Lets Get To The Bottom Of This, Soy Protein and Estrogen

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    I'd be more interested in a comparison to casein or egg.
    Read that new hydrolysate study or the latest protein review out of Mcmasters university. Both reference MPS is best/maximized (wut lol) using protein from top to bottom :

    Whey isolate
    Egg
    Casein
    Soy

    Actually I'm not exactly sure on that order but I do know whey was always on top. Bovine milk was near the top too.
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  2. Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Read that new hydrolysate study or the latest protein review out of Mcmasters university. Both reference MPS is best/maximized (wut lol) using protein from top to bottom :

    Whey isolate
    Egg
    Casein
    Soy

    Actually I'm not exactly sure on that order but I do know whey was always on top. Bovine milk was near the top too.
    I feel I've seen a different study equating casein and soy, which could make sense also since casein's amino profile isn't as good as whey (among other factors). It was posted here on AM, I could look it up.
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  3. Based on most of the studies I've read, soy has no effect whatsoever on hormones.
    I think supplementing your diet with soy is fine, in addition soy has some very beneficial health benefits.
    Bill Pearl is a vegetarian, who used soy regularly, and it didn't seem to hinder him.

  4. Before someone chimes in, yes I know Bill was a lacto-ovo-vegetarian, but also supplemented with soy.

  5. lol so I'm sitting here reading the following new study...

    J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2012 Jun 19;9(1):28. [Epub ahead of print]Consumption and biochemical impact of commercially available plant-derived nutritional supplements. An observational pilot-study on recreational athletes.
    And they find the following:

    Interestingly, those with abnormal estrogen levels shared the consumption of high dosage ofsoy protein (2 gr/Kg/die).
    and

    In our study, hyperestrogenism was observed in athletes who consumed high dosage of soyprotein, the main food source of phytoestrogens. Actually, besides the known beneficialeffects, these herbal hormones may have possible unfavorable effects in humans byinterfering with the function of normal cellular activities, such as receptor-mediated signaltransduction and DNA replication, as well as genotoxic, mutagenic and proliferation of somecancer cells [22]. This observation must be carefully considered when reflecting upon theincreasing number of vegan and vegetarian athletes for whom soy represents the main sourceof protein, consumed in the form of protein powders and bars [23-25].
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    lol so I'm sitting here reading the following new study...



    And they find the following:



    and
    They seem to not be convinced that they found causation and unless those citations are great (didn't care to look) it seems they immediately jumped to conclusions based on preconceived notions of phytoestrogens.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    They seem to not be convinced that they found causation and unless those citations are great (didn't care to look) it seems they immediately jumped to conclusions based on preconceived notions of phytoestrogens.
    I think you may be correct. I skimmed it fairly quickly for juicy information. They tested animal stack for steroids, but found none.
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  8. Why even mess around. Water bottles have plastic that secrete estrogen, and if left out in the sun, the plastic leaks the estrogen into the water. I stay away from anything soy-based just to be safe. I mean, I'm sure it's ok to eat some edamame every once and a while, and it is actually delicious, but with plenty of whey (and even beef serum) protiens out there, why even discuss the need to worry about using soy-based protien. I don't know if you have ever tried Sun Warrior Protien, but I would rather drink sand! COSTCO has a 6-LB bag of CYTOSPORT that is about as much as a 3-LB tub of whey at ***/BB.com. Some of the estrogen spikes are also from messing around with "prohormones" that make the natural hormones react, raising levels. Like I said, i just stay away from soy.

  9. Where does beef serum sit?

  10. Hello guys, I am new here and just feel inclined to comment here. Let me first say i am not a nutritionist, just a 42 year old man that has enjoyed training most of my adult life along with learning about nutrition, supplements, etc as a way to be healthier and at earlier stages in my to increase my muscle size and strength. i also have 3 daughters and a wife. When my 7 year old started developing lumps under her nipples I started investigating female issues. Primarily Estrogen dominance. Let me also say that i am not vegetarian, i eat all kinds of food, etc and am not condoning any particular diet or way of life nutritionally.

    Estrogen dominance is a primary reason why most women develop earlier in life than they used to as well as why the have many female problems as they get older. it is also a big reason our current culture has s many feminized men (physically speaking). This dominance of estrogen comes from many things in our food, drink, and even air. As bodybuilders we eat a lot of chicken along with other meats. But this thread being concerned about soy phyto estrogens just seems to be somewhat misguided. If you examine the way our foods are grown/ raised with the man made chemicals and hormones/ antibiotics, etc we are getting much more estrogens from our environment than what healthy soy would cause. I say healthy because again it could depend greatly on the original source of the soy and how it wa grown with what chemicals. it is not the soy to be worried about. As mentioned earlier in the thread, many cultures have relied on soy for a long time with no demasculating issues. however, most of those cultures didn't grow their soy the way it is grown now. My point is that we should be more worried about our diet as a whole instead of soy. Any natural ingredient we add to our diet (using common sense) will not effect us any where near as much as all the other crap we eat, drink, and breathe now. We can effect our hormone levels to a much greater extent worrying about other things.

  11. I'm pretty sure that earlier onset of puberty is more related to better fed and healthier individuals (yay! modern medicine) and the so-called feminizing of men is probably more related to culture and over-fed individuals.

    The phytoestrogens in soy are called isoflavones and many soy products are now completely absent of isoflavones due to chemical manipulation compared to "all natural" soy products.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bubbles
    Hello guys, I am new here and just feel inclined to comment here. Let me first say i am not a nutritionist, just a 42 year old man that has enjoyed training most of my adult life along with learning about nutrition, supplements, etc as a way to be healthier and at earlier stages in my to increase my muscle size and strength. i also have 3 daughters and a wife. When my 7 year old started developing lumps under her nipples I started investigating female issues. Primarily Estrogen dominance. Let me also say that i am not vegetarian, i eat all kinds of food, etc and am not condoning any particular diet or way of life nutritionally.

    Estrogen dominance is a primary reason why most women develop earlier in life than they used to as well as why the have many female problems as they get older. it is also a big reason our current culture has s many feminized men (physically speaking). This dominance of estrogen comes from many things in our food, drink, and even air. As bodybuilders we eat a lot of chicken along with other meats. But this thread being concerned about soy phyto estrogens just seems to be somewhat misguided. If you examine the way our foods are grown/ raised with the man made chemicals and hormones/ antibiotics, etc we are getting much more estrogens from our environment than what healthy soy would cause. I say healthy because again it could depend greatly on the original source of the soy and how it wa grown with what chemicals. it is not the soy to be worried about. As mentioned earlier in the thread, many cultures have relied on soy for a long time with no demasculating issues. however, most of those cultures didn't grow their soy the way it is grown now. My point is that we should be more worried about our diet as a whole instead of soy. Any natural ingredient we add to our diet (using common sense) will not effect us any where near as much as all the other crap we eat, drink, and breathe now. We can effect our hormone levels to a much greater extent worrying about other things.
    Great post!!
    Welcome aboard!

  13. Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    I'm pretty sure that earlier onset of puberty is more related to better fed and healthier individuals (yay! modern medicine) and the so-called feminizing of men is probably more related to culture and over-fed individuals.

    The phytoestrogens in soy are called isoflavones and many soy products are now completely absent of isoflavones due to chemical manipulation compared to "all natural" soy products.
    I would like to agree wit the first part of your statement but truthfully we are NOT a better fed culture than we used to be and as a whole we are definitely not healthier. As to the second part I understand but that again just goes back to why worry about the soy as a culprit for estrogen introduction. To me this discussion equates to police scrutinizing someone for using foul language in public when there are drunks driving by as they do so.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball
    I'm pretty sure that earlier onset of puberty is more related to better fed and healthier individuals (yay! modern medicine) and the so-called feminizing of men is probably more related to culture and over-fed individuals.

    The phytoestrogens in soy are called isoflavones and many soy products are now completely absent of isoflavones due to chemical manipulation compared to "all natural" soy products.
    This is not a good thing, there is growing concern in the medical community of early onset puberty in girls, some as young as 7-8 years old.
    There is a lot of speculation on the cause, but nothing definitive.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    Good read, as usual. The whole IF theory is really taking off. Now all the super pure paleo folks are gonna go nuts and be like "see?! Cavemen ate usually one massive meal a day, so should we!"

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Kacadie View Post
    Why even mess around. Water bottles have plastic that secrete estrogen, and if left out in the sun, the plastic leaks the estrogen into the water. I stay away from anything soy-based just to be safe. I mean, I'm sure it's ok to eat some edamame every once and a while, and it is actually delicious, .
    me likey
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Kacadie View Post
    Where does beef serum sit?
    14E
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  18. I was interested in this topic as well. I drink protein shakes in Soy Milk as it's lower calories and thus makes it easier to fit into my macros. I've had several people tell me that the Soy Milk is the worst thing you can drink of the non-lactose milks. I've found a lot of hysteria online about it but not a lot of medical info/studies on the matter.
    **G D I** --Bruce the Destroyer--

  19. Quote Originally Posted by D2footballjrc View Post
    I was interested in this topic as well. I drink protein shakes in Soy Milk as it's lower calories and thus makes it easier to fit into my macros. I've had several people tell me that the Soy Milk is the worst thing you can drink of the non-lactose milks. I've found a lot of hysteria online about it but not a lot of medical info/studies on the matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by in10city View Post
    You realize that cow milk contains estrogens and unlike soymilk actually DOES transiently increase estrogen including E1 right? Funny how ignorami pull the estrogen card with soy but merrily plow away at milk.
    ...

  20. Quote Originally Posted by D2footballjrc View Post
    I was interested in this topic as well. I drink protein shakes in Soy Milk as it's lower calories and thus makes it easier to fit into my macros. I've had several people tell me that the Soy Milk is the worst thing you can drink of the non-lactose milks. I've found a lot of hysteria online about it but not a lot of medical info/studies on the matter.
    i drink my protein in soy milk too

    i think i am below any threshold of soy intake that would cause any issues though
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bubbles View Post
    Hello guys, I am new here and just feel inclined to comment here. Let me first say i am not a nutritionist, just a 42 year old man that has enjoyed training most of my adult life along with learning about nutrition, supplements, etc as a way to be healthier and at earlier stages in my to increase my muscle size and strength. i also have 3 daughters and a wife. When my 7 year old started developing lumps under her nipples I started investigating female issues. Primarily Estrogen dominance. Let me also say that i am not vegetarian, i eat all kinds of food, etc and am not condoning any particular diet or way of life nutritionally.

    Estrogen dominance is a primary reason why most women develop earlier in life than they used to as well as why the have many female problems as they get older. it is also a big reason our current culture has s many feminized men (physically speaking). This dominance of estrogen comes from many things in our food, drink, and even air. As bodybuilders we eat a lot of chicken along with other meats. But this thread being concerned about soy phyto estrogens just seems to be somewhat misguided. If you examine the way our foods are grown/ raised with the man made chemicals and hormones/ antibiotics, etc we are getting much more estrogens from our environment than what healthy soy would cause. I say healthy because again it could depend greatly on the original source of the soy and how it wa grown with what chemicals. it is not the soy to be worried about. As mentioned earlier in the thread, many cultures have relied on soy for a long time with no demasculating issues. however, most of those cultures didn't grow their soy the way it is grown now. My point is that we should be more worried about our diet as a whole instead of soy. Any natural ingredient we add to our diet (using common sense) will not effect us any where near as much as all the other crap we eat, drink, and breathe now. We can effect our hormone levels to a much greater extent worrying about other things.
    This is just more reason to constantly be on TestForce 2/3, right?

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i drink my protein in soy milk too

    i think i am below any threshold of soy intake that would cause any issues though
    I'd think I'd be under the thresholds most days as well as I'm looking around max of 16oz of Soy Milk a day.

    I do use Soy Flour every once in awhile for baking, but I usually stick to Almond Flour, VP (vegetable Protein), and golden flax seed meal to cook with. I find Soy flour adds a tinge of taste that is hard to mask when making breads.
    **G D I** --Bruce the Destroyer--

  23. Quote Originally Posted by D2footballjrc

    I'd think I'd be under the thresholds most days as well as I'm looking around max of 16oz of Soy Milk a day.

    I do use Soy Flour every once in awhile for baking, but I usually stick to Almond Flour, VP (vegetable Protein), and golden flax seed meal to cook with. I find Soy flour adds a tinge of taste that is hard to mask when making breads.
    You're a cool cat d2 - baking machine : D
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Valdez

    You're a cool cat d2 - baking machine : D
    I do love to experiment. I started eating primal a bit over a week ago so Ive shifted more that route. Goal is to figure out how to cook chinese and still eat primal :-)
    **G D I** --Bruce the Destroyer--

  25. Quote Originally Posted by D2footballjrc

    I do love to experiment. I started eating primal a bit over a week ago so Ive shifted more that route. Goal is to figure out how to cook chinese and still eat primal :-)
    Where have you been?! Haven't seen you around the bro page either! I was worried! Similar to paleo?! Or do you eat all your food raw like a beast?!
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position
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