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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    u are misunderstanding his philosophy of christianity. he apparently thinks his interpretation of the bible is the correct one

    this is how wars start
    Please! You misunderstand quite a lot.

    Most take it out of context with very limited if any fundamental knowledge and have no idea what they are talking about. Advance science and math require an understanding of the fundamentals. Without them you are lost and entirely out of your element.

    Sadly most don't like to hear about a God that is angry with their disobedience and His retribution. Man, in his infinite intelligence, has decide the character traits of a god or the God should possess.

    Doesn't work that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Please! You misunderstand quite a lot.

    Most take it out of context with very limited if any fundamental knowledge and have no idea what they are talking about. Advance science and math require an understanding of the fundamentals. Without them you are lost and entirely out of your element.

    Sadly most don't like to hear about a God that is angry with their disobedience and His retribution. Man, in his infinite intelligence, has decide the character traits of a god or the God should possess.

    Doesn't work that way.
    You must realise though that the Bible is the omst well known fear mongering tool to keep a society that was uneducated,immoral and out of control in check.It should have no translation to modern day western culture.

    The fundamental understanding your referring to is that God is mean,unjust and a massocistic murderer.Now would you say that its fair that people choose to logically think that if a creator loved his creations he wouldn't have those types of traits nor would he have treated his creations in such a bad way as seen in the Bible that he doesn't exist.If the supreme being who sets our morality doesn't follow his own morality it leads to the question of its existence.

    Have you read any of the late Christopher Hitchens' books or Richard Dawkins?They put a lot into context in regards to the Judeo-Christian myth.You owe it to yourself to look into it dude.It may even affirm your beliefs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    The fundamental understanding your referring to is that God is mean,unjust and a massocistic murderer.Now would you say that its fair that people choose to logically think that if a creator loved his creations he wouldn't have those types of traits nor would he have treated his creations in such a bad way as seen in the Bible that he doesn't exist.If the supreme being who sets our morality doesn't follow his own morality it leads to the question of its existence.
    No, the fundamental understand that I am referring to is that at the end of your days of breath man knows nothing about a/the greater purpose of this life (or not), the after life, God, the universe and or anything else beyond your very very limited mortal comprehension. We have no clue, via evidence or not, yet you presume to know better than a god or the God about what a creator's character trait should be in regards to morality, justice, love, hate, anger, jealousy, judgement, fear, punishment, and retribution. You are the object of the or a creator not the other way around.

    What puts us, our science, our philosophy or any other capacity that we may claim to possess or understand in the position to pass judgement on the or a creator of the universe? Seriously. Who is man to make this self assertion and assessment of anything?

    This is where man has got to take a moment and think about how very little they know and check themselves. What we don't know should move us to humility rather than assertions of our puny intellects.

    I am finding that in this discussion I am slanting more towards being anti-arrogant-man than even a pro-creator or pro-God. Get over yourselves for a moment. You know **** and all its glory.
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    BOTH of these world-reknown Atheists have admitted the possibility for a Creator when they are cornered about what (WHO) started everything (of course they don't label it with any Christian context at all).

    I've watched all the debates between Frank Turek (Christian Apologetic) and these two and IMO, he schools them every time as they cannot deny the potential existence of a Creator.

    So, similarly, you owe it to yourself to watch these debates OBJECTIVELY.

    PS: You science guys would enjoy these debates as "religion" as taken completely out of the mix. They argue on the merits of science, and logical assumptions (thsi is where they separate as they hang their hats on differently). Bunch of braniac science guys debating THEIR respective positions uber-intelligently. I can't recall the last time I heard ANYTHING related to Jesus, religion, etc. I say this b/c Im sure it annoys the Atheists. Fascinating to watch IMO as it's all based on LOGIC and "psuedo-proof"

    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Have you read any of the late Christopher Hitchens' books or Richard Dawkins?They put a lot into context in regards to the Judeo-Christian myth.You owe it to yourself to look into it dude.It may even affirm your beliefs.
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    Richard Dawkins flat out admits you cannot disprove the existence of God here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bxiu...feature=relmfu

    He then even admits that at the end of the day, there is a 50% chance A GOD exists (a "Designer" as he puts it)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Screw the coffee bean discussion. LOL. This thread is killer. Nothing like a respectful exhange between some brilliant minds.
    I completely agree. It is so freaking rare to discuss something like religion with this many people and not have it become some kind of mud slinging **** fest where the discussion becomes basically "you're wrong." It's been very fun reading and participating in this, especially with the people who feel very different than me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    BOTH of these world-reknown Atheists have admitted the possibility for a Creator when they are cornered about what (WHO) started everything (of course they don't label it with any Christian context at all).
    Yet I don't see this as a negative. Most of the reason I'm agnostic is because I basically think what the hell do I know about the origins of the Earth and man? An atheist or agnostic admitting that a creator may exist doesn't mean one does or strengthen the case that one does. I don't see this flexibility as feathers in the cap for the creator side. After all part of the reason many "pro-creators" believe they are completely right if the repercussions they believe exists if they don't fully believe.

    Pascal's Wager type stuff, I've always wondered how many people would believe if we were told heaven and hell do not exist. I know when I was younger I almost believed solely on the basis of this and I'd imagine it's the same for tons of people (though not necessarily anyone in this thread).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Richard Dawkins flat out admits you cannot disprove the existence of God here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bxiu...feature=relmfu

    He then even admits that at the end of the day, there is a 50% chance A GOD exists (a "Designer" as he puts it)
    where did I say they didn't?

    In Dawkins' God delusion he has a scale of 1-7 on atheism and he considers himself a 6.Meaning he is 99% sure there is not a God through the evidence or lack of for one but he cannot disprove it so therefore he must have some skepticism.

    50% chance.Nope him nor Hitchens were or are not 50%.That statistic cannot be backed up with evidence.
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    Therein lies the vast differences in the world. I think Pascal's Wager is a radically simplistc yet effective paradigm. Science has not proven Atheism or Creationism. So, based on the consequences of the "If God does exist part", it's a very a compelling argument to spend eternity in Heaven verses Hell. On its face, it certainly requires one to make a sort of quantum leap of faith but for us Christians, it beats spending eternity in Hell. It's certainly NOT the way God intended for people to

    Can anyone really deny that this person named Jesus does not demand explanation? Even for a non-believer, this guy Jesus put the entire world on it's head and literally changed time, history and the entire world. Again, this does not prove anthing, but to simply dismiss this guy Jesus as a charlaton would be remiss.

    Conversely, to admit this Jesus guy was a great guy and a wonderful leader or person; well, keep in mind He claimed to be GOD. Does this still make Him a good guy? Either He was insane and therefore NOT GOd, or very sane and with that is an acceptance of what He also claimed to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    Pascal's Wager type stuff).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    BOTH of these world-reknown Atheists have admitted the possibility for a Creator when they are cornered about what (WHO) started everything (of course they don't label it with any Christian context at all).

    I've watched all the debates between Frank Turek (Christian Apologetic) and these two and IMO, he schools them every time as they cannot deny the potential existence of a Creator.

    So, similarly, you owe it to yourself to watch these debates OBJECTIVELY.

    PS: You science guys would enjoy these debates as "religion" as taken completely out of the mix. They argue on the merits of science, and logical assumptions (thsi is where they separate as they hang their hats on differently). Bunch of braniac science guys debating THEIR respective positions uber-intelligently. I can't recall the last time I heard ANYTHING related to Jesus, religion, etc. I say this b/c Im sure it annoys the Atheists. Fascinating to watch IMO as it's all based on LOGIC and "psuedo-proof"
    That one with Hitchens is indeed very interesting.Dude I have studied theism in depth and have come to my conclusions via the atheist route.I gave theism a very good chance.I actually wrote an essay in my first year of college when I did a philosophy module for the existence of God.But through study and experiences I have come to the conclusion that the lack of evidence leads me to find it illogical to believe in a magic man who controls everything.

    That doesn't mean I can't respect people who believe,it means that due to my extreme view I will never bring this up in conversations unless prompted due to my views that people,like yourself,find offensive due to them being different.
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    Might wanna re-watch the You Tube clip

    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    50% chance.Nope him nor Hitchens were or are not 50%.That statistic cannot be backed up with evidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Therein lies the vast differences in the world. I think Pascal's Wager is a radically simplistc yet effective paradigm. Science has not proven Atheism or Creationism. So, based on the consequences of the "If God does exist part", it's a very a compelling argument to spend eternity in Heaven verses Hell. On its face, it certainly requires one to make a sort of quantum leap of faith but for us Christians, it beats spending eternity in Hell. It's certainly NOT the way God intended for people to
    Isn't part of the issue with Pascal's Wager basically that if God is all knowing he would know if I'm only believing in him to save my ass? I.E. I "believe" in God, but not sincerely because I'm just believing in him because I accept heaven/hell?

    I don't really believe in Hell whether or not God exists, but to each their own.

    As for the percentages I'm curious on what the percentages are for a specific religion being correct? After all thousands exist, getting the right one in theory should be very poor odds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Therein lies the vast differences in the world. I think Pascal's Wager is a radically simplistc yet effective paradigm. Science has not proven Atheism or Creationism. So, based on the consequences of the "If God does exist part", it's a very a compelling argument to spend eternity in Heaven verses Hell. On its face, it certainly requires one to make a sort of quantum leap of faith but for us Christians, it beats spending eternity in Hell. It's certainly NOT the way God intended for people to

    Can anyone really deny that this person named Jesus does not demand explanation? Even for a non-believer, this guy Jesus put the entire world on it's head and literally changed time, history and the entire world. Again, this does not prove anthing, but to simply dismiss this guy Jesus as a charlaton would be remiss.

    Conversely, to admit this Jesus guy was a great guy and a wonderful leader or person; well, keep in mind He claimed to be GOD. Does this still make Him a good guy? Either He was insane and therefore NOT GOd, or very sane and with that is an acceptance of what He also claimed to be.
    Well Science has proved that the creationist view that the earth is 6000 years old(lol) is wrong.Geography and carbon dating are hard to lie about.

    What we cannot prove is that a creator didn't create the world,universe ect......But you cannot prove he did so therin lies the most controversial part between an atheistic vs a theistic debate.If you literally and pardon the pun cannot agree in any way from the beginning of the arguement then it is going nowhere.

    Jesus if he existed was extraordinary in that he made a lot of people beleive he was supernatural.Now as to if he was we cannot prove he was.He may have been mad but if he inspires morality then why the heck not thats fine by me.What I have a bone of contention with is Christians who say they follow Jesus yet they are intolerant or go completely against the mans morals.

    FOr instance the American military is very Christian.If you believe that God is on your side then your not really a Christian.The may used no violent methods to prove his points,he inspired by peace.Martin Luther King actively loved his enemies therefore he can call himself a man of Christ.Heck Gandhi was so Chrsitian he was Hindu!

    I have to ask when you say God didn't plan for people to go to hell and that believing because the notion of heaven compared to going to hell is nicer is a cop out.Thats an insurance method for not trying to research and really look into the subject.

    Also why is it the Judaeo-Christian God you believe in?Did you decide that this was the best God to worship,that it was the true God or was it an accident of Geography that you worship him?I believe it is the latter.If you were bron in 100AD in Rome you would be worshipping Jupiter,in 800AD in Sweden -Thor or in India the great God Brahman and his many faces(Gods).

    Can you see why the whole concept of this God is the real one is so loose?
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    I respect that. At least you didnt dismiss God "just because".

    That said, I always find it a shame though; especially when intelligent people try to explain away God through lack of scientific proof as that speaks to man's ego and narrow-mindedness (no personal disrespect intended) in that attempting to comprehend the depths of the universe with only the tools we have to date seems so illogical and "science-less"; given the fact that such conclusions were based on man's finite intelligence. Given the vast scope of the universe and things yet to be discovered and learned, it seems almost overly dignified or hyper-egotistical to make that conclusion immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    That one with Hitchens is indeed very interesting.Dude I have studied theism in depth and have come to my conclusions via the atheist route.I gave theism a very good chance.I actually wrote an essay in my first year of college when I did a philosophy module for the existence of God.But through study and experiences I have come to the conclusion that the lack of evidence leads me to find it illogical to believe in a magic man who controls everything.

    That doesn't mean I can't respect people who believe,it means that due to my extreme view I will never bring this up in conversations unless prompted due to my views that people,like yourself,find offensive due to them being different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    No, the fundamental understand that I am referring to is that at the end of your days of breath man knows nothing about a/the greater purpose of this life (or not), the after life, God, the universe and or anything else beyond your very very limited mortal comprehension. We have no clue, via evidence or not, yet you presume to know better than a god or the God about what a creator's character trait should be in regards to morality, justice, love, hate, anger, jealousy, judgement, fear, punishment, and retribution. You are the object of the or a creator not the other way around.

    What puts us, our science, our philosophy or any other capacity that we may claim to possess or understand in the position to pass judgement on the or a creator of the universe? Seriously. Who is man to make this self assertion and assessment of anything?

    This is where man has got to take a moment and think about how very little they know and check themselves. What we don't know should move us to humility rather than assertions of our puny intellects.

    I am finding that in this discussion I am slanting more towards being anti-arrogant-man than even a pro-creator or pro-God. Get over yourselves for a moment. You know **** and all its glory.

    I agree that I know nothing about the universe.Neither do you or anyone in its greatest depths.I don't claim to know your God's morality I do know it.It is in the Bible-his word according to you guys.Next point

    The creator may not be cognitive therefore it may not have morality.You cannot discount the fact but you have come to the conclusion to worship one deity amongst the 2000 odd deities on earth that man has ever worshipped.Maybe your God is a force of physics that has just created out of nothing but when you understand that the reason you don't believe in Allah(or I guess you do seeing as he is the same God) or Brahman or Thor or Anubis you'll understand why I don't believe in your God.

    You never know.

    Getting nowhere in this arguement are we but it's fun nonetheless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Might wanna re-watch the You Tube clip
    he says we don't want to jump to 50/50 as there is a larger probability depending on opinion that lies between 0-100.In the context he states that it lies solely on someones stance.

    YOu may want to watch it again or maybe you didn't understand his meaning.

    I love that interview by the way.Great,logical debate with a lot of respect for the others stance.I respect both of these men but my stance is more opinionated due to personal experiences.Just like yours.

    Disclaimer:I respect everyone opinions in here ,especially the people who are intellectually jousting with me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    I respect that. At least you didnt dismiss God "just because".

    That said, I always find it a shame though; especially when intelligent people try to explain away God through lack of scientific proof as that speaks to man's ego and narrow-mindedness (no personal disrespect intended) in that attempting to comprehend the depths of the universe with only the tools we have to date seems so illogical and "science-less"; given the fact that such conclusions were based on man's finite intelligence. Given the vast scope of the universe and things yet to be discovered and learned, it seems almost overly dignified or hyper-egotistical to make that conclusion immediately.
    No offense taken man.

    But if we look back at history people though that the tides went in due to God making them,the world was apparently falt.Yet we can prove this now and can therefore say it's not God doing it it's x,y,z ect......

    It was illogical to try and prove that the world was not flat or that the earth was not the centre of the universe because it challenges religious belief.Yet it has been challenged and proven to not be God(though I cannot prove that he /she/it if it exists did not intend this use).

    If there is a God he'll say ''Ronan you used the free will and morality I gave you to live a good life.You helped people because you wanted to.Welcome to heaven.''

    If this God knows me he will know exactly why I came to tis conclusion that he didn't exist and he will accept it as he has given me the choice.If I live according to morals that benefit the world then how can a being send me to hell for not believing.If he made me skeptical then why would he punish me.If a being exists that personally creates each and every one of us and makes some of us skeptical then why would he punish me?If it does this then God's a sadist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney

    but when you understand that the reason you don't believe in Allah(or I guess you do seeing as he is the same God) or Brahman or Thor or Anubis you'll understand why I don't believe in your God.

    .
    This sums up a lot IMO. Why do theists here choose the god they do? Amun, Osiris, Zeus, etc..... All predate the judeochristian god. So what makes you choose that one?
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    Hang on fellas, Im eating dinner and praying for Phil or DavidDunn to return b/c I feel like a skinny white kid with a suit on and $25,000 in cash walking into the Cripps territory LOLOLOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    This sums up a lot IMO. Why do theists here choose the god they do? Amun, Osiris, Zeus, etc..... All predate the judeochristian god. So what makes you choose that one?
    FWIW:

    "Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

    "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

    "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me..."

    Out of curiosity what sort of personal intimacy/relationship does one encounter when one is engaged with a god like Brahman, Thor, Amun, Osiris, Zeus...etc. How is it good for or to ones soul to worship these gods?

    Here is what the Christian God has to offer:

    "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

    "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

    “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

    "I am the way, and the truth, and the life..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    FWIW:

    "Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

    "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

    "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me..."

    Out of curiosity what sort of personal intimacy/relationship does one encounter when one is engaged with a god like Brahman, Thor, Amun, Osiris, Zeus...etc. How is it good for or to ones soul to worship these gods?

    Here is what the Christian God has to offer:

    "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

    "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

    “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

    "I am the way, and the truth, and the life..."
    now let us know what the other Gods have to offer so we can understand why the Christian God is the one for you.

    I take it you have at least researched the other major faiths of our day?What their creed,sacred texts entail ect...In fact I'm just 50 pages into the Ebnglish translation of the Qur'an.Funny as hell this thing
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn

    FWIW:

    "Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

    "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

    "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me..."

    Out of curiosity what sort of personal intimacy/relationship does one encounter when one is engaged with a god like Brahman, Thor, Amun, Osiris, Zeus...etc. How is it good for or to ones soul to worship these gods?

    Here is what the Christian God has to offer:

    "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

    "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

    "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

    "I am the way, and the truth, and the life..."
    For many of these gods...much of the desire of their followers was protection in the after life. Which is eerily similar to a later series of belief systems.

    I am curious D, if you have looked at the origins of many of the judeo-Christian stories.
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    Ahhh thank God. DD is back

    I'm not a good debator at all LOL and I get too emotionally attached to the posts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Hang on fellas, Im eating dinner and praying for Phil or DavidDunn to return b/c I feel like a skinny white kid with a suit on and $25,000 in cash walking into the Cripps territory LOLOLOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    For many of these gods...much of the desire of their followers was protection in the after life. Which is eerily similar to a later series of belief systems.

    I am curious D, if you have looked at the origins of many of the judeo-Christian stories.
    I am not very much of a literary. I know of enough to know and recognize that many Christian biblical stories transcend many faiths and cultures.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Ahhh thank God. DD is back

    I'm not a good debator at all LOL and I get too emotionally attached to the posts.
    You flatter me. I am hardly the sharpest tool in the shed.
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    Neh, you're a smart dude but more importantly, you articulate your points well. As does Phil. My Atheist buddy AE does the same as I've seen them go round and round. Quite impressive.

    The problem with threads like this is not only that no one ever wins per se but that the more talented debator is simply able to articulate his point/perspective better potentially leading to false conclusions by the viewers.

    Ordinarilly, I wouldnt care but given the significance of the topic, it frustrates me not being adept at presenting facts/points in a lucid manner.


    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    You flatter me. I am hardly the sharpest tool in the shed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    This is where man has got to take a moment and think about how very little they know and check themselves. What we don't know should move us to humility rather than assertions of our puny intellects.
    This is the issue at hand. Believing in a God has nothing to do with science. It's the ability to acknowledge the possibility that something out there is greater than I. It's a lack of humility and all vanity to think we can comprehend all and play that role of God. Man has proven century after century that he does not know how to direct his own steps. Yet people will still go out there and vote for a new leader thinking "this time" it will be different. It is the definition of insanity. Doing the same things over and over and expecting a different outcome. Man has been trying to do it his own way since the original sin and has proved to all that he cannot govern himself. He needs help. When a person needs help he needs to push his ego aside and just ask. It really is that simple.
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    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    This is the issue at hand. Believing in a God has nothing to do with science. It's the ability to acknowledge the possibility that something out there is greater than I. It's a lack of humility and all vanity to think we can comprehend all and play that role of God.
    The complexity of the universe awes me. I dont think we will ever understand this. A good scientist understands this and it humbles him more so than any religious person gets humbled by their worshipping experience.

    Our species may never figure out everything. But everything has an explanation. Science can explain everything because that is the definition of science. The explanation for everything. The fact that you put god above science just is fundamentally non-sensical to me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    FOr instance the American military is very Christian.If you believe that God is on your side then your not really a Christian.The may used no violent methods to prove his points,he inspired by peace.Martin Luther King actively loved his enemies therefore he can call himself a man of Christ.Heck Gandhi was so Chrsitian he was Hindu!
    I like to find common ground wherever I can and I do not want to be mixed in with the ideals of mainstream christianity.

    Some of my christian friends are not gonna like this but when Jesus told murder was a sin, It didn't say in parenthesis (except when justified through war) Murder is murder. It is not our obligation to decide what is just and what is not. That is not our place. It's not our place take revenge either. God said "vengence is mine", Not ours.

    You are absolutely right.. If you think God is gonna be on your side when your stictly going against many of his laws and commandments you have been a victim of brainwash. A man proves himself a christian by his works. Not his faith alone.

    People aren't gonna like this either and probably call me un-american but a christian does not belong in the military. A christian's fight is not a physical one.

    2 Corinthians 10:3-4

    3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds"


    Matthew 26:52

    52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

    Luke 6:27- 28


    27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

    Jesus says.. love your enemies.. killing someone isn't very loving is it?


    Some historical evidence of christians in war.


    "A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.


    “They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    The complexity of the universe awes me. I dont think we will ever understand this. A good scientist understands this and it humbles him more so than any religious person gets humbled by their worshipping experience.

    Our species may never figure out everything. But everything has an explanation. Science can explain everything because that is the definition of science. The explanation for everything. The fact that you put god above science just is fundamentally non-sensical to me
    I disagree with this.. a good scientist is trying to come up with a original idea and prove "his" research is true.

    If you don't have worshiping experience how could you know how humbling it could be?

    I will tell you straight up.. Without God.. I'd be a very arrogant person. Way too overconfident. I think I can solve everything on my own. I'd be the definition of a mad scientist because when I focus on something I can get so involved in it that everything and everyone around me will just disapear. Finding God has allowed me to push my own desires aside and think bigger than myself.

    Even with God I struggle with the consequences of overconfidence and I still struggle with trying to handle too much on my own but everytime I let GOD handle something.. he never disapoints. I am the only thing getting in the way of his help.

    It is non-sensical to believe in something that is built on a fault line. What is proven as a fact in science one day is dispelled as a myth the next.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    A christian's fight is not a physical one.
    For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    I am not very much of a literary. I know of enough to know and recognize that many Christian biblical stories transcend many faiths and cultures.
    this is true. What I have always found so interesting is that many stories, as you state, were around long before the bible was written. The only difference is of course a different cast of characters.

    It is quite interesting to read ancient sumerian myths, and then jump forward 2-3K years, and have the same stories in a christian setting
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    I like to find common ground wherever I can and I do not want to be mixed in with the ideals of mainstream christianity.

    Some of my christian friends are not gonna like this but when Jesus told murder was a sin, It didn't say in parenthesis (except when justified through war) Murder is murder. It is not our obligation to decide what is just and what is not. That is not our place. It's not our place take revenge either. God said "vengence is mine", Not ours.

    You are absolutely right.. If you think God is gonna be on your side when your stictly going against many of his laws and commandments you have been a victim of brainwash. A man proves himself a christian by his works. Not his faith alone.

    People aren't gonna like this either and probably call me un-american but a christian does not belong in the military. A christian's fight is not a physical one.

    2 Corinthians 10:3-4

    3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds"


    Matthew 26:52

    52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

    Luke 6:27- 28


    27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

    Jesus says.. love your enemies.. killing someone isn't very loving is it?


    Some historical evidence of christians in war.


    "A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.


    “They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.
    Very rounded and interesting response man.Thank you for that.This is how we begin mutual respect for one antoerh,through challenging and accepting the good and bad of theism and atheism.Thanks man
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    this is true. What I have always found so interesting is that many stories, as you state, were around long before the bible was written. The only difference is of course a different cast of characters.

    It is quite interesting to read ancient sumerian myths, and then jump forward 2-3K years, and have the same stories in a christian setting
    I believe that the Egyptian myth has the God Osiris from a virgin but Oriris is truly the supreme God Ra.
    Very interesting myth.Check out Bill Mahers documentary on how the Judaeo-Christian myth was not the first of it time to come up with this story.

    Also the word for virigin is a mistranslation and should read ''young woman''.When the Bible was translated to Greek they changed this vital detail.But no matter it doesn't souind very likely anyways.If it gives you morality without judgement then I'm fine with it,if it doesn't well................


    Btw on an anabolic matter do you guys think a low dose superdrol cycle at 10/10/10/10/10/10 would be beneficial?I was thinking of doing this or bridging it in the low dose with Epistane at 0/030/30/40/40 starting in week 3.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    I believe that the Egyptian myth has the God Osiris from a virgin but Oriris is truly the supreme God Ra.
    Very interesting myth.Check out Bill Mahers documentary on how the Judaeo-Christian myth was not the first of it time to come up with this story.

    Also the word for virigin is a mistranslation and should read ''young woman''.When the Bible was translated to Greek they changed this vital detail.But no matter it doesn't souind very likely anyways.If it gives you morality without judgement then I'm fine with it,if it doesn't well................


    Btw on an anabolic matter do you guys think a low dose superdrol cycle at 10/10/10/10/10/10 would be beneficial?I was thinking of doing this or bridging it in the low dose with Epistane at 0/030/30/40/40 starting in week 3.
    the miraculous birth myth is not new, and was around for millenia prior to the Jesus story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    the miraculous birth myth is not new, and was around for millenia prior to the Jesus story.
    that is what I just said.That Christians think it's their but in fact it isn't.referenced the Egyptians man they were a good 1000 years before Jesus Christ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    that is what I just said.That Christians think it's their but in fact it isn't.referenced the Egyptians man they were a good 1000 years before Jesus Christ.
    agreed, the Egyptian myth goes back several thousand years BCE. The Egyptians refer to it as "Zep Tepi", first time. Most of the more modern religions have borrowed their traditions. Hell, it is fairly well established all of the pilfering that Constantine did with Christianity in the 4th century, as a means of unifying the people within 1 religion
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    agreed, the Egyptian myth goes back several thousand years BCE. The Egyptians refer to it as "Zep Tepi", first time. Most of the more modern religions have borrowed their traditions. Hell, it is fairly well established all of the pilfering that Constantine did with Christianity in the 4th century, as a means of unifying the people within 1 religion
    http://wheresmysammich.com/picture/1...ristian-logic/ check that out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    I disagree with this.. a good scientist is trying to come up with a original idea and prove "his" research is true.

    If you don't have worshiping experience how could you know how humbling it could be?

    I will tell you straight up.. Without God.. I'd be a very arrogant person. Way too overconfident. I think I can solve everything on my own. I'd be the definition of a mad scientist because when I focus on something I can get so involved in it that everything and everyone around me will just disapear. Finding God has allowed me to push my own desires aside and think bigger than myself.

    Even with God I struggle with the consequences of overconfidence and I still struggle with trying to handle too much on my own but everytime I let GOD handle something.. he never disapoints. I am the only thing getting in the way of his help.

    It is non-sensical to believe in something that is built on a fault line. What is proven as a fact in science one day is dispelled as a myth the next.

    u just arent listening to me. u are confusing science facts with the practice of science.

    its no more valid for me to dispel religion because of the foolish acts of religious people.

    and i dont need god to have the good values and ethics i have. i do it because it is in my heart and because i believe in the human race. if you need god then that sounds like deep down you arent a good person
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    u just arent listening to me. u are confusing science facts with the practice of science.

    its no more valid for me to dispel religion because of the foolish acts of religious people.

    and i dont need god to have the good values and ethics i have. i do it because it is in my heart and because i believe in the human race. if you need god then that sounds like deep down you arent a good person
    I will vouch for PA here. Despite his prickly online persona, in person he is a real salt of the earth kind of guy, agnostic atheist or what ever he calls himself, he is a stand up dude,
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