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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza

    I'm kinda new to BB'ing , started almost a year ago , past july , and well loving it , used to be a fat 180lb kid , 5'5" and 30% bf or so haha...changed a lot , and if u got good advice for a good bulk for this little pup I would appreciate it ;p!! i dont wanna be fat kid anymore :3!!!
    What? This isn't pats corner, or training advice from pa, its advanced discussion.

    Read a book, lots of info in them things I here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    thats not a pct. thats an extension of your cycle. these are androgens
    you're saying that MK-2866 (Ostarine) is an androgen and cannot be used with PCT?
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronMagLabs View Post
    you're saying that MK-2866 (Ostarine) is an androgen and cannot be used with PCT?

    the word androgen is sometimes thrown around in the medical literature when referring to AAS and i think it can just as well be thrown around with SARMs. Androgens are male sex hormones and ostarine is a synthetic analog of male sex hormones


    basically u wouldnt consider anavar part of a PCT because its an AAS. Ostarine is (pharmacologically if not chemically) an AAS
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    At the end of the day, people can label "sarms" as they please (steroids, sarms, androgens, non-androgenic substances). The fact is that some people are getting shut down from Ostarine. This substantiates your position that these are androgenic enough to adversely impact the HPTA and caution needs to be taken with use (w/ respect to hpta).


    Perhaps also relevant is that many forget the studies done on sarms were on doses that pale in comparison to the doses we bb'ers are using.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the word androgen is sometimes thrown around in the medical literature when referring to AAS and i think it can just as well be thrown around with SARMs. Androgens are male sex hormones and ostarine is a synthetic analog of male sex hormones


    basically u wouldnt consider anavar part of a PCT because its an AAS. Ostarine is (pharmacologically if not chemically) an AAS
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronMagLabs View Post
    you're saying that MK-2866 (Ostarine) is an androgen and cannot be used with PCT?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the word androgen is sometimes thrown around in the medical literature when referring to AAS and i think it can just as well be thrown around with SARMs. Androgens are male sex hormones and ostarine is a synthetic analog of male sex hormones

    basically u wouldnt consider anavar part of a PCT because its an AAS. Ostarine is (pharmacologically if not chemically) an AAS
    I agree with Pat and it actually works both ways. Some AAS are actually being classified as SARMS now.

    17β-Hydroxyestra-4,9,11-trien-3-one (trenbolone) exhibits tissue selective anabolic activity: effects on muscle, bone, adiposity, hemoglobin, and prostate.

    Selective androgen receptor modulators (SARMs) now under development can protect against muscle and bone loss without causing prostate growth or polycythemia. 17β-Hydroxyestra-4,9,11-trien-3-one (trenbolone), a potent testosterone analog, may have SARM-like actions because, unlike testosterone, trenbolone does not undergo tissue-specific 5α-reduction to form more potent androgens. We tested the hypothesis that trenbolone-enanthate (TREN) might prevent orchiectomy-induced losses in muscle and bone and visceral fat accumulation without increasing prostate mass or resulting in adverse hemoglobin elevations. Male F344 rats aged 3 mo underwent orchiectomy or remained intact and were administered graded doses of TREN, supraphysiological testosterone-enanthate, or vehicle for 29 days. In both intact and orchiectomized animals, all TREN doses and supraphysiological testosterone-enanthate augmented androgen-sensitive levator ani/bulbocavernosus muscle mass by 35-40% above shams (P ≤ 0.001) and produced a dose-dependent partial protection against orchiectomy-induced total and trabecular bone mineral density losses (P < 0.05) and visceral fat accumulation (P < 0.05). The lowest doses of TREN successfully maintained prostate mass and hemoglobin concentrations at sham levels in both intact and orchiectomized animals, whereas supraphysiological testosterone-enanthate and high-dose TREN elevated prostate mass by 84 and 68%, respectively (P < 0.01). In summary, low-dose administration of the non-5α-reducible androgen TREN maintains prostate mass and hemoglobin concentrations near the level of shams while producing potent myotrophic actions in skeletal muscle and partial protection against orchiectomy-induced bone loss and visceral fat accumulation. Our findings indicate that TREN has advantages over supraphysiological testosterone and supports the need for future preclinical studies examining the viability of TREN as an option for androgen replacement therapy.

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/300/4/E650.long
    What I find interesting is this new category of SARMS may allow for some AAS to be redefined and thus allow for more research to be done with them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    u may wanna do a pct after ostarine, especially if you are planning on taking larger dosages and/or longer duration
    Can a SARM such as ostarine(or other SARM's) be taken(stacked) during a oral PH/DS cycle? (A PH/DS such as Epi or SD)

    Or is a SARM to be taken only solo or along with a PCT after a oral PH/DS cycle?
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    Just kidding
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    Does Ostarine in any way interfere/magnify with presciption meds?
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    Quote Originally Posted by middleageguy View Post
    Can a SARM such as ostarine(or other SARM's) be taken(stacked) during a oral PH/DS cycle? (A PH/DS such as Epi or SD)

    Or is a SARM to be taken only solo or along with a PCT after a oral PH/DS cycle?
    you can take it any way you want. just use it like you would an anavar or primobolan
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProteinMurder View Post
    Does Ostarine in any way interfere/magnify with presciption meds?

    until ostarine gets approved by the FDA i dont think the company that is developing it willl be releasing any drug interaction data they may be privy to


    ostarine you get on the internet is not meant for human consumption of course
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    until ostarine gets approved by the FDA i dont think the company that is developing it willl be releasing any drug interaction data they may be privy to


    ostarine you get on the internet is not meant for human consumption of course
    is Osta RX real ostarine?

    Granted now that the price has doubled it may make more sense to get it from a decent Research lab
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbrooks View Post
    is Osta RX real ostarine?
    i have tested grey market ostarine and found what looked like ostarine. i dont remember what the brands were
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    Quote Originally Posted by middleageguy View Post
    Can a SARM such as ostarine(or other SARM's) be taken(stacked) during a oral PH/DS cycle? (A PH/DS such as Epi or SD)

    Or is a SARM to be taken only solo or along with a PCT after a oral PH/DS cycle?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    you can take it any way you want. just use it like you would an anavar or primobolan
    I was asking about how I always see posted not to take/stack 2 methylated compounds such as Epi or SD.

    I’m not knowable of liver toxicity of different compounds.
    I went to wikipedia and serched for anavar & primobolan. It says they are methylated. Seems to also say low liver toxicity.

    Since they are methylated should they not be taken with A PH/DS such as Epi or SD?
    Or is the liver toxicity so low it would not be an issue?

    Also these compounds ostarine, anavar & primobolan sound like another steroid. Why are they called SARM's?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbrooks View Post
    is Osta RX real ostarine?

    Granted now that the price has doubled it may make more sense to get it from a decent Research lab
    If PA wants to test our Osta Rx for you guys I would be happy to send him a bottle.
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    na, send me a bottle, i'll test it for you, and you wont have to pay me 75 dollars!

    i've got my mass spectrosphygmomenometer all fired up and read to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by middleageguy View Post
    I was asking about how I always see posted not to take/stack 2 methylated compounds such as Epi or SD.

    I’m not knowable of liver toxicity of different compounds.
    I went to wikipedia and serched for anavar & primobolan. It says they are methylated. Seems to also say low liver toxicity.

    Since they are methylated should they not be taken with A PH/DS such as Epi or SD?
    Or is the liver toxicity so low it would not be an issue?

    Also these compounds ostarine, anavar & primobolan sound like another steroid. Why are they called SARM's?

    i dont think its necessarily bad to stack two 17a-alkylated AAS as long as the total number of milligrams is not too great.

    BTW all AAS are SARMs (other than testosterone i guess) but not all SARMs are AAS. Some SARMs are just like AAS except for the "S" part
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronMagLabs View Post
    If PA wants to test our Osta Rx for you guys I would be happy to send him a bottle.
    u just need to send some caps but also you need to send 100 bucks
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    Quote Originally Posted by middleageguy

    Can a SARM such as ostarine(or other SARM's) be taken(stacked) during a oral PH/DS cycle? (A PH/DS such as Epi or SD)

    Or is a SARM to be taken only solo or along with a PCT after a oral PH/DS cycle?
    The thing with sarms is that they are designed to be selective e.g. Muscle and bone tissue. As opposed to ph which are not selective and affect tissues in the body we may not necessarily want to be affected such as the prostate and so forth. If a sarm is stacked with a ph you could almost consider it an expensive anabolic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    The thing with sarms is that they are designed to be selective e.g. Muscle and bone tissue. As opposed to ph which are not selective and affect tissues in the body we may not necessarily want to be affected such as the prostate and so forth. If a sarm is stacked with a ph you could almost consider it an expensive anabolic.
    anabolic steroids were designed to be selective like that too. and many prohormones are precrursors to anabolic steroids or anabolic steroids that never made it to market as drugs

    no anabolic steroid was able to acheive complete selectivety of anabolic from androgenic effects. And likewise, these SARMs (although they can recheive a remarkable degree of selectivity at lower dosages) have not acheived complete selectivity either. In fact I see little evidence that they are superior in this regard to the cleanest of the AAS (primo, anavar, nandrolone)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

    anabolic steroids were designed to be selective like that too. and many prohormones are precrursors to anabolic steroids or anabolic steroids that never made it to market as drugs

    no anabolic steroid was able to acheive complete selectivety of anabolic from androgenic effects. And likewise, these SARMs (although they can recheive a remarkable degree of selectivity at lower dosages) have not acheived complete selectivity either. In fact I see little evidence that they are superior in this regard to the cleanest of the AAS (primo, anavar, nandrolone)
    True, fair enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    u just need to send some caps but also you need to send 100 bucks
    Thanks, but we already have everything 3rd party tested, I just wanted everyone here to know we have no issues with our products being tested, Osta Rx or anything else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronMagLabs View Post
    Thanks, but we already have everything 3rd party tested, I just wanted everyone here to know we have no issues with our products being tested, Osta Rx or anything else.
    ostarine wouldnt be something i would be so suspicious of anyway, since the stuff from asia has been verified already

    if you were selling follistatin 344 otoh i would not be so sure
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i have tested grey market ostarine and found what looked like ostarine. i dont remember what the brands were
    You find this, right? http://www.ama-assn.org/resources/do.../enobosarm.pdf
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    sub'd for info
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    Seeing as you are on all the boards have you seen bloodwork from anyone running ostarine in pct at lower doses? Or you just suspect based on your knowledge that it would not allow for optimal hpta recovery?
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    Quote Originally Posted by smt1 View Post
    i dont recall

    its on my hard drive at work i can check later
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    Seeing as you are on all the boards have you seen bloodwork from anyone running ostarine in pct at lower doses? Or you just suspect based on your knowledge that it would not allow for optimal hpta recovery?
    it is suppressive when taken by itself. this has been shown not only in people running it solo but i believe in actual studies as well

    i dont need to see anyone take it as part of a pct
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    it is suppressive when taken by itself. this has been shown not only in people running it solo but i believe in actual studies as well

    i dont need to see anyone take it as part of a pct
    Yes, I agree, but the studies showed no suppression at 3 mg. Perhaps there would also be no suppression at 10 mg. Hence why I said lower dose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    Yes, I agree, but the studies showed no suppression at 3 mg. Perhaps there would also be no suppression at 10 mg. Hence why I said lower dose.

    any dose of the stuff where you will see no suppression will be worthless for gains. that i will bet you. so what is the point of using it during pct other than to waste your money?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    any dose of the stuff where you will see no suppression will be worthless for gains. that i will bet you. so what is the point of using it during pct other than to waste your money?
    If that is the case then I would agree. But I assume there must be some dose where you are almost to the suppressive stage but not quite there, at which point you might get some anabolic effect to save gains, at least in the first few weeks of pct. I guess you would not agree with that assumption.
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