Question for P.A. about Nootropics

[Ceredumbellum]

Hey P.A.,

I tried your product Psychotropin a long time ago and thought it was one of the two best nootropic blends on the market at the time. Over the past 3-4 years I have experimented with every legal nootropic imagineable with a wide array of results.

It appears to me, at least from anecdotal evidence, that the Nootropic market is starting to make a bit of a comeback (from a consumer demand standpoint anyway). Maybe it's because of all the politicians and alphabet agencies wanting to take the stuff that works away from us and maybe it's just that public conciousness regarding nootropics has exponentially grown in today's age of ever expanding digital media. I think it's a heavy combination of both.

I know nootropics aren't necessarily your specialty, but I respect your expertise and knowledge nonetheless. I was hoping you could answer a few of these questions for me:

** Do you agree or disagree that the nootropic market is making a comeback and would you have any future interest in developing a novel nootropic compound and/ or nootropic blend?

** (This one is a bit off the wall) Is Phenibut DSHEA compliant since it is a synthetic compound and not found in nature? If it is not, why is it allowed to be sold as a dietary supplement (I believe it's classified as a prescription medication in some other countries)? Don't get me wrong, I love the stuff in moderation and think it is almost as good for anxiety as Xanax, just with FAR fewer side-effects. Just curious on that one. Google wasn't much help to me there.

** Why do certain GABA receptor agonists and some compounds that exogenously produce GABA cause hyper-focus? I've always understood GABA to be the brains' main inhibitory neurotransmitter. But certain compounds seem to cause hyper-focus for a small-to-moderate window of time after their initial onset. I have a relaxation supplement that contains Phenibut and it puts me in "the zone" so to speak as far as focus goes. If I take it early in the afternoon after my second dose of Adderall it makes me rediculously focused and productive.

**I loved this prodcut:

PSYCHOTROPIN

Supplement Facts

Serving Size: 4 Capsules
Servings per Container: 30

Amount per Serving:

Phenibut - 500mg
Acetyl L-Carnitine - 1000mg
Bacopa Monnieri - 250mg
L-Theanine - 200mg
DMAE - 200mg
Betaine - 200mg
Rhodiola Rosea - 150mg
Vinpocetine - 7.5mg
Huperzine - .05mg

Knowing what you know today and with all the new compounds that have come on to the nootropic market over the years, would you alter this formula at all (add/ subtract substances from this blend?). Or would you just scrap the whole thing and come out with something completely different?

I know that's a lot of questions. If you could answer any of them though that would be great and I'm sure it would make for a good, informative read for anyone else that has an interest in nootropics. Thanks P.A.!

 

[Patrick Arnold]

too many questions. you are overwhelming me

I dunno if the nootropic market is making a comeback. My brother though made some good money selling a nootropic product called procera on infomercials

Its not my interest but if i were to stumble across something novel and promising it might be

DSHEA exempts amino acids. phenibut is an amino acid (albeit not an alpha amino acid)\

I am not sure i would recommend phenibut to people anymore. Some people can develop dependency

I think GABA potentiators make people more sharp by suppressing the "noise" in your brain. Sort of like a squelch. When your brain is throwing out all kinds of distractive thoughts and stuff you cant think straight. Of course, too much GABA potentiation (alcohol works on GABA(A)) and you start suppressing more vital mental processes

 

[Patrick Arnold]

too many questions. you are overwhelming me

I dunno if the nootropic market is making a comeback. My brother though made some good money selling a nootropic product called procera on infomercials

Its not my interest but if i were to stumble across something novel and promising it might be

DSHEA exempts amino acids. phenibut is an amino acid (albeit not an alpha amino acid)\

I am not sure i would recommend phenibut to people anymore. Some people can develop dependency

I think GABA potentiators make people more sharp by suppressing the "noise" in your brain. Sort of like a squelch. When your brain is throwing out all kinds of distractive thoughts and stuff you cant think straight. Of course, too much GABA potentiation (alcohol works on GABA(A)) and you start suppressing more vital mental processes

 

[Ceredumbellum]

too many questions. you are overwhelming me

Sorry, I kinda figured I might be getting a let long-winded there. I get to rambling on sometimes. Thanks for the answers though.

 

[Ceredumbellum]

DSHEA exempts amino acids. phenibut is an amino acid (albeit not an alpha amino acid)\

I am not sure i would recommend phenibut to people anymore. Some people can develop dependency

I think GABA potentiators make people more sharp by suppressing the "noise" in your brain. Sort of like a squelch. When your brain is throwing out all kinds of distractive thoughts and stuff you cant think straight. Of course, too much GABA potentiation (alcohol works on GABA(A)) and you start suppressing more vital mental processes

Suppressing the "noise" in your brain... I never thought about it like that but it makes perfect sense. And, yes, there is definately a fine line between taking just enough to focus and too much that ends up sedating you and screwing with your memory.

I agree with you on Phenibut having addiction potential and personally I'd never take it as a stand-alone again (I took too much one time and was sick as f$@k for a day and a half). I only take it in a proprietary blend now and that makes it pretty hard to abuse because of all the other stuff in it (though I never developed any dependence issues with Phenibut in the first place). It takes so long for you to "feel" Phenibut kicking in that I would think it'd be much less abuseable than benzo's and hypnotics.
The flip side of that is if the individual consuming Phenibut doesn't understand that it takes a significant amount of time to "feel" it, then they may well be tempted to redose. And good grief... Phenibut will make you sick as a dog if you take too much... Not a pleasant experience at all!

 

[KimChee]

Supressing the noise in the brain sounds better than quieting the inner doubt voices..There is a really good read on a guy's struggle with phenibut on mind and muscle. I have a very addictive personality so I've kind of steered away from it, though I am still curious about it.

 

[Ceredumbellum]

Supressing the noise in the brain sounds better than quieting the inner doubt voices..There is a really good read on a guy's struggle with phenibut on mind and muscle. I have a very addictive personality so I've kind of steered away from it, though I am still curious about it.

Haha, I don't know what to make of the first sentance there...
I'm with P.A. on this one. If you struggle or have struggled with addiction I wouldn't try it. I am of the opinion it takes a lot longer to become dependant on Phenibut that other similar pharmacuetical substances, but once you're addicted you're addicted. I'd compare it to benzos. Though their mechanisms of action vary a bit the withdrawl is nearly as bad, if not as bad, as benzodiazepines.
I'll have to check that post out.
I would steer clear of Phenibut if I were you.

 

[lronFist]

Its not my interest but if i were to stumble across something novel and promising it might be

i know of a cool DSHEA compliant nootropic thats not been released yet that you could probably produce

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Suppressing the "noise" in your brain... I never thought about it like that but it makes perfect sense. And, yes, there is definately a fine line between taking just enough to focus and too much that ends up sedating you and screwing with your memory.

I agree with you on Phenibut having addiction potential and personally I'd never take it as a stand-alone again (I took too much one time and was sick as f$@k for a day and a half). I only take it in a proprietary blend now and that makes it pretty hard to abuse because of all the other stuff in it (though I never developed any dependence issues with Phenibut in the first place). It takes so long for you to "feel" Phenibut kicking in that I would think it'd be much less abuseable than benzo's and hypnotics.
The flip side of that is if the individual consuming Phenibut doesn't understand that it takes a significant amount of time to "feel" it, then they may well be tempted to redose. And good grief... Phenibut will make you sick as a dog if you take too much... Not a pleasant experience at all!

some people seem to be extra susceptible to the euphoric effects of phenibut

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Haha, I don't know what to make of the first sentance there... .

voices in the head arent that troubling. its when the imaginary voices are outside your head that its bad. thats schizophrenia

 

[KimChee]

Haha, I just meant your inner critic: the one that sabotages your thoughts or actions with negative reinforcement or self doubt. The one that undermines self-confidence..I have horrible self-confidence in the first place, people with great self-confidence probably have no idea what I'm talking about..lol..

voices in the head arent that troubling. its when the imaginary voices are outside your head that its bad. thats schizophrenia

 

[Ceredumbellum]

i know of a cool DSHEA compliant nootropic thats not been released yet that you could probably produce

I think the DEA is cracking down on "bath salts" pretty hard these days.:loser:

 

[lronFist]

I think the DEA is cracking down on "bath salts" pretty hard these days.:loser:

I can't think any of bath salts that are legal under the federal analogue act, much less DSHEA compliant.

 

[Ceredumbellum]

I can't think any of bath salts that are legal under the federal analogue act, much less DSHEA compliant.

Just having a bit of fun that's all. Yeah, I think they've run out of all the little alterations to the molecules that would technically take the different chemicals out of the catergory of "controlled substance". Of course I guess once it's classified as a controlled substance the tweaking (no pun intended) is over since you get into the Federal Analogue Act. But who's to say what's still out there in nature, waiting to be found that has stimulant properties and causes euphoria like many stimulant-type prescription drugs? Probably nothing since practically every plant, tree, fungus, etc.... has been turned upside-down and inside-out to see if the next big DSHEA compliant substance is there.
Not to get too far off topic but didn't a company put some crazy-ass designer stim in their fat burner a few years back that would keep you up for 24+ hours with a lot of folks? I seem to remember P.A. saying he tried the stim stand-alone and it was insane.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I think the DEA is cracking down on "bath salts" pretty hard these days.:loser:

Is it DEA or some other agency? I asking cuz i dunno


if its the DEA then what is stopping the DEA from arbitrarily going after DMAA?

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Just having a bit of fun that's all. Yeah, I think they've run out of all the little alterations to the molecules that would technically take the different chemicals out of the catergory of "controlled substance". Of course I guess once it's classified as a controlled substance the tweaking (no pun intended) is over since you get into the Federal Analogue Act. But who's to say what's still out there in nature, waiting to be found that has stimulant properties and causes euphoria like many stimulant-type prescription drugs? Probably nothing since practically every plant, tree, fungus, etc.... has been turned upside-down and inside-out to see if the next big DSHEA compliant substance is there.
Not to get too far off topic but didn't a company put some crazy-ass designer stim in their fat burner a few years back that would keep you up for 24+ hours with a lot of folks? I seem to remember P.A. saying he tried the stim stand-alone and it was insane.

Anabolic Xtreme had a pyrrolidine type analog in there if i recall. And I doubt that the DEA can just claim something as an analog without a formal administrative action that involves scientific analysis and comments from experts in the field

 

[Ceredumbellum]

Is it DEA or some other agency? I asking cuz i dunno


if its the DEA then what is stopping the DEA from arbitrarily going after DMAA?

Yes, it was definately the DEA. As far as DMAA is concerned I don't know. Anything I'd say is a guess, but.... I'd guess since it's found in nature, its' chemical structure isn't one that would garner too much DEA attention and there haven't been reports of hallucinations, addiction, violence, criminal behavior, etc... There were so many different "bath salts" that I wouldn't know where to start and as far as deciphering their chemical structures to see if they were ok, well, that's not my area. Still self-educating. :thumbsup: