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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    but he did. satan invented science to sway us from believing in the simplistic moronic ways of god.
    "I give you this brain, please do not use it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    alot when these things get in the hands of religious whackos
    It doesn't take much research to find that there are plenty of scientific wackos.
    It seems a good portion of scientific evidence is susceptible to being a load of ****.
    It's men, not science or God, that have the problem.
    Either, in the hands and minds of men are suspect.
    Archaeology - Charles Dawson, Reiner Protsch von Zieten, Shinichi Fujimura

    In 1912 England, Charles Dawson had made a stunning discovery: the link between humans and primates. The so-called Piltdown man, named Eoanthropus dawsoni, was dug up by the amateur archaeologist, and had a human-sized brain compartment and ape-sized jaw. Dawson unearthed a LOT of other spectacular finds, including a previously unknown species of mammal (Plagiaulax dawsoni), three new species of dinosaur, and a new form of fossil plant, Salaginella dawsoni.

    Just 41 years later, scientists concluded it was a forgery. The human skull was just 6000 years old. And the jawbone? Orangutan. All of the fossils found at the landmark Piltdown site had been planted.

    No wonder Dawson didn't find a link - the real missing link between Neandertals and modern humans was hiding in a peat bog near Hamburg - or so said Reiner Protsch von Zieten, a German professor. Von Zieten was acclaimed for such finds as the 36,000 year old Hahnhöfersand Man, the 21,300 year old Binshof-Speyer woman, a 50 million-year-old "half-ape" called Adapis that had been found in Switzerland, and the 27,400 year old Paderborn-Sande man. His work work "appeared to prove that anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals had co-existed, and perhaps even had children together," according to the 2005 Guardian article. Oops - apparently von Zieten literally had no idea how to work the carbon dating machine. The heralded findings? H-Man: died 7,500 years ago; B-S woman (ha): died in 1300 BCE; Adapis: actually dug up in France (not sure about dates); P-S man: died in 1750.

    It's not bad enough he falsifed data and rewrote the history of anthropology. He also faked his own history - not of noble blood at all, but the son of a Nazi MP. He is tied to the shredding of documents detailing "gruesome" Nazi scientific experiments and the disappearance of heads from some of the 12,000 skeletons at the university.

    Another archaeologist, Japan's Shinichi Fujimura, can at least be excused for planting his "finds" - the devil made him do it. Or so he said when he was caught in 2000. His nickname, "God's hands," came from his uncanny ability to find prehistoric artifacts. Too bad he was caught on camera digging holes and burying objects.
    Physics - Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, Mileva Maric, Jan Hendrik Schön

    Chemists Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann stunned the world when they claimed in 1989 to have successfully created cold fusion (at room temperature). But scientists, excited to replicate the experiment and contribute to the new revolution in energy production, couldn't do it. The two were called a lot of names, including fraudulent, sloppy, and unethical. They were also exonerated by some (even the NY Times), instead placing the blame on the University of Utah and the media. The jury is still out on these guys.

    Students of the history of science, physicists, and conspiracy theorists probably recognize Mileva Maric's name: Serbian mathematician, physics scholar, and, oh yes, first wife of Einstein. Unlike the other members of this article, people contend that she was the victim of scientific fraud. By whom? None other than Einstein. A controversial theory posits that Maric contributed to the Annus Mirabilis papers, including theories on Brownian motion and the theory of relativity. These papers changed views on space, time and matter, so you'd think she'd want her name on the byline. The current consensus seems to be that she was an assistant and sounding board, but who really knows?

    Jan Hendrik Schön did the unthinkable in 2000 - he made molecules that don't ordinarily conduct electricity into semiconductors. He and his colleagues had "conducted electricity where it had never gone before." He went into publishing mode and a mere five years after grad school was a contender for the Nobel. But a group from Bell Labs, where he worked, placed a call to a Princeton physics professor and hinted that things weren't as they seemed. Two years later, Schön had denied wrongdoing, junior professors were nervous that their tenure bids tied to trying to replicate the experiment were in jeopardy, and the U.S. Department of Energy had spend millions in funding for further research.
    Biology and Medicine - Friedhelm Herrmann and Marion Brach, Watson and Crick and Wilkins, Hwang Woo-Suk, Kazunari Taira

    Hindsight is 20/20. People suspect Friedhelm Herrmann and Marion Brach, former collaborators and lovers, began falsifying data back in 1988. The molecular biologists headed a big research group in Berlin (after working in the U.S.) and co-authored dozens of papers. One in particular showed Brach's work on tumor necrosis factor affecting cancer cells.

    After the two broke up and went their separate ways, students came forward saying they had been threatened by the pair to keep quiet about fraudulent data. Almost 100 papers were found to have falsified or made-up data. Naturally they each blamed the other; Herrmann sued the dean of Medicine at Ulm for $10 million Deutsche marks, saying he knew nothing of the fake data in the papers he co-authored. Brach said Herrmann had pressed her to cheat. In 2002, two years after a task force had published its findings on the scandal, 14 of 20 journals that responded to an inquiry hadn't retracted any of the fradulent papers.

    Watson and Crick and Maurice Wilkins received the Nobel for their work on nucleic acid (and are more famously known for the DNA double helix), but the honor was only partly theirs. Allegedly Wilkins didn't like his King's College colleague Rosalind Franklin, who was creating the world's best X-ray diffraction pictures of DNA. Watson said Wilkins showed him an unpublished picture of Franklin's - and the rest is history.

    Hwang Woo-Suk is a big dog in the fraud world - the Korean was world-famous in 2004 and 2005 for creating human embryonic stem cells via cloning. His success meant that patients could receive custom-made treatment without immune reactions. His team was also the first to successfully clone a dog (Snuppy the puppy). But the glory didn't last for long. In late 2005 concerns started to surface about his data. On May 12, 2006, Hwang was indicted on embezzlement and and bioethics law violations linked to faked stem cell research. He denies wrongdoing, of course. (But the cloned dog was actually real.)

    In 2003 Kazunari Taira, who had used a lot of public money to research RNA interference in anticancer drugs, published a paper saying he had succeeded in having E. coil bacteria produce the human enzyme Dicer. But no one else could reproduce the experiments, so complaints started flooding the Japan RNA Society. They asked Tokyo University to look into the matter, but announced 10 months later it could not make a case against the researcher because there wasn't enough evidence. Literally - no data had been left behind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    It doesn't take much research to find that there are plenty of scientific wackos.
    It seems a good portion of scientific evidence is susceptible to being a load of ****.
    It's men, not science or God, that have the problem.
    Either, in the hands and minds of men are suspect.
    i dont know of any wars or serious terrorist acts that were carried out because of disagreements on science matters. yes scientist often disagree and the fights can be nasty but rarely do they result in the slaughter of thousands and thousands like the countless religious wars of the past
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i dont know of any wars or serious terrorist acts that were carried out because of disagreements on science matters. yes scientist often disagree and the fights can be nasty but rarely do they result in the slaughter of thousands and thousands like the countless religious wars of the past
    Agreed to a point.

    Just as people of faith believe the truth of the bible (it's stories), people of science believe the truth of science (it's stories), where in fact both may very well contain great lies because of man's agendas.

    Science is not void of fantastic extrapolation that are equally flawed when examined more closely.

    My point is that at times both the scientist and the religious have had agendas that have misguided the masses and their motives and actions and they have both done so for centuries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    if there is a god then science is the language of god. i have a spiritual side of me but i do not think that spiritual side is seperate in any way from science. it upsets me to hear people talk about science vs. god. and it upsets me when people associate science with atheism.

    my whole argument is with the dogma of organized religion. because that is anti-science. and therefore anti-god
    I like that. "the language of God". I'am a man of science also and my thought is. man calls these discoveries science but what does God call them?

    Man, I didn't think we'd agree on anything here but I also believe that spirituality and science do not have to be separate. I believe they can co-exist and I have no conflicitions between having knowledge of both. When the bible touches on "scientific" issues there are no condraditions.

    I also believe that science should not be related to atheism. This upsets me both as a man of science and as a man of God. Science does not support atheism because science does not close the door to a creator.

    Again I agree. Organized man made religion is anti-god. I believe God told men in the OT and through Christ in the NT the way to live. A lifestyle.. not a religion.

    I think what we have here is disproval of religion and all the problems it has caused but I wish people would be able to separate God and religion just as they should separate athiesm with science. Don't let the works of men keep you away from knowing God.

    My signature isn't disrespecting science. It's just asking what can you offer me better than everlasting life? It has not come up with a good answer yet. All science tells me is that I'am basically born to the grave. I won't accept that.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    if there is a god then science is the language of god. i have a spiritual side of me but i do not think that spiritual side is seperate in any way from science. it upsets me to hear people talk about science vs. god. and it upsets me when people associate science with atheism.

    my whole argument is with the dogma of organized religion. because that is anti-science. and therefore anti-god
    I like that. "the language of God". I'am a man of science also and my thought is. man calls these discoveries science but what does God call them?

    Man, I didn't think we'd agree on anything here but I also believe that spirituality and science do not have to be separate. I believe they can co-exist and I have no conflicitions between having knowledge of both. When the bible touches on "scientific" issues there are no condraditions.

    I also believe that science should not be related to atheism. This upsets me both as a man of science and as a man of God. Science does not support atheism because science does not close the door to a creator.

    Again I agree. Organized man made religion is anti-god. I believe God told men in the OT and through Christ in the NT the way to live. A lifestyle.. not a religion.

    I think what we have here is disproval of religion and all the problems it has caused but I wish people would be able to separate God and religion just as they should separate athiesm with science. Don't let the works of men keep you away from knowing God.

    My signature isn't disrespecting science. It's just asking what can you offer me better than everlasting life? It has not come up with a good answer.
    Nice dialog here IMHO
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Agreed to a point.

    Just as people of faith believe the truth of the bible (it's stories), people of science believe the truth of science (it's stories), where in fact both may very well contain great lies because of man's agendas.

    Science is not void of fantastic extrapolation that are equally flawed when examined more closely.

    My point is that at times both the scientist and the religious have had agendas that have misguided the masses and their motives and actions and they have both done so for centuries.
    sorry but what you are saying is fundamentally flawed

    science is infallible by definition. yes, men misinterpret science all the time. but science itself refers to objective fundamental laws of nature that cannot be disputed

    religions are always disputed because they cannot be distilled into objective undeniable facts. they are based upon faith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    My signature isn't disrespecting science. It's just asking what can you offer me better than everlasting life? It has not come up with a good answer yet. All science tells me is that I'am basically born to the grave. I won't accept that.
    no, i dont believe that. science has not come to a conclusion on what happens after you die. In fact, some of these new fangled theories on multiple universes and dimensions leave the door open to possible explanations for existence beyond the physical world we are familiar with
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    You call the bibles answers and solutions pathetic while you offer no other answers for me.
    Tell me why we die?
    Well everything dies due to your body aging,immune system becoming more succeptible to disease,innate mutation,failure to control mitosis resulting in cancer.It's natural to die.It's unnatural.I shouldn't need to explain that.
    Tell me what happens to us after we die?
    We decompose in the soil and aid the nitrogen cycle and thats it.Why do you think you'll live forever?Thats quite an arrogant standpoint isn't it?Why should you have the same privelages as an omnipotent being(immortality).
    Tell me what is our true purpose on the earth?
    It's a fluke of evolution.Why do you think we have a purpose?What's a virus or bacteria's purpose if not to make us suffer.Is that a grand design?We're just another species trying to survive.That is it.

    Tell me what is the path to true happiness and contentment?
    Happiness and Contentment.Each person finds their own path but if entails pledging worship to a make believe man in the sky who was his own son and sacrificed himself to himself then I question that path.Why do you think the universe owes you happiness and contentment?It owes you nothing.
    Can you answer these kinds of questions for me? Your more likely to try to tell me why my beliefs are pathetic than answer these questions.
    I answered you questions so so much for your theory.

    The problem with the modern day man is that he's so complicated. There has to be this big/complex explanation for everything and if it's not complex it's not intelligent or logical.
    so therefore God yes?That is pathetic

    Can you answer this truthfully? Your disproval of religion holds no partiality on your belief in a God?
    The human condition does not need a God.It really offers us nothing that a secular society can't.Morality,Laws,Ethics are basic principles understood by everyone.You don't need a 2000 year old book to tell you that.There may be a God i cannot prove theres not but via evidence it has all of the symptoms all the other myths out there.
    Tell me why do you not believe in Thor or Apollo or Loki.Surely their claim as a deity is legitimate if your God's claim is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    sorry but what you are saying is fundamentally flawed

    science is infallible by definition. yes, men misinterpret science all the time. but science itself refers to objective fundamental laws of nature that cannot be disputed

    religions are always disputed because they cannot be distilled into objective undeniable facts. they are based upon faith
    Maybe I am miscommunicating my point.

    I believe both are infallible but are limited to man's abilities of comprehension and dissemination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Morality,Laws,Ethics are basic principles understood by everyone.
    On what planet are you referring to?
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Maybe I am miscommunicating my point.

    I believe both are infallible but are limited to man's abilities of comprehension and dissemination.
    so you are saying that the christian holy bible is infallible?
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn
    Nice dialog here IMHO
    I agree with this as well. As a christian myself I can sympathize with someone who does not consider referencing the bible as a means of support for religion. At least not until the bible can be validated in their eyes. Relaying scientific facts with text from scripture is a reasonable way to validate the bible, at least partially.

    It is important to note that faith is necessary. There are some things that we just won't be able to confirm (who created God). But if we can validate enough things to make Faith reasonable...

    I think you see where I'm going here, hopefully?

    A few interesting points here, taken from the web:

    Scientific Facts in the Bible

    1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

    2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.

    3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth's free float in space: "He...hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).

    4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).

    5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: "Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?" (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement--that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn't discover this until 1864 when "British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing" (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).

    6. Job 38:19 asks, "Where is the way where light dwells?" Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a "way," traveling at 186,000 miles per second.

    7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..."

    8. "Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth" (Time, Dec. 1976).

    9. Solomon described a "cycle" of air currents two thousand years before scientists "discovered" them. "The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits" (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

    10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.

    11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body's mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled," and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."

    12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15-24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called "behemoth." Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo's tail isn't like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, "He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.

    13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under "running water."

    14. Luke 17:34-36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.

    15. "During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to 'bad air' or 'evil spirits.' However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: 'The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation' (A History of Medicine)." Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world's religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, "Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence." (11:3 continued)
    Romans 8:38-39

    Save sorrow for the souls in doubt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    so you are saying that the christian holy bible is infallible?
    God is infallible. He and His truth are infallible IMO but the dissemination of it through the Bible has it's faults as they are done through the limited faculties of man. I am Christian and yet my intellect does does indeed at time see faults in the word presented in the bible (as translated in today modern language). I don't fault the message but rather the messenger as he is limited in comprehension and dissemination.

    The spirit of the word over the letter of the word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    On what planet are you referring to?
    Bring someone up in a secular society and compare it to a non-secular society.

    Compare Sweden and Spain.Who's country is more stable,runs more efficiently?The Catholic or Atheist dominated country.

    Check the video out that I linked in this thread.It makes some great points.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    The human condition does not need a God.It really offers us nothing that a secular society can't.Morality,Laws,Ethics are basic principles understood by everyone.You don't need a 2000 year old book to tell you that.There may be a God i cannot prove theres not but via evidence it has all of the symptoms all the other myths out there.
    Tell me why do you not believe in Thor or Apollo or Loki.Surely their claim as a deity is legitimate if your God's claim is?
    I love how your answers are so upbuilding and hopeful. You prove my point. I know the science of why we die, obviously you don't understand what I'am looking for.

    I don't believe in man made God's.

    You never answered my last question?

    This truly is very laughable.

    "Morality,Laws,Ethics are basic principles understood by everyone"

    Like DUNN said.. what planet do you live on.. is it called earth?
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    no, i dont believe that. science has not come to a conclusion on what happens after you die. In fact, some of these new fangled theories on multiple universes and dimensions leave the door open to possible explanations for existence beyond the physical world we are familiar with
    The lack of a answer is it's answer. I like that your more open minded than it originally seemed. This is what I ment about thinking outside of yourself. Sorry if it sounded confusing. I do have much interest in the universe and other universes but my belief is that God will explain these things to us in his new world. The bible speaks of new scrolls being opened up.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    God is infallible. He and His truth are infallible IMO but the dissemination of it through the Bible has it's faults as they are done through the limited faculties of man. I am Christian and yet my intellect does does indeed at time see faults in the word presented in the bible (as translated in today modern language). I don't fault the message but rather the messenger as he is limited in comprehension and dissemination.

    The spirit of the word over the letter of the word.
    So saying that stoning is ok is just some preachers wrong interpretation that its bad.If the Bible is Gods word and you have actually read the book then you would not say that some of the Bible is down to interpretation.It's God's word right.You don't interpret anything it is infallible right.

    That's a problem I have with Christians(not referencing you man) but if you rely on 2 thousand year old book ,which has different morals and laws than we consider right today then how are you going to further your condition to its fullest.

    You get what I mean?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    So saying that stoning is ok is just some preachers wrong interpretation that its bad.If the Bible is Gods word and you have actually read the book then you would not say that some of the Bible is down to interpretation.It's God's word right.You don't interpret anything it is infallible right.

    That's a problem I have with Christians(not referencing you man) but if you rely on 2 thousand year old book ,which has different morals and laws than we consider right today then how are you going to further your condition to its fullest.

    You get what I mean?
    Translation and interpretation are not the same. I don't take some preachers word for anything. I open my Bible and do my own research. I reference it in context with historical, social, cultural and translational considerations. It's not about interpretation it is about discernment. It is not about the letter of the word it is about the spirit of the word.

    Read your New Testament. Jesus spoke of a new covenant that has nothing to do with codes, laws, morals or anything that Sadducees and Pharisees prescribed to of the Old Testament. The New Testament of Christ does not contain different morals and laws.

    "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you."
    "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."
    "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us."


    The new covenant is spoken about first in the book of Jeremiah. The old covenant that God had established with His people required obedience to the Old Testament Mosaic law. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), the law required that people perform rituals and sacrifices in order to please God and remain in His grace. The prophet Jeremiah predicted that there would be a time when God would make a new covenant with the nation of Israel.

    "'The day will come,' says the Lord, 'when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. . . . But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,' says the Lord. 'I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people'" (Jeremiah 31:31, 33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and create a new covenant between God and His people. The old covenant was written in stone, but the new covenant is written on our hearts, made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His own blood to atone for the sins of the world. Luke 22:20 says, "After supper, [Jesus] took another cup of wine and said, 'This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you – an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you.'"

    Now that we are under the new covenant, we are not under the penalty of the law. We are now given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the life-giving Holy Spirit who lives in all believers (Romans 8:9-11), we can now share in the inheritance of Christ and enjoy a permanent, unbroken relationship with God. Hebrews 9:15 declares, “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”
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    I have tried so hard to stay out of this thread...as many here know, when the topic is religion I typically run right in.

    The issue I have is not necessarily of a supreme being, but the fact that organized religion has destroyed so much and become so corrupt, that what people worship today is nothing like what the origins seem to be. To me personally, anyone using the OT, NT or any other text at this point is foolish. All you are really doing is worshiping pagan stories/myths with unfounded extra characters thrown in.

    Bear in mind, imo, the christian ideals (although taken extensively from earlier Buddhist traditions) on how to live and treat each other are great, and SHOULD be followed. The problem is that human beings have distorted the message for their own greed and selfishness, and at the present, the meaning is truly gone.

    In terms of a supreme being, I like to think if there is one, our founding deist fathers were correct. It is an impersonal god. It is the great architect of the universes and then left us alone. If that is not the case.....then that supreme being is not only a god, but the ultimate illustration of evil as well. Specifically for creating a horribly flawed creature, and leaving us to torture each other, all the while knowing that we were going to do it. That is the definition of evil
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natestreo View Post
    I agree with this as well. As a christian myself I can sympathize with someone who does not consider referencing the bible as a means of support for religion. At least not until the bible can be validated in their eyes. Relaying scientific facts with text from scripture is a reasonable way to validate the bible, at least partially.

    It is important to note that faith is necessary. There are some things that we just won't be able to confirm (who created God). But if we can validate enough things to make Faith reasonable...

    I think you see where I'm going here, hopefully?

    A few interesting points here, taken from the web:

    Scientific Facts in the Bible

    1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

    2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.

    3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth's free float in space: "He...hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).

    4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).

    5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: "Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?" (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement--that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn't discover this until 1864 when "British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing" (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).

    6. Job 38:19 asks, "Where is the way where light dwells?" Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a "way," traveling at 186,000 miles per second.

    7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..."

    8. "Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth" (Time, Dec. 1976).

    9. Solomon described a "cycle" of air currents two thousand years before scientists "discovered" them. "The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits" (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

    10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.

    11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body's mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled," and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."

    12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15-24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called "behemoth." Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo's tail isn't like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, "He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.

    13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under "running water."

    14. Luke 17:34-36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.

    15. "During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to 'bad air' or 'evil spirits.' However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: 'The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation' (A History of Medicine)." Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world's religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, "Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence." (11:3 continued)
    I have to tell you...some of this is downright wrong.

    The idea that the earth was round was well known to the greeks, the egyptians, and the romans. This is illustrated in their artwork, as well as their writings. The information got lost during the "dark ages" when guess who was in control........the Catholic church.

    Also, it is fairly well established that Columbus knew (as did many other explorers) about the new world. It was not new, as there were maps at the time that illustrated this "new world". Columbus and religion are quite a touchy subject, especially when looking at what his faith is purported as being.

    Alot of the other quotes you use are looking for very loose interpretations....which you and wherever you sourced this most certainly provide. "the stars sang" equals radio waves? That is square peg being fit in a circular hole

    I dont think we want to use leviticus as a source of anything imo....otherwise my daughter better be careful as I am allowed to sell her into slavery per leviticus

    I dont mean to come off harsh at all...my point is (and it seems yours to an extent) there needs to be a great deal of pure blind faith when dealing with this, and for many of us (myself included) that is not possible.
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    I keep popping back in here for some 'advanced discussion' on green coffee bean lol.
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    @David Dunn .

    I agree with your point about the new testament yet you cannot tell me that you only take you laws and morals from the New Testament.You cannot possibly discount the new testament as,like you have said,Gods word is infallible and Jesus is God.

    It's all well and good to follow the rules of Christ it really is.The man ,if he existed,was a great person but the Old Testament still has such a huge part to play in anyone interpretation of the New Testament that you have to agree that al ot of the Bible is what we would consider immoral.

    For instance what about Abraham being willing to sacrifice Jacob,his only son(after his wife Sarah had been unable to give birth for decades) to God just to test him.

    As for loving one another as I have loved you.....God doesn't really display love for humanity in the Bible at all.Listen to this figure.People killed by God in the Bible=millions.By the Devil,the most evil,sadistic,being=2.
    If you loved everyone how God loves humanity then turning people into pillars of salt,raping foreign tribes,global floods,sending an angel of death to kill the first born of a non-believing tribe would be the norm.Very very loose comparison I know but it still stands to your point of living and following God's perfect actions.


    You bring up the New Testament which is my favorite part of the Bible.I sat down 2 year ago and decided to read it after taking a philosophy course in college.From start to finish and the New Testament does show a good,keen sense of morality throughout.If a person decides to base their morality on Jesus Christ then thats fine.But if you even think that basing your life on the rules and laws of the Old Testament makes you moral then think again.Btw if you have read the Bible you would know that the New Testament is completely different to the Old Testament.God is loving in the new and jealous,spiteful,massocistic in the Old.That is a fact.You needn't say it's bad interpretation it is widely accepted that there are very different stories and portrayals of God in the new and old testaments.

    e/g the 10 commandments.Have you ever seen a list that has such basic and intrinsic human laws ever before.It should really be the 6 commandments as 4 of them are all about fearing God,yet loving him.I don't know about you but being a slave to some mythical beings rules and yet loving him has all the symptoms of stockholm syndrome.


    I apologise for any spelling mistakes I have made while writing this as I have been eating while typing.
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    You very clearly have a complete misunderstanding about the relationship of the Old Testament and its law and consequences for disobedience and what the New Testament is and represents. As well, you clearly do not understand who Christ is, His role in atonement, therefore you very likely cannot grasp what Christianity truly is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc
    I keep popping back in here for some 'advanced discussion' on green coffee bean lol.
    Are you learning as much as me!? Lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    You very clearly have a complete misunderstanding about the relationship of the Old Testament and its law and consequences for disobedience and what the New Testament is and represents. As well, you clearly do not understand who Christ is, His role in atonement, therefore you very likely cannot grasp what Christianity truly is.
    I don't understand why your saying this.Tell me why I'm misunderstanding Christianity having been brought up in a very christian society,attended an extremist Christian school,having a very Christian family and having lost my faith due to actually reading the bible.

    How many times have you read the Bible?As I have clearly shown that I understand completely what the Old Testament laws compared to the New Testament entail.

    I understand Christ,I have even said that I admire him if he was a real person having read the Bible twice.Not an easy feat.Please educate me on the Old Testament and Christ via your understanding.Bear in mind your understanding,if it strays from what is directly said in the Bible is not a Christian view.Proceed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    I don't understand why your saying this.Tell me why I'm misunderstanding Christianity having been brought up in a very christian society,attended an extremist Christian school,having a very Christian family and having lost my faith due to actually reading the bible.
    .
    u are misunderstanding his philosophy of christianity. he apparently thinks his interpretation of the bible is the correct one

    this is how wars start
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    Screw the coffee bean discussion. LOL. This thread is killer. Nothing like a respectful exhange between some brilliant minds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    u are misunderstanding his philosophy of christianity. he apparently thinks his interpretation of the bible is the correct one

    this is how wars start
    Then you have to take into account the translation and what was lost. My girlfriend is Greek, Talking to some of their bible scholars, the ones that speak and read the language(read it anyway ancient Greek does differ from modern Greek) there is a lot lost in the translation for instance, in the bible where it says we are to be a "servant" of God, the Greek original does not say servant at all, it says "slave", there are very distinct words for both and the word that was originally used means "slave" The Greek bible scholar stated to me that they are so distinctly different that the translator would have had to intentionally made the decision to use one over the other. That is why using our current version/versions as the absolute word of God is a very dangerous thing. There is literally soooo much lost in translation. Also per said scholar there are some words in Greek that are nearly impossible to translate into English and much is loss in the nuances
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    u are misunderstanding his philosophy of christianity. he apparently thinks his interpretation of the bible is the correct one

    this is how wars start
    actually I was trying to get him to admit that it was his philosophy. I was eventually going to come to your point man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    Then you have to take into account the translation and what was lost. My girlfriend is Greek, Talking to some of their bible scholars, the ones that speak and read the language(read it anyway ancient Greek does differ from modern Greek) there is a lot lost in the translation for instance, in the bible where it says we are to be a "servant" of God, the Greek original does not say servant at all, it says "slave", there are very distinct words for both and the word that was originally used means "slave" The Greek bible scholar stated to me that they are so distinctly different that the translator would have had to intentionally made the decision to use one over the other. That is why using our current version/versions as the absolute word of God is a very dangerous thing. There is literally soooo much lost in translation. Also per said scholar there are some words in Greek that are nearly impossible to translate into English and much is loss in the nuances

    u know about the trick where u have 20 people and u start a rumor and then by the time it gets back to the first guy its completely changed? well imagine doing that trick over 2000 years with millions and millions of people
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    actually I was trying to get him to admit that it was his philosophy. I was eventually going to come to your point man.

    sorry if i blew it for u
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

    u know about the trick where u have 20 people and u start a rumor and then by the time it gets back to the first guy its completely changed? well imagine doing that trick over 2000 years with millions and millions of people
    A version of the telephone game.

    What I never understood was the whole sentiment behind judeo-Christian faith. There is so much evidence to show mistranslations and "borrowing" that little is original.
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    In terms of the "telephone game," this is a completely plausible theory for why many stories from the Bible appear as myths from other cultures of the region and time period. This would not be uncommon for nomadic travelers to speak of creation and hero myths as they stop along their journey. For just one brief example, look at the epic of Gilgamesh for an example of a divine birth via a virgin as well as a world-encompassing flood.
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    Sup AE: Why would you immediately adopt a unilateral position against only the Judeo-Christian view and not assign the same global critique across the board for all religions passed down for thousands of years. Interesting isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    What I never understood was the whole sentiment behind judeo-Christian faith. There is so much evidence to show mistranslations and "borrowing" that little is original.
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    Currently reading a book called "God's Secretaries" about King James' commission to translate the Bible. Very interesting to note the political implications the translators had to be aware of when deciding what "form" a word or phrase should have been when finalized. I guess people either believe the Bible is the direct word of God or it is a mutable, protean work that changes and adapts as the years go by and cultures change. Either choice has profound implications which I don't think I need to lay out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sidoious
    In terms of the "telephone game," this is a completely plausible theory for why many stories from the Bible appear as myths from other cultures of the region and time period. This would not be uncommon for nomadic travelers to speak of creation and hero myths as they stop along their journey. For just one brief example, look at the epic of Gilgamesh for an example of a divine birth via a virgin as well as a world-encompassing flood.
    Read "history began in Sumer" by Kramer. It goes through Sumerian stories that predate the bible by millennia, yet there are many of the same stories. That does not even cover the Egyptian correlations, specifically with the 10 commandments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked
    Sup AE: Why would you immediately adopt a unilateral position against only the Judeo-Christian view and not assign the same global critique across the board for all religions passed down for thousands of years. Interesting isn't it?
    Hey my friend, good to see you again

    My commentary was only based on this thread.. There are many "uncanny" similarities between many early religions,but the "zealot" like behavior is truly resigned to the more modern systems.
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    Sup buddy. Thanks for the clarification.

    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Hey my friend, good to see you again

    My commentary was only based on this thread.. There are many "uncanny" similarities between many early religions,but the "zealot" like behavior is truly resigned to the more modern systems.
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