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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    there is no debate.

    to debate requires rational thinking and there is nothing rational about faith
    Lol, couldn't agree more. See my posts in general chat on the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    there is no debate.

    to debate requires rational thinking and there is nothing rational about faith
    ^, a true scientist.
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    When you can prove that life began without a Creator, hit me up. Otherwise, you have the exact same same faith we Christians do; only with a diametrically opposed view.

    Objectively: An Aestheist's version of creation ("faith" in some spontaneous BOOM) is just as "irrational" to a Christian as my faith in a Creator is to you.

    PS: I'll still need you to priovide "scientific evidence" of what caused the boom too lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    there is no debate.

    to debate requires rational thinking and there is nothing rational about faith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    When you can prove that life began without a Creator, hit me up. Otherwise, you have the exact same same faith we Christians do; only with a diametrically opposed view.

    Objectively: An Aestheist's version of creation ("faith" in some spontaneous BOOM) is just as "irrational" to a Christian as my faith in a Creator is to you.

    PS: I'll still need you to priovide "scientific evidence" of what caused the boom too lol
    Prove life began with a creator. And don't use words in a book as evidence as I can quickly write down words in a book as well. Prove a higher power exists using reason not based on words out of a book. Because many other faiths have words from different books, so you'll need to prove yours is correct.

    And while we're at it help me understand why someone would give people the ability to think rationally, not provide any rational proof for his existence, and then torture those people for eternity he supposedly loves because they can't get their head around him existing because he gave them reason. Also why does he need so much of my money? And like your signature why do you need to be so fearful of this guy anyways? You really want to worship someone based on fear? Sounds like terrorism to me.

    Damn I said I wasn't going to get in another damn religious debate
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    Same here LOL

    To answer your question, we could go round and round. I've seen it (and been part of it) on many threads on this board. The end result is always the same. We Christians have faith in our Creator. You Aetheists have faith in your theories for the commencement of life. At the end of the day, neither can prove either conviction to the other party. Faith is faith, no matter the subject. Hence my comment to Pat

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    Damn I said I wasn't going to get in another damn religious debate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    When you can prove that life began without a Creator, hit me up. Otherwise, you have the exact same same faith we Christians do; only with a diametrically opposed view.

    Objectively: An Aestheist's version of creation ("faith" in some spontaneous BOOM) is just as "irrational" to a Christian as my faith in a Creator is to you.

    PS: I'll still need you to priovide "scientific evidence" of what caused the boom too lol
    ok buddy

    who created your creator?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    ok buddy

    who created your creator?
    I've been stuck on that one for a while lol
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    physics actually has some explanation on how matter can spontaneously arise from a vacuum

    and its alot more sophisticated than a man with a grey beard deciding to make the universe in a week
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    . You Aetheists have faith in your theories for the commencement of life. At the end of the day, neither can prove either conviction to the other party. Faith is faith, no matter the subject. Hence my comment to Pat


    i disagree. I dont believe in anything that is not supported by evidence. I dont fill in the gaps with faith. I just admit I dont know.

    I suppose if there is anything I have "faith" in it is that if man can develop the intellectual capacity to do so he will be able to explain the entire universe using science and reason

    Unfortunately our brains our limited by our physiology so I dont think our species will ever get to that point
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i disagree. I dont believe in anything that is not supported by evidence. I dont fill in the gaps with faith. I just admit I dont know.

    I suppose if there is anything I have "faith" in it is that if man can develop the intellectual capacity to do so he will be able to explain the entire universe using science and reason

    Unfortunately our brains our limited by our physiology so I dont think our species will ever get to that point
    I admit I do not know as well. I look at it like this. Does a rat know how a plane works? Maybe this is something we will just never understand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    I admit I do not know as well. I look at it like this. Does a rat know how a plane works? Maybe this is something we will just never understand.

    i read something which suggested that we are already pretty much at the limit of our brain power due to constraints on size of brain versus efficiency and speed of neuronal signalling. If our brains get too big then signals take too long to travel and you lose brain power. and you can only jam so much neurons into a brain.

    computers can help us with the number crunching and stuff so that helps, but it could be that some concepts are too complex for one brain to handle
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    Well then, you just supported my argument because the very existence of the universe (well, any of the atheistic scientific versions) are just theories; and as a result, not supported by evidence. From your perspective, as a facts-based Atheist, science still needs to provide hard evidence in opposition to a Creator. That day has not come. As a result, how can you be an Atheist based on just theory?
    If anything, Agnostic might fit your position better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i disagree. I dont believe in anything that is not supported by evidence.
    Cool. Well, who created matter and who created vaccuums?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    physics actually has some explanation on how matter can spontaneously arise from a vacuum
    That neither supports your theory of no Creator or mine of a Creator. You already conveyed that our brains are approaching the very limits of ability. Who's to say these computers you referenced which complete the data we as humans cannot extrapolate will not support the existence of a Creator. Isn't that a bit presumptuous? Isn't all of this (both sides) purely speculative and as a result, and by your defintion, "not supported by evidence" not a valid position to be presumptuous about and hence, impossible to take ANY position on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    and its alot more sophisticated than a man with a grey beard deciding to make the universe in a week
    He's got a beard? If you've seen Him, shouldn't that make you a believer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    and its alot more sophisticated than a man with a grey beard deciding to make the universe in a week
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Well then, you just supported my argument because the very existence of the universe (well, any of the atheistic scientific versions) are just theories; and as a result, not supported by evidence.
    scientific theories are supported by evidence. There are many theories for the origin of the universe and the nature of the universe. None are wholly accepted but they are supported by tons of sophisticated evidence

    religion is not a theory because it does not rely upon empirical evidence. it relies on blind belief in a bunch of contradictory and non-sensical ancient ramblings. To try to put the bible on the same playing ground as sciences such as cosmology and quantum physics is ludicrous

    Sorry, dont mean to sound mean
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post

    Cool. Well, who created matter and who created vaccuums?



    That neither supports your theory of no Creator or mine of a Creator. You already conveyed that our brains are approaching the very limits of ability. Who's to say these computers you referenced which complete the data we as humans cannot extrapolate will not support the existence of a Creator. Isn't that a bit presumptuous? Isn't all of this (both sides) purely speculative and as a result, and by your defintion, "not supported by evidence" not a valid position to be presumptuous about and hence, impossible to take ANY position on?


    To be honest I dont refute or support the existence of a creator. Whatever ones definition of a "creator" is. If there ends up being an explanation for a creator in science than so be it. It hasnt come up though so i see no need to invent one to make myself feel comfy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Same here LOL

    To answer your question, we could go round and round. I've seen it (and been part of it) on many threads on this board. The end result is always the same. We Christians have faith in our Creator. You Aetheists have faith in your theories for the commencement of life. At the end of the day, neither can prove either conviction to the other party. Faith is faith, no matter the subject. Hence my comment to Pat
    Actually I don't have any faith in anything and I wouldn't consider myself an atheist but an agnostic. I have no clue if a creator exists or not, though admittedly I lean towards the not. I don't actively believe in the existence of heaven or hell really. Honestly if a God exists that is all good I don't think a hell does exist. Any God that would allow people to be tortured for all eternity isn't one I want to worship anyways. I have no idea what the right answer is nor will I ever attempt to say I do.
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    Pat, don't get weak on me now, your dry ball-breaking hilarious sarcasm married with hardcore, black and white, genuine say it like it is attitude is why I respect you. A rare thing for me on this board as many sell out so easily. Now apologize for being trying to be respectful. It's so unbecoming of you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    Sorry, dont mean to sound mean
    Back OT please............
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    Geo: If that's you in the avatar, I'm gonna mind my P's and Q's for my own safety. If not, I'm about to own ur azz. LOL (j/k!)

    On a serious note, I can appreciate yours and the perspective Pat just relayed as well. It's the convicted Atheists adamant that there is no God that get to me. Like, how can you be so sure, where is the proof? Many of these cats aren't like the Pat Arnold's of the world so science is NOT what they are even hanging their hats on! It's more like a misplaced, pure disdain for the very thought a "GOD". Let me explain...

    Look, I've met many of these types and the vast majority base their views on supercharged anger and/or having a run of bad luck/life occurrences and they need a scapegoat. They are bitter and vengeful. By denouncing God, they feel they are getting even or something LOL

    Christians have the luxury of faith (an unbeliever cannot comprehend so let's leave this here) and a die hard Atheist has the burden of indisputable definitive proof in finality terms. Well, there is none.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    Actually I don't have any faith in anything and I wouldn't consider myself an atheist but an agnostic. I have no clue if a creator exists or not, though admittedly I lean towards the not. I don't actively believe in the existence of heaven or hell really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Geo: If that's you in the avatar, I'm gonna mind my P's and Q's for my own safety. If not, I'm about to own ur azz. LOL (j/k!)

    On a serious note, I can appreciate yours and the perspective Pat just relayed as well. It's the convicted Atheists adamant that there is no God that get to me. Like, how can you be so sure, where is the proof? Many of these cats aren't like the Pat Arnold's of the world so science is NOT what they are even hanging their hats on! It's more like a misplaced, pure disdain for the very thought a "GOD". Let me explain...

    Look, I've met many of these types and the vast majority base their views on supercharged anger and/or having a run of bad luck/life occurrences and they need a scapegoat. They are bitter and vengeful. By denouncing God, they feel they are getting even or something LOL

    Christians have the luxury of faith (an unbeliever cannot comprehend so let's leave this here) and a die hard Atheist has the burden of indisputable definitive proof in finality terms. Well, there is none.
    You cant prove a negative.

    Asking someone to prove that god doesnt exist is like asking someone to prove that spiderman isnt the love child of sonic the hedgehog and one of the power puff girls.

    The burden of proof doesnt fall on the atheists but on the religious ones making the existence of god claims. The burden always lies on those who are making the claims. Problem is there is no proof. It all is about having blind faith, which is why you cant really have a debate about his existence or not. Its either or believe or dont.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    What can be asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Geo: If that's you in the avatar, I'm gonna mind my P's and Q's for my own safety. If not, I'm about to own ur azz. LOL (j/k!)

    On a serious note, I can appreciate yours and the perspective Pat just relayed as well. It's the convicted Atheists adamant that there is no God that get to me. Like, how can you be so sure, where is the proof? Many of these cats aren't like the Pat Arnold's of the world so science is NOT what they are even hanging their hats on! It's more like a misplaced, pure disdain for the very thought a "GOD". Let me explain...

    Look, I've met many of these types and the vast majority base their views on supercharged anger and/or having a run of bad luck/life occurrences and they need a scapegoat. They are bitter and vengeful. By denouncing God, they feel they are getting even or something LOL

    Christians have the luxury of faith (an unbeliever cannot comprehend so let's leave this here) and a die hard Atheist has the burden of indisputable definitive proof in finality terms. Well, there is none.
    I am very scientifically minded but I look at it this way, when science creates life I'll lend the atheists my ear, until then... I am a doubting Thomas(my middle name) I want proof either way. right now in my opinion you cannot disprove an intelligent design in the universe. I am in good company here are a few quotes from a well respected man of science
    Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in point of fact, religious.
    Albert Einstein
    Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the "old one." I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice.
    Albert Einstein

    And to qualify what he meant lest I be accused of misrepresenting his concept of God and religion

    I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.
    Albert Einstein
    "I can understand your aversion to the use of the term 'religion' to describe an emotional and psychological attitude which shows itself most clearly in Spinoza... I have not found a better expression than 'religious' for the trust in the rational nature of reality that is, at least to a certain extent, accessible to human reason."
    And as Forest Gump would say "That's all I have to say about that"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Geo: If that's you in the avatar, I'm gonna mind my P's and Q's for my own safety. If not, I'm about to own ur azz. LOL (j/k!)
    That's definitely not me, it's from the upcoming Batman movie (I figure people are allowed to be geeks on one things and I'm a Batman geek).

    Also I don't wear masks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    That's definitely not me, it's from the upcoming Batman movie (I figure people are allowed to be geeks on one things and I'm a Batman geek).

    Also I don't wear masks
    Marvel > DC


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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    scientific theories are supported by evidence. There are many theories for the origin of the universe and the nature of the universe. None are wholly accepted but they are supported by tons of sophisticated evidence

    religion is not a theory because it does not rely upon empirical evidence. it relies on blind belief in a bunch of contradictory and non-sensical ancient ramblings. To try to put the bible on the same playing ground as sciences such as cosmology and quantum physics is ludicrous

    Sorry, dont mean to sound mean
    One of my favorite quotes from a professor at my university is the following: "Yes, evolution is a theory, just like gravity."
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Marvel > DC


    That's a bit of an understatement MARVEL>​dc
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    Got it. So, the burden of proof just as easily falls on the Atheists to prove theor claims through scientific fact that spontaneous activity of spontaneous previously non-existing matter erupted from nowhere for some unknown reason with zero proof and evolved into something


    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    The burden always lies on those who are making the claims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Marvel > DC


    Don't disagree, but keep this in mind:

    Batman>than all other superheros.

    Non negotiable.
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    As far as trying to explain faith to an Atheist, this is what I tell my Atheist buds....

    I can't and never will be able to prove that Chocolate is delicious.

    Once you try it though, you will understand.

    For me, it is a FACT that chocolate is yummy; despite this lacking "scientific" fact.

    Where's my proof? In my heart and soul. I get happy and all my problems go away when I am eating chocolate.

    Can a scientist prove chocolate is delish? Nope.

    Does that mean it's not? Nope

    Is chocolate for everyone? Nope. But for the vast majority of us, it's pure undeniable bliss.

    Sounds ridiculously elementary (and it is), but it keeps it simple and seems to help them understand and we always get a good laugh out of the pathetic analogy.

    I thought I'd add a little levity to this thread since these threads never ever end well.

    PS: Geo: What's with the mask? LMAO
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    If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms.

    And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e., Materialism and Astronomy - are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It's like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset. -CS Lewis


    Someone once said that if you sat a million monkeys at a million typewriters for a million years, one of them would eventually type out all of Hamlet by chance. But when we find the text of Hamlet, we don't wonder whether it came from chance and monkeys. Why then does the atheist use that incredibly improbable explanation for the universe? Clearly, because it is his only chance of remaining an atheist. At this point we need a psychological explanation of the atheist rather than a logical explanation of the universe. -Peter Kreeft

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    scientific theories are supported by evidence. There are many theories for the origin of the universe and the nature of the universe. None are wholly accepted but they are supported by tons of sophisticated evidence

    religion is not a theory because it does not rely upon empirical evidence. it relies on blind belief in a bunch of contradictory and non-sensical ancient ramblings. To try to put the bible on the same playing ground as sciences such as cosmology and quantum physics is ludicrous
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    Wow this is new to me.
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    I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use. -Galileo
    The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman. -Unknown

    Humanism or atheism is a wonderful philosophy of life as long as you are big, strong, and between the ages of eighteen and thirty-five. But watch out if you are in a lifeboat and there are others who are younger, bigger, or smarter. -William Murray





    Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    One of my favorite quotes from a professor at my university is the following: "Yes, evolution is a theory, just like gravity."
    Quote Originally Posted by sidoious View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Got it. So, the burden of proof just as easily falls on the Atheists to prove theor claims through scientific fact that spontaneous activity of spontaneous previously non-existing matter erupted from nowhere for some unknown reason with zero proof and evolved into something
    Nope

    Saying that god doesnt exist is a response to the claim being made that he does. The claim is being made by the religious ones. The statement by atheist is a response to said claim hence why the burden of proof falls on the religious ones as they are the ones making the claim of his existence

    As far as creation vs evolution or creation vs big bang. As Pat already pointed out earlier, there is evidence in favor of both of these. These claims are not made out of thin air, but you are right, if one claims the universe started with a big bang then they have the burden of proof, but again there is evidence out there for this to be a possibility (but that discussion is beyond the scope of this thread and quite frankly my understanding) Is it an indisputable fact? No as there really arent any "facts" in science, only theories. But this is why science is great as it is forever growing, evolving, changing and being challenged. It revolves around the hunger to have a better understanding of things. Rarely are things ever accepted which results in there always being someone testing someone else's theory/work where religion remains stagnate. You accept whatever is presented to you via some book or religious leader and dont question it and will just believe it. Your problem is your comparing theory to blind faith when the two are not the same. Science is based on theories and evidence where as religion is based purely on blind faith. You really cant compare the two and thats why these science vs religion threads are usually pointless to get involved with.

    NOTE: I am not taking sides and by any means am not discrediting your faith or belittling your beliefs. This is not my intention. Also, I will not not participate any further into this religion v science discussion. I have learned a long time ago it is a pointless venture. I typically stay out of any thread that is about religion or politics. was only commenting on your post saying they had the burden to prove god doesnt exist. You cant prove a negative so it falls on the religious ones to prove his existence.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    So...did God make green coffee beans?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Nope

    Saying that god doesnt exist is a response to the claim being made that he does. The claim is being made by the religious ones. The statement by atheist is a response to said claim hence why the burden of proof falls on the religious ones as they are the ones making the claim of his existence

    As far as creation vs evolution or creation vs big bang. As Pat already pointed out earlier, there is evidence in favor of both of these. These claims are not made out of thin air, but you are right, if one claims the universe started with a big bang then they have the burden of proof, but again there is evidence out there for this to be a possibility (but that discussion is beyond the scope of this thread and quite frankly my understanding) Is it an indisputable fact? No as there really arent any "facts" in science, only theories. But this is why science is great as it is forever growing, evolving, changing and being challenged. It revolves around the hunger to have a better understanding of things. Rarely are things ever accepted which results in there always being someone testing someone else's theory/work where religion remains stagnate. You accept whatever is presented to you via some book or religious leader and dont question it and will just believe it. Your problem is your comparing theory to blind faith when the two are not the same. Science is based on theories and evidence where as religion is based purely on blind faith. You really cant compare the two and thats why these science vs religion threads are usually pointless to get involved with.

    NOTE: I am not taking sides and by any means am not discrediting your faith or belittling your beliefs. This is not my intention. Also, I will not not participate any further into this religion v science discussion. I have learned a long time ago it is a pointless venture. I typically stay out of any thread that is about religion or politics. was only commenting on your post saying they had the burden to prove god doesnt exist. You cant prove a negative so it falls on the religious ones to prove his existence.
    This is a fallacy I often see in these religious type debates. Those who believe in a higher power want you to prove one doesn't exist instead of proving one does exist. As you said earlier you can't prove a negative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sidoious View Post
    So...did God make green coffee beans?
    I think that's what we're working on

    Though I don't know that the quotes really strengthen your argument really Whacked you can find just as many quotes about atheism from brilliant minds. I mean this is the big problem of philosophy and has been for a long time. A lot of people have said smart stuff on both sides.

    "The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence. Science is simply common sense at its best -- that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic."

    Thomas Henry Huxley.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    I think that's what we're working on

    Though I don't know that the quotes really strengthen your argument really Whacked you can find just as many quotes about atheism from brilliant minds. I mean this is the big problem of philosophy and has been for a long time. A lot of people have said smart stuff on both sides.

    "The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence. Science is simply common sense at its best -- that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic."

    Thomas Henry Huxley.
    I think the trouble with this particular philosophical debate is that people start slinging rocks and calling names. The bottom line is none of us will truly know until we know. Until then we should just try to get along. I will have to say that this thread(though no longer about green coffee bean extract lol) seems to have for the most part retained its civility. That is a good thing.
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    lmao @ a theist getting offended (by a sarcastic tongue-in-cheek comment) enough to derail an informative thread into a pompous justification for his religion. I guess this thread is dead now, good while it lasted.
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    Oh and one more thing...can you imagine that the rest of the world would ever dream a bunch of muscle heads would be sitting around the computer locked in a philosophical debate? I think not!
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    Oh and one more thing...can you imagine that the rest of the world would ever dream a bunch of muscle heads would be sitting around the computer locked in a philosophical debate? I think not!
    I can guarantee you I've been flexing calves and biceps the whole time I've posted in this thread
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    I can guarantee you I've been flexing calves and biceps the whole time I've posted in this thread
    That goes without saying lol, my super gripper and forearm exerciser are never at rest lol and just when you thought this thread was derailed beyond all salvation check this out, not only is green coffee bean extract touted as a fatloss agent it appear that unlike its roasted brethren(coffee beans in hell lol) is antihypertensive check this out
    Hypertens Res.
    2004 Oct;27(10):731-7.
    Green coffee bean extract improves human vasoreactivity.

    Ochiai R, Jokura H, Suzuki A, Tokimitsu I, Ohishi M, Komai N, Rakugi H, Ogihara T.
    Source

    Biological Science Laboratories, Kao Corp, Tochigi, Japan. ochiai.ryuuji@kao.co.jp

    Abstract

    Our previous study revealed the antihypertensive effects of green coffee bean extract (GCE) ingestion in spontaneously hypertensive rats. We suggested that this antihypertensive action was due to the fact that GCE contains chlorogenic acid (CQA) as a major phenolic compound, and CQA in turn contains ferulic acid as a metabolic component that acts on nitric oxide (NO) derived from the vascular endothelium. In this study, the effects of GCE on blood vessels were evaluated in healthy males. The subjects were 20 healthy males with reduced vasodilation responses measured by strain gauge plethysmograms (SPG) to ischemic reactive hyperemia. Of the 20 subjects, 10 (mean age, 37.2 years) ingested a test drink containing GCE (CQA: 140 mg/day), and the other 10 (mean age, 34.8 years) ingested a placebo drink for 4 months. During the ingestion period, SPG, pulse wave velocity (PWV), and serum biochemical parameters were measured, and acceleration plethysmograms (APG) were taken. The reactive hyperemia ratio (RHR) in the test drink group began to increase after ingestion for 1 month and was significantly higher (p <0.05) than that in the placebo group after ingestion for 3 months and 4 months. In addition, after ingestion for 4 months, the test drink group showed a significant decrease (p <0.01) in the plasma total homocysteine level compared with the pre-ingestion level. However, there were no significant differences in PWV or APG between the test drink group and the placebo drink group. The improvement in RHR after ingestion of a drink containing GCE suggested an improvement in vasoreactivity by this component.

    PMID: 15785008 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text


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