Green Coffee Bean

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Natestreo View Post
    I agree with this as well. As a christian myself I can sympathize with someone who does not consider referencing the bible as a means of support for religion. At least not until the bible can be validated in their eyes. Relaying scientific facts with text from scripture is a reasonable way to validate the bible, at least partially.

    It is important to note that faith is necessary. There are some things that we just won't be able to confirm (who created God). But if we can validate enough things to make Faith reasonable...

    I think you see where I'm going here, hopefully?

    A few interesting points here, taken from the web:

    Scientific Facts in the Bible

    1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

    2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.

    3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth's free float in space: "He...hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).

    4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).

    5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: "Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?" (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement--that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn't discover this until 1864 when "British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing" (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).

    6. Job 38:19 asks, "Where is the way where light dwells?" Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a "way," traveling at 186,000 miles per second.

    7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..."

    8. "Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth" (Time, Dec. 1976).

    9. Solomon described a "cycle" of air currents two thousand years before scientists "discovered" them. "The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits" (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

    10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.

    11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body's mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled," and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."

    12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15-24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called "behemoth." Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo's tail isn't like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, "He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.

    13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under "running water."

    14. Luke 17:34-36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.

    15. "During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to 'bad air' or 'evil spirits.' However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: 'The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation' (A History of Medicine)." Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world's religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, "Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence." (11:3 continued)
    I have to tell you...some of this is downright wrong.

    The idea that the earth was round was well known to the greeks, the egyptians, and the romans. This is illustrated in their artwork, as well as their writings. The information got lost during the "dark ages" when guess who was in control........the Catholic church.

    Also, it is fairly well established that Columbus knew (as did many other explorers) about the new world. It was not new, as there were maps at the time that illustrated this "new world". Columbus and religion are quite a touchy subject, especially when looking at what his faith is purported as being.

    Alot of the other quotes you use are looking for very loose interpretations....which you and wherever you sourced this most certainly provide. "the stars sang" equals radio waves? That is square peg being fit in a circular hole

    I dont think we want to use leviticus as a source of anything imo....otherwise my daughter better be careful as I am allowed to sell her into slavery per leviticus

    I dont mean to come off harsh at all...my point is (and it seems yours to an extent) there needs to be a great deal of pure blind faith when dealing with this, and for many of us (myself included) that is not possible.


  2. I keep popping back in here for some 'advanced discussion' on green coffee bean lol.
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  3. @David Dunn .

    I agree with your point about the new testament yet you cannot tell me that you only take you laws and morals from the New Testament.You cannot possibly discount the new testament as,like you have said,Gods word is infallible and Jesus is God.

    It's all well and good to follow the rules of Christ it really is.The man ,if he existed,was a great person but the Old Testament still has such a huge part to play in anyone interpretation of the New Testament that you have to agree that al ot of the Bible is what we would consider immoral.

    For instance what about Abraham being willing to sacrifice Jacob,his only son(after his wife Sarah had been unable to give birth for decades) to God just to test him.

    As for loving one another as I have loved you.....God doesn't really display love for humanity in the Bible at all.Listen to this figure.People killed by God in the Bible=millions.By the Devil,the most evil,sadistic,being=2.
    If you loved everyone how God loves humanity then turning people into pillars of salt,raping foreign tribes,global floods,sending an angel of death to kill the first born of a non-believing tribe would be the norm.Very very loose comparison I know but it still stands to your point of living and following God's perfect actions.


    You bring up the New Testament which is my favorite part of the Bible.I sat down 2 year ago and decided to read it after taking a philosophy course in college.From start to finish and the New Testament does show a good,keen sense of morality throughout.If a person decides to base their morality on Jesus Christ then thats fine.But if you even think that basing your life on the rules and laws of the Old Testament makes you moral then think again.Btw if you have read the Bible you would know that the New Testament is completely different to the Old Testament.God is loving in the new and jealous,spiteful,massocistic in the Old.That is a fact.You needn't say it's bad interpretation it is widely accepted that there are very different stories and portrayals of God in the new and old testaments.

    e/g the 10 commandments.Have you ever seen a list that has such basic and intrinsic human laws ever before.It should really be the 6 commandments as 4 of them are all about fearing God,yet loving him.I don't know about you but being a slave to some mythical beings rules and yet loving him has all the symptoms of stockholm syndrome.


    I apologise for any spelling mistakes I have made while writing this as I have been eating while typing.
  4. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    You very clearly have a complete misunderstanding about the relationship of the Old Testament and its law and consequences for disobedience and what the New Testament is and represents. As well, you clearly do not understand who Christ is, His role in atonement, therefore you very likely cannot grasp what Christianity truly is.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by bdcc
    I keep popping back in here for some 'advanced discussion' on green coffee bean lol.
    Are you learning as much as me!? Lol
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    You very clearly have a complete misunderstanding about the relationship of the Old Testament and its law and consequences for disobedience and what the New Testament is and represents. As well, you clearly do not understand who Christ is, His role in atonement, therefore you very likely cannot grasp what Christianity truly is.
    I don't understand why your saying this.Tell me why I'm misunderstanding Christianity having been brought up in a very christian society,attended an extremist Christian school,having a very Christian family and having lost my faith due to actually reading the bible.

    How many times have you read the Bible?As I have clearly shown that I understand completely what the Old Testament laws compared to the New Testament entail.

    I understand Christ,I have even said that I admire him if he was a real person having read the Bible twice.Not an easy feat.Please educate me on the Old Testament and Christ via your understanding.Bear in mind your understanding,if it strays from what is directly said in the Bible is not a Christian view.Proceed.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    I don't understand why your saying this.Tell me why I'm misunderstanding Christianity having been brought up in a very christian society,attended an extremist Christian school,having a very Christian family and having lost my faith due to actually reading the bible.
    .
    u are misunderstanding his philosophy of christianity. he apparently thinks his interpretation of the bible is the correct one

    this is how wars start
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  8. Screw the coffee bean discussion. LOL. This thread is killer. Nothing like a respectful exhange between some brilliant minds.
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  9. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    u are misunderstanding his philosophy of christianity. he apparently thinks his interpretation of the bible is the correct one

    this is how wars start
    Then you have to take into account the translation and what was lost. My girlfriend is Greek, Talking to some of their bible scholars, the ones that speak and read the language(read it anyway ancient Greek does differ from modern Greek) there is a lot lost in the translation for instance, in the bible where it says we are to be a "servant" of God, the Greek original does not say servant at all, it says "slave", there are very distinct words for both and the word that was originally used means "slave" The Greek bible scholar stated to me that they are so distinctly different that the translator would have had to intentionally made the decision to use one over the other. That is why using our current version/versions as the absolute word of God is a very dangerous thing. There is literally soooo much lost in translation. Also per said scholar there are some words in Greek that are nearly impossible to translate into English and much is loss in the nuances
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    u are misunderstanding his philosophy of christianity. he apparently thinks his interpretation of the bible is the correct one

    this is how wars start
    actually I was trying to get him to admit that it was his philosophy. I was eventually going to come to your point man.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    Then you have to take into account the translation and what was lost. My girlfriend is Greek, Talking to some of their bible scholars, the ones that speak and read the language(read it anyway ancient Greek does differ from modern Greek) there is a lot lost in the translation for instance, in the bible where it says we are to be a "servant" of God, the Greek original does not say servant at all, it says "slave", there are very distinct words for both and the word that was originally used means "slave" The Greek bible scholar stated to me that they are so distinctly different that the translator would have had to intentionally made the decision to use one over the other. That is why using our current version/versions as the absolute word of God is a very dangerous thing. There is literally soooo much lost in translation. Also per said scholar there are some words in Greek that are nearly impossible to translate into English and much is loss in the nuances

    u know about the trick where u have 20 people and u start a rumor and then by the time it gets back to the first guy its completely changed? well imagine doing that trick over 2000 years with millions and millions of people
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    actually I was trying to get him to admit that it was his philosophy. I was eventually going to come to your point man.

    sorry if i blew it for u
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  13. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

    u know about the trick where u have 20 people and u start a rumor and then by the time it gets back to the first guy its completely changed? well imagine doing that trick over 2000 years with millions and millions of people
    A version of the telephone game.

    What I never understood was the whole sentiment behind judeo-Christian faith. There is so much evidence to show mistranslations and "borrowing" that little is original.

  14. In terms of the "telephone game," this is a completely plausible theory for why many stories from the Bible appear as myths from other cultures of the region and time period. This would not be uncommon for nomadic travelers to speak of creation and hero myths as they stop along their journey. For just one brief example, look at the epic of Gilgamesh for an example of a divine birth via a virgin as well as a world-encompassing flood.

  15. Sup AE: Why would you immediately adopt a unilateral position against only the Judeo-Christian view and not assign the same global critique across the board for all religions passed down for thousands of years. Interesting isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    What I never understood was the whole sentiment behind judeo-Christian faith. There is so much evidence to show mistranslations and "borrowing" that little is original.
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  16. Currently reading a book called "God's Secretaries" about King James' commission to translate the Bible. Very interesting to note the political implications the translators had to be aware of when deciding what "form" a word or phrase should have been when finalized. I guess people either believe the Bible is the direct word of God or it is a mutable, protean work that changes and adapts as the years go by and cultures change. Either choice has profound implications which I don't think I need to lay out.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by sidoious
    In terms of the "telephone game," this is a completely plausible theory for why many stories from the Bible appear as myths from other cultures of the region and time period. This would not be uncommon for nomadic travelers to speak of creation and hero myths as they stop along their journey. For just one brief example, look at the epic of Gilgamesh for an example of a divine birth via a virgin as well as a world-encompassing flood.
    Read "history began in Sumer" by Kramer. It goes through Sumerian stories that predate the bible by millennia, yet there are many of the same stories. That does not even cover the Egyptian correlations, specifically with the 10 commandments.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked
    Sup AE: Why would you immediately adopt a unilateral position against only the Judeo-Christian view and not assign the same global critique across the board for all religions passed down for thousands of years. Interesting isn't it?
    Hey my friend, good to see you again

    My commentary was only based on this thread.. There are many "uncanny" similarities between many early religions,but the "zealot" like behavior is truly resigned to the more modern systems.

  19. Sup buddy. Thanks for the clarification.

    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Hey my friend, good to see you again

    My commentary was only based on this thread.. There are many "uncanny" similarities between many early religions,but the "zealot" like behavior is truly resigned to the more modern systems.
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  20. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    u are misunderstanding his philosophy of christianity. he apparently thinks his interpretation of the bible is the correct one

    this is how wars start
    Please! You misunderstand quite a lot.

    Most take it out of context with very limited if any fundamental knowledge and have no idea what they are talking about. Advance science and math require an understanding of the fundamentals. Without them you are lost and entirely out of your element.

    Sadly most don't like to hear about a God that is angry with their disobedience and His retribution. Man, in his infinite intelligence, has decide the character traits of a god or the God should possess.

    Doesn't work that way.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Please! You misunderstand quite a lot.

    Most take it out of context with very limited if any fundamental knowledge and have no idea what they are talking about. Advance science and math require an understanding of the fundamentals. Without them you are lost and entirely out of your element.

    Sadly most don't like to hear about a God that is angry with their disobedience and His retribution. Man, in his infinite intelligence, has decide the character traits of a god or the God should possess.

    Doesn't work that way.
    You must realise though that the Bible is the omst well known fear mongering tool to keep a society that was uneducated,immoral and out of control in check.It should have no translation to modern day western culture.

    The fundamental understanding your referring to is that God is mean,unjust and a massocistic murderer.Now would you say that its fair that people choose to logically think that if a creator loved his creations he wouldn't have those types of traits nor would he have treated his creations in such a bad way as seen in the Bible that he doesn't exist.If the supreme being who sets our morality doesn't follow his own morality it leads to the question of its existence.

    Have you read any of the late Christopher Hitchens' books or Richard Dawkins?They put a lot into context in regards to the Judeo-Christian myth.You owe it to yourself to look into it dude.It may even affirm your beliefs.
  22. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    The fundamental understanding your referring to is that God is mean,unjust and a massocistic murderer.Now would you say that its fair that people choose to logically think that if a creator loved his creations he wouldn't have those types of traits nor would he have treated his creations in such a bad way as seen in the Bible that he doesn't exist.If the supreme being who sets our morality doesn't follow his own morality it leads to the question of its existence.
    No, the fundamental understand that I am referring to is that at the end of your days of breath man knows nothing about a/the greater purpose of this life (or not), the after life, God, the universe and or anything else beyond your very very limited mortal comprehension. We have no clue, via evidence or not, yet you presume to know better than a god or the God about what a creator's character trait should be in regards to morality, justice, love, hate, anger, jealousy, judgement, fear, punishment, and retribution. You are the object of the or a creator not the other way around.

    What puts us, our science, our philosophy or any other capacity that we may claim to possess or understand in the position to pass judgement on the or a creator of the universe? Seriously. Who is man to make this self assertion and assessment of anything?

    This is where man has got to take a moment and think about how very little they know and check themselves. What we don't know should move us to humility rather than assertions of our puny intellects.

    I am finding that in this discussion I am slanting more towards being anti-arrogant-man than even a pro-creator or pro-God. Get over yourselves for a moment. You know **** and all its glory.

  23. BOTH of these world-reknown Atheists have admitted the possibility for a Creator when they are cornered about what (WHO) started everything (of course they don't label it with any Christian context at all).

    I've watched all the debates between Frank Turek (Christian Apologetic) and these two and IMO, he schools them every time as they cannot deny the potential existence of a Creator.

    So, similarly, you owe it to yourself to watch these debates OBJECTIVELY.

    PS: You science guys would enjoy these debates as "religion" as taken completely out of the mix. They argue on the merits of science, and logical assumptions (thsi is where they separate as they hang their hats on differently). Bunch of braniac science guys debating THEIR respective positions uber-intelligently. I can't recall the last time I heard ANYTHING related to Jesus, religion, etc. I say this b/c Im sure it annoys the Atheists. Fascinating to watch IMO as it's all based on LOGIC and "psuedo-proof"

    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Have you read any of the late Christopher Hitchens' books or Richard Dawkins?They put a lot into context in regards to the Judeo-Christian myth.You owe it to yourself to look into it dude.It may even affirm your beliefs.
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  24. Richard Dawkins flat out admits you cannot disprove the existence of God here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bxiu...feature=relmfu

    He then even admits that at the end of the day, there is a 50% chance A GOD exists (a "Designer" as he puts it)
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  25. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Screw the coffee bean discussion. LOL. This thread is killer. Nothing like a respectful exhange between some brilliant minds.
    I completely agree. It is so freaking rare to discuss something like religion with this many people and not have it become some kind of mud slinging **** fest where the discussion becomes basically "you're wrong." It's been very fun reading and participating in this, especially with the people who feel very different than me.
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  26. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    BOTH of these world-reknown Atheists have admitted the possibility for a Creator when they are cornered about what (WHO) started everything (of course they don't label it with any Christian context at all).
    Yet I don't see this as a negative. Most of the reason I'm agnostic is because I basically think what the hell do I know about the origins of the Earth and man? An atheist or agnostic admitting that a creator may exist doesn't mean one does or strengthen the case that one does. I don't see this flexibility as feathers in the cap for the creator side. After all part of the reason many "pro-creators" believe they are completely right if the repercussions they believe exists if they don't fully believe.

    Pascal's Wager type stuff, I've always wondered how many people would believe if we were told heaven and hell do not exist. I know when I was younger I almost believed solely on the basis of this and I'd imagine it's the same for tons of people (though not necessarily anyone in this thread).
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  27. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Richard Dawkins flat out admits you cannot disprove the existence of God here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bxiu...feature=relmfu

    He then even admits that at the end of the day, there is a 50% chance A GOD exists (a "Designer" as he puts it)
    where did I say they didn't?

    In Dawkins' God delusion he has a scale of 1-7 on atheism and he considers himself a 6.Meaning he is 99% sure there is not a God through the evidence or lack of for one but he cannot disprove it so therefore he must have some skepticism.

    50% chance.Nope him nor Hitchens were or are not 50%.That statistic cannot be backed up with evidence.

  28. Therein lies the vast differences in the world. I think Pascal's Wager is a radically simplistc yet effective paradigm. Science has not proven Atheism or Creationism. So, based on the consequences of the "If God does exist part", it's a very a compelling argument to spend eternity in Heaven verses Hell. On its face, it certainly requires one to make a sort of quantum leap of faith but for us Christians, it beats spending eternity in Hell. It's certainly NOT the way God intended for people to

    Can anyone really deny that this person named Jesus does not demand explanation? Even for a non-believer, this guy Jesus put the entire world on it's head and literally changed time, history and the entire world. Again, this does not prove anthing, but to simply dismiss this guy Jesus as a charlaton would be remiss.

    Conversely, to admit this Jesus guy was a great guy and a wonderful leader or person; well, keep in mind He claimed to be GOD. Does this still make Him a good guy? Either He was insane and therefore NOT GOd, or very sane and with that is an acceptance of what He also claimed to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    Pascal's Wager type stuff).
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  29. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    BOTH of these world-reknown Atheists have admitted the possibility for a Creator when they are cornered about what (WHO) started everything (of course they don't label it with any Christian context at all).

    I've watched all the debates between Frank Turek (Christian Apologetic) and these two and IMO, he schools them every time as they cannot deny the potential existence of a Creator.

    So, similarly, you owe it to yourself to watch these debates OBJECTIVELY.

    PS: You science guys would enjoy these debates as "religion" as taken completely out of the mix. They argue on the merits of science, and logical assumptions (thsi is where they separate as they hang their hats on differently). Bunch of braniac science guys debating THEIR respective positions uber-intelligently. I can't recall the last time I heard ANYTHING related to Jesus, religion, etc. I say this b/c Im sure it annoys the Atheists. Fascinating to watch IMO as it's all based on LOGIC and "psuedo-proof"
    That one with Hitchens is indeed very interesting.Dude I have studied theism in depth and have come to my conclusions via the atheist route.I gave theism a very good chance.I actually wrote an essay in my first year of college when I did a philosophy module for the existence of God.But through study and experiences I have come to the conclusion that the lack of evidence leads me to find it illogical to believe in a magic man who controls everything.

    That doesn't mean I can't respect people who believe,it means that due to my extreme view I will never bring this up in conversations unless prompted due to my views that people,like yourself,find offensive due to them being different.
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