains – perhaps indicative of a rare, but serious side effect known as rhabdomyolysis, are clearly evident in a few select cases (1%) of the general population. It is difficult to discern between post-workout DOMS and actual muscle pain due to this condition.

    Red Yeast Rice like other statin drugs reduces the levels of Coenzyme Q10 at an alarming rate. With already depleted levels in many bodybuilders, this could play the role of a significant detriment to the well-being and attempts at regaining homeostatic environments seen prior to the cycle’s initiation. Niacin products at a dosage of 500 mg three times per day potentiates the effects of Red Yeast Rice and if employing either, it is strongly advised to avoid concurrent therapy. Interestingly enough, I will report a case of hepatic sides in an unknowing post-cycle patient using a Multi-Vitamin (containing Niacin products) and self-medicating with Red Yeast Rice later in this series. In addition, there are far too many drug-herb interactions – perhaps beyond the scope of this article to discuss, but it is wise to discuss the use of this product with your own examining physician if you are taking ANY prescription medications. I personally strongly advise AGAINST use of Red Yeast Rice at any point on or around a cycle.”

    THE ORIGINAL COMPOUND IN ACTION (EFFICACY DEFINED)

    PCT: ACV Part III:
    “PRIMARY GOAL: HIGH LDL REDUCTION


    Red Yeast Rice
    EVIDENCE-BASED EFFICACY: ONLY two of the more than two dozen clinical studies using red yeast rice were done in the United States; the rest have been done in China. Taken as a whole, the studies have found that red yeast rice can lower cholesterol by 16 to 26 percent as well as lower triglyceride levels and raise beneficial HDL cholesterol. A recent study found that red yeast rice lowered blood cholesterol an average of 40 points over a twelve-week period compared to just 5 points in people who only made dietary changes. Benefits are greatest in people with total cholesterol levels above 200, the cutoff point of desirable cholesterol set by the American Heart Association.

    FORMS & DOSAGES: The standard dose is two 600 mg capsules twice a day. It is sold in capsule form at pharmacies and health food stores, and it costs ONLY a fraction of what prescription statin drugs cost. Red Yeast Rice is recommended for people with borderline-high cholesterol levels (200 – 240) and NO other risk factors for heart disease. A low-fat diet is also recommended while taking the supplement. To avoid stomach upset, it should be taken with fluid or fluids.

    POTENTIAL SIDE EFFECTS / INTERACTIONS: Minor side effects reported include heartburn, bloating, and dizziness. Because of its similarity to statin drugs, which should NOT be taken with niacin, erythromycin, cyclosporin, fibrates or other statin drugs, the same cautions should be applied to red yeast rice. Red yeast rice could cause some of the same side effects as statin drugs, including elevated liver enzymes (which is what you are trying to return to normal in the post cycle period), damage to skeletal muscle, and a possible increased risk of cancer! Individuals with severe liver or kidney damage need avoid this compound like the plague. NO ONE UNDER THE AGE OF 21 SHOULD TAKE RED YEAST RICE.

    Dinoiii’s tip(s):
    (1) Cholestin is the ONLY red yeast rice product that is standardized and that has been shown to be effective in clinical trials.”

    THE STORIED PAST
    From the article PCT:ACV III and 1/2:


    “Q: Hey dinoiii, I thought that HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors like statin drugs were actually the best option in prevention of high cholesterol - in fact, contributing to a DECEASED MORTALITY in these kind of patients. Would not something like Red Yeast Rice be superior to niacin in our battle against cholesterol that is associated with cycle use.

    A: I actually think this to be a good question because the mortality data is simply not there for other items (niacin being one) in the battle against cholesterol value changes - that is a great point. One of the reasons I have actually sided myself against Red Yeast Rice (and I cannot stress this point enough) is due to the changes specific to a predominance of cycles (i.e. - decreased HDL) as well as side effect profiles and the ability to guarantee actual standardization.

    Red Yeast Rice has an interesting history. Its actually a product of yeast (Monascus purpureus) grown on rice and serves as a dietary staple in some Asian countries. It contains several compounds as I said in parts II and III known as “monocolins,” substances known to inhibit cholesterol synthesis. It is one of these, monocolin K, that has gained all the attention in the matter you describe - because it is a very potent inhibitor of HMG-CoA reductase and is the very same thing known as a common statin drug - lovastatin (Mevacor) - but this is where the problem begins.

    Red Yeast Rice Extract (RYRE) has been sold as a natural cholesterol-lowering agent in over-the-counter supplements such as Cholestin. However, there has been legal and industrial dispute as to whether RYR is a drug or dietary supplement, involving the manufacturer of Cholestin (Pharmanex, Inc.), the FDA and the pharmaceutical industry (particularly makers of HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors/statins). It has actually been quite comical yet coninued interest by those such as myself because it is a battle that actually had more implication on differences between the supplement industry and pharmaceutics than the ole prohormone and ephedra wars of today as many are concerned of supplements as an industry holding any viability.

    We have to trace back to the 1970s to see where human studies reporting Red Yeast Rice lowers blood cholesterol levels, LDL (”bad” cholesterol) and triglycerides. The pharmaceutic industry responded by bringing to market Mevacor and it was years later and then low and behold government/FDA obviously favors in support of the drug company - which did IN NO WAY own the novelty of such a compound like this.

    In March 2001, a U.S. District Court ruled that the RYRE product Cholestin contains the same chemical as the prescription med. HUH? This is obviously a chicken and egg argument and the government wins - long-live democracy! How can a company like Pharmanex respond? They have since reformulated their product with different ingredients (still marketing under the same name - cholestin), such as policosanol [according to their website, they have NO more RYR in the product in fact, but this is a simple claim which may have lent some credibility to policosanol efficacy - but that latter part is just an assumption]. Other products claim RYRE, however, these products may NOT be standardized and I can bet you if makers of Mevacor thought they did - the attacks would be the same.

    The side effects with this product CANNOT be judged appropriately by the average RYRE taker I am afraid and when bodybuilders engage in taking it, the liver side effects are too high (namely in the realm of C17 alkylated products) and it would be hard to judge Rhabdomyolysis when - if you are in the process of coming off of increasing poundages with DOMS playing a direct role - early outward signs of this potentially deadly side effect simply can be hidden. I STRONGLY SUGGEST AGAINST ITS USE IN THE GREATER SENSE OF THE PRODUCT VERSUS ANY POTENTIAL OR MORBIDITY/MORTALITY POTENTIAL. It may contribute just as easy to higher morbidity/mortality as it may alter it. As far as I am concerned - the niacin (no-flush protocol) I have initroduced in parts II and III rules.”

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    hmmmm....
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    Phrost,

    Thank you for your post. We listen to our customers and this is why we offer two versions of Cycle Support one WITH RYR and withOUT RYR. Instead of the RYR there is 1300 grams of plant sterols per daily dose.


    Thanks again.


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    Quote Originally Posted by CROWLER View Post
    Phrost,

    Thank you for your post. We listen to our customers and this is why we offer two versions of Cycle Support one WITH RYR and withOUT RYR. Instead of the RYR there is 1300 grams of plant sterols per daily dose.


    Thanks again.


    CROWLER
    I can't seem to find the one without the RYR. I looked on the site and at nutraplanet.
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    Heyyyyyyyy already someone else interested in the new product EXCELLENT Nutra Planet doesn't currently carry it BUTTTTTTT if you suggest it to them . . .

    You can contact me directly at CROWLER@AnabolicInnovations.co m and I will take care of you.




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    Good stuff and I'll will ask when nutra will get it in. I think it will sell as well as the original. I doubt that the ryr will hurt but I'm the super paranoid type and will feel better using the version without ryr.
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    RYR was initially put in to lower cholesterol levels synergistically with the other ingredients. It was well known that RYR raises liver values, however, the dosage employed was half that of the recommended dosage of most brands on the market, not to mention the fact that 2 very potent liver protectants were also used to bring the liver values back to normal.

    At 1200mg of RYR you don't have to worry too much about liver values going out of whack, especially with NAC and Milk Thistle along side of it. People take massive dosages of Lipitor, such as my father, and he drinks on the weekends. His liver values, although elevated, are not very far outside of normal range.

    I am not sure why people worry so much about these claims though. I say this because heart disease is the number 1 killer in America. It is above cancer, car accidents, etc etc etc. Atherosclerosis and arteriosclerosis are the main reasons for this. Although arteriosclerosis cannot really be prevented, atherosclerosis is the buildup around the arteries and veins of the body. These blockups are caused in large part by cholesterol buildup and prevent enough oxygen from reaching the heart and cause a heart attack.

    Compare that to what we are referring to. 1200mg of RYR? You ever been to a college campus lol? They binge drink for 5 years straight, liver values, again might be elevated, but the liver is much more resilient than people assume sometimes.
    Last edited by LakeMountD; 07-07-2007 at 10:28 AM.
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    ^^^I think he's done this before!
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49
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    Thanks Lake Mont and Yeahright.

    Very interesting.

    The Mayo Clinic gives Red Yeast Rice an
    A Strong scientific evidence for this use in lowering Cholesterol


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    I'd like the one without RRY to take with oral cycles and the one with RRY to take with injectable only cycles.

    I feel like my liver doesn't need the additional stress when using methyls.
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    GREAT to hear the interest in this! Thanks

    You can reach me directly at CROWLER@AnabolicInnovations.co m


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    Seeing how I am being quoted in the initial post, I will offer up retort (although I do NOT post here often) to that which has been suggested thus far...with appropriate corrections at time.

    First and foremost, a thank you to Crowler for our interaction in the past via email (I did send you another one) with this as one of the topics on the agenda.


    Now, on to the "sciency" stuff...

    During post-cycle people tend to want to correct their mishapen cholesterol values (and tend to do so too quickly and erroneously). This is one of the biggest issues I have with clients/patients that come in with their endogenous hormones thrown out of whack and now, there ideology is to use products that inhibit androgenic substrate (i.e. - cholesterol). This is NOT good practice in the immediate post-cycle realm.

    Dosing was mentioned in this thread. While I can appreciate the half dose argument (comparably to other marketed products)...when you start "halving" things, you start hampering efficacy. Monocolin concentration is important for inhbition if any inhibition is to be had (which NO COMPANY CAN DO)...let's keep this thread honest now!!!

    Another comment that was suggested was that NAC and Milk Thistle can offer virtual "protection" and this too is a falacy. This is NOT a fault of supplement companies per se, but more supply side rationale. Over 80% of Milk Thistle products were found on independent 3rd-party testing to be inappropriately labeled. Uhhh, are we still sure about all that protection being offered? How are you guaranteeing me correct labeling and what is the realm of going about assuring this? (btw: those are completely rhetoric because you can't do it)

    The suggestion about heart disease above...c'mon! This is a general comment with no reality basing. The predominant change during a cycle is lowering of HDL...leave cholesterol alone; raise HDL and USE NIACIN!!! Christ.

    As far as the college campus suggestion - you simply don't see the other side of the coin and I'll assure you that the medical wards are a place you see that side. I request that you simply NOT make such erroneous assumption about the masses and calculate something like the addition of a heavy oral cycle vs. the college binge drinker.

    On to the MAYO Clinic offering...in their most recent publication entitled "Guide to Alternative Medicine 2007" RYR actually received a "yellow light" (vs. a green) based on my aforementioned suggestion coupled with the fact that the "A" rating in the thread in question is based on the Natural Standard and NOT THE MAYO CLINIC...why, because they are using the original Cholestin studies in their evalution as I have this book sitting in front of me as well. They do not simply throw caution to the wind and interestingly enough none of these bodies speak avidly about cholesterol correction in the potentially HPTA-altered subject! (Shocking, I am sure)


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    I do appreciate an intelligent response from a professional. However, some of what you are saying above is based off statistics. What I mean is where you speak of 3rd party testing and mislabeling of ingredients such as Milk Thistle. You never argued against milk thistle working, which it does, and I can provide ample studies to prove it, however, you do state that you don't feel people should use this for protection because of the "chance" that it might be under dosed. I have enough trust in CROWLER to know that he gets quality ingredients. Needless to say do you have a better idea for people looking for a way to correct their liver values? I feel it is important to note that it is better you do SOMETHING than NOTHING.

    The use of Niacin is good and back when I worked for CROWLER (well over a year ago) we thought of putting that in there. However, flush free Niacin provides absolutely 0 help and we didn't use regular Niacin since some people complained of the flushing effect, which in some can be quite troublesome.

    And the comment where you state that the predominant effect of a steroid cycle is HDL being lowered?! I agree some cause HDL to absolutely plummet (i.e. Superdrol), however, have you seen blood work from these people?! Their LDL skyrockets, up around the 200 range in some people, up about 30-40 points form their pre cycle blood work. Take a look at Beelzebub's blood work. Cycle Support brought his liver values back into check and his cholesterol was brought down very very significantly. The product works, my blood work as well has confirmed that.

    I do agree with efficacy falling significantly when halving dosages and lot of these products don't work on a linear relationship with benefit. But again it still helps and to a degree where there is less of a worry of liver values being altered. As a healthcare professional you should know how Atorvastatin is on the liver, and again I use the argument of my father who I get blood work on very frequently. He has used both 40 and 80 mg dosages and although his liver values were altered, it wasn't what I would say is out of the ordinary for those kinds of dosages. 1200mg of RYR in comparison? This isn't even an argument, VASTLY different.

    The college binge drinker analogy was just to show people how resilient the liver is and that a 4 week oral cycle, which causes some values to go out of whack, in some cases very significantly, can be improved by using Cycle Support. Is there a double blind placebo controlled study? Nope. Have we gotten multiple subjects to get blood work done pre and post cycle as well as post CS? Yep. Again I only state these things because I am a big advocate of safety. I rather people use LS or CS and stay healthier than not use anything at all. I don't make any commission off of sales and haven't been affiliated with AI in a very long time, so this by no means is a response that is trying to get people to spend massive amounts of money on buying CS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    Needless to say do you have a better idea for people looking for a way to correct their liver values?

    The use of Niacin is good and back when I worked for CROWLER (well over a year ago) we thought of putting that in there. However, flush free Niacin provides absolutely 0 help and we didn't use regular Niacin since some people complained of the flushing effect, which in some can be quite troublesome.
    Thanks for replying D. Two quick comments here, I know Dinoiii is a big advocate of SAMe, but I don't think that would be feasible cost wise or possible to use in a powder. Maybe TMG could be used? In regards to the niacin I actually enjoy the flush. You said the flush free provides no benefits. Would using a time released formula like the following work?
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    Quote Originally Posted by phrost View Post
    Thanks for replying D. Two quick comments here, I know Dinoiii is a big advocate of SAMe, but I don't think that would be feasible cost wise or possible to use in a powder. Maybe TMG could be used? In regards to the niacin I actually enjoy the flush. You said the flush free provides no benefits. Would using a time released formula like the following work?
    If you are referring to time released regular niacin than yes, the studies that I have studied suggest that this will indeed work very well. The studies do suggest that hepatoxicity from niacin is greater with the slow released formulas though.

    The problem with flush free niacin is it does not contain any nicotinic acid, which is the main reason lipids are lowered with regular niacin.

    On average, immediate-release niacin preparations cost $7.10 per month, sustained-release preparations cost $9.75 per month, and no-flush preparations cost $21.70 per month. The average content of free nicotinic acid was 520.4 mg for immediate-release niacin, 502.6 mg for sustained-release niacin, and 0 for no-flush niacin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    If you are referring to time released regular niacin than yes, the studies that I have studied suggest that this will indeed work very well. The studies do suggest that hepatoxicity from niacin is greater with the slow released formulas though.

    The problem with flush free niacin is it does not contain any nicotinic acid, which is the main reason lipids are lowered with regular niacin.

    On average, immediate-release niacin preparations cost $7.10 per month, sustained-release preparations cost $9.75 per month, and no-flush preparations cost $21.70 per month. The average content of free nicotinic acid was 520.4 mg for immediate-release niacin, 502.6 mg for sustained-release niacin, and 0 for no-flush niacin.
    Hmm, after reading some more it looks like time-released is not the way to go because of potential toxicity issues like you mentioned. It also looks like high doses increase insulin sensitivity and cause a reduction in fat metabolism resulting in lower exercise endurance. I also read it elevates homocysteine levels, but that is something tmg should help lower.

    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Sep;91(9):3303-9.
    Impaired beta-cell function in human aging: response to nicotinic acid-induced insulin resistance.

    Chang AM, Smith MJ, Galecki AT, Bloem CJ, Halter JB.
    5570 MSRB II, 1150 West Medical Center Drive, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-0678, USA. annchang@umich.edu

    CONTEXT: Glucose tolerance declines with age and may involve impaired beta-cell sensitivity to glucose and beta-cell compensation for insulin resistance. OBJECTIVE: We investigated beta-cell sensitivity to glucose and beta-cell compensation for nicotinic acid-induced insulin resistance in young (age <35 yr) people with normal glucose tolerance (NGT) and old (age >60 yr) people with NGT and impaired glucose tolerance (IGT). DESIGN/PATIENTS/SETTING/INTERVENTION: Fifteen young NGT, 16 old NGT, and 14 old IGT were randomized to 2-wk treatment with nicotinic acid or placebo in a double-blind, crossover study in a university medical setting. At the end of each treatment period, participants had a frequently sampled iv glucose tolerance test and ramp clamp, in which insulin secretion rates (ISR) were determined in response to a matched 5-10 mm glucose stimulus. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Insulin sensitivity (S(I)), acute insulin response to iv glucose (AIRg), and disposition index (AIRg x S(I), or beta-cell compensation for insulin resistance) from frequently sampled iv glucose tolerance testing, and ISR area under the curve (or beta-cell sensitivity to glucose) from ramp clamp were determined. RESULTS: Progressive impairments in insulin secretion as assessed by AIRg, disposition index, and ISR area under the curve were identified in older people with NGT, with more marked defects in older people with IGT. Nicotinic acid treatment significantly reduced S(I) in all groups. beta-Cell compensation for nicotinic acid-induced insulin resistance was incomplete in all three groups, with greater defects in the two older groups. CONCLUSIONS: Human aging is associated with impaired beta-cell sensitivity to glucose and impaired beta-cell compensation to insulin resistance.

    ERGOGENIC EFFECT OF GLYCINE AND NIACIN SEPARATELY AND IN COMBINATION.
    Res Q. 1964 Oct;35:SUPPL:389-92.
    HILSENDAGER D, KARPOVICH PV.

    EFFECT OF NICOTINIC ACID ON THE TURNOVER RATE AND OXIDATION OF THE FREE FATTY ACIDS OF PLASMA IN MAN DURING EXERCISE.
    Metabolism. 1963 Sep;12:837-45.
    CARLSON LA, HAVEL RJ, EKELUND LG, HOLMGREN A.

    Effect of nicotinic acid on physical working capacity and on metabolism of muscle glycogen in man.
    J Appl Physiol. 1969 Feb;26(2):170-6.
    Bergstrom J, Hultman E, Jorfeldt L, Pernow B, Wahren J.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    I do appreciate an intelligent response from a professional. However, some of what you are saying above is based off statistics. What I mean is where you speak of 3rd party testing and mislabeling of ingredients such as Milk Thistle.
    The aforementioned was ok until the following...

    You never argued against milk thistle working, which it does, and I can provide ample studies to prove it, however, you do state that you don't feel people should use this for protection because of the "chance" that it might be under dosed.
    You CANNOT offer studies to "PROVE" anything...merely support.

    A study we performed on people coming off of C17 alkylated cpd usage (2nd generation compounds though, not the current set...but we are currently working on this)...SAMe provided a 2.5 day (on average return to baseline of elevated LFTs than did Milk Thistle (unfortunately, the third party testing had NOT been done at that point...which could obviously imparted issue with the effects seen...I am obviously unsure, but we did do initial test batches). Anyway, I will get to this point in my next response a bit further.


    I have enough trust in CROWLER to know that he gets quality ingredients. Needless to say do you have a better idea for people looking for a way to correct their liver values? I feel it is important to note that it is better you do SOMETHING than NOTHING.
    First and foremost, my interactions with Crowler are certainly in their infancy and they have been essentially positive. You are in a position to trust him perhaps more - no doubt - I acknowledge this point readily. I am not throwing issue out there with that nor have I seen CoAs (though we know the issues with these and their own credibility on this board I would presume - again, unfortunate, but I do not post here often). Based on the results though of the third party testing, my concerns are that even batches that once tested "ok" per labeling failed to a significant degree now...this is a supply-side issue, NOT the actual companies. Make no mistake. I am NOT chastizing companies - I will leave that for other message boards' members (I don't have the time to get caught in that kind of thing).

    But on basis of efficacy alone, the suggestion would look as follows:

    SAMe > Milk Thistle > NAC (oral or PO dosing for those familiar; NAC has its issues with oral bioavailability)

    So, NO ... I AM NOT AN ADVOCATE OF SIMPLY GRINNING AND BEARING IT as far as the liver is concerned, just more prudent.



    The use of Niacin is good and back when I worked for CROWLER (well over a year ago) we thought of putting that in there. However, flush free Niacin provides absolutely 0 help and we didn't use regular Niacin since some people complained of the flushing effect, which in some can be quite troublesome.
    Couple of things here:

    You suggest that flush-free niacing offers no help, but I would certainly beg to differ (this is one of those anecdotal predictors that has shown quite the contrary in results, but I'll get to this in a second).

    The flush-free is called inositol hexaniacinate -or- inositol nicotinate, etc... No matter, the basics are that there are 6 nicotinic acid molecules cross-linked with an inositol - what the issue is is that you need a COMBO, one doesn't replace the other ... what I mean is that if you are in a state waiting for hydrolysis to take place (yielding free nicotinic acid and inositol), there are portions of time virtually "UN" covered as far as effect is concerned while you are waiting for a slow 10-12 hour effect...fortunately, the lipid alterations have been shown in the lab to be addressed with cummulative rather than quantitative dosing protocols. So, you can very much guard against a lot of this, the dosing paramters however (rather than the side effects) now become the impedence to compliance. Is it a loss? Not really...you are merely going to have to dose accordingly (which makes it interesting in a combo).



    And the comment where you state that the predominant effect of a steroid cycle is HDL being lowered?! I agree some cause HDL to absolutely plummet (i.e. Superdrol), however, have you seen blood work from these people?!
    The direct answer: yes. My company deals with 6,123 clients to date with an approximated 30% using some sort of ergogenic anabolic (likely half of which are of the C17 alkylated variety).




    Their LDL skyrockets, up around the 200 range in some people, up about 30-40 points form their pre cycle blood work.
    The standard reduction is about 25% for LDL with niacin therapy. That said, the HDL increases sit at anywhere from 15-30% (generally higher end too). One could presume by the basic function of HDL (essential removal of the bad cholesterol) alone that the LDL is STILL NOT the primary defect and that the LDL reduction that tends to occur is likely correlative to a large degree with HDL increases.

    The issue with inositol hexaniacinate is that many of the studies in the setting of dyslipidemia are sparse, involve small numbers of patients, and most have focused on the benefit of this product in combination with clofibrate. Still, we can use additional data to iron out what effects are seen and we have seen this first hand in the lab. But - again, I will say more with my next quote response.



    Take a look at Beelzebub's blood work. Cycle Support brought his liver values back into check and his cholesterol was brought down very very significantly. The product works, my blood work as well has confirmed that.
    Perhaps you could offer a link?

    While I have NOT seen his work...significant cholesterol changes are also accounted for by simple cessation of the cycle (likely at a delayed frequency, so my impression will be dependent upon times the tests were taken amongst other variables). Still my argument further encourages keeping an eye on rapid correction of lipid values and in the process depletion of androgenic precursor amidst cholesterol cascades when you have someone with a potentially altered HPTA. The test reduction alone (and potential hypogonadal state) is something that is likely also dictating cholesterol value increases as well. Just be careful.



    I do agree with efficacy falling significantly when halving dosages and lot of these products don't work on a linear relationship with benefit. But again it still helps and to a degree where there is less of a worry of liver values being altered.
    Sometimes reduced efficacy isn't all that becomes evident however - and it turns into NO efficacy at the drop of a dime.




    As a healthcare professional you should know how Atorvastatin is on the liver, and again I use the argument of my father who I get blood work on very frequently. He has used both 40 and 80 mg dosages and although his liver values were altered, it wasn't what I would say is out of the ordinary for those kinds of dosages. 1200mg of RYR in comparison? This isn't even an argument, VASTLY different.
    My arguments AGAINST statin drugs is a debate for another time. HA! I am NOT a pro-statin pushing doc btw!!!



    D_

    The college binge drinker analogy was just to show people how resilient the liver is and that a 4 week oral cycle, which causes some values to go out of whack, in some cases very significantly, can be improved by using Cycle Support. Is there a double blind placebo controlled study? Nope. Have we gotten multiple subjects to get blood work done pre and post cycle as well as post CS? Yep. Again I only state these things because I am a big advocate of safety. I rather people use LS or CS and stay healthier than not use anything at all. I don't make any commission off of sales and haven't been affiliated with AI in a very long time, so this by no means is a response that is trying to get people to spend massive amounts of money on buying CS.[/QUOTE]
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    Quote Originally Posted by phrost View Post
    Hmm, after reading some more it looks like time-released is not the way to go because of potential toxicity issues like you mentioned. It also looks like high doses increase insulin sensitivity and cause a reduction in fat metabolism resulting in lower exercise endurance. I also read it elevates homocysteine levels, but that is something tmg should help lower.

    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Sep;91(9):3303-9.
    Impaired beta-cell function in human aging: response to nicotinic acid-induced insulin resistance.

    Chang AM, Smith MJ, Galecki AT, Bloem CJ, Halter JB.
    5570 MSRB II, 1150 West Medical Center Drive, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-0678, USA. annchang@umich.edu

    CONTEXT: Glucose tolerance declines with age and may involve impaired beta-cell sensitivity to glucose and beta-cell compensation for insulin resistance. OBJECTIVE: We investigated beta-cell sensitivity to glucose and beta-cell compensation for nicotinic acid-induced insulin resistance in young (age <35 yr) people with normal glucose tolerance (NGT) and old (age >60 yr) people with NGT and impaired glucose tolerance (IGT). DESIGN/PATIENTS/SETTING/INTERVENTION: Fifteen young NGT, 16 old NGT, and 14 old IGT were randomized to 2-wk treatment with nicotinic acid or placebo in a double-blind, crossover study in a university medical setting. At the end of each treatment period, participants had a frequently sampled iv glucose tolerance test and ramp clamp, in which insulin secretion rates (ISR) were determined in response to a matched 5-10 mm glucose stimulus. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Insulin sensitivity (S(I)), acute insulin response to iv glucose (AIRg), and disposition index (AIRg x S(I), or beta-cell compensation for insulin resistance) from frequently sampled iv glucose tolerance testing, and ISR area under the curve (or beta-cell sensitivity to glucose) from ramp clamp were determined. RESULTS: Progressive impairments in insulin secretion as assessed by AIRg, disposition index, and ISR area under the curve were identified in older people with NGT, with more marked defects in older people with IGT. Nicotinic acid treatment significantly reduced S(I) in all groups. beta-Cell compensation for nicotinic acid-induced insulin resistance was incomplete in all three groups, with greater defects in the two older groups. CONCLUSIONS: Human aging is associated with impaired beta-cell sensitivity to glucose and impaired beta-cell compensation to insulin resistance.

    ERGOGENIC EFFECT OF GLYCINE AND NIACIN SEPARATELY AND IN COMBINATION.
    Res Q. 1964 Oct;35:SUPPL:389-92.
    HILSENDAGER D, KARPOVICH PV.

    EFFECT OF NICOTINIC ACID ON THE TURNOVER RATE AND OXIDATION OF THE FREE FATTY ACIDS OF PLASMA IN MAN DURING EXERCISE.
    Metabolism. 1963 Sep;12:837-45.
    CARLSON LA, HAVEL RJ, EKELUND LG, HOLMGREN A.

    Effect of nicotinic acid on physical working capacity and on metabolism of muscle glycogen in man.
    J Appl Physiol. 1969 Feb;26(2):170-6.
    Bergstrom J, Hultman E, Jorfeldt L, Pernow B, Wahren J.
    Homocysteine is well beyond the scope of this thread (and a very complex topic far too often OVERsimplified)...

    But - one of the confounding issues not being discussed is that hypertriglyceridemia actually compounds insulin resistance...many of the cases looked at in niacin studies had elevated triglycerides and the fault couldn't be directly attributed to the niacin alone, but more an inherent defect.

    If you were diabetic (which most tend to be in these studies), this may be a suggestive issue for sure. I wouldn't recommend this type of therapy (i.e. - chronic mass dosing) per se without consistent monitoring in my diabetic patients, however...in the acute suggestion of a properly-run and prudent PCT for a defined duration...the rules are a tad different.


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    Quote Originally Posted by phrost View Post
    Thanks for replying D. Two quick comments here, I know Dinoiii is a big advocate of SAMe, but I don't think that would be feasible cost wise or possible to use in a powder. Maybe TMG could be used?
    Use of SAMe may not be cost efficient per se, but let's suggest for complete ****s and giggles that the Milk Thistle you are using is not exactly standardized to the Silymarin concentration (etc...) listed, you may be paying less, but is it truly cost-efficient if you are getting less active? (again, merely suggestive and no digs taken at Crowler and/or AI).

    TMG could very well be used but the comparable uses of it would be a bit different and you would have to concurrently supplement with B12, B6, and folate to make the reactions go forward to any precipitous degree (and then we will address the issues with b-vitamin bioavailability which would open an entirely different can of worms).



    In regards to the niacin I actually enjoy the flush. You said the flush free provides no benefits. Would using a time released formula like the following work?
    The hydrolysis reactions DO take place in those studied ... it has a suggested duration, however, of 10-12 hours - which may be unrealistic in this scenario (as suggested above).


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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    The studies do suggest that hepatoxicity from niacin is greater with the slow released formulas though.
    People must differentiate between the different existing forms of "slow-release" and not lump them together.



    The problem with flush free niacin is it does not contain any nicotinic acid, which is the main reason lipids are lowered with regular niacin.
    This statement is untrue. Flush-free formulas that contain the aforementioned component do very well contain 6 nicotinic acid molecules. If you are arguing for an issue with the hydrolysis reaction in and of itself - then I would be intrigued to see your data.




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    You keep advoacting SAMe. No one here has said anything negative about SAMe. At the time I was not familiar enough with it to recommend it or include it. Could this be a future ingredient? Yes, perhaps it could. The fact that you keep pushing it so hard really makes me wonder about your intentions . I feel if you were just informing people you would do so on the general portion of the board, not attacking a great product with your SAMe propaganda. I agree that it works great but are you sure you aren't affiliated with anyone?

    Your argument about cholesterol levels plummeting just after cessation of cycle is nowhere near correct. I am not referring to a basic, low dose, testosterone cycle either. Use some of these harsher drugs like SD and you will see that cholesterol levels stay elevated long after the cycle is over. Beelzebub (I use him because he had multiple blood work done) had horrible cholesterol levels that plagued him for quite a while. Diet alone wasn't bringing them down. CS did. Am I saying other products don't work? NO! Am I saying CS is the ONLY thing that you should use? Obviously not! All I am arguing here is that CS DOES work and that people should be health conscious. You also mention the fact that testosterone levels dropping could also cause the cholesterol levels to plummet. You are aware, however, that most of these orals cause testosterone to plummet while on? Again we are not referring to non methylated testosterone cycles here, that is a whole different story.

    FF Niacin will never get my support until they prove the research I have read otherwise. You can argue it all day but the fact is, there isn't any evidence that it does work. The price is also something to laugh at, they are charging a lot of money for the FF versions and it just isn't worth it. Bulk ingredients like NAC, Milk Thistle, and SAMe are just better choices. Could someone easily go to BN and get bulk powders cheaper than Crowler is selling them in one powder? Yup. The reason people like LS and CS, however, is that it is easier. CS is flavored, and LS is capsuled as an all-in-one. I HATED taking 25 pills/day when I wanted to improve my endocrine values, this just made it easier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    People must differentiate between the different existing forms of "slow-release" and not lump them together.





    This statement is untrue. Flush-free formulas that contain the aforementioned component do very well contain 6 nicotinic acid molecules. If you are arguing for an issue with the hydrolysis reaction in and of itself - then I would be intrigued to see your data.




    D_
    Annals of Internal Medicine
    16 December 2003
    Volume 139
    Issue 12
    Pages 996-1002

    I found it at the university library and was reading it. That was the first one I had found that made me interested in the subject a while ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    You keep advoacting SAMe. No one here has said anything negative about SAMe. At the time I was not familiar enough with it to recommend it or include it. Could this be a future ingredient? Yes, perhaps it could. The fact that you keep pushing it so hard really makes me wonder about your intentions . I feel if you were just informing people you would do so on the general portion of the board, not attacking a great product with your SAMe propaganda. I agree that it works great but are you sure you aren't affiliated with anyone?
    Suddenly, I feel as though I have stepped into a bb.com portal of paranoia. I would encourage you not to question my intentions...they are as altruistic as it gets in this shady industry - I ASSURE YOU! You may not be familiar with me and that's fine.

    Am I affiliated with anyone? My signature says MAN does it not? Outside of that, I own a consulting business for diets/supplements/workout programs where I would recommend SAMe as well (though it would NOT be encouraged in a powdered product by me as you could not enteric coat it).

    My brining up SAMe was based on first someone elses post of my recommendations as well as the fact that you said, it is better to be "covered" than not - of which I wholeheartedly agree. Bottom Line: NO, I do NOT sell SAMe nor am I affiliated with a company that makes this product...and yet have been writing about it on these boards for about 5 years - WHY? Because it tests out with clients and clinical values I am aware of.


    Your argument about cholesterol levels plummeting just after cessation of cycle is nowhere near correct.
    Who the hell said "plummet?" One thing I hate most of all is being quoted incorrectly and this is number 2.



    I am not referring to a basic, low dose, testosterone cycle either. Use some of these harsher drugs like superdrol and you will see that cholesterol levels stay elevated long after the cycle is over.
    Wait...are we saying SD > T (ummmm, well...what ester are we considering here?).



    Beelzebub (I use him because he had multiple blood work done) had horrible cholesterol levels that plagued him for quite a while. Diet alone wasn't bringing them down. CS did.
    And I said show me a link for Christ's sake - can I reiterate any further points?



    Am I saying other products don't work? NO! Am I saying CS is the ONLY thing that you should use? Obviously not! All I am arguing here is that CS DOES work and that people should be health conscious.
    Fair enough, but the OP quoted me and this is THE ONLY REASON I AM IN HERE (look at my post count).



    You also mention the fact that testosterone levels dropping could also cause the cholesterol levels to plummet.
    NO - this is #3!

    What I said was the LOW test is what drives endogenous liver production of cholesterol in attempt to keep balance. Again, I reiterate a quote. Stop being so damn defensive already!



    You are aware, however, that most of these orals cause testosterone to plummet while on? Again we are not referring to non methylated testosterone cycles here, that is a whole different story.
    I hope I made my point clear by the above comment in regards to this.



    FF Niacin will never get my support until they prove the research I have read otherwise. You can argue it all day but the fact is, there isn't any evidence that it does work.
    Are you kidding? Obviously your research is in its infancy and you aren't reading my posts again...what I said was the separation was difficult because most have been done with fibrates in combo. Good God - are you just seeing what you want? I further went on to say, I would love to see this data you boast about.



    The price is also something to laugh at, they are charging a lot of money for the FF versions and it just isn't worth it. Bulk ingredients like NAC, Milk Thistle, and SAMe are just better choices. Could someone easily go to BN and get bulk powders cheaper than Crowler is selling them in one powder? Yup. The reason people like LS and CS, however, is that it is easier. CS is flavored, and LS is capsuled as an all-in-one. I HATED taking 25 pills/day when I wanted to improve my endocrine values, this just made it easier.
    Fine...but ALL-IN-ONEs are NOT always the best idea! let's take some of these things that should be dosed multiple times a day while other not...there is a fundamental issue with what is being professed about the hormonal disarray in the post-cycle era abound... I am not here to contest the product...but moreso reply to a quote about ONE PARTICULAR ingredient. If you want drama - go seek it out from someone else.



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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    Annals of Internal Medicine
    16 December 2003
    Volume 139
    Issue 12
    Pages 996-1002

    I found it at the university library and was reading it. That was the first one I had found that made me interested in the subject a while ago.
    Ok, hang on a minute...



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    Ok

    The study (which this is one and looks like the bulk of your research based on posts in this thread) offers free niacin concentration of which inositol hexaniacinate has none, which is obvious if bound and dependent upon hydrolysis reactions as I have suggested...I was hoping you'd have research backing the inefficiency of those said hydrolysis reactions which in and of itself would then make sense.

    Unfortunate mistranslation of dosing parameters lead to injustices between rabbit studies and human studies that the authors did NOT take into consideration in this quasi-meta-analysis presentation.


    And the biggest reason this study drew those conclusions which is important to understand while reviewing literature...

    Potential Financial Conflicts of Interest: Dr. Meyers currently works at the Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Long Beach, California. The head of the laboratory at which he works has received grants from Kos Pharmaceuticals (makers of Niaspan), and the basic science work Dr. Meyers conducts is funded in part by these grants.




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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Ok

    The study (which this is one and looks like the bulk of your research based on posts in this thread) offers free niacin concentration of which inositol hexaniacinate has none, which is obvious if bound and dependent upon hydrolysis reactions as I have suggested...I was hoping you'd have research backing the inefficiency of those said hydrolysis reactions which in and of itself would then make sense.

    Unfortunate mistranslation of dosing parameters lead to injustices between rabbit studies and human studies that the authors did NOT take into consideration in this quasi-meta-analysis presentation.


    And the biggest reason this study drew those conclusions which is important to understand while reviewing literature...

    Potential Financial Conflicts of Interest: Dr. Meyers currently works at the Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Long Beach, California. The head of the laboratory at which he works has received grants from Kos Pharmaceuticals (makers of Niaspan), and the basic science work Dr. Meyers conducts is funded in part by these grants.




    D_

    I'll admit after re-reading my post I did mean to put "free" in there. I didn't want to make it look like I was reediting everything though.

    I never misquoted you. I didn't mean to put the word "plummet" but I still disagree with cholesterol levels falling a great deal after cessation of cycle, it just isn't like that in all cases.

    SD > Test? Definitely. Have you taken both? Heck look at the numbers straight out of Vida. Do I agree that Vida's numbers are spot on? Of course not, they didn't have the advanced technology that we have today, but they are still good approximations.

    The only reason I got defensive is because you came in and your first argument was that milk thistle "might" be under dosed. Ag

    And to reiterate myself, I agree with SAMe being great. I think CROWLER should use it and I have suggested it to him. It just wasn't as well known when we made this stuff. (well to me anyways, I don't claim to know everything!)
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    dinoiii and LMD,

    Just want to say thanks for a great debate here. A debate of this nature would not/could not exist on other boards, so thank you for sharing your experiences, thoughts, opinions, and research on this matter.

    -Z
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    Quote Originally Posted by zbtboy View Post
    dinoiii and LMD,

    Just want to say thanks for a great debate here. A debate of this nature would not/could not exist on other boards, so thank you for sharing your experiences, thoughts, opinions, and research on this matter.

    -Z
    SHUTUP WE ARE STILL FIGHTING! haha j/k, thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Potential Financial Conflicts of Interest: Dr. Meyers currently works at the Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Long Beach, California. The head of the laboratory at which he works has received grants from Kos Pharmaceuticals (makers of Niaspan), and the basic science work Dr. Meyers conducts is funded in part by these grants.




    D_
    This is a big problem. Is there ever any impartiallity in these studies? Aren't they all tainted from the respect that the researchers are looking for a particular outcome and from the fact that if researchers don't provide some of what the sponsor is looking for, then their funding is cut?
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdbear65 View Post
    This is a big problem. Is there ever any impartiallity in these studies? Aren't they all tainted from the respect that the researchers are looking for a particular outcome and from the fact that if researchers don't provide some of what the sponsor is looking for, then their funding is cut?
    Oh my goodness yes. Read Overdosed America, it is a great book!

    Also do a search and search for a post by myself in the general chat area and type in overdosed america and it will bring up an excerpt that I typed from the book. Will stun you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    I'll admit after re-reading my post I did mean to put "free" in there. I didn't want to make it look like I was reediting everything though.
    Ok, fair enough but this as we both can see obviously changes the points a tad.


    I never misquoted you. I didn't mean to put the word "plummet" but I still disagree with cholesterol levels falling a great deal after cessation of cycle, it just isn't like that in all cases.
    I never said anything about a "great deal" so we are not necessarily arguing a different point. What I did say is that continued elevations in serum cholesterol as androgenic precursor may IN FACT be a GOOD thing during the post-cycle realm as far as endocrinologic disarray seen in HPTA dysfunction.


    superdrol > Test? Definitely. Have you taken both? Heck look at the numbers straight out of Vida. Do I agree that Vida's numbers are spot on? Of course not, they didn't have the advanced technology that we have today, but they are still good approximations.
    I will NOT use SD (based on it yielding the coveted poison in a bottle tag by me), however, have bore witness to many clients that in fact have used it. VIDA is essentially worthless the way companies exploit it, but that is neither here nor there and an entirely different discussion.


    The only reason I got defensive is because you came in and your first argument was that milk thistle "might" be under dosed.
    Actually, so we continue to keep this honest...my opening point referenced as the "sciency" part yielded 6 paragraphs, 5 of which were on RYR, niacin, and/or cholesterol. You merely fixated on the one with the MT comment. Alas I digress...


    And to reiterate myself, I agree with SAMe being great. I think CROWLER should use it and I have suggested it to him. It just wasn't as well known when we made this stuff. (well to me anyways, I don't claim to know everything!)
    And I too will reiterate that I think SAMe would be a TERRIBLE inclusion in Cycle Support (but if I recall correctly, I do think there is an encapsulated version that could likely be made into a table that would warrant an enteric-coat...the only suitable way to ingest a quality SAMe product).




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    Quote Originally Posted by zbtboy View Post
    dinoiii and LMD,

    Just want to say thanks for a great debate here. A debate of this nature would not/could not exist on other boards, so thank you for sharing your experiences, thoughts, opinions, and research on this matter.

    -Z

    Well...there is one other board I have in mind that would allow for it, but I am simply game for quality debate of any nature. I am not doubting LMD to know his stuff and I think because this is his baby...I certainly understand him getting a little on edge with critique, but believe me...I have absolutely ZERO malicious intentions for him and/or the product. I would hope Crowler, or whomever would take the information and here it as he says he does about consumers issues is all. He has a RYR-free version - of which I was completely unaware of until seeing this thread, which is a step in the right direction IMO for sure.


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    Quote Originally Posted by gdbear65 View Post
    This is a big problem. Is there ever any impartiallity in these studies? Aren't they all tainted from the respect that the researchers are looking for a particular outcome and from the fact that if researchers don't provide some of what the sponsor is looking for, then their funding is cut?
    I too agree with this sentiment, though there are actually a few studies that are truly independent (a recent review of antipsychotic meds for instance was TRULY independent and first of its kind in this medication class, though still a rarity - they exist).

    However, if it is the only offering to contest the points I have made...he certainly did not sell me on his argument is all.

    As an aside: I am putting out a study (completely 100% funded by my own company later this year) on arginine-based products looking at MANY parameters...seeing though I am NOT seeking a research grant as I have in the past...this is truly a unique effort (even for me) and one to watch for.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    Oh my goodness yes. Read Overdosed America, it is a great book!

    Also do a search and search for a post by myself in the general chat area and type in overdosed america and it will bring up an excerpt that I typed from the book. Will stun you.
    That book, unfortunately, is also one-sided...but you are right...it does offer a unique look at the "other" side. There are always multiple views.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Well...there is one other board I have in mind that would allow for it, but I am simply game for quality debate of any nature. I am not doubting LMD to know his stuff and I think because this is his baby...I certainly understand him getting a little on edge with critique, but believe me...I have absolutely ZERO malicious intentions for him and/or the product. I would hope Crowler, or whomever would take the information and here it as he says he does about consumers issues is all. He has a RYR-free version - of which I was completely unaware of until seeing this thread, which is a step in the right direction IMO for sure.


    D_

    Thanks for all the info. Great to see that you like us offering a non Red Yeast Rice version!

    Take care.


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    Wow good thread. Had to bump it. Has me thinking (and thats rare).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis View Post
    Wow good thread. Had to bump it. Has me thinking (and thats rare).
    I'll bump to that!... Great info
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    CROWLER's Avatar
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    Well I gotta bump it to.

    We listen to our customers so we offer a regular Cycle Support and a Red Yeast Rice FREE one also.

    Have to say the regular out sells the other by about 1000:1


    CROWLER
    Sleep Supplement 3Z BCAA: Red Raspberry and Lemon flavors
    HGH/sleep enhancer: HGHpro
    Test Booster: TestoPRO and STOKED!
    Preworkout: MANIAC Fruit Punch and Pink Lemonade
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    Travis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CROWLER View Post
    Well I gotta bump it to.

    We listen to our customers so we offer a regular Cycle Support and a Red Yeast Rice FREE one also.

    Have to say the regular out sells the other by about 1000:1


    CROWLER
    Why doesnt NP carry this yet? To be honest I didnt even know it existed until now!
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