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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    why have so many people who have a relationship with God done so many horrible things? They can't be good with him apparently!
    You mean people who THINK they have a relationship with God. This is what God is thinking.

    Matthew 7:21-23New International Version (NIV)

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    I will vouch for PA here. Despite his prickly online persona, in person he is a real salt of the earth kind of guy, agnostic atheist or what ever he calls himself, he is a stand up dude,
    I see no evidence to support either attribute. There is only text that is supposedly his word.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    We aren't animals. Atleast some of us

    Have we ever really been able to form a stable society and perfect things? All nations and all governments have fallen at some point.
    Actually, we are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    We know intrinsically what is right and wrong.
    Who is this we you refer to? You'd need to be living under a rock to not notice that we (as a whole) know very little about what is right and wrong. I have seen what men know to be right and wrong. Aside from your major societal rights and wrongs (those punishable by society law) there is much evidence to suggest that man knows very little to nothing about right and wrong.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    We aren't animals. Atleast some of us

    Have we ever really been able to form a stable society and perfect things? All nations and all governments have fallen at some point.
    we are animals that evolved from primates. if you dont believe that then we are far off in reaching common ground

    humans have formed remarkably stable societies and have succeeded in conquering the earth. We are, depending on how you measure it, the most successful species on this planet.

    nations and governments fall and are replaced by new ones. its part of the evolution of our society
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    if there is a god then science is the language of god. i have a spiritual side of me but i do not think that spiritual side is seperate in any way from science. it upsets me to hear people talk about science vs. god. and it upsets me when people associate science with atheism.

    my whole argument is with the dogma of organized religion. because that is anti-science. and therefore anti-god
    I agree wholeheartedly! Science is a tool for a rational mind to come to know God.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    I see no evidence to support either attribute. There is only text that is supposedly his word.

    have faith ye non-believer
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Who is this we you refer to? You'd need to be living under a rock to not notice that we (as a whole) know very little about what is right and wrong. I have seen what men know to be right and wrong. Aside from your major societal rights and wrongs (those punishable by society law) there is much evidence to suggest that man knows very little to nothing about right and wrong.
    anyone knows its wrong to steal or to kill. we know not to do to others that which we do not want done to ourselves. just like we know not to jump off a mountain or run in front of a bus

    yes there are sociopaths out there. they still know what is right and wrong but they dont care
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    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    anyone knows its wrong to steal or to kill. we know not to do to others that which we do not want done to ourselves. just like we know not to jump off a mountain or run in front of a bus

    yes there are sociopaths out there. they still know what is right and wrong but they dont care
    We seem to only acknowledge the darkest shade of wrong when there is much that is wrong to less exteme and extroverted. There is much wrong in the hearts of man that doesn't always manifest itself in these extreme behaviors - we are a nation of fatherless children and abandoned wives. We kill the unborn and the criminal and engage in quite a bit of "unfruitful" civil liberties and unions. We have lost site of what is truly right and wrong.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    We seem to only acknowledge the darkest shade of wrong when there is much that is wrong to less exteme and extroverted. There is much wrong in the hearts of man that doesn't always manifest itself in these extreme behaviors - we are a nation of fatherless children and abandoned wives. We kill the unborn and the criminal and engage in quite a bit of "unfruitful" civil liberties and unions. We have lost site of what is truly right and wrong.
    His main point is that you don't need religion to obtain morality.You need someone to guide you who has a good moral compass for life.Just how Hansel and Gretel is tale to teach children not to talk or trust strangers and not to stray from the path the Christian myth's stories could be used to help people deceipher what is right and wrong if the parents have no other means.

    Though a lot of the stories in the New Testament are moral just because they can have value for society doesn't mean therefore God exists.There will always be immoral people,whether religious or not.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Who is this we you refer to? You'd need to be living under a rock to not notice that we (as a whole) know very little about what is right and wrong. I have seen what men know to be right and wrong. Aside from your major societal rights and wrongs (those punishable by society law) there is much evidence to suggest that man knows very little to nothing about right and wrong.
    True...even great philosophers were unable to resolve this riddle. There is no right or wrong unless you, through a hierarchy. attach certain values to certain actions or intentions. But what determines what actions or intentions are given what value. If its intrinsic then what makes one person's value based system more legitimate than another's. There has to be an objective measure of right and wrong and unfortunately, or fortunately, the only objective system you have is the one provided by 'organised religion' or better term might be a revealed religion. Christianity has been around for over 2000 years, Judaism longer and the other faiths such as Buddhism and Hinduism, which go back further, share the same fundamentals. The entire history of man as we know it has had religion as its framework of right and wrong. Our morals are fundamentally no different than our ancestors, who in turn all believed in a Diety regardless of where you come from in the world. So are we saying that we take everything our ancestors and all of the human history told us about morality to be true but we disregard from where they took this truth from. They were a superstitious, ignorant folk but the morals they believed somehow lasted century after century and are a basis of our whole existence in the modern world.

    Just because you have understood some of of creation in a haphazard and partial manner and renamed it using modern 'technical' terms, doesn't mean that it was not created by some higher power. In fact if anything, it should prove His existence. A system so complex that it has taken millions of minds over centuries to only begin to decipher must be created by an overwhelming Intelligent Being.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    We seem to only acknowledge the darkest shade of wrong when there is much that is wrong to less exteme and extroverted. There is much wrong in the hearts of man that doesn't always manifest itself in these extreme behaviors - we are a nation of fatherless children and abandoned wives. We kill the unborn and the criminal and engage in quite a bit of "unfruitful" civil liberties and unions. We have lost site of what is truly right and wrong.
    Knowledge does not dictate behavior.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    why do the ten commandments resemble the morals of men? Cuz men made them up!!

    Religion is, in large part, an invention of men to help maintain order in society. We know intrinsically what is right and wrong. We made up a god to make sure that people dont stray from law and order. And to explain the scary mysteries of the unknown


    many species of animals have societies where they get along remarkably well and show generousity and compassion throughout the group. they evolved to be that way. they dont need a god.
    You've got that the wrong way round. God created man, provided him with guidance on how conduct himself and live with others and until now all previous societies understood this is as divine guidance and followed it. This is what produced stable societies....man following the word of God the best he can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    His main point is that you don't need religion to obtain morality.You need someone to guide you who has a good moral compass for life.Just how Hansel and Gretel is tale to teach children not to talk or trust strangers and not to stray from the path the Christian myth's stories could be used to help people deceipher what is right and wrong if the parents have no other means.

    Though a lot of the stories in the New Testament are moral just because they can have value for society doesn't mean therefore God exists.There will always be immoral people,whether religious or not.
    I am immoral and there is no washing that off of me. "All have fallen short." There are none righteous, not one."

    The fundamental principle of Christianity is attonment for our depraved condition (or what you call morallity) through the washing and cleansing with the sacrificial blood and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    All your morallity cannot wash the dirt of your depraved condition. We are a fallen species.

    Of course some think much more highly of themselves.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    You've got that the wrong way round. God created man, provided him with guidance on how conduct himself and live with others and until now all previous societies understand this is as divine guidance and followed it. This is what produced stable societies....man following the word of God the best he can.
    If the previous societies were so stable then why are they gone?

  16. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    I am immoral and there is no washing that off of me. "All have fallen short." There are none righteous, not one."

    The fundamental principle of Christianity is attonment for our depraved condition (or what you call morallity) through the washing and cleansing with the sacrificial blood and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    All your morallity cannot wash the dirt of your depraved condition. We are a fallen species.

    Of course some think much more highly of themselves.
    As a whole I don't believe you are immoral.I don't believe myself to be immoral,or that Patrick is or any other skeptical or religious poster in this thread.

    That little dig at me is not appreciated.We're not a fallen species.We're one that resembles all the traits of an advanced society through our evolution.As humans have advanced so has our morality and lack of it in certain individuals,as has our understanding of the world and universe.We should think highly of our species for how far we have come in such a short time.I think highly of myself and others who partake in arguments like this as it actually shows that through intellectual thought you have been affected by our existence,purpose ect.....all the major,and important questions.

    Though of course being a person in a position of power you would understand that personal attacks get you nowhere,no matter how indirect it is or how much you will more than likely deny the attack.Lets just get it straight here-you think I'm an idiot for being skeptical don't you?Lets not sugar coat this debate any more,lets just get it all out there like mature adults.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    You've got that the wrong way round. God created man, provided him with guidance on how conduct himself and live with others and until now all previous societies understood this is as divine guidance and followed it. This is what produced stable societies....man following the word of God the best he can.
    couldnt disagree more. If history has shown us anything it is that man doesnt follow one singular god, it has followed a plethora. Out of that plethora, as been a conglomeration and mixture of all the stories to create what we have today. A "melting pot" so to speak.

    There is evidence to support that even the earliest humans had rituals of significance (based on burials, etc....) but there is nothing until Zoroastrianism (or Atenism) that illustrates a "god".
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  18. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    If the previous societies were so stable then why are they gone?
    Patrick was one the one who said previous societies were remarkably stable and they went because they because they practised less and less of what the religion taught, hence the reason for another messenger being sent to re-establish these teachings.

    Another point, everything is subject to change accept God. Creation has been created to undergo change as the completely stability is the premise of only a Diety. So inevitably you will see countries, peoples and races fall and be replaced by others.
  19. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    As a whole I don't believe you are immoral.I don't believe myself to be immoral,or that Patrick is or any other skeptical or religious poster in this thread.

    That little dig at me is not appreciated.We're not a fallen species.We're one that resembles all the traits of an advanced society through our evolution.As humans have advanced so has our morality and lack of it in certain individuals,as has our understanding of the world and universe.We should think highly of our species for how far we have come in such a short time.I think highly of myself and others who partake in arguments like this as it actually shows that through intellectual thought you have been affected by our existence,purpose ect.....all the major,and important questions.

    Though of course being a person in a position of power you would understand that personal attacks get you nowhere,no matter how indirect it is or how much you will more than likely deny the attack.Lets just get it straight here-you think I'm an idiot for being skeptical don't you?Lets not sugar coat this debate any more,lets just get it all out there like mature adults.
    You have completely taken the wrong message. I think no less of you or anyone. There is no personal attach here at all whatsoever. I'll apologize for both of us that you misunderstood the sentiment of my statement.

    But I must mention that you have displyed the greater if not the greatest shortcoming (or sin depeneding upon ones inclination to negative connotations) which is pride. We pride oursleves a great deal and anything; a god, the God or religeon or the likes attempts to convict us otherwise is met with great disdain. You have displayed IMHO the wrong in whats wrong with man (not you) - a lack of humility in the sense that you truly believe that our intellect has created an evolved state of a moral, ethical and social condition.

    Again, no offense implied or otherwise intended. Simply an observation of your response to a non-specific statement that was not with ill will or intended provocation.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    we are animals that evolved from primates. if you dont believe that then we are far off in reaching common ground

    humans have formed remarkably stable societies and have succeeded in conquering the earth. We are, depending on how you measure it, the most successful species on this planet.

    nations and governments fall and are replaced by new ones. its part of the evolution of our society
    Show me the proof? I have yet to witness a ape evolve into a human. I have seen evidence of adaption. That is all though.

    The evolution theory of humans hangs on The science of dating and there is way too many flaws in dating science. You will find literature after literature that bones originally thought to be millions of years old have been reduced to mere thousands of years time.

    What's your defintion of stable? Survival?
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68
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    As I posted earlier in the thread, here is one attemp that was proven to be a fraud.
    Archaeology - Charles Dawson, Reiner Protsch von Zieten, Shinichi Fujimura

    In 1912 England, Charles Dawson had made a stunning discovery: the link between humans and primates. The so-called Piltdown man, named Eoanthropus dawsoni, was dug up by the amateur archaeologist, and had a human-sized brain compartment and ape-sized jaw. Dawson unearthed a LOT of other spectacular finds, including a previously unknown species of mammal (Plagiaulax dawsoni), three new species of dinosaur, and a new form of fossil plant, Salaginella dawsoni.

    Just 41 years later, scientists concluded it was a forgery. The human skull was just 6000 years old. And the jawbone? Orangutan. All of the fossils found at the landmark Piltdown site had been planted.

    No wonder Dawson didn't find a link - the real missing link between Neandertals and modern humans was hiding in a peat bog near Hamburg - or so said Reiner Protsch von Zieten, a German professor. Von Zieten was acclaimed for such finds as the 36,000 year old Hahnhöfersand Man, the 21,300 year old Binshof-Speyer woman, a 50 million-year-old "half-ape" called Adapis that had been found in Switzerland, and the 27,400 year old Paderborn-Sande man. His work work "appeared to prove that anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals had co-existed, and perhaps even had children together," according to the 2005 Guardian article. Oops - apparently von Zieten literally had no idea how to work the carbon dating machine. The heralded findings? H-Man: died 7,500 years ago; B-S woman (ha): died in 1300 BCE; Adapis: actually dug up in France (not sure about dates); P-S man: died in 1750.

    It's not bad enough he falsifed data and rewrote the history of anthropology. He also faked his own history - not of noble blood at all, but the son of a Nazi MP. He is tied to the shredding of documents detailing "gruesome" Nazi scientific experiments and the disappearance of heads from some of the 12,000 skeletons at the university.

    Another archaeologist, Japan's Shinichi Fujimura, can at least be excused for planting his "finds" - the devil made him do it. Or so he said when he was caught in 2000. His nickname, "God's hands," came from his uncanny ability to find prehistoric artifacts. Too bad he was caught on camera digging holes and burying objects.
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  22. This is great stuff. Thanks for sharing

  23. I suppose we are gna tie this all back into Green Coffee Bean extract?

    No? OK.

    FLAW - You misunderstand evolution. Individual organisms don't evolve - It doesn't work that way. It never has. Evolution suggests that apes and humans evolved from an as yet undiscovered common ancestor. If you read any scientific magazines/journals, you may hear about the search for "the missing link". More discoveries are being made, little by little, to support the Theory of Evolution. It's all very interesting, and I suggest that you make a concentrated effort to study it, if for no other reason than to be better prepared to defend your position.

    Personally I like Mike Alder's take on Newtonian thought: "what cannot be settled by experiment is not worth debating"

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Show me the proof? I have yet to witness a ape evolve into a human. I have seen evidence of adaption. That is all though.

    The evolution theory of humans hangs on The science of dating and there is way too many flaws in dating science. You will find literature after literature that bones originally thought to be millions of years old have been reduced to mere thousands of years time.

    What's your defintion of stable? Survival?
    :facepalm: That statement just shows you have no idea what evolutionary theory is. We did NOT come from apes. Apes and humans share a common primate ancestor.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    :facepalm: That statement just shows you have no idea what evolutionary theory is. We did NOT come from apes. Apes and humans share a common primate ancestor.
    I love when I hear people say "I ain't no monkey" to disprove evolution.
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