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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    I think (and I could be wrong) a lot of it has to do with God creating the world basically and then evolution being what takes place. .
    I could live with that theory. God designed a plan that managed itself. There's no biblical evidence that God actively continued to create and work after humans. His only active force is holy spirit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    I could live with that theory. God designed a plan that managed itself. There's no biblical evidence that God actively continued to create and work after humans. His only active force is holy spirit.
    Obviously as an agnostic I don't necessarily buy into it (yeah I take that hard line stance of not buying into anything ), but I was trying to show him that many people believe the two can coexist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Ohh I'am sorry I ment GREAT APES. Does that clarify it better for you?

    If we evolved from The Hominidae family then how come Chimps, Orangs, Gorillas still exist? Why haven't they turned into us? They continue to breed and make the same species and we continue to breed and make the same species. I've never seen a human give birth to a chimp or have seen a chimp give birth a human. Have you? Even if a human tried to breed with a chimp the chimp would not give birth to a half-human/ half-chimp hybrid. No conception results at all.
    Evolution takes place over the time span of thousands, millions, billions of years, not the <100 years that you have been alive. I am not going to reply anymore. I am sorry, but the statements you are making show you have absolutely no idea what you are even discussing. Take a few courses in genetics, evolution, or any biology for that matter and then maybe we will have something to talk about.

    Edit: I suppose I should say evolution always takes place, because that is technically correct. But, you cannot see actual changes in species over a 100 year time period, that is the point. Also, you need mechanisms for change. Evolution happens in waves. Very large changes separated by periods of little change. Something has to push the evolution to occur.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    Evolution takes place over the time span of thousands, millions, billions of years, not the <100 years that you have been alive. I am not going to reply anymore. I am sorry, but the statements you are making show you have absolutely no idea what you are even discussing. Take a few courses in genetics, evolution, or any biology for that matter and then maybe we will have something to talk about.

    Edit: I suppose I should say evolution always takes place, because that is technically correct. But, you cannot see actual changes in species over a 100 year time period, that is the point. Also, you need mechanisms for change. Evolution happens in waves. Very large changes separated by periods of little change. Something has to push the evolution to occur.
    Your saying something that has not been proven. If you read my other post you would see I acknowledge microevolution but There's no solid evidence of macroevolution. It's not that I don't understand what your saying, it's that scientifically I can't agree. It's psuedoscience. Look up the scientist Wolf-Ekkehard Lonnig and his findings. Data of 100 years of mutation and 70 years of mutation breeding offered this only conclusion. "Mutations cannot transform an original species into a entirely new one"- Lonnig.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Ohh I'am sorry I ment GREAT APES. Does that clarify it better for you?

    If we evolved from The Hominidae family then how come Chimps, Orangs, Gorillas still exist? Why haven't they turned into us? They continue to breed and make the same species and we continue to breed and make the same species. I've never seen a human give birth to a chimp or have seen a chimp give birth a human. Have you? Even if a human tried to breed with a chimp the chimp would not give birth to a half-human/ half-chimp hybrid. No conception results at all.
    oh for the love of............................ ............
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Your saying something that has not been proven. If you read my other post you would see I acknowledge microevolution but There's no solid evidence of macroevolution. It's not that I don't understand what your saying, it's that scientifically I can't agree. It's psuedoscience. Look up the scientist Wolf-Ekkehard Lonnig and his findings. Data of 100 years of mutation and 70 years of mutation breeding offered this only conclusion. "Mutations cannot transform an original species into a entirely new one"- Lonnig.
    It is not pseudoscience. But like I said I am not going to go back and forth it won't accomplish anything. Evolution is a theory​ (theory in science is supported by fact), it is supported by the vast majority of scientists (~99% if not more), and if you do not then that is fine it doesn't really bother me. But the evidence for evolution is >>>>>>> than any evidence for creationism.
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    "you're saying something that has not been proven" *sigh*

    How does one unsub from a thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Ohh I'am sorry I ment GREAT APES. Does that clarify it better for you?

    If we evolved from The Hominidae family then how come Chimps, Orangs, Gorillas still exist? Why haven't they turned into us? .

    i dont think these species turned into us, i think a common ancestor turned into them and us

    some species survive a long time, others dont
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post

    Edit: I suppose I should say evolution always takes place, because that is technically correct. But, you cannot see actual changes in species over a 100 year time period, that is the point. Also, you need mechanisms for change. Evolution happens in waves. Very large changes separated by periods of little change. Something has to push the evolution to occur.

    this last bit is key. often it takes extreme environmental stress to cause natural selection to occur. most of a species die but the ones with the right mutation that helps them survive carry on. this happens over and over again over large expanses of time and you end up with evolution
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    I would've never guessed that green coffee bean was such a very delicate an intensely religious subject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vidapreta View Post
    I would've never guessed that green coffee bean was such a very delicate an intensely religious subject.
    Coffee has always been sacred to me but I prefer mine roasted nectar of the Gods for sure
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Your saying something that has not been proven. If you read my other post you would see I acknowledge microevolution but There's no solid evidence of macroevolution. It's not that I don't understand what your saying, it's that scientifically I can't agree. It's psuedoscience. Look up the scientist Wolf-Ekkehard Lonnig and his findings. Data of 100 years of mutation and 70 years of mutation breeding offered this only conclusion. "Mutations cannot transform an original species into a entirely new one"- Lonnig.
    Please refer your bolded section to the comments that were made above them. The process of mutations and/or evolution works on a time scale of far greater than 70-100 years. Your comment here truly does not apply to this discussion. That is like a kid saying they are an A student throughout their educational career based on an A they received on a 1st grade spelling quiz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    oh for the love of............................ ............
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    It is not pseudoscience. But like I said I am not going to go back and forth it won't accomplish anything. Evolution is a theory​ (theory in science is supported by fact), it is supported by the vast majority of scientists (~99% if not more), and if you do not then that is fine it doesn't really bother me. But the evidence for evolution is >>>>>>> than any evidence for creationism.
    Quote Originally Posted by anathemax View Post
    "you're saying something that has not been proven" *sigh*

    How does one unsub from a thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i dont think these species turned into us, i think a common ancestor turned into them and us

    some species survive a long time, others dont
    Where is this common ancestor? What is it?

    I love how you guys are so willing to teach If you know something you think I don't then why won't you take the time to explain it to me? Why do you have to act as if you just know and I should just accept your theorys without showing me any evidence? Someone taught you what you know and probably had a lot of patience doing so.

    I'am still waiting for the evidence of macroevolution..

    What are some FACTS of evolution?
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    Looking at what we know and concluding that there is no such thing as evolution is clearly a product of selecting data to fit your hypothesis. It's like reading a product write up for a supplement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Why do you have to act as if you just know and I should just accept your theorys without showing me any evidence?
    This question sounds ironically familiar yet...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Where is this common ancestor? What is it?
    ?
    the apes split off from chimps and humans and the primates before that were the common ancestors
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Where is this common ancestor? What is it?

    I love how you guys are so willing to teach If you know something you think I don't then why won't you take the time to explain it to me? Why do you have to act as if you just know and I should just accept your theorys without showing me any evidence? Someone taught you what you know and probably had a lot of patience doing so.

    I'am still waiting for the evidence of macroevolution..

    What are some FACTS of evolution?

    We are not hear to teach you a science which is well documented. you are starting to be a jerk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    We are not hear to teach you a science which is well documented. you are starting to be a jerk
    How is this NOT a justified question given the progression of this thread? Given the previous comments from the Atheist crowd attempting to "prove" we evolved from apes, shouldnt they provide a smoking gun and back up such "proof" with scientific fact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Where is this common ancestor? What is it?

    I love how you guys are so willing to teach If you know something you think I don't then why won't you take the time to explain it to me? Why do you have to act as if you just know and I should just accept your theorys without showing me any evidence? Someone taught you what you know and probably had a lot of patience doing so.

    I'am still waiting for the evidence of macroevolution..

    What are some FACTS of evolution?
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    Why are you arguing about evolution? Its clear that noone knows, even in the scientific community of what really occured. You guys are just putting up the same arguments and rebuttles as everyone else. This kind of discussion will literally go nowhere unless evolution is either disproved or regarded as fact. Of which neither has occured. Yes, people have done studies and experiements yet these have been flawed in more ways than one, often not recreating the exact conditions on the earth as it was, or producing the same outcomes as it was.

    And yes, gravity is just a theory however evolution is a lot different. Gravity can be measured, it effects can be witnessed whereas evolution cannot be. Compare the two all you like, it doesnt mean everything that is a theory should be taken as fact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    I'am still waiting for the evidence of macroevolution..

    What are some FACTS of evolution?
    Part of the problem with this debate is that anyone can turn anything around and we remain at square one.

    I'm still waiting for the evidence of creationism.

    What are some FACTS of creationism? Hint: Won't accept Genesis as evidence or fact.


    I'm by no means an expert when it comes to evolution and most of what I could show would be via google anyways. It's been over 15 years since I was in a class that talked about it and I likely skipped most of those sessions anyways

    Plenty of scientific information about evolution is on google would be my response. Undoubtedly more scientific evidence than exists for creationism. Googling On the Origin of Species should lead you to plenty of scientific evidence for what shaped Darwin's theory. I hope someone can clarify your question better, but I certainly cannot nor will pretend I can. Still asking for facts is a bit lame as evolution as already mentioned is a theory. A fact is something that we know is demonstrably true. Evidence exists for evolution, but since it cannot be fully proven how can you expect "facts" to exist?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Einstein was never a theist.It is a common myth.Check your evidence more carefully.Newton,Boyle and Faraday weren't in an age that could have accepted and actually thought of this belief.Did you know that Descartes was an atheist.He was threatened to change I think therefore I am to I think therfore I am therefore God under pretty unscrupulous circumstances.

    Did I ever say that I 100% think we're not created?Nope because I would never say it because it's not provable.It would not be logical.Just how the belief in a single God,whats more the Christian God is the one true God is not logical.

    None of you creationists have answered my question about how your religious beliefs is just a matter of geography.But oh no of course that one true God would have come to you some way or another right.

    If we understand the mechanics we're getting closer to the answer.If it ends up being God I'll believe but don't try and belittle the guys in labcoats who are trying to look for an answer instead of blindly saying this is what we should believe because we can't answer the question and apologise for being human every Sunday.Anyone who does that has a screw loose.
    But you've got me wrong. I am not a Christian nor do I belittle guys in labcoats. I'm a scientist by background. My honours degree is biochemistry, so please don't take this as an attack on science or any work that attempts to understand the world in which we live. My point only is that we cannot discount the existence of God because we as humans have a process for understanding the world around us. I just don't think science and God are mutually exclusive...that's all.

    And the point about Einstein...its not a myth....Einstein didn't believe in a personal God, but he did believe in one due his theory of relativity pointing towards the Universe having a beginning. I've pasted his quote regarding this below...

    "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."


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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    But you've got me wrong. I am not a Christian nor do I belittle guys in labcoats. I'm a scientist by background. My honours degree is biochemistry, so please don't take this as an attack on science or any work that attempts to understand the world in which we live. My point only is that we cannot discount the existence of God because we as humans have a process for understanding the world around us. I just don't think science and God are mutually exclusive...that's all.

    And the point about Einstein...its not a myth....Einstein didn't believe in a personal God, but he did believe in one due his theory of relativity pointing towards the Universe having a beginning. I've pasted his quote regarding this below...

    "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."


    Deism is completely dfferent to theism or atheism.Just because you believe in a force doesn't mean it's a God.He attests to that.Through his compendeum of writing.Some of the major quotes is in ''The God Delusion''.


    According to Einstein, God is "a product of human weakness''.Deist,maybe ,theist ,never.
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    agreed. Einstein was not a theist by any means. Eventhough the universe had a beginning, it was not pointing towards an involved creator. It is 2 entirely different concepts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    How is this NOT a justified question given the progression of this thread? Given the previous comments from the Atheist crowd attempting to "prove" we evolved from apes, shouldnt they provide a smoking gun and back up such "proof" with scientific fact?
    ok you win. i am unable to give you guys a comprehensive education on the theory of evolution therefore it is a myth or doesnt exist and the bible is correct

    give me a break. u sit back and throw these lame stones at science while offering no evidence to support your religious beliefs on the universe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Why are you arguing about evolution? Its clear that noone knows, even in the scientific community of what really occured. You guys are just putting up the same arguments and rebuttles as everyone else. This kind of discussion will literally go nowhere unless evolution is either disproved or regarded as fact. Of which neither has occured. Yes, people have done studies and experiements yet these have been flawed in more ways than one, often not recreating the exact conditions on the earth as it was, or producing the same outcomes as it was.

    And yes, gravity is just a theory however evolution is a lot different. Gravity can be measured, it effects can be witnessed whereas evolution cannot be. Compare the two all you like, it doesnt mean everything that is a theory should be taken as fact.
    evolution can be pretty accurately measured through genetic analyses actually
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    Absence of understanding is NOT proof of god. Books are not in themselves proof of the text they contain.

    The argument that the bible or any other religious text is proof of god simply because they exist is preposterous.

    If you'd like to base your life on unrepeatable magic tricks done and written about before the average person knew the earth revolves around the sun be my guest.

    I don't deny a possibility of god but anyone who thinks they know the truth about that is deluded at least if not plain crazy.

    In my experience, those who reserve a place for the possibility of god are typically decent people, while those convinced of gods existence thinking they know gods thoughts and wishes tend to be arrogant, bigoted, irrational people.

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    To be clear: No one is attemptring to make that case.

    Christians flat out ADMIT we have no "tangible proof" as faith is the cornerstone and at the epicenter of our existence. It is who we are and what we ascribe to beliefs-wise.

    Conversely, Atheists that take the position of denying the existence of a Creator/GOD have to hang their hats on tangible proof provided by scientific fact as faith is irrelevant to them.

    Since no such proof exists, an Agnostic position makes more sense (think about it). To be so convicted about the NON-exisitence of a Creator/God, without scientific proof, is a quantum leap of faith in and of itself, is it not?

    Similarly, Christians take a leap of faith that God exists, as for us, we have a sort of spirtitual proof. Our proof cannot be explained away as fact or tangible evidence either; but that is the essense of faith.

    The dymanic of faith is not a luxury or cop out, it is just reality for us.

    Christians do not claim to be able to provide scientific factual proof of a Creator/God BUT Atheists take the stance on claimning anything and everything can be explained away thru/by science.

    So, then, DO IT is all we're saying. It can't be done. So, when an Atheist attempts to explain away a GOD-LESS creation, they will always fall short.

    At the end fo the day, ANY HUMAN'S belief comes down to adopting/fostering a personal view of a THEORY. For a Christian, theory becomes FACT to US when we accept the doctrines of Christianity as it makes sense to US and provides MORE proof than science can for an Atheist and hence, becomes fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by cswalczakny View Post
    Absence of understanding is NOT proof of god. Books are not in themselves proof of the text they contain.

    The argument that the bible or any other religious text is proof of god simply because they exist is preposterous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Deism is completely dfferent to theism or atheism.Just because you believe in a force doesn't mean it's a God.He attests to that.Through his compendeum of writing.Some of the major quotes is in ''The God Delusion''.


    According to Einstein, God is "a product of human weakness''.Deist,maybe ,theist ,never.
    I know what deism is....my point is that you can all it a life force or mother nature, but the implication is the same, ie an intelligent force being that designed, created and ordered the Universe. The term God is a word and like all words its symbolises a deep meaning by being associated with it. You can attach whatever word you want to the underlying mean.

    Interestingly you've quotes from 'The God Delusion'....which the author of admitted the following in an interview on the BBC called Hard Talk...

    that we were likely created by other intelligent beings, aliens of sorts, and left here on Earth.

    So when it all comes down to it.....most believe in some intelligent being or beings or life force having created and ordered creation. Some 'rational' individuals call them aliens whilst others a life force and others a God. I suppose believing in aliens or a life force as a creator frees you from the having to act within the framework of religion...you are then able to define you're own right, wrong and morality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    We are not hear to teach you a science which is well documented. you are starting to be a jerk

    Where is this documentation? I'd like to learn. I'am not trying to be a jerk but if you wanna tell me I'am wrong and not educate me otherwise whose really being the jerk here? If your offended in any way it's only because you take offense to someone not agreeing with you. In science you have to take that emotion out of it don't you? You have debates and you don't get offended when someone disagrees with you. If you got offended by every opposing view how is your research ever going to progress? If every influencial scientist that ever existed let that person or persons who called them crazy and dumb for their ideas affect them.. well..they never would of been labled influencial.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post

    At the end fo the day, ANY HUMAN'S belief comes down to adopting/fostering a personal view of a THEORY. For a Christian, theory becomes FACT to US when we accept the doctrines of Christianity as it makes sense to US and provides MORE proof than science can for an Atheist and hence, becomes fact.
    so why cant theory become FACT for the atheist too?

    Just takes one saying "I am right and it is fact and that is all there is to it"
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