Clenbuterol/albuterol/salbuterol in PCT?

[oogaly_boogal]

My wonderment is, in PCT, would clenbuterol and or albuterol assist in the retention of muscle mass? I have yet to find a consensus on the use of it, justified by evidence.


If coupled with a cortisol blocker/ AI much like ERASE, wouldn't clenbuterol help with the retention of muscle mass and the loss of fat in PCT?

Oral albuterol dosing during the latter ... [J Strength Cond Res. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

from a forum member :

" or adrenoceptors, belong to the G-protein class of coupled receptors, and are the most prominent receptors in the adipose membrane, besides also being expressed in skeletal muscle tissue. These adipose-membrane receptors are classified as either alpha- or beta-adrenoceptors. Although these beta and alpha adrenoceptors share the same messenger, cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP), the specific transduction pathway depends on the receptor type (alpha or beta). [Cyclic AMP is the messenger for beta adrenoceptors. Many disease states are associated with low levels of the second messenger system, 3,5 cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP). These include, for example, hypertension, obesity, asthma, to name a few. On the other hand, increased cAMP levels are known to, for instance, stimulate lipolytic activity, trigger the levels of a Leydig-cell cholesterol-transfer protein, known as steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StaR) and steroidogenesis, stimulate the HPTA, reduce histamine release (with implications for allergic conditions), inhibit platelet aggregation, improve thyroid function, improve the contractile force of cardiac muscles, boost fat metabolism, and so on. Put simply, cyclic AMP and the host of chemical actions and metabolic processes it activates, together form a complex second messenger system that modulates the intricate and powerful effects of hormones in our body, both lipolytic/anti-catabolic and anabolic."


I wrote more with more links but my laptop crashed. So PA what is your take?

 

[DJBeanPole]

I come from a background in respiratory therapy and I must immediately question the oral bio-availability of (at least) albuterol. Wouldn't this be better taken the normal, inhaled, route?

 

[oogaly_boogal]

I come from a background in respiratory therapy and I must immediately question the oral bio-availability of (at least) albuterol. Wouldn't this be better taken the normal, inhaled, route?

I used to take albuterol (im asthmatic) and know that there is an oral version (pills) given to people. You would need to ingest it orally as the amount it shows up as anabolic, is far above that in an entire inhaler.

 

[DJBeanPole]

I used to take albuterol (im asthmatic) and know that there is an oral version (pills) given to people. You would need to ingest it orally as the amount it shows up as anabolic, is far above that in an entire inhaler.

Yikes. Hardly ever see the prescribed though... I guess because people aren't using it for this reason Some of it MUST get gobbled up by the liver, because if what you say is true... that amount of albuterol? You'd be bouncing off the walls and your heart rate would be sky high!

 

[oogaly_boogal]

Yikes. Hardly ever see the prescribed though... I guess because people aren't using it for this reason Some of it MUST get gobbled up by the liver, because if what you say is true... that amount of albuterol? You'd be bouncing off the walls and your heart rate would be sky high!

Haha yeah your GI tract/liver would filter a lot . They have extended release tablets as well as the liquid form

 

[mattrag]

Interesting. What doses have you run albuterol? I also think using albuterol in pct is a good choice in helping preserve muscle mass and limit fat gain when hormones aren't optimal. Beta 2 agonists seem like a good choice.mmim gonna start mine soon. Just hope I don't get a heart attack lol.

 

[oogaly_boogal]

Interesting. What doses have you run albuterol? I also think using albuterol in pct is a good choice in helping preserve muscle mass and limit fat gain when hormones aren't optimal. Beta 2 agonists seem like a good choice.mmim gonna start mine soon. Just hope I don't get a heart attack lol.

I just ran recommended dosages, i don't recall i was on a lot of crap as a kid.

I have used clen before but stopped after putting on around 9lbs. I want to run it in PCT to see how well it does at preserving mass when accompanied by erase/daa.

 

[mattrag]

I just ran recommended dosages, i don't recall i was on a lot of crap as a kid.

I have used clen before but stopped after putting on around 9lbs. I want to run it in PCT to see how well it does at preserving mass when accompanied by erase/daa.

Ah, thanks! If I have anything to report about my albuterol pct I'll let you know.

 

[oogaly_boogal]

Ah, thanks! If I have anything to report about my albuterol pct I'll let you know.

awesome thanks, I have wanted to try albuterol for a while, if i recall correctly it's more anabolic than clenbuterol so it should be great in PCT coupled with something for cortisol. Since, after any stim come down your cortisol levels should spike making you lose fat/muscle.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

My wonderment is, in PCT, would clenbuterol and or albuterol assist in the retention of muscle mass? I have yet to find a consensus on the use of it, justified by evidence.


If coupled with a cortisol blocker/ AI much like ERASE, wouldn't clenbuterol help with the retention of muscle mass and the loss of fat in PCT?

Oral albuterol dosing during the latter ... [J Strength Cond Res. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

from a forum member :

" or adrenoceptors, belong to the G-protein class of coupled receptors, and are the most prominent receptors in the adipose membrane, besides also being expressed in skeletal muscle tissue. These adipose-membrane receptors are classified as either alpha- or beta-adrenoceptors. Although these beta and alpha adrenoceptors share the same messenger, cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP), the specific transduction pathway depends on the receptor type (alpha or beta). [Cyclic AMP is the messenger for beta adrenoceptors. Many disease states are associated with low levels of the second messenger system, 3,5 cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP). These include, for example, hypertension, obesity, asthma, to name a few. On the other hand, increased cAMP levels are known to, for instance, stimulate lipolytic activity, trigger the levels of a Leydig-cell cholesterol-transfer protein, known as steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StaR) and steroidogenesis, stimulate the HPTA, reduce histamine release (with implications for allergic conditions), inhibit platelet aggregation, improve thyroid function, improve the contractile force of cardiac muscles, boost fat metabolism, and so on. Put simply, cyclic AMP and the host of chemical actions and metabolic processes it activates, together form a complex second messenger system that modulates the intricate and powerful effects of hormones in our body, both lipolytic/anti-catabolic and anabolic."


I wrote more with more links but my laptop crashed. So PA what is your take?

first of all erase is NOT a cortisol product. It is an AI

a beta2 agonist may allow a temporary boost in protein deposition in the muscle but it is probably transient and will not remain. all i have seen about beta2 agonists suggests the mass gains are not retained over time

 

[Patrick Arnold]

awesome thanks, I have wanted to try albuterol for a while, if i recall correctly it's more anabolic than clenbuterol so it should be great in PCT coupled with something for cortisol. Since, after any stim come down your cortisol levels should spike making you lose fat/muscle.

i dont think there is any evidence that cortisol levels change much either during or after cycle. Sensitivity to cortisols effects on muscle and fat certainly can change

 

[jbryand101b]

Wait, so cortisol doesn't increase when using supraphysiological dosages of androgens?

 

[oogaly_boogal]

first of all erase is NOT a cortisol product. It is an AI

a beta2 agonist may allow a temporary boost in protein deposition in the muscle but it is probably transient and will not remain. all i have seen about beta2 agonists suggests the mass gains are not retained over time

Really? Erase shut down my cortisol and did hardly anything for my estrogen levels in comparison to running 6-bromo.

I suppose i will skip beta 2 agonist in pct

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Really? Erase shut down my cortisol and did hardly anything for my estrogen levels in comparison to running 6-bromo.

really? lets see your before and after blood work numbers

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Wait, so cortisol doesn't increase when using supraphysiological dosages of androgens?

I have never read about such a phenomenon in actual scientific litearture. In fact kochakian examined this to some extent in his book and he couldnt really find such a correlation

OTOH, some steroids like fluoxymesterone can disrupt cortisol metabolism by inhibiting 11b-hsd2. this may not be reflected in increased cortisol in the blood but it will increase cortisol in the kidneys, which can lead to overactivation of mineralcorticoid receptors and negative consequences such as sodium retention, potassium excretion, and hypertension

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Wait, so cortisol doesn't increase when using supraphysiological dosages of androgens?

not too many studies looking at this btw but this is one

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1985 Jun;17(3):354-9.​

[h=1]Response of serum hormones to androgen administration in power athletes.[/h]

Alén M, Reinilä M, Vihko R.
[h=3]Abstract[/h]Endocrine effects of self-administration of high doses of anabolic steroids and testosterone were investigated in five power athletes during 26 wk of training, and for the following 12-16 wk after drug withdrawal. After 26 wk of anabolic steroid and testosterone administration, serum testosterone concentrations had increased 2.3-fold. This was associated with increased concentrations of serum estradiol, which rose 7-fold to values (0.48 nmol X 1(-1) typical for females. There was a major decrease in serum FSH and LH concentrations, but they returned to control levels following drug withdrawal. However, serum testosterone concentrations stayed at low levels (9 nmol X 1(-1) ) during this follow-up period, indicating long-lasting impairment of testicular endocrine function. Serum ACTH concentrations were also decreased during steroid administration, possibly due to a corticoid-like effect of some of the anabolic steroids taken in high doses. However, no changes were seen in serum cortisol. The only consistent change in the control group was an increase in serum LH concentrations during the most intensive training, suggesting that a decreasing tendency of serum testosterone was compensated for by augmented LH secretion.

PMID: 2991700 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
​

 

[oogaly_boogal]

really? lets see your before and after blood work numbers

Point made

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Point made

 

[mattrag]

Nice info. I'm guessing the c20 product on sale now is much cheaper now for reasons stated above on the beta2 stuff. Good reads PA.

 

[jbryand101b]

not too many studies looking at this btw but this is one

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1985 Jun;17(3):354-9.​

Response of serum hormones to androgen administration in power athletes.

Alén M, Reinilä M, Vihko R.
Abstract

Endocrine effects of self-administration of high doses of anabolic steroids and testosterone were investigated in five power athletes during 26 wk of training, and for the following 12-16 wk after drug withdrawal. After 26 wk of anabolic steroid and testosterone administration, serum testosterone concentrations had increased 2.3-fold. This was associated with increased concentrations of serum estradiol, which rose 7-fold to values (0.48 nmol X 1(-1) typical for females. There was a major decrease in serum FSH and LH concentrations, but they returned to control levels following drug withdrawal. However, serum testosterone concentrations stayed at low levels (9 nmol X 1(-1) ) during this follow-up period, indicating long-lasting impairment of testicular endocrine function. Serum ACTH concentrations were also decreased during steroid administration, possibly due to a corticoid-like effect of some of the anabolic steroids taken in high doses. However, no changes were seen in serum cortisol. The only consistent change in the control group was an increase in serum LH concentrations during the most intensive training, suggesting that a decreasing tendency of serum testosterone was compensated for by augmented LH secretion.

PMID: 2991700 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
​

thank you for that, though, I dont doubt the "grand master" and would of taken your word for it, data is always nice. now I can put this bro logic to rest.

so then, would you think it would be best to use a product like 7-spray or 7-oh-dhea about a week or two prior to pct, in order to keep cortisol levels lowered, this way when you come off androgens, it may help balance out the anabolic/catabolic hormone ratio?

 

[Patrick Arnold]

thank you for that, though, I dont doubt the "grand master" and would of taken your word for it, data is always nice. now I can put this bro logic to rest.

so then, would you think it would be best to use a product like 7-spray or 7-oh-dhea about a week or two prior to pct, in order to keep cortisol levels lowered, this way when you come off androgens, it may help balance out the anabolic/catabolic hormone ratio?

dont worry about cortisol levels. dont worry about cortisol receptors. AAS dont really affect these.

however in parts of the body that express both androgen and glucocorticoid receptors it appears that AAS can block cortisol mediated transcriptonal activity. IN other words cortisol still binds to its receptor, and AAS binds to its receptor, but at the level of the DNA the cortisol receptor complex cannot carry through its signal because the AAS receptor complex is somehow interfereing with this

So when you take the AAS away the cortisol signal will be full strength again (in those tissues that have both AR and GR). I dont know which tissues these are but they definitely include liver, and muscle to some extent, and maybe adipose (not sure how AR is expressed in adipose)

 

[Patrick Arnold]

so then, would you think it would be best to use a product like 7-spray or 7-oh-dhea about a week or two prior to pct, in order to keep cortisol levels lowered, this way when you come off androgens, it may help balance out the anabolic/catabolic hormone ratio?

i see no great need for these products until the androgens are removed

BTW, some evidence exists that prolonged use of high dosages of AAS may lead to adrenal insufficiency. As you saw in that study, ACTH levels were supprressed. If this goes on long enough there could be adrenal atrophy. Also there is a case study of a horse given winny for 8 years that ended up with severe adrenal insufficiency

I dunno what the mechanism of acth suppression from aas would be

 

[jbryand101b]

so, do you think there could be any benifit to lowering cortisol levels on cycle, with a product such as 11-spray?

(i know you just said you see no benifit to adding these products until the androgens are removed but..)

am wodering about if there is any added benifit to a even higher anabolic>catabolic hormone ratio.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

so, do you think there could be any benifit to lowering cortisol levels on cycle, with a product such as 11-spray?
.

11 spray should not substantially lower cortisol levels in the blood. i assume you understand this

 

[Patrick Arnold]

so, do you think there could be any benifit to lowering cortisol levels on cycle, with a product such as 11-spray?

(i know you just said you see no benifit to adding these products until the androgens are removed but..)

am wodering about if there is any added benifit to a even higher anabolic>catabolic hormone ratio.

lowering cortisol levels in visceral adipose tissue is always beneficial for body composition whether you are on cycle or not. I dont think there is much influence of androgens in visceral adipose tissue

 

[jbryand101b]

got it, thank you for your time.

 

[oogaly_boogal]

Awesome thanks PA

 

[maria.kremens]

Does clenbuterol work better than albuterol? any thoughts, recommendations of dosing?

 

[oogaly_boogal]

I was under the impression that albuterol has a higher anabolic side, probably bro science though

 

[Primal2]

Does clenbuterol work better than albuterol? any thoughts, recommendations of dosing?

My understanding is that they are chemical cousins. Albuterol has a shorter half life than Clen is the only difference that I know of. I am sure someone else can tell us if there are more differences besides that.

 

[Jbryfit1]

i see no great need for these products until the androgens are removed

BTW, some evidence exists that prolonged use of high dosages of AAS may lead to adrenal insufficiency. As you saw in that study, ACTH levels were supprressed. If this goes on long enough there could be adrenal atrophy. Also there is a case study of a horse given winny for 8 years that ended up with severe adrenal insufficiency

I dunno what the mechanism of acth suppression from aas would be

This may account for the pseudo gout that I got while on testosterone and albuterol for a year, which went away after stopping the testosterone and albuterol.