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EC and Craze

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    EC and Craze


    Hi

    Been reading a lot of your technical comments and want to thank you for providing a valuable insight into this mysterious world of supplements. I'm not a chemist and a lot of it goes over my head, but that which I can understand is valued and appreciated.

    I've asked the following question on bb.com and nobody (in particular anyone from DS) has offered any explanation and I believe it to be important as EC seems to be the gold standard for what it does, as does Craze (pending clarification of the lawsuit of course).

    My question is

    What ingredient on Craze makes it in advisable to stack with EC in the same day. I'm not suggesting stacking them together at the same time - that would be madness and possibly suicide - but a daily protocol of say

    0530 - Craze PWO (I workout at around 0615)
    1130 - EC (24mg ephedrine HCl, 200mg caffeine)
    1730 - EC

    The two are 6 hours apart, but this still provokes caution. If its not the caffeine (600mg per day total assuming no other caffeine ingestion), then what is it in Craze that can adversely effect the mechanisms of Ephedrine which can lead to danger?

    My apologies if this has already been asked - if Craze is to continue to be sold and as popular as it is a present, then I'm sure I'm not gonna be the only one with this issue when it comes to cutting.

    Many thanks and keep up the sterling work.

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    Terrible idea
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    Yes, but WHY?

    All I get is this reply but no specifics...
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    Too many stims . Think heart attack and you know why it's a bad idea
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    How does it differ from 3 x EC though?

    Is craze THAT potent?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxxon View Post
    How does it differ from 3 x EC though?

    Is craze THAT potent?
    take what ever the F*ck you wanna take
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    Thanks. I will.

    A more technical reason than that would've been appreciated though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxxon View Post
    Hi

    Been reading a lot of your technical comments and want to thank you for providing a valuable insight into this mysterious world of supplements. I'm not a chemist and a lot of it goes over my head, but that which I can understand is valued and appreciated.

    I've asked the following question on bb.com and nobody (in particular anyone from DS) has offered any explanation and I believe it to be important as EC seems to be the gold standard for what it does, as does Craze (pending clarification of the lawsuit of course).

    My question is

    What ingredient on Craze makes it in advisable to stack with EC in the same day. I'm not suggesting stacking them together at the same time - that would be madness and possibly suicide - but a daily protocol of say

    0530 - Craze PWO (I workout at around 0615)
    1130 - EC (24mg ephedrine HCl, 200mg caffeine)
    1730 - EC

    The two are 6 hours apart, but this still provokes caution. If its not the caffeine (600mg per day total assuming no other caffeine ingestion), then what is it in Craze that can adversely effect the mechanisms of Ephedrine which can lead to danger?

    My apologies if this has already been asked - if Craze is to continue to be sold and as popular as it is a present, then I'm sure I'm not gonna be the only one with this issue when it comes to cutting.

    Many thanks and keep up the sterling work.

    I have no idea how craze works or what in it does what. It sounds like DS (or their reps at least) are equally in the dark here

    good luck
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

    I have no idea how craze works or what in it does what. It sounds like DS (or their reps at least) are equally in the dark here

    good luck
    Thanks for the reply. I've been reading the Craze "lawsuit" thread and reps to you for at least trying to figure it out. I'll keep an eye on it for developments.

    Mean time, I'll not use Craze and EC on the same day.

    Thank you.
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    I see it as being individual dependent, I am taking dexaprine and ephedrine/clen (off/on) and my BP/heart rate are entirely fine. That being said, be careful, start with half a dose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oogaly_boogal
    I see it as being individual dependent, I am taking dexaprine and ephedrine/clen (off/on) and my BP/heart rate are entirely fine. That being said, be careful, start with half a dose.
    Agreed. Actually I have found that EC taken 6 hours from Craze is fine. My BP has actually lowered over a ten day period taken at the same time (just before the first dose of EC) from 128/74 to 108/67 with a resting HR of 66 both times.

    Having said that I shall keep monitoring. but at the moment, Craze (2 scoops) and 2 doses of EC per day works absolutely fine.
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    Dude... WAY OVER BOARD... I've used two scoops of craze and 1 Bronkaid before and felt great but dude are you trying to kill yourself?
    PES R&D
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxxon

    Agreed. Actually I have found that EC taken 6 hours from Craze is fine. My BP has actually lowered over a ten day period taken at the same time (just before the first dose of EC) from 128/74 to 108/67 with a resting HR of 66 both times.

    Having said that I shall keep monitoring. but at the moment, Craze (2 scoops) and 2 doses of EC per day works absolutely fine.
    You know zaxxxon, I experienced the same thing regarding BP. Took two scoops of Craze before work one morning, had a dr appt at noon ( no food) and my bp was lower than it usually would be. I thought that was interesting...
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    Quote Originally Posted by southsideguy View Post
    You know zaxxxon, I experienced the same thing regarding BP. Took two scoops of Craze before work one morning, had a dr appt at noon ( no food) and my bp was lower than it usually would be. I thought that was interesting...

    sympathomimetics can either lower or raise blood pressure depending on what receptors they target. For instance Beta2 agonists (clen) actually can lower blood pressure
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonRubio
    Dude... WAY OVER BOARD... I've used two scoops of craze and 1 Bronkaid before and felt great but dude are you trying to kill yourself?
    Killing myself is obviously not top of my list but with respect, I've had no other tangible answer as to why you can't run Craze and EC like this other than

    "Dude, you're gonna kill yourself."

    Thats not really helpful when I'm suffering no outwardly adverse effects and my BP is fine.

    Unless I'm missing something...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxxon View Post
    I've had no other tangible answer as to why you can't run Craze and EC like this other than

    No one knows what exactly is in Craze, much less how the ingredients would interact with EC. You are in uncharted territory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madchemist

    No one knows what exactly is in Craze, much less how the ingredients would interact with EC. You are in uncharted territory.
    When you look at it like that, then you have a very valid point.

    Assuming DS didn't make this product with their eyes closed, surely somebody knows what's in it and understands its interactions.

    Surely?
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    If you need to take EC with craze then you probably would be better off taking a break from stimulants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxxon View Post
    When you look at it like that, then you have a very valid point.

    Assuming DS didn't make this product with their eyes closed, surely somebody knows what's in it and understands its interactions.

    Surely?
    None of the ingredients that have been validated (N-benzyl-PEA & N,N-dimethyl-PEA) have been tested on mammals/rodents/humans and so there is literally no way DS could know how they could interact with anything else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone
    If you need to take EC with craze then you probably would be better off taking a break from stimulants.
    Can I re-iterate, I DO NOT take EC with Craze, I just replace my first EC of the day with craze and take the second EC at least six hours apart from it.

    If Craze was, say, White Flood or Rage, everyone would be saying that these products would be perfectly OK to substitute the first dose of C and include the E.

    I take no other stims during the day (drink decaf coffee etc).

    The traditional and often encouraged dosage scheme of 3x EC per day is always seen as perfectly OK and safe (if you're careful) but Craze seems to throw up all sorts of sharp intakes of breath.

    I'm generally interested as to know why.

    It can't be a question that's not been asked before.

    Anyway, thanks and respect to all who know better than I. I thoroughly respect your options and knowledge.

    Cheers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madchemist

    None of the ingredients that have been validated (N-benzyl-PEA & N,N-dimethyl-PEA) have been tested on mammals/rodents/humans and so there is literally no way DS could know how they could interact with anything else.
    Ah, you posted this as I was writing the last post.

    Interesting fact. And one for serious consideration. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxxon View Post
    Can I re-iterate, I DO NOT take EC with Craze, I just replace my first EC of the day with craze and take the second EC at least six hours apart from it.

    If Craze was, say, White Flood or Rage, everyone would be saying that these products would be perfectly OK to substitute the first dose of C and include the E.

    I take no other stims during the day (drink decaf coffee etc).

    The traditional and often encouraged dosage scheme of 3x EC per day is always seen as perfectly OK and safe (if you're careful) but Craze seems to throw up all sorts of sharp intakes of breath.

    I'm generally interested as to know why.

    It can't be a question that's not been asked before.

    Anyway, thanks and respect to all who know better than I. I thoroughly respect your options and knowledge.

    Cheers.

    I would say if your questioning it in your head and people are saying not to do it than you are better off not doing it. It seems you want a technical explanation of why this is a bad idea and there doesn't seem to be one. MadChemist I think had a pretty good answer though.
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    I recall DS is being sued for something to do with Craze, not quite sure what.

    I assume that is why no one is telling you what is in it....
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    Honestly, this conversation is getting blown out of proportion. The important thing is to know yourself. My last run of EC, I was up to 3 x 37.5 MG Ephedrine + 3 x 200 mg caffeine by the end. Sometimes I'd also throw in some Craze PWO. All that told me is that I am too stim tolerant at the moment, work is stressful, and I'm probably not getting enough sleep. You might not be able to handle half of that -- or you may be able to handle twice that -- but you have to listen to your body.

    All that being said, beware, in my experience the more overboard on stims you go, the more your adrenals will be thrown off at the end. For me, that results in needing massive amounts of sleep and being constantly fatigued after my EC cycle is over. I can't imagine the Craze would help that situation at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by owlicks
    Honestly, this conversation is getting blown out of proportion. The important thing is to know yourself. My last run of EC, I was up to 3 x 37.5 MG Ephedrine + 3 x 200 mg caffeine by the end. Sometimes I'd also throw in some Craze PWO. All that told me is that I am too stim tolerant at the moment, work is stressful, and I'm probably not getting enough sleep. You might not be able to handle half of that -- or you may be able to handle twice that -- but you have to listen to your body.

    All that being said, beware, in my experience the more overboard on stims you go, the more your adrenals will be thrown off at the end. For me, that results in needing massive amounts of sleep and being constantly fatigued after my EC cycle is over. I can't imagine the Craze would help that situation at all.
    Thanks for your comment. Listening to your body is good advice but only when you know exactly what you're putting into your body and how it interacts with other stuff you put into your body at the same time (or time period).

    What I've drawn from this thread is that there are unknowns within Craze that COULD, regardless of whether your body is fine with it per sť, cause harmful or unexpected side effects from continual consumption.

    It strikes me as being a little unusual that this particular product, over all the other PreWO products provokes this kind of caution when used with Ephedrine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madchemist

    None of the ingredients that have been validated (N-benzyl-PEA & N,N-dimethyl-PEA) have been tested on mammals/rodents/humans and so there is literally no way DS could know how they could interact with anything else.
    Just as an additional thought on this, technically how long does an ingredient/supplement have to be tested on mammals/humans before it is deemed safe to market.

    I only ask this as Mr Cahill has always stated on other forums that he, his family and friends and the other DS guys have been using it extensively before it came to market, under a variety of conditions and combinations.

    Does this count? Should we trust in this or is it just taking someone on their word?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxxon View Post
    Just as an additional thought on this, technically how long does an ingredient/supplement have to be tested on mammals/humans before it is deemed safe to market.

    I only ask this as Mr Cahill has always stated on other forums that he, his family and friends and the other DS guys have been using it extensively before it came to market, under a variety of conditions and combinations.

    Does this count? Should we trust in this or is it just taking someone on their word?

    there are no specific requirements for a new supplement ingredient to be tested on humans or animals before marketing. There is a statement that goes to the effect that there should be "a reasonable expectation of safety"

    The FDA is now pushing for extensive safety studies to be done before a new ingredient can be marketed. That would essentially eliminate almost all new innovation in the industry, because supplement companies cannot afford what they are talking about. Who would want to throw hundredes of thousands of dollars into studies on an ingredient that is not even being marketed yet, with the possibility that the FDA may still deny the ingredient? Not to mention the fact that even if the ingredient gets approval it may not sell and leave the company stiffed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxxon View Post
    I only ask this as Mr Cahill has always stated on other forums that he, his family and friends and the other DS guys have been using it extensively before it came to market, under a variety of conditions and combinations.

    Does this count? Should we trust in this or is it just taking someone on their word?

    didnt he say the exact thing about superdrol?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

    didnt he say the exact thing about superdrol?
    What was the story (briefly)? One shouldn't really rake up the past, but if it's relevant...
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    And do I get the feeling that the DS team are increasingly subject to suspicion when in the past (before the lawsuit hit the fan), almost every comment I have read about Matt and DS have been overwhelmingly complimentary?

    No hate on them, I'm just curious...
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    I took my EC with Craze a few times. I'm still alive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxxon View Post
    And do I get the feeling that the DS team are increasingly subject to suspicion when in the past (before the lawsuit hit the fan), almost every comment I have read about Matt and DS have been overwhelmingly complimentary?

    No hate on them, I'm just curious...
    They produced a few batches of fake ATD in the past, which PA uncovered.

    They also marketed "95% Divanil," which Thermolife revealed to be much lower then 95%.

    They also sold "turkesterone" to gaspari and a few other companies, which Thermolife revealed to be bunk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madchemist

    They produced a few batches of fake ATD in the past, which PA uncovered.

    They also marketed "95% Divanil," which Thermolife revealed to be much lower then 95%.

    They also sold "turkesterone" to gaspari and a few other companies, which Thermolife revealed to be bunk.
    What the hell man...what the hell
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    Quote Originally Posted by madchemist

    They produced a few batches of fake ATD in the past, which PA uncovered.

    They also marketed "95% Divanil," which Thermolife revealed to be much lower then 95%.

    They also sold "turkesterone" to gaspari and a few other companies, which Thermolife revealed to be bunk.
    Hmmm. That's not just a one off misunderstanding then. More a catalogue of mis-information.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    didnt he say the exact thing about superdrol?
    Yes it was marketed as an almost side effect free prohormone ,that was how it was marketed by DS, Of course we all know the real deal now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin
    Yes it was marketed as an almost side effect free prohormone ,that was how it was marketed by DS, Of course we all know the real deal now.
    Is it still for sale? Thought I might research this by searching this forum, but a lot of Superdrol talk is recent.

    DS don't sell it, so who does? (not interested in buying it, just genuinely curious...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxxon View Post
    Is it still for sale? Thought I might research this by searching this forum, but a lot of Superdrol talk is recent.

    DS don't sell it, so who does? (not interested in buying it, just genuinely curious...
    superdrol no longer made by DS, fusion sports however make a clone of it called methdrol.

    also you may (or may not) be interested to know iforcenutrition quite recently produced dimethazine which is in essence double bonded superdrol with an azine bridge. also aisportsnutrition basically altered superdrol with cyano bond instead of 2a methyl superdrol bond to create cynostane.

    i have been wondering though as this was a bit before my time but did/do people really think a completely side effect free PH exists/existed? liver toxicity and androgenic effects are always going to be near by...

    anyway wouldn't everything just be so much easier if androstenedione was the only PH ever created...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JezPudzian View Post
    superdrol no longer made by DS, fusion sports however make a clone of it called methdrol.

    also you may (or may not) be interested to know iforcenutrition quite recently produced dimethazine which is in essence double bonded superdrol with an azine bridge. also aisportsnutrition basically altered superdrol with cyano bond instead of 2a methyl superdrol bond to create cynostane.

    i have been wondering though as this was a bit before my time but did/do people really think a completely side effect free PH exists/existed? liver toxicity and androgenic effects are always going to be near by...

    anyway wouldn't everything just be so much easier if androstenedione was the only PH ever created...
    good point
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    don't stress too much I too would like to know, I only take craze 2-3day a week @ 2 scops as is but I have taken Stims in the same day like OEP @ 3 caps ED and OxyECA @ 2 caps ED and no issues. I wish someone would give some light on craze and it's MOA, but I doubt it will hapen anytime soon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxxon View Post
    Is it still for sale? Thought I might research this by searching this forum, but a lot of Superdrol talk is recent.

    DS don't sell it, so who does? (not interested in buying it, just genuinely curious...
    DS introduced it into the supplement market years ago shortly after the prohormone ban in 2006 (it was originally invented by big pharma in the 50's, but never brought to market for medicinal use). Their claim at the time was that it wasn't hepatotoxic at all, but we know now that it's one of the more hepatotoxic steroids around.

    There's plenty of supplement companies that still sell it, but it is in the process of being rescheduled as a controlled substance by the DEA. Once that happens, it'll only be available in the US by illegal means.
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    Last Post: 10-13-2011, 04:20 PM

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