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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Waiting for this geneticisit friend of Patrick's.
    .
    His response for me was

    "i dont argue with flat earthers"

    my friend has more important things to do, like getting papers published in Nature and discovering that there are two species of elephants in africa (using that false science known as genetics)
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    Quote Originally Posted by sidoious View Post
    Much like religion.
    ouch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    THe thing is the burden of proof falls to the believer as they make claims that they cannot back up with evidence,just more rhetoric as to why I believe differently.It's unprovable but fun to debate.

    All believers who try and use the prove me wronbg argument look at this

    thats a good video and is quite relevant to what is going on here

    I dont expect the religious people to change their opinion but to continue to try desperately to defend their opinion using completely flawed argument strategies. I feel sad for them, as I believe they think are doing the right thing. It must be very hard to question that which you have come to accept as so central to your being
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    Nope no vision. I've never had a vision. Ironically my belief in God is based upon rational thought. Difficult maybe for you to digest, but there are many like me. Rational, scientific individuals who also believe in God!
    you appear to have completely contradicted your earlier statements
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    When you are asked to prove that evolved from mere organic buildings blocks into the complex organisms that we are you too are unable to do so. You literally have nothing other than making statements like we share common DNA with the rest of the animal kingdom. That isn't an argument for evolution any more than you can say that a building has evolved from a tree because they share some common materials.
    l.
    no one here is going to give you an explanation of the theory of evolution because it is so grand a subject it would require hundreds of hundreds of pages of text. thousands and thousands. you are starting to really annoy me with this line of attack

    why dont you start here. this appears to be pretty accurate

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    So....have anyone's fundamental beliefs changed as a result of this thread?

    i think i have become a satanist actually
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    what proof do you have of quasars, protons, neutrons? Other people have told you they have seen them. Just like prophets tell people they have seen god. Or they show you math you can't understand and you have to take it on faith they are correct.
    true, all these physicists might be lying. we may never have landed on the moon and bin laden may still be alive

    the earth may be flat. i mean, i havent circumvented it nor have i experienced space travel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    May I ask a question without you Atheists getting enraged?

    No disrespect/offense intended....

    Why do Atheists argue over the existence of a God so passionately?

    Christians obviously argue passionately as it's "sacred" to us.

    I will never comprehend this. It's like it stems from a deep-rooted bitterness or something.
    the origin of this argument (look back) was the apparent disdain for science that Flaw had. That got me started. I see religious signatures in peoples posts all the time and i see religious people all the time and i am fine to let them believe what they want. But if you start attacking science and denying scientific evidence because it does not fit neatly into your theology that offends me

    I cant speak for others, but thats my stance
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    and if you were born in Palestine you would be praising Allah.Funny isn't it how religion is based on geography.Maybe Allah or Krishna is the true God.But of course you know Jesus is the real deal and how can I aruge with a non-evident claim.
    In Islam, Jesus (Isa; Arabic: عيسىʿĪsā) is considered to be a Messenger of God and the Masih (Messiah) who was sent to guide the Children of
    Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl or Gospel.[1] The belief in Jesus (and all other messengers of God) is required in Islam, and a requirement of being a Muslim. The Quran mentions Jesus twenty-five times, more often, by name, than Muhammad.[2][3] It states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (Arabic:Allah). To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles (such as healing the blind, bringing dead people back to life, etc.), all by the permission of God rather than of his own power. According to the popular opinion and Muslim traditions,Jesus was not crucified but instead, he was raised up by God unto the heavens. This "raising" is understood to mean through bodilyascension.
    Perhaps not see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam ,... I'm just reffing here, if you are going to make broad statement check it first, the Muslims also believe Jesus is the Messiah, whic also makes it more amazing everyone cannot play nice when the common ground is huge .....OK Now PLAY BALL !!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    Perhaps not see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam ,... I'm just reffing here, if you are going to make broad statement check it first, the Muslims also believe Jesus is the Messiah, whic also makes it more amazing everyone cannot play nice when the common ground is huge .....OK Now PLAY BALL !!!
    they also believe that judas was crucified on the cross. look it up
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    and if you were born in Palestine you would be praising Allah.Funny isn't it how religion is based on geography.Maybe Allah or Krishna is the true God.But of course you know Jesus is the real deal and how can I aruge with a non-evident claim.
    You realise ALLAH means God right? And Jesus was the Son of God (God in flesh). Thought I'd clear that up.
    Last edited by Jiigzz; 06-07-2012 at 08:56 PM. Reason: More Info
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    they also believe that judas was crucified on the cross. look it up
    I know, I am good friends with a muslim at work. He filled me in on all the similarities between the Christian and Muslim faiths
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

    they also believe that judas was crucified on the cross. look it up
    That's not exactly true. Quran says it was made to look like Jesus was crucified. Which could mean a lot of things. I will say this though, I don't believe religion and science have to clash. In history the Muslims were some of the greatest scientists
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    May I ask a question without you Atheists getting enraged?

    No disrespect/offense intended....

    Why do Atheists argue over the existence of a God so passionately?

    Christians obviously argue passionately as it's "sacred" to us.

    I will never comprehend this. It's like it stems from a deep-rooted bitterness or something.

    It's like this, my jerk neighbor was furious about the property line one time b/c I accidentally extended a mulch bed onto his side (we have odd lots, with nearly impossible triangular dimensions to know how/where the lots are defined). I laughed my butt off and said ok man, no sweat at all, I will fix it all. I didnt give a second thought and didnt even care to investigate if he was right.

    He was SO passionate about it is was hilarious. Frankly, I couldnt care less where the darn property line is! LOL

    As such, I did NOT engage AT ALL. For what it's worth, I NOW think the guy might even be wrong (as I view it from the street, I am pretttty sure the imaginary line favors MY lot)....but it is so irrelevant to me, I let it go as I figred WOW, this dude REALLLLY cares about his lot LOL

    I hope you can appreciate the analogy?

    If I did not believe there was a God, why would I give a HOOT that someone else did?
    Yet again I will iterate my simple question.If you were born in India you would worship Brahma.Why would you not dispute Brahma rather than atheists.Remember you shall not have false Gods before you.Of course if you really believe in Christianity answer this....had you been born in Palestine or Iraq would the Christian God have found you?


    Why do I care.It's the anaology of having a pistol.It's nice to have one and be proud of it but please don't try and shove it down my throat every chance you get.Ie the oath system,money,religious schools ect...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Yet again I will iterate my simple question.If you were born in India you would worship Brahma.Why would you not dispute Brahma rather than atheists.Remember you shall not have false Gods before you.Of course if you really believe in Christianity answer this....had you been born in Palestine or Iraq would the Christian God have found you?


    Why do I care.It's the anaology of having a pistol.It's nice to have one and be proud of it but please don't try and shove it down my throat every chance you get.Ie the oath system,money,religious schools ect...
    You'd have to ask someone from that country. What exactly does this question seek to prove? People bought up in a technophobe area are more likely to follow the trend, technophobia didnt find them, its just all they know becaause that is the way they are raised. Likewise, a person in a low socio-economic climate is likely to follow the habits and mannerisms of those they are in close contact with. Or those in wealthy climates are likely to do the same with those they are in close contact with.

    If your confronted with Islam everywhere you go, of course you are going to follow suit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    Perhaps not see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam ,... I'm just reffing here, if you are going to make broad statement check it first, the Muslims also believe Jesus is the Messiah, whic also makes it more amazing everyone cannot play nice when the common ground is huge .....OK Now PLAY BALL !!!
    I hate to tell you, but if you read the Qu'ran, Jesus was not the Messiah...he was a prophet, similar to Adam, Moses, David, etc... Muhammed was the final prophet as he received the final word from god.

    In terms of the crucifixion in the Qu'ran, you are correct he was not crucified. It specifically states that someone else was in his place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    His response for me was

    "i dont argue with flat earthers"

    my friend has more important things to do, like getting papers published in Nature and discovering that there are two species of elephants in africa (using that false science known as genetics)
    Intelligent response from your friend...when a fairly simple legitimate question is asked about one of the principle behind the theory of evolution he dismisses it. What if I told you that other than maybe a sub-set of a population most didn't believe in a flat earth. And they believed in planets with their own orbits circulating around the Sun and that I can guarantee.

    Now my problem really isn't about differing beliefs. I can understand why Roniboney doesn't believe in a God if his starting point is that he will only believe in only what he can perceive. The logic would lead us to the non-existence of God. My starting premise is different and my logic leads me to a different conclusion. Logic isn't the problem, its just a tool. You start with different premises you will have different outcomes based upon the same logic.

    My problem is with atheists who some how think they are more intelligent, rational and have a greater right to science because they disbelieve in a God. I'm not sure how many time we have to say this but most theists believe in science and if you look throughout history theists have contributed massively to science. I just understand why the belief in God and science has to be mutual exclusive. One is not dependent upon the other. We believe that we a comprised of millions of cells, each with its own nuclues and DNA, chromosomes and genes. We also believe that genes can mutate and when they do so there is a phenotypic change that alters the individual's physiology but we also believe it was God who created this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    I know, I am good friends with a muslim at work. He filled me in on all the similarities between the Christian and Muslim faiths
    There really isn't a great deal of difference. What I love about atheists is that they can make generalised sweeping statements that are completely incorrect without doing the least bit of research.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    There really isn't a great deal of difference. What I love about atheists is that they can make generalised sweeping statements that are completely incorrect without doing the least bit of research.
    no true but I like this sentence due to you being able to replace atheist with theist.Heck it's more correct.

    Please elaborate what sweeping statements we have made?
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    Intelligent response from your friend...when a fairly simple legitimate question is asked about one of the principle behind the theory of evolution he dismisses it. What if I told you that other than maybe a sub-set of a population most didn't believe in a flat earth. And they believed in planets with their own orbits circulating around the Sun and that I can guarantee.

    Now my problem really isn't about differing beliefs. I can understand why Roniboney doesn't believe in a God if his starting point is that he will only believe in only what he can perceive. The logic would lead us to the non-existence of God. My starting premise is different and my logic leads me to a different conclusion. Logic isn't the problem, its just a tool. You start with different premises you will have different outcomes based upon the same logic.

    My problem is with atheists who some how think they are more intelligent, rational and have a greater right to science because they disbelieve in a God. I'm not sure how many time we have to say this but most theists believe in science and if you look throughout history theists have contributed massively to science. I just understand why the belief in God and science has to be mutual exclusive. One is not dependent upon the other. We believe that we a comprised of millions of cells, each with its own nuclues and DNA, chromosomes and genes. We also believe that genes can mutate and when they do so there is a phenotypic change that alters the individual's physiology but we also believe it was God who created this.
    No, why would they be?

    They are not exclusive, or rather, they do not have to be. I see them as separate. Do not see faith as provable, proof defeats the purpose of faith. I do not see one religion as ever being the One True Religion. There may only be one God (though even He doesn't claim that).



    Elements of Christianity, Judiaism and Islam are all verifiably false. Certain passages in all of them have been proven to be fiction. The question is, are these then to be considered 'lies', 'mistakes', or 'illustrations'?



    Depends on your agenda, doesn't it?



    Science could possibly find evidence for the existance of God, but I am certain that it can't prove a religion. Religion is largely a question of honoring traditions. You can't quantify that. You can't 'prove' that. You can take passages from the scriptures and prove that events mentioned did not happen, or places did not exist (and vice versa), but you can't say what a person should believe is the correct interpretation of those results.



    Suppose science proved there was never a global flood (actually, there is some evidence one did occur)? Would that mean that Noah's Ark is a) an evil lie told to scare and control people, b) a misunderstanding caused by some terrible but perfectly natural disaster of antiquity, or c) a story meant to illustrate some aspect of God and provide moral guidance?



    I deny that science and relgion are mutually exclusive on the basis that they serve different purposes. To that end, they are no more 'mutually exclusive' than hammers and screwdrivers. Each is an implement in humanity's toolbox for understanding the universe. One seeks to understand the external universe, and one speaks more to the internal one.



    Science provides understanding, not meaning.


    Religion (practiced in the best ways) provides moral, social, and contextual input not obtainable through other tools. You can have ethics without religion, but morals gesture toward some 'cosmic accountability'. You can have society without religion, but common belief provides a type of community that shared history and geography do not. Understanding (believing) that events are not random and impersonal provides a mode of living not experienced in the absence of faith. None of which is to say one way is 'better', merely that to have both is (to me) preferable to relying wholly one on to explain everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I hate to tell you, but if you read the Qu'ran, Jesus was not the Messiah...he was a prophet, similar to Adam, Moses, David, etc... Muhammed was the final prophet as he received the final word from god.

    In terms of the crucifixion in the Qu'ran, you are correct he was not crucified. It specifically states that someone else was in his place.
    Tell it to wikipedia, I do no have time to search the all the religious books of the world, I perhaps wrongfully relied on some scholar to do so for me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    You'd have to ask someone from that country. What exactly does this question seek to prove? People bought up in a technophobe area are more likely to follow the trend, technophobia didnt find them, its just all they know becaause that is the way they are raised. Likewise, a person in a low socio-economic climate is likely to follow the habits and mannerisms of those they are in close contact with. Or those in wealthy climates are likely to do the same with those they are in close contact with.

    If your confronted with Islam everywhere you go, of course you are going to follow suit.
    It proves that your biased to a certain religion and not to an idea of God in itself.

    If you choose a certain religion your deciding to dismiss the morals of another.

    Your beliefs are solely based on your geography.Your never brought up with Muslim ethics before joining the Islamic faith.It is always the latter followed by adopting the ethics.

    What I'm trying to prove is that your religion is based on luck of birth.That's simply a fact you cannot refute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    Tell it to wikipedia, I do no have time to search the all the religious books of the world, I perhaps wrongfully relied on some scholar to do so for me
    thats the beuaty of wiki....anyone can change anything.

    One of the least reliable sources out there

    edit: after reading the section...the term Masih, which translates into messiah is not based on messiah in the christian construct. It means prophet as I mentioned above
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    There really isn't a great deal of difference. What I love about atheists is that they can make generalised sweeping statements that are completely incorrect without doing the least bit of research.
    sadly, this can go for theists of all denominations as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    sadly, this can go for theists of all denominations as well
    I said this a few post up actually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by diggyboo View Post
    That's not exactly true. Quran says it was made to look like Jesus was crucified. Which could mean a lot of things. I will say this though, I don't believe religion and science have to clash. In history the Muslims were some of the greatest scientists
    some muslims say it was judas who took on jesus' face. thats what my egyptian friend in new jersey told me a long time ago

    i think their are alot of different versions in islam
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    I can't tell if you're being purposefully obtuse or not. I NEVER said no evidence exists, no idea where you're getting that from. This should help, happy reading.

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=scientific+evidence+for+evolution
    No offense to You geoforce, the word YOU was used in the sense of anyone.
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