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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    May I ask a question without you Atheists getting enraged?

    No disrespect/offense intended....

    Why do Atheists argue over the existence of a God so passionately?

    Christians obviously argue passionately as it's "sacred" to us.

    I will never comprehend this. It's like it stems from a deep-rooted bitterness or something.
    the origin of this argument (look back) was the apparent disdain for science that Flaw had. That got me started. I see religious signatures in peoples posts all the time and i see religious people all the time and i am fine to let them believe what they want. But if you start attacking science and denying scientific evidence because it does not fit neatly into your theology that offends me

    I cant speak for others, but thats my stance
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    and if you were born in Palestine you would be praising Allah.Funny isn't it how religion is based on geography.Maybe Allah or Krishna is the true God.But of course you know Jesus is the real deal and how can I aruge with a non-evident claim.
    In Islam, Jesus (Isa; Arabic: عيسىʿĪsā) is considered to be a Messenger of God and the Masih (Messiah) who was sent to guide the Children of
    Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl or Gospel.[1] The belief in Jesus (and all other messengers of God) is required in Islam, and a requirement of being a Muslim. The Quran mentions Jesus twenty-five times, more often, by name, than Muhammad.[2][3] It states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (Arabic:Allah). To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles (such as healing the blind, bringing dead people back to life, etc.), all by the permission of God rather than of his own power. According to the popular opinion and Muslim traditions,Jesus was not crucified but instead, he was raised up by God unto the heavens. This "raising" is understood to mean through bodilyascension.
    Perhaps not see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam ,... I'm just reffing here, if you are going to make broad statement check it first, the Muslims also believe Jesus is the Messiah, whic also makes it more amazing everyone cannot play nice when the common ground is huge .....OK Now PLAY BALL !!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    Perhaps not see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam ,... I'm just reffing here, if you are going to make broad statement check it first, the Muslims also believe Jesus is the Messiah, whic also makes it more amazing everyone cannot play nice when the common ground is huge .....OK Now PLAY BALL !!!
    they also believe that judas was crucified on the cross. look it up
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    and if you were born in Palestine you would be praising Allah.Funny isn't it how religion is based on geography.Maybe Allah or Krishna is the true God.But of course you know Jesus is the real deal and how can I aruge with a non-evident claim.
    You realise ALLAH means God right? And Jesus was the Son of God (God in flesh). Thought I'd clear that up.
    Last edited by Jiigzz; 06-07-2012 at 08:56 PM. Reason: More Info
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    they also believe that judas was crucified on the cross. look it up
    I know, I am good friends with a muslim at work. He filled me in on all the similarities between the Christian and Muslim faiths
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

    they also believe that judas was crucified on the cross. look it up
    That's not exactly true. Quran says it was made to look like Jesus was crucified. Which could mean a lot of things. I will say this though, I don't believe religion and science have to clash. In history the Muslims were some of the greatest scientists
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    May I ask a question without you Atheists getting enraged?

    No disrespect/offense intended....

    Why do Atheists argue over the existence of a God so passionately?

    Christians obviously argue passionately as it's "sacred" to us.

    I will never comprehend this. It's like it stems from a deep-rooted bitterness or something.

    It's like this, my jerk neighbor was furious about the property line one time b/c I accidentally extended a mulch bed onto his side (we have odd lots, with nearly impossible triangular dimensions to know how/where the lots are defined). I laughed my butt off and said ok man, no sweat at all, I will fix it all. I didnt give a second thought and didnt even care to investigate if he was right.

    He was SO passionate about it is was hilarious. Frankly, I couldnt care less where the darn property line is! LOL

    As such, I did NOT engage AT ALL. For what it's worth, I NOW think the guy might even be wrong (as I view it from the street, I am pretttty sure the imaginary line favors MY lot)....but it is so irrelevant to me, I let it go as I figred WOW, this dude REALLLLY cares about his lot LOL

    I hope you can appreciate the analogy?

    If I did not believe there was a God, why would I give a HOOT that someone else did?
    Yet again I will iterate my simple question.If you were born in India you would worship Brahma.Why would you not dispute Brahma rather than atheists.Remember you shall not have false Gods before you.Of course if you really believe in Christianity answer this....had you been born in Palestine or Iraq would the Christian God have found you?


    Why do I care.It's the anaology of having a pistol.It's nice to have one and be proud of it but please don't try and shove it down my throat every chance you get.Ie the oath system,money,religious schools ect...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Yet again I will iterate my simple question.If you were born in India you would worship Brahma.Why would you not dispute Brahma rather than atheists.Remember you shall not have false Gods before you.Of course if you really believe in Christianity answer this....had you been born in Palestine or Iraq would the Christian God have found you?


    Why do I care.It's the anaology of having a pistol.It's nice to have one and be proud of it but please don't try and shove it down my throat every chance you get.Ie the oath system,money,religious schools ect...
    You'd have to ask someone from that country. What exactly does this question seek to prove? People bought up in a technophobe area are more likely to follow the trend, technophobia didnt find them, its just all they know becaause that is the way they are raised. Likewise, a person in a low socio-economic climate is likely to follow the habits and mannerisms of those they are in close contact with. Or those in wealthy climates are likely to do the same with those they are in close contact with.

    If your confronted with Islam everywhere you go, of course you are going to follow suit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    Perhaps not see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam ,... I'm just reffing here, if you are going to make broad statement check it first, the Muslims also believe Jesus is the Messiah, whic also makes it more amazing everyone cannot play nice when the common ground is huge .....OK Now PLAY BALL !!!
    I hate to tell you, but if you read the Qu'ran, Jesus was not the Messiah...he was a prophet, similar to Adam, Moses, David, etc... Muhammed was the final prophet as he received the final word from god.

    In terms of the crucifixion in the Qu'ran, you are correct he was not crucified. It specifically states that someone else was in his place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    His response for me was

    "i dont argue with flat earthers"

    my friend has more important things to do, like getting papers published in Nature and discovering that there are two species of elephants in africa (using that false science known as genetics)
    Intelligent response from your friend...when a fairly simple legitimate question is asked about one of the principle behind the theory of evolution he dismisses it. What if I told you that other than maybe a sub-set of a population most didn't believe in a flat earth. And they believed in planets with their own orbits circulating around the Sun and that I can guarantee.

    Now my problem really isn't about differing beliefs. I can understand why Roniboney doesn't believe in a God if his starting point is that he will only believe in only what he can perceive. The logic would lead us to the non-existence of God. My starting premise is different and my logic leads me to a different conclusion. Logic isn't the problem, its just a tool. You start with different premises you will have different outcomes based upon the same logic.

    My problem is with atheists who some how think they are more intelligent, rational and have a greater right to science because they disbelieve in a God. I'm not sure how many time we have to say this but most theists believe in science and if you look throughout history theists have contributed massively to science. I just understand why the belief in God and science has to be mutual exclusive. One is not dependent upon the other. We believe that we a comprised of millions of cells, each with its own nuclues and DNA, chromosomes and genes. We also believe that genes can mutate and when they do so there is a phenotypic change that alters the individual's physiology but we also believe it was God who created this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    I know, I am good friends with a muslim at work. He filled me in on all the similarities between the Christian and Muslim faiths
    There really isn't a great deal of difference. What I love about atheists is that they can make generalised sweeping statements that are completely incorrect without doing the least bit of research.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    There really isn't a great deal of difference. What I love about atheists is that they can make generalised sweeping statements that are completely incorrect without doing the least bit of research.
    no true but I like this sentence due to you being able to replace atheist with theist.Heck it's more correct.

    Please elaborate what sweeping statements we have made?
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    Intelligent response from your friend...when a fairly simple legitimate question is asked about one of the principle behind the theory of evolution he dismisses it. What if I told you that other than maybe a sub-set of a population most didn't believe in a flat earth. And they believed in planets with their own orbits circulating around the Sun and that I can guarantee.

    Now my problem really isn't about differing beliefs. I can understand why Roniboney doesn't believe in a God if his starting point is that he will only believe in only what he can perceive. The logic would lead us to the non-existence of God. My starting premise is different and my logic leads me to a different conclusion. Logic isn't the problem, its just a tool. You start with different premises you will have different outcomes based upon the same logic.

    My problem is with atheists who some how think they are more intelligent, rational and have a greater right to science because they disbelieve in a God. I'm not sure how many time we have to say this but most theists believe in science and if you look throughout history theists have contributed massively to science. I just understand why the belief in God and science has to be mutual exclusive. One is not dependent upon the other. We believe that we a comprised of millions of cells, each with its own nuclues and DNA, chromosomes and genes. We also believe that genes can mutate and when they do so there is a phenotypic change that alters the individual's physiology but we also believe it was God who created this.
    No, why would they be?

    They are not exclusive, or rather, they do not have to be. I see them as separate. Do not see faith as provable, proof defeats the purpose of faith. I do not see one religion as ever being the One True Religion. There may only be one God (though even He doesn't claim that).



    Elements of Christianity, Judiaism and Islam are all verifiably false. Certain passages in all of them have been proven to be fiction. The question is, are these then to be considered 'lies', 'mistakes', or 'illustrations'?



    Depends on your agenda, doesn't it?



    Science could possibly find evidence for the existance of God, but I am certain that it can't prove a religion. Religion is largely a question of honoring traditions. You can't quantify that. You can't 'prove' that. You can take passages from the scriptures and prove that events mentioned did not happen, or places did not exist (and vice versa), but you can't say what a person should believe is the correct interpretation of those results.



    Suppose science proved there was never a global flood (actually, there is some evidence one did occur)? Would that mean that Noah's Ark is a) an evil lie told to scare and control people, b) a misunderstanding caused by some terrible but perfectly natural disaster of antiquity, or c) a story meant to illustrate some aspect of God and provide moral guidance?



    I deny that science and relgion are mutually exclusive on the basis that they serve different purposes. To that end, they are no more 'mutually exclusive' than hammers and screwdrivers. Each is an implement in humanity's toolbox for understanding the universe. One seeks to understand the external universe, and one speaks more to the internal one.



    Science provides understanding, not meaning.


    Religion (practiced in the best ways) provides moral, social, and contextual input not obtainable through other tools. You can have ethics without religion, but morals gesture toward some 'cosmic accountability'. You can have society without religion, but common belief provides a type of community that shared history and geography do not. Understanding (believing) that events are not random and impersonal provides a mode of living not experienced in the absence of faith. None of which is to say one way is 'better', merely that to have both is (to me) preferable to relying wholly one on to explain everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I hate to tell you, but if you read the Qu'ran, Jesus was not the Messiah...he was a prophet, similar to Adam, Moses, David, etc... Muhammed was the final prophet as he received the final word from god.

    In terms of the crucifixion in the Qu'ran, you are correct he was not crucified. It specifically states that someone else was in his place.
    Tell it to wikipedia, I do no have time to search the all the religious books of the world, I perhaps wrongfully relied on some scholar to do so for me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    You'd have to ask someone from that country. What exactly does this question seek to prove? People bought up in a technophobe area are more likely to follow the trend, technophobia didnt find them, its just all they know becaause that is the way they are raised. Likewise, a person in a low socio-economic climate is likely to follow the habits and mannerisms of those they are in close contact with. Or those in wealthy climates are likely to do the same with those they are in close contact with.

    If your confronted with Islam everywhere you go, of course you are going to follow suit.
    It proves that your biased to a certain religion and not to an idea of God in itself.

    If you choose a certain religion your deciding to dismiss the morals of another.

    Your beliefs are solely based on your geography.Your never brought up with Muslim ethics before joining the Islamic faith.It is always the latter followed by adopting the ethics.

    What I'm trying to prove is that your religion is based on luck of birth.That's simply a fact you cannot refute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    Tell it to wikipedia, I do no have time to search the all the religious books of the world, I perhaps wrongfully relied on some scholar to do so for me
    thats the beuaty of wiki....anyone can change anything.

    One of the least reliable sources out there

    edit: after reading the section...the term Masih, which translates into messiah is not based on messiah in the christian construct. It means prophet as I mentioned above
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    There really isn't a great deal of difference. What I love about atheists is that they can make generalised sweeping statements that are completely incorrect without doing the least bit of research.
    sadly, this can go for theists of all denominations as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    sadly, this can go for theists of all denominations as well
    I said this a few post up actually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by diggyboo View Post
    That's not exactly true. Quran says it was made to look like Jesus was crucified. Which could mean a lot of things. I will say this though, I don't believe religion and science have to clash. In history the Muslims were some of the greatest scientists
    some muslims say it was judas who took on jesus' face. thats what my egyptian friend in new jersey told me a long time ago

    i think their are alot of different versions in islam
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    I can't tell if you're being purposefully obtuse or not. I NEVER said no evidence exists, no idea where you're getting that from. This should help, happy reading.

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=scientific+evidence+for+evolution
    No offense to You geoforce, the word YOU was used in the sense of anyone.
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    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    some muslims say it was judas who took on jesus' face. thats what my egyptian friend in new jersey told me a long time ago

    i think their are alot of different versions in islam
    there are predominantly 3 versions of Islam, Sunni, Sh'ia, Wahabbi.

    The Qu'ran is unique in that it was not a written tradition, it was a memorized oral tradition. I had a former student who had to move to Lebanon as a young boy to memorize the Qu'ran. Which from my understanding is a fairly common occurrence. That said, the version I have read stated that it was made to look like Jesus, but never mentioned anyone else by name.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    His response for me was

    "i dont argue with flat earthers"

    my friend has more important things to do, like getting papers published in Nature and discovering that there are two species of elephants in africa (using that false science known as genetics)
    Hmm.. How "Convenient".

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the origin of this argument (look back) was the apparent disdain for science that Flaw had. That got me started. I see religious signatures in peoples posts all the time and i see religious people all the time and i am fine to let them believe what they want. But if you start attacking science and denying scientific evidence because it does not fit neatly into your theology that offends me
    Disdain is a strong word Mr. Arnold and I will strongly deny I have a disdain for science. It's a simple question. What can science offer me that is greater than everlasting life? I don't know why you couldn't have sent me a PM and gave me a answer.. Instead you opened it up for everyone to view in this thread about Green Coffee Beans and it escalated into what it has. It wasn't necessary.

    The only reason I replied back to your respones is because this is your section and I figure if you want to talk about it openly we can but I never asked for it.

    Some of your responses have appeared to be outright childish. Even the way in which you handled the question in my sig. At times you say things to sound "shocking" or "cool" as if we are in grade school. Comments such as "i think i have become a satanist actually".

    BTW.. after all has been said.. you still never answered the question. I guess some questions are best answered in silence...
    ôLord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Hmm.. How "Convenient".



    Disdain is a strong word Mr. Arnold and I will strongly deny I have a disdain for science. It's a simple question. What can science offer me that is greater than everlasting life? I don't know why you couldn't have sent me a PM and gave me a answer.. Instead you opened it up for everyone to view in this thread about Green Coffee Beans and it escalated into what it has. It wasn't necessary.

    The only reason I replied back to your respones is because this is your section and I figure if you want to talk about it openly we can but I never asked for it.

    Some of your responses have appeared to be outright childish. Even the way in which you handled the question in my sig. At times you say things to sound "shocking" or "cool" as if we are in grade school. Comments such as "i think i have become a satanist actually".

    BTW.. after all has been said.. you still never answered the question. I guess some questions are best answered in silence...

    good luck buddy.
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    The argument for those that are "believers" is that God can't be understood in the manner that we understand things like science.

    If this God is so imperceptible, how do I take messages from Him to live my life? I can acknowledge that I wonder and perhaps even hope for a higher existence and all that (the desires that lead to faith). If there is this God on a different plane of existence that has allowed all of this to occur, where do I find his will? The Bible sure isn't the place. Is the Qu'ran better? Why didn't he translate in an unbiased manner for us?

    I can say there may be something bigger than our understanding, but I'm not going to say that I have received understanding. That doesn't make any sense. I can acknowledge this being or whatever you want to call God, but I can't see how this alters my life choices.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    The argument for those that are "believers" is that God can't be understood in the manner that we understand things like science.

    If this God is so imperceptible, how do I take messages from Him to live my life? I can acknowledge that I wonder and perhaps even hope for a higher existence and all that (the desires that lead to faith). If there is this God on a different plane of existence that has allowed all of this to occur, where do I find his will? The Bible sure isn't the place. Is the Qu'ran better? Why didn't he translate in an unbiased manner for us?

    I can say there may be something bigger than our understanding, but I'm not going to say that I have received understanding. That doesn't make any sense. I can acknowledge this being or whatever you want to call God, but I can't see how this alters my life choices.
    this is part of my issue as well. I take issue with theists who repeat time and again "you cannot understand the complexities of god", but then claim "I received a vision/understanding, and I know I have everlasting life" (or something of that ilk. It is a bowl of contradictions which it seems the theist can never answer to . Very sad imo that intelligent folks would use this whole issue as a security blanket. It is like ancient man hearing thunder and saying the gods are angry. When all else fails, its god. It just downright silly.
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    It seems we've exhausted this discussion....interesting it was nonetheless....other than a few childish rants!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14
    I hate to tell you, but if you read the Qu'ran, Jesus was not the Messiah...he was a prophet, similar to Adam, Moses, David, etc... Muhammed was the final prophet as he received the final word from god.

    In terms of the crucifixion in the Qu'ran, you are correct he was not crucified. It specifically states that someone else was in his place.
    In the Qur'an Jesus is called Masih, which translates to Messiah. U must remember what messiah means. It means anointed one. Nothing more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

    some muslims say it was judas who took on jesus' face. thats what my egyptian friend in new jersey told me a long time ago

    i think their are alot of different versions in islam
    I'm not saying ur wrong, but there is room for different interpretations
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    Quote Originally Posted by diggyboo

    In the Qur'an Jesus is called Masih, which translates to Messiah. U must remember what messiah means. It means anointed one. Nothing more.
    Not in this instance. The linguistic scholars agree that it is not the Christian messiah term, it is equivalent to prophet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14

    Not in this instance. The linguistic scholars agree that it is not the Christian messiah term, it is equivalent to prophet.
    This is why the Qu'ran is only meant to be read/told in Arabic

    Wouldn't it be novel to apply that thought to Christian texts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball

    This is why the Qu'ran is only meant to be read/told in Arabic

    Wouldn't it be novel to apply that thought to Christian texts?
    Not sure I understand what you are getting at regarding Christian texts. I think the translation issue is one that is prevalent in all texts. The OT and NT have lost so much meaning over the years as a result of mistranslations it is now almost impossible to know what was originally intended.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14

    Not sure I understand what you are getting at regarding Christian texts. I think the translation issue is one that is prevalent in all texts. The OT and NT have lost so much meaning over the years as a result of mistranslations it is now almost impossible to know what was originally intended.
    Thats exactly what I'm saying. When people say "the bible says..." they don't know what the **** they're talking about.

    And anyone that has studied biblical history has to get a little rosie cheeked when they hear what the actual historical record has to say about some of these events, not to mention the arbitrary way it was all put together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    Thats exactly what I'm saying. When people say "the bible says..." they don't know what the **** they're talking about.

    And anyone that has studied biblical history has to get a little rosie cheeked when they hear what the actual historical record has to say about some of these events, not to mention the arbitrary way it was all put together.
    sorry I misunderstood. Good to see that we are on the same page
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    Just saying......

    Peace out y'all

    I'll pray for all of you

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    May I ask a question without you Atheists getting enraged?

    No disrespect/offense intended....

    Why do Atheists argue over the existence of a God so passionately?

    Christians obviously argue passionately as it's "sacred" to us.

    I will never comprehend this. It's like it stems from a deep-rooted bitterness or something.

    It's like this, my jerk neighbor was furious about the property line one time b/c I accidentally extended a mulch bed onto his side (we have odd lots, with nearly impossible triangular dimensions to know how/where the lots are defined). I laughed my butt off and said ok man, no sweat at all, I will fix it all. I didnt give a second thought and didnt even care to investigate if he was right.

    He was SO passionate about it is was hilarious. Frankly, I couldnt care less where the darn property line is! LOL

    As such, I did NOT engage AT ALL. For what it's worth, I NOW think the guy might even be wrong (as I view it from the street, I am pretttty sure the imaginary line favors MY lot)....but it is so irrelevant to me, I let it go as I figred WOW, this dude REALLLLY cares about his lot LOL

    I hope you can appreciate the analogy?

    If I did not believe there was a God, why would I give a HOOT that someone else did?
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    Anybody who has been shot at believes in God.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by wezley01 View Post
    Anybody who has been shot at believes in God.......
    That's odd.. What if you've been killed by that shot?
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    LOL threads dead, let it R.I.P
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i disagree. I dont believe in anything that is not supported by evidence. I dont fill in the gaps with faith. I just admit I dont know.

    I suppose if there is anything I have "faith" in it is that if man can develop the intellectual capacity to do so he will be able to explain the entire universe using science and reason

    Unfortunately our brains our limited by our physiology so I dont think our species will ever get to that point
    Boltzmann brain ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i disagree. I dont believe in anything that is not supported by evidence. I dont fill in the gaps with faith. I just admit I dont know.

    I suppose if there is anything I have "faith" in it is that if man can develop the intellectual capacity to do so he will be able to explain the entire universe using science and reason

    Unfortunately our brains our limited by our physiology so I dont think our species will ever get to that point
    My thoughts are similar.
    I came in here to read about green coffee beans and I see you guys are waxing philisophical.

    I'm sort of more of an agnostic. If any god wants me to recognize it then it would come to me and prove its existence similar to certain things already proven by science. Otherwise, I really do not care. I also do not recongnize the existence of karma or any similar universal justice although I can see why some do. There are studies on this but it would take me weeks to find the info again.

    Being raised by some strong southern baptists, church and relgion were a daily part of my life. However I had a couple of horrible experiences as a child that faith and prayer did not save me from and that began my path of doubt. Because nobody can tell me that an innocent kid needs to be taught a lesson like that.

    So I studied different religions, becme interested in science, met people of varying faiths and a tiny few who were atheist and agnostic.(This is part of the southern bible belt). And eventually I realized that I had no need or use for any god in my life. That the only real rule I needed to follow was to not harm others, (IE self defense, military service, and similar situations might require breaking that rule though.)

    Thing is I keep it to myself outside of message boards because I got tired of defending myself. This does not reflect on all believers but the ones I know refuse to agree to disagree. I know that some of us may always argue with religious people at every opportunity. Still others would rather not go there. But some important life discussions take it to that point.
    "I don't want anything. I don't want anybody. That's the worst part. When the want goes, that's bad."
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