Antaeus Labs - Achilles + Joints Force for Joint Support

[BigBlackGuy]

PA, do you believe these two would stack well together, or would you recommend just using either Joint Force -OR- Achilles?

Achilles Ingredients:

Palmitoylethanolamide
Heteropterys Aphrodisiaca
Kirenol
Cissus Quadrangularis
Zingiber Zerumbet

You can also view write-up here: Antaeus Labs | Achilles

Thanks PA!

Edit: I know Nutra sells a Joint Force stack (here with Osteo Sport), so I thought they might end up selling a stack at some point like what I posed above.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

i have no idea

 

[nimbustim]

I'm sure they would work good together, but I'm not sure if it would be cost beneficial, especially when Joint Force works so good on it's own.

 

[domore]

I'm sure they would work good together, but I'm not sure if it would be cost beneficial, especially when Joint Force works so good on it's own.

A wild nimbustim appears.

I agree I've used Joint Force with great success. I'm not sure how much more successful it can get.

How is reformulation going over at Nimbus, Tim?

 

[steppinRazor]

is this a serious question BBG? are you saying achilles isnt sufficient on it's own?
joint supps dont come cheap - the thought of stacking two joint products hurts me right in the bank account.

 

[CATdiesel76]

That is the exact combination I am using now. The combination has worked great for me. Joint force is excellent for site specific problems and so far, Achilles has been great as well. Just ordered another bottle of each actually. This is about my 12th bottle of joint force and it will be my second of Achilles if that tells you anything. Check out my log for my impressions.

 

[BigBlackGuy]

is this a serious question BBG? are you saying achilles isnt sufficient on it's own?
joint supps dont come cheap - the thought of stacking two joint products hurts me right in the bank account.

CATdiesel hits on my point. Achilles logs show it works - very well. Joint Force works very well too. But since 1 is site specific and the other is systemic, I was wondering how they stack.

Apparently well! Good to know.

 

[steppinRazor]

CATdiesel hits on my point. Achilles logs show it works - very well. Joint Force works very well too. But since 1 is site specific and the other is systemic, I was wondering how they stack.

Apparently well! Good to know.

If he's running both how is the log valid?
One of them is site specific? How is that?

 

[truthornothin]

If he's running both how is the log valid?
One of them is site specific? How is that?

Joint Force is site specific, it is a site specific anti inflammatory

 

[steppinRazor]

hahaha wow im an idiot. i was mistaking joint force for another oral supplement. and im even in PA's sub forum.. haha my bad.
i was seriously soo perplexed by this whole thread.. this makes much more sense now.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

If he's running both how is the log valid?
One of them is site specific? How is that?

joint force is topical and it works on the site where you spray it

 

[steppinRazor]

joint force is topical and it works on the site where you spray it

Yeah thanks for clearing that up..at the time i posted that i didn't realize it was topical. I maybe picking some up now in the near future.

 

[CATdiesel76]

Exactly. After my workout ice my shoulders, shower, then apply joint force to take care of local inflammation so that my shoulders can heal. Also, I have used joint force for over a year so I would be able to distinguish the effects of an additional product

 

[nimbustim]

joint force is topical and it works on the site where you spray it

A very good one at that. It really helped with my knee injury I got while playing football last year.

 

[DaveGabe24]

Exactly. After my workout ice my shoulders, shower, then apply joint force to take care of local inflammation so that my shoulders can heal. Also, I have used joint force for over a year so I would be able to distinguish the effects of an additional product

Just a heads up but you may want to avoid icing in the future...not sure where athletes/trainers every got the idea that ice was a good thing for recovery. Inflammation is a very necessary healing process, so unless your icing for the sole purpose of achieving numbness/pain relief, then it really serves no purpose and only delays the cascade. Not saying NSAID's dont have their fair share good uses, but post-workout for example may not be one of them (same goes for antioxidants).

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Just a heads up but you may want to avoid icing in the future...not sure where athletes/trainers every got the idea that ice was a good thing for recovery. Inflammation is a very necessary healing process, so unless your icing for the sole purpose of achieving numbness/pain relief, then it really serves no purpose and only delays the cascade. Not saying NSAID's dont have their fair share good uses, but post-workout for example may not be one of them (same goes for antioxidants).

early on in an injury it is imperative you ice. blood vessels are broken and fluid can build up and cause more damage than u need. early inflammation can also be damaging. once the acute swelling starts to subside you can stop the ice

 

[DaveGabe24]

early on in an injury it is imperative you ice. blood vessels are broken and fluid can build up and cause more damage than u need. early inflammation can also be damaging. once the acute swelling starts to subside you can stop the ice

You are still slowing bloodflow to the area which inevitably delays the onset of chemotaxis. Kinins, prostaglandin, histamine etc. need to reach the site to increase vasodilation and capillary permeability, which is followed up with the leukocytes (macrophages/neutrophils), so on and so forth down the line (collagenation, angiogenesis, blah blah). I know you obviously dont know a lesson in physiology, so this is not my intention, but with the necessary process of chemotaxis in place why do we feel the need to delay this? This is a genuine question, not some passive aggressive, sarcastic slight

Edit: Food for thought:
“When ice is applied to a body part for a prolonged period, nearby lymphatic vessels begin to dramatically increase their permeability (lymphatic vessels are ‘dead-end’ tubes which ordinarily help carry excess tissue fluids back into the cardiovascular system). As lymphatic permeability is enhanced, large amounts of fluid begin to pour from the lymphatics ‘in the wrong direction’ (into the injured area), increasing the amount of local swelling and pressure and potentially contributing to greater pain.” The use of Cryotherapy in Sports Injuries,’ Sports Medicine, Vol. 3. pp. 398-414, 1986

I guess prolonger period needs to be more explicitly defined for this be relevant, but it is interesting nonetheless. I'm more of a molecular bio guy myself, so I'm open for people to correct me.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

You are still slowing bloodflow to the area which inevitably delays the onset of chemotaxis. Kinins, prostaglandin, histamine etc. need to reach the site to increase vasodilation and capillary permeability, which is followed up with the leukocytes (macrophages/neutrophils), so on and so forth down the line (collagenation, angiogenesis, blah blah). I know you obviously dont know a lesson in physiology, so this is not my intention, but with the necessary process of chemotaxis in place why do we feel the need to delay this? This is a genuine question, not some passive aggressive, sarcastic slight

Edit: Food for thought:
“When ice is applied to a body part for a prolonged period, nearby lymphatic vessels begin to dramatically increase their permeability (lymphatic vessels are ‘dead-end’ tubes which ordinarily help carry excess tissue fluids back into the cardiovascular system). As lymphatic permeability is enhanced, large amounts of fluid begin to pour from the lymphatics ‘in the wrong direction’ (into the injured area), increasing the amount of local swelling and pressure and potentially contributing to greater pain.” The use of Cryotherapy in Sports Injuries,’ Sports Medicine, Vol. 3. pp. 398-414, 1986

I guess prolonger period needs to be more explicitly defined for this be relevant, but it is interesting nonetheless. I'm more of a molecular bio guy myself, so I'm open for people to correct me.

in the case where an injury has caused the rupture of blood vessels I think it is unquestionable that compression and ice is imperative to minimize damage. At least until the point where these ruptures have healed. Beyond that I can understand the debate as to whether controlling inflammation is helpful or harmful. No, this is not my field of expertise but I think what I just said here is common sense

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Edit: Food for thought:“When ice is applied to a body part for a prolonged period, nearby lymphatic vessels begin to dramatically increase their permeability (lymphatic vessels are ‘dead-end’ tubes which ordinarily help carry excess tissue fluids back into the cardiovascular system). As lymphatic permeability is enhanced, large amounts of fluid begin to pour from the lymphatics ‘in the wrong direction’ (into the injured area), increasing the amount of local swelling and pressure and potentially contributing to greater pain.” The use of Cryotherapy in Sports Injuries,’ Sports Medicine, Vol. 3. pp. 398-414, 1986I guess prolonger period needs to be more explicitly defined for this be relevant, but it is interesting nonetheless. I'm more of a molecular bio guy myself, so I'm open for people to correct me.

sports doctors always emphasize that one should apply ice to an injury only for short periods of time. whether or not its because they understand the science as you explained it here, or whether it is established practice simply based on years of observation and trial and error I dunno. But this does emphasize the importance that if you do ice an injury you should only keep that ice on for like ten minutes

 

[DaveGabe24]

in the case where an injury has caused the rupture of blood vessels I think it is unquestionable that compression and ice is imperative to minimize damage. At least until the point where these ruptures have healed. Beyond that I can understand the debate as to whether controlling inflammation is helpful or harmful. No, this is not my field of expertise but I think what I just said here is common sense

Compression seems to be just as effective. The icing part is what has been increasingly questioned as of late.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Compression seems to be just as effective. The icing part is what has been increasingly questioned as of late.

dont forget elevation

 

[DaveGabe24]

dont forget elevation

And movement lol People that lay in bed and baby it don't do themselves any favors either. Gotta get that excess fluid and waste out of the area.

Lets talk about something more interesting...how aboutttttt human induced pluriopotent stem cells? lol Thats more up my alley

 

[Patrick Arnold]

And movement lol People that lay in bed and baby it don't do themselves any favors either. Gotta get that excess fluid and waste out of the area. Lets talk about something more interesting...how aboutttttt human induced pluriopotent stem cells? lol Thats more up my alley

Is anyone using that for regenerative medicine for sports injuries yet? If anyone would it would be Dr. Galea in Toronto, but the canadian government came down on him recently so he probably doesnt do much experimental stuff anymore

 

[DaveGabe24]

Is anyone using that for regenerative medicine for sports injuries yet? If anyone would it would be Dr. Galea in Toronto, but the canadian government came down on him recently so he probably doesnt do much experimental stuff anymore

Not sure about sports injuries, but I know Yamanaka discussed the next steps he intends to take at a speech he gave at an NIH convention. He suggested that we create a "bank" of healthy cells and then differentiate them on a case by case basically. I know we've achieved cardiac tissue. I was reading about a lab that was able to create fertile offspring in rats using adult cells. They reduced the cells to their initial stem cell state, and then differentiated into sperm. It was a typical IVF cycle only incubation was inside a gestational rat carrier as opposed to the external incubators we use.

Definitely one of my favorite topics these days, along with epigenetics.

 

[CATdiesel76]

Compression seems to be just as effective. The icing part is what has been increasingly questioned as of late.

Interesting study. Im sure their is a limit as to what extent one should ice and when it becomes detrimental. From personal experience, I always felt that icing right after the injury as Pat mentioned and also icing very briefly after the target area has been worked seemed to aid in recovery more than not doing it at all. It could be placebo I suppose but that is what I noticed. For instance, When I first hurt my shoulder I would ice it frequently the first few days. From then on out I would ice it briefly (5-10min) after a workout that fired the area up a bit. I will have to read up more on this subject to get a better idea on it but you have me intrigued

 

[truthornothin]

Compression seems to be just as effective. The icing part is what has been increasingly questioned as of late.

I hate the way Ice feels but its undeniable it has helped my elbows which I severely injured a few months back Ice 10 minutes nothing for half and hour and heat for 10(after all swelling is gone) I prefer the heat 10 to 1 over the ice. I believe that the increased circulation can only be beneficial

 

[DaveGabe24]

I perhaps may have overstepped the boundaries of what the current anecdotal/literature suggests. I guess we can all agree that the immediate application of ice may have uses, however I can imagine its benefits would be a bell curve if considered quantitatively even dipping into the negatives (harmful effects).

Its definitely fun to look into because it is not something people often talk about.

 

[CATdiesel76]

I perhaps may have overstepped the boundaries of what the current anecdotal/literature suggests. I guess we can all agree that the immediate application of ice may have uses, however I can imagine its benefits would be a bell curve if considered quantitatively even dipping into the negatives (harmful effects).

Its definitely fun to look into because it is not something people often talk about.

I for one am glad you brought this question to the table. I think it is always good to question existing practices. If we didn't, we might still be draining people of all their "bad blood" like the medieval times haha. It is always important to know the reasoning behind why we do things and if conflicting evidence arises, question the status quo.

I too feel that this topic is something seriously overlooked. A lot of people haven't been in the game long enough to care about such problems. All they want is to get huge or ripped in 3 weeks. Most have not trained long and seriously enough to sustain the injuries and the set backs that make you aware and concerned about such issues such as the proper way to repair injuries, overcoming muscular imbalances, and general fine tuning of the body.