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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    this i can at least agree with. An agnostic says "i don't know whether there is or isn't, and don't particularly care either" where atheists have as strong a belief in the lack of a god as religious people do of the existence.
    Do I have a lack of faith, or an abundance of certainty? That's how I basically phrase these arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sidoious View Post
    Do I have a lack of faith, or an abundance of certainty? That's how I basically phrase these arguments.
    pulling out a book with an atheist scale.I'm a 6 out of 7

    De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.

    Therefore no matter how you try and rhetorize it I am an atheist.ITT theists have never studies atheism in depth whereas atheist have studies theism in depth.Always the trend I'm afraid to say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Remember and atheist is logical
    According to who? Not a Christian

    That's akin to saying my Christian views are logical and not expecting the same rebuttal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Nope.YOu can be an atheist and still logically feel that despite being nearly 100% sure that there is no God.
    Not according to Webster's Dictionary. That word "nearly" makes you a FULL-FLEDGED AGNOSTIC. Sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    I cannot prove there is not a God therefore I must hold my conviction that there is no God but remain skeptical all at the same time.
    You don't HAVE to do anything. WHO's rules are you following? Since you admittedly can't prove anything, you are faced with 3 options, not one. God exists, GOd doesnt exist, God might exist. No one's holding your hand to the fire and forcing a position of Atheism (NO POSSIBILITY OF GOD)
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    You have an abundance of certainty? In what? The non-existence of God?

    Based on WHAT?

    Quote Originally Posted by sidoious View Post
    Do I have a lack of faith, or an abundance of certainty? That's how I basically phrase these arguments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    While I can genuinely appreciate the frustration of an Atheist trying to comprehend what seems to be the incomprehensible, what you must understand is that to a Christian, our minds cannot grasp the boundadries or workings of what we consider ot be an infinte God. That said, a devout Atheist denouncing the possibility for the existence of a God MUST provide an intelligent argument based on finite wisdom since we are finite beings.

    Again not a cop out, or a delflection, just framing our point of view.
    This is where the whole discussion becomes circular and we are back to square one. The last couple of pages have boiled down to basically:

    Believers- Prove we're wrong.

    Non-believers- Prove you're right.

    Neither of these are going to happen, no one's "demands" will become satisfied. We're arguing the same thing that our ancestors argued and likely what our children will argue. And it is doubtful in anyone on this boards lifetime that proof for either side becomes clear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    According to who? Not a Christian

    That's akin to saying my Christian views are logical and not expecting the same rebuttal.

    You believe without evidence.Not exactly logical

    Not according to Webster's Dictionary. That word "nearly" makes you a FULL-FLEDGED AGNOSTIC. Sorry

    I'm sorry sir but your still wrong according to my actual definition that I listed.


    You don't HAVE to do anything. WHO's rules are you following? Since you admittedly can't prove anything, you are faced with 3 options, not one. God exists, GOd doesnt exist, God might exist. No one's holding your hand to the fire and forcing a position of Atheism (NO POSSIBILITY OF GOD)
    Rules of logic.It's not logical to believe in a God if I have no proof.I can believe in evolution due to their being evidence.God=not a single shred.THough I cannot disprove it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    You have an abundance of certainty? In what? The non-existence of God?

    Based on WHAT?
    yes.Based on a lack of evidence and the many myths that man has created.

    Which God do you follow?

    I would wager that it's the Christian God.

    You have certianty that the Roman and Grecian Gods are not the true Gods.Therefore oyu understand my point of view and accept it fully correct?

    For some reason the answer is a recurring no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    This is where the whole discussion becomes circular and we are back to square one. The last couple of pages have boiled down to basically:

    Believers- Prove we're wrong.

    Non-believers- Prove you're right.

    Neither of these are going to happen, no one's "demands" will become satisfied. We're arguing the same thing that our ancestors argued and likely what our children will argue. And it is doubtful in anyone on this boards lifetime that proof for either side becomes clear.
    THe thing is the burden of proof falls to the believer as they make claims that they cannot back up with evidence,just more rhetoric as to why I believe differently.It's unprovable but fun to debate.

    All believers who try and use the prove me wronbg argument look at this
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    Btw will a theist answer my question about their religion and the correlation to geography?Is it that hard to answer?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    so you had a vision. but while other peoples visions (like the son of sam, mohammed, charles manson) are delusional, yours is real. Because you know it to be real. Its all starting to make sense to me now
    Nope no vision. I've never had a vision. Ironically my belief in God is based upon rational thought. Difficult maybe for you to digest, but there are many like me. Rational, scientific individuals who also believe in God!
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    Nope no vision. I've never had a vision. Ironically my belief in God is based upon rational thought. Difficult maybe for you to digest, but there are many like me. irRational, scientific individuals who also believe in God!
    Fixed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    THe thing is the burden of proof falls to the believer as they make claims that they cannot back up with evidence,just more rhetoric as to why I believe differently.It's unprovable but fun to debate.

    All believers who try and use the prove me wronbg argument look at this
    When you are asked to prove that evolved from mere organic buildings blocks into the complex organisms that we are you too are unable to do so. You literally have nothing other than making statements like we share common DNA with the rest of the animal kingdom. That isn't an argument for evolution any more than you can say that a building has evolved from a tree because they share some common materials.

    You talk about myths in the bible and forgeries...how about all the data and discoveries the scientists have forged in attempting to fill the gaping gaps in the current theory of evolution.

    If you subjected your theory of evolution to the same strict empirical standards that you subject the theory of God and creationism it too would fail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Fixed
    That's just childish and immature. But I should expect that kind of hysteria and ignorance from a militant atheist.
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    Ever notice that creationists look really unevolved? You believe god created you in 6 days? Looks like he rushed it!

    Paraphrased from bill hicks.

    I kid I kid!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    That's just childish and immature. But I should expect that kind of hysteria and ignorance from a militant atheist.
    lol militant.By using logic I am militant and ignorant ..............mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmk ay

    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    When you are asked to prove that evolved from mere organic buildings blocks into the complex organisms that we are you too are unable to do so. You literally have nothing other than making statements like we share common DNA with the rest of the animal kingdom. That isn't an argument for evolution any more than you can say that a building has evolved from a tree because they share some common materials.

    You talk about myths in the bible and forgeries...how about all the data and discoveries the scientists have forged in attempting to fill the gaping gaps in the current theory of evolution.

    If you subjected your theory of evolution to the same strict empirical standards that you subject the theory of God and creationism it too would fail.
    Science has forged certain things,evolution is not 100% foolproof...........therefore God.Are you ripping the piss?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    lol militant.By using logic I am militant..............mmmmmmmm mmmmmmmkay



    Science has forged certain things,evolution is not 100% foolproof...........therefore God.Are you ripping the piss?
    Geez...what is with you?! And you call yourself rational and logical. From all the contributors to this thread I have to say you are the least rational person of all. My point is this......you call theists irrational for believing in something they cannot prove, but you yourself believe in something that you cannot prove, so you by the same rationale are irrational for if you are not then neither are the theists. I'm not saying that you lack of proof for evolution proves the existence of God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    Geez...what is with you?! And you call yourself rational and logical. From all the contributors to this thread I have to say you are the least rational person of all. My point is this......you call theists irrational for believing in something they cannot prove, but you yourself believe in something that you cannot prove, so you by the same rationale are irrational for if you are not then neither are the theists. I'm not saying that you lack of proof for evolution proves the existence of God.
    That is not the distinction I have made.Go back to page 7 and work your way back up to this point.Its irrational to believe without proof but also equally as irrational to discount the other side.A theist who knows there is God is as irrational as an atheist who knows there is not a God.I am neither,I merely have a very strong supposition that there is no God.

    As for me being irrational,I lol'd/You very mad at my logic aren't you.I know a sh1tstrom would brew once I let loose in this thread.This insult was long coming.

    There is a lack of proof is osme areas of evolution but an overwhelming amount for its general idea.

    Now I ask you this seeing as you have clearly not read all of my posts as you claim.

    Is it irrational to beleive without proof or to not believe but always have a logical possibility that you are wrong despite what you inherently feel?

    Btw if you did read the thread you would realsie I have answered this 100 times already
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    So....have anyone's fundamental beliefs changed as a result of this thread?
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    So....have anyone's fundamental beliefs changed as a result of this thread?
    LOL Probably not!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Rules of logic.It's not logical to believe in a God if I have no proof.I can believe in evolution due to their being evidence.God=not a single shred.THough I cannot disprove it.
    what proof do you have of quasars, protons, neutrons? Other people have told you they have seen them. Just like prophets tell people they have seen god. Or they show you math you can't understand and you have to take it on faith they are correct.
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    Yeah, great point

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    This is where the whole discussion becomes circular and we are back to square one. The last couple of pages have boiled down to basically:

    Believers- Prove we're wrong.

    Non-believers- Prove you're right.

    Neither of these are going to happen, no one's "demands" will become satisfied. We're arguing the same thing that our ancestors argued and likely what our children will argue. And it is doubtful in anyone on this boards lifetime that proof for either side becomes clear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    So....have anyone's fundamental beliefs changed as a result of this thread?
    I have begun to worship the bean that is green. It has demonstrably been proven that we are a result of this bean that is green. The bean that is green brought us to be, controls us, and also makes us skinny.

    The skinny part is up for debate. We don't know for sure that the bean that is green makes us skinny. It's what we're trying to figure out.

    Also, coffee.

    That should make as much sense as most of the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    Ironically my belief in God is based upon rational thought. Difficult maybe for you to digest, but there are many like me.
    Actually, that's an understatement. 2/3rd's of the world agree with you to be exact

    That said, I am not asserting that a majority position equates to correctness.

    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    Rational, scientific individuals who also believe in God!
    Yup. People who are so intelligent, none of us could even hold a conversation with them
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    That is not the distinction I have made.Go back to page 7 and work your way back up to this point.Its irrational to believe without proof but also equally as irrational to discount the other side.A theist who knows there is God is as irrational as an atheist who knows there is not a God.I am neither,I merely have a very strong supposition that there is no God.

    As for me being irrational,I lol'd/You very mad at my logic aren't you.I know a sh1tstrom would brew once I let loose in this thread.This insult was long coming.

    There is a lack of proof is osme areas of evolution but an overwhelming amount for its general idea.

    Now I ask you this seeing as you have clearly not read all of my posts as you claim.

    Is it irrational to beleive without proof or to not believe but always have a logical possibility that you are wrong despite what you inherently feel?

    Btw if you did read the thread you would realsie I have answered this 100 times already
    I apologise for not reading all your posts before responding to your post. You have a view made on your internal logic as have I in the absence of empirical evidence. My rational analysis from what I see around me points to a Creator. Now my rationality also tell me why I won't have direct proof of God and by that I mean direct perception of God using one of my five sense because that would entail that God be created because my sense only perceive created things and God is uncreated so this cannot be.

    For a rational person once he or she believes in a Creator it naturally take them down a particular path. You then start to question why God created man and this in itself leads down a particular path and either your belief is further strengthened by indrect proofs or you find nothing and leave it as it is. The point is the whole process is rational and it has lead to different outcomes for different individuals based upon what they understood from what they found. C.S. Lewis was an atheist until his friend JR Tolkien convinced him through logical argument that there is a God.

    Do you believe anything? If so, what? What are your guiding principles? Where have you taken these from?
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    Nail on head


    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    Geez...what is with you?! And you call yourself rational and logical. From all the contributors to this thread I have to say you are the least rational person of all. My point is this......you call theists irrational for believing in something they cannot prove, but you yourself believe in something that you cannot prove, so you by the same rationale are irrational for if you are not then neither are the theists. I'm not saying that you lack of proof for evolution proves the existence of God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Nail on head
    Or in wrists and feet.
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    Yup. True Dat. Thank God for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who paid the price for all of humanity. All you have to do is lose the ego and accept the price He already paid.

    ~ 75 years is a short time on the Earth. Eternity is .....well...........forever.

    Remind me not to ever place the same bets as you. This one's gonna leave a mark!

    God bless ya buddy. I'll pray for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by sidoious View Post
    Or in wrists and feet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    I apologise for not reading all your posts before responding to your post. You have a view made on your internal logic as have I in the absence of empirical evidence. My rational analysis from what I see around me points to a Creator. Now my rationality also tell me why I won't have direct proof of God and by that I mean direct perception of God using one of my five sense because that would entail that God be created because my sense only perceive created things and God is uncreated so this cannot be.

    For a rational person once he or she believes in a Creator it naturally take them down a particular path. You then start to question why God created man and this in itself leads down a particular path and either your belief is further strengthened by indrect proofs or you find nothing and leave it as it is. The point is the whole process is rational and it has lead to different outcomes for different individuals based upon what they understood from what they found. C.S. Lewis was an atheist until his friend JR Tolkien convinced him through logical argument that there is a God.

    Do you believe anything? If so, what? What are your guiding principles? Where have you taken these from?
    Now that you have explained your beliefs,though I don't agree I can respect them.It is really not that hard.I will never agree as I beleive there is only the physical realm but there we have it you have your stance I have mine.

    Why bolster your claim however by citing two great men who happened to result in one being converted.Is it a major breakthrough?No.People convert all the time.

    Do i believe in anything.That is a silly question isn't it.It's a rhetorical question but if it pertains to God then no.
    I was raised loosely Catholic due to my schooling and my society.Yet I never heeded the 10 commandment.In fact as silly as it sounds I never went to mass when I was Catholic.Yet my moral barometer was in tune no matter what.I intrinsically know that it is wrong to kill,steal,take another mans woman ect.....

    I know where you trying to go but no.Your going along a dangerous line of absolutes.There must be a source for guiding principles therefore someone must have started these principles.That is not logical.Monkey have intrinsic value and instincts.They care for their sick and wounded,help each other,oftentimes go to war.

    Morality,which I have already explained my beliefs around page 9ish ,is not learned(though it is enforced by adults)it is a part of our condition,whether religious or not.Though I can see why religions moral values can positively influence a society.As can fairy tales like Hansel and Gretel for the purpose of tellign children not to talk to strangers.

    I know you guys are trying to call an idiot but I genuinely calue different opinions no matter what I believe.Take it as you will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Nail on head
    It's nice to see some kind of group bonding between the theists.Sweet isn't it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Yup. True Dat. Thank God for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who paid the price for all of humanity. All you have to do is lose the ego and accept the price He already paid.

    ~ 75 years is a short time on the Earth. Eternity is .....well...........forever.

    Remind me not to ever place the same bets as you. This one's gonna leave a mark!

    God bless ya buddy. I'll pray for you.
    and if you were born in Palestine you would be praising Allah.Funny isn't it how religion is based on geography.Maybe Allah or Krishna is the true God.But of course you know Jesus is the real deal and how can I aruge with a non-evident claim.
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    May I ask a question without you Atheists getting enraged?

    No disrespect/offense intended....

    Why do Atheists argue over the existence of a God so passionately?

    Christians obviously argue passionately as it's "sacred" to us.

    I will never comprehend this. It's like it stems from a deep-rooted bitterness or something.

    It's like this, my jerk neighbor was furious about the property line one time b/c I accidentally extended a mulch bed onto his side (we have odd lots, with nearly impossible triangular dimensions to know how/where the lots are defined). I laughed my butt off and said ok man, no sweat at all, I will fix it all. I didnt give a second thought and didnt even care to investigate if he was right.

    He was SO passionate about it is was hilarious. Frankly, I couldnt care less where the darn property line is! LOL

    As such, I did NOT engage AT ALL. For what it's worth, I NOW think the guy might even be wrong (as I view it from the street, I am pretttty sure the imaginary line favors MY lot)....but it is so irrelevant to me, I let it go as I figred WOW, this dude REALLLLY cares about his lot LOL

    I hope you can appreciate the analogy?

    If I did not believe there was a God, why would I give a HOOT that someone else did?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Waiting for this geneticisit friend of Patrick's.
    .
    His response for me was

    "i dont argue with flat earthers"

    my friend has more important things to do, like getting papers published in Nature and discovering that there are two species of elephants in africa (using that false science known as genetics)
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    Quote Originally Posted by sidoious View Post
    Much like religion.
    ouch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    THe thing is the burden of proof falls to the believer as they make claims that they cannot back up with evidence,just more rhetoric as to why I believe differently.It's unprovable but fun to debate.

    All believers who try and use the prove me wronbg argument look at this

    thats a good video and is quite relevant to what is going on here

    I dont expect the religious people to change their opinion but to continue to try desperately to defend their opinion using completely flawed argument strategies. I feel sad for them, as I believe they think are doing the right thing. It must be very hard to question that which you have come to accept as so central to your being
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    Nope no vision. I've never had a vision. Ironically my belief in God is based upon rational thought. Difficult maybe for you to digest, but there are many like me. Rational, scientific individuals who also believe in God!
    you appear to have completely contradicted your earlier statements
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    When you are asked to prove that evolved from mere organic buildings blocks into the complex organisms that we are you too are unable to do so. You literally have nothing other than making statements like we share common DNA with the rest of the animal kingdom. That isn't an argument for evolution any more than you can say that a building has evolved from a tree because they share some common materials.
    l.
    no one here is going to give you an explanation of the theory of evolution because it is so grand a subject it would require hundreds of hundreds of pages of text. thousands and thousands. you are starting to really annoy me with this line of attack

    why dont you start here. this appears to be pretty accurate

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    So....have anyone's fundamental beliefs changed as a result of this thread?

    i think i have become a satanist actually
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    what proof do you have of quasars, protons, neutrons? Other people have told you they have seen them. Just like prophets tell people they have seen god. Or they show you math you can't understand and you have to take it on faith they are correct.
    true, all these physicists might be lying. we may never have landed on the moon and bin laden may still be alive

    the earth may be flat. i mean, i havent circumvented it nor have i experienced space travel
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