Ecdysterone yes or no?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    Would ecdy be a good product for a 5x5 type style program (or even 531 by Wendler)? Bill Starr's 5x5 for example, if you are familiar with it.
    Generally speaking, no. I'm going to caveat that though, by saying that for an adaptogen like Ecdy to work optimally - there needs to be a rather profound environmental stress, to adapt to. In the absence of that, adaptogens perform sub-optimally. You also needn't go over-board on the protein, like so many companies will recommend with Ecdy. Fact of the matter is, Ecdy's glucose disposal (and other) properties are as prominent - if not moreso than its effect on protein synthesis.

    In the right formula, you can leverage ALL that Ecdy has to offer. For the record, it offers a LOT. Take a gander... See PDF in particular section 7:

    http://ecdybase.org/index.php?&action=ecdyeffects


    "Effects on vertebrates, including mammals
    1. Effects of exogenous ecdysteroids
    2. Ecdysteroid metabolism in mammals

    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick

    Generally speaking, no. I'm going to caveat that though, by saying that for an adaptogen like Ecdy to work optimally - there needs to be a rather profound environmental stress, to adapt to. In the absence of that, adaptogens perform sub-optimally. You also needn't go over-board on the protein, like so many companies will recommend with Ecdy. Fact of the matter is, Ecdy's glucose disposal (and other) properties are as prominent - if not moreso than its effect on protein synthesis.

    In the right formula, you can leverage ALL that Ecdy has to offer. For the record, it offers a LOT. Take a gander... See PDF in particular section 7:

    http://ecdybase.org/index.php?&action=ecdyeffects

    "Effects on vertebrates, including mammals
    [*]Effects of exogenous ecdysteroids[*]Ecdysteroid metabolism in mammals
    Tart Cherry Juice with Synthagen....BOOM!!
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by southsideguy View Post
    Tart Cherry Juice with Synthagen....BOOM!!
    Yeah, it's quite the experience. When I put Synthagen to the test though, I did so in a unique fashion - did everything I could, to subvert the product. Yep, brought protein DOWN to under 75g/day for weeks at a time. Then brought calories way below maintenance. Deliberately tried to over-train, etc.. I still gained in the gym/lost no muscle. That's when I knew it was ready.

    Little wonder then, the slew of positive reviews that have been coming in. The latest was just one such case. He had been ravaged by life, I guess you could say. Here's what went down..

    Mattlaw30



    Joined: 30 Apr 2011
    Posts: 10
    Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 1:29 pm Post subject:

    "This product is amazing. In the last month I have been getting over a cold and stressed out beyond belief due to work. Not sleeping or eating well. My body is probably swimming in cortisol. Despite all of this I have been able to workout and make gains using Synthagen; 5 caps before workout, 5 after and 2 in the morning on off days. Visually my shoulders look different. Wider and you can see striations. I love this product..."

    So enough about Synthagen... :-) Here's a relevant question - why don't more companies try doing this, prior to bringing a product to market?

    As I sit here thinking about it, the BEST products I ever used were ones that seemingly made things "failsafe". You know, they had that eerie similarity to androgens insofar as their ability to make up for certain dietary/training or lifestyle faux pas - and you still did well on them. I'm not talking about gross offenses here, like eating at McDonald's every day or partying until 2AM every night. Just the "life happens" stuff.

    Dunno. It just seems to me that it's a good way to go about putting XYZ product to the test.
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  4. ^^^ So your saying volume is the way to go to induce the stress or something like super & drop sets?
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  5. Oh no!. No free use allowed!

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Yeah, it's quite the experience. When I put Synthagen to the test though, I did so in a unique fashion - did everything I could, to subvert the product. Yep, brought protein DOWN to under 75g/day for weeks at a time. Then brought calories way below maintenance. Deliberately tried to over-train, etc.. I still gained in the gym/lost no muscle. That's when I knew it was ready.

    Little wonder then, the slew of positive reviews that have been coming in. The latest was just one such case. He had been ravaged by life, I guess you could say. Here's what went down..

    Mattlaw30



    Joined: 30 Apr 2011
    Posts: 10
    Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 1:29 pm Post subject:

    "This product is amazing. In the last month I have been getting over a cold and stressed out beyond belief due to work. Not sleeping or eating well. My body is probably swimming in cortisol. Despite all of this I have been able to workout and make gains using Synthagen; 5 caps before workout, 5 after and 2 in the morning on off days. Visually my shoulders look different. Wider and you can see striations. I love this product..."

    So enough about Synthagen... :-) Here's a relevant question - why don't more companies try doing this, prior to bringing a product to market?

    As I sit here thinking about it, the BEST products I ever used were ones that seemingly made things "failsafe". You know, they had that eerie similarity to androgens insofar as their ability to make up for certain dietary/training or lifestyle faux pas - and you still did well on them. I'm not talking about gross offenses here, like eating at McDonald's every day or partying until 2AM every night. Just the "life happens" stuff.

    Dunno. It just seems to me that it's a good way to go about putting XYZ product to the test.
    you do have me wanting to try synthagen now....

    I think though there are a few reasons that doesn't happen often. For one of course, the supplement companies that are in the advertising in magazines you read, sponsoring serious athletes, etc are in business to make money. Effectiveness of a product often comes quite secondary to ability to sell and make a profit. The less cynical reason is that since they do compete against each other, they have to try and release things rapidly and make changes rapidly to keep from falling behind with their competitors.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Thunder1 View Post
    ^^^ So your saying volume is the way to go to induce the stress or something like super & drop sets?
    Not necessarily, no. My point being, when you combine known "negatives" that adversely affect your training (like over-training, too little sleep, sub-maintenance protein/calories to support growth, etc.), it will oftentimes illustrate the efficacy (or lack thereof) of a nutraceutical/supplement. Picture the above scenario with and without the product. When you're in this environment and NOT using the product, your training seems futile.

    When you ARE using the product, you're still getting stronger, going longer and recovering FAST. That's when you know you have something with potential. On the other end of the spectrum, you take the guy who's doing everything right - he's likely going to make gains with or without the product. When the product is added, it's a lot tougher to decipher if gains are above and beyond those of training supplement free.

    Granted, it's not a university study with DEXA scans, bloodwork etc - but as a practical, "real world" test, I rather favor it. Besides, you'd have to be loaded to fund a study like that. Even if results were stellar (and legit), you're going to get cold water thrown on it b/c you (the person selling the product), funded the study.

    Catch - 22...
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  8. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    you do have me wanting to try synthagen now....

    I think though there are a few reasons that doesn't happen often. For one of course, the supplement companies that are in the advertising in magazines you read, sponsoring serious athletes, etc are in business to make money. Effectiveness of a product often comes quite secondary to ability to sell and make a profit. The less cynical reason is that since they do compete against each other, they have to try and release things rapidly and make changes rapidly to keep from falling behind with their competitors.
    You make great points. It just blows my mind that product efficacy comes second to hiring an ad agency, getting some juiced up pro to endorse it and gearing up for methyl 2-test, because methyl 1-test was so "last month".

    In my mind, the true test is as follows...

    1.) The product generates repeat buys, over a decade or more
    2.) The product doesn't need much advertising - it sells itself through word of mouth

    I keep seeing "new"! New doesn't mean better. Better is better....
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    You make great points. It just blows my mind that product efficacy comes second to hiring an ad agency, getting some juiced up pro to endorse it and gearing up for methyl 2-test, because methyl 1-test was so "last month".

    In my mind, the true test is as follows...

    1.) The product generates repeat buys, over a decade or more
    2.) The product doesn't need much advertising - it sells itself through word of mouth

    I keep seeing "new"! New doesn't mean better. Better is better....

    I'm old so I don't have time to wait over a decade. What you say in this post makes sense though.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I'm old so I don't have time to wait over a decade. What you say in this post makes sense though.
    Thank you.

    I didn't mean to suggest waiting that long, just an observation on my part. The test of time is most telling. I like flipping through old musclemags from years ago. 99% of the "hot" products then, aren't around today. A scant few are. Those are the ones I look further into, trying to understand why...
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  11. Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I'm old so I don't have time to wait over a decade. What you say in this post makes sense though.
    you're not old, I am old
    E-PHARM Nutrition Representative
    Better one ugly truth than a million pretty lies
    Check Out Ur-Spray and D-Serine at Prototype Nutrition




  12. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    You make great points. It just blows my mind that product efficacy comes second to hiring an ad agency, getting some juiced up pro to endorse it and gearing up for methyl 2-test, because methyl 1-test was so "last month".

    In my mind, the true test is as follows...

    1.) The product generates repeat buys, over a decade or more
    2.) The product doesn't need much advertising - it sells itself through word of mouth

    I keep seeing "new"! New doesn't mean better. Better is better....
    well, there are a few other parts too as well. in general in sports nutrition now, particularly considering the volume of obesity research a dedcade isn't relevant. The understanding of relatively simple processes and what affects them changes sometimes drammatically in that time. Also, although the no advertising/word of mouth is nice, there is definitely a serious income limitation on that. That doesn't sound relevant, but for the sake of the argument say you want to start some free childhood obesity programs for schools. doing something national just to start it could cost into the hundreds of thousands. You can't make that very easily on word of mouth.

    sure, new doesn't mean better, but neither does old mean better so if you aren't watching what is new, and potentially incorporating it, you may be doing your customers a disservice. Not saying you are, but that the possibility exists.


    btw an interesting article on the tart cherry juice. How long does a bottle of synthagen last? and do you have many/any users who happened to be on TRT using it? just wondering in terms of effectiveness.

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/conte...ry-juice-1448/

  13. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    well, there are a few other parts too as well. in general in sports nutrition now, particularly considering the volume of obesity research a dedcade isn't relevant. The understanding of relatively simple processes and what affects them changes sometimes drammatically in that time. Also, although the no advertising/word of mouth is nice, there is definitely a serious income limitation on that. That doesn't sound relevant, but for the sake of the argument say you want to start some free childhood obesity programs for schools. doing something national just to start it could cost into the hundreds of thousands. You can't make that very easily on word of mouth.

    sure, new doesn't mean better, but neither does old mean better so if you aren't watching what is new, and potentially incorporating it, you may be doing your customers a disservice. Not saying you are, but that the possibility exists.


    btw an interesting article on the tart cherry juice. How long does a bottle of synthagen last? and do you have many/any users who happened to be on TRT using it? just wondering in terms of effectiveness.

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/conte...ry-juice-1448/

    I appreciate your commentary/perspective. I do my absolute best, to stay current with the research as well as the "tried and true" stuff. Insofar as the marketing end of things, that's admittedly not my niche. Nor is the bottling, fulfillment/distribution - which is why I elected to private label it, so to speak. I know what my strengths are (and aren't), LOL.

    With respect to Synthagen - A bottle will last most folks almost a month. MANY are doing terrific on just 5 caps, twice a day for a total of 10 caps/day. It's the timing of administration, that need only be dialed in. Pre/post workout on training days is the slam dunk, as is just prior to your largest meal(s) of the day. For some curious reason (I admittedly don't know why - yet), it has a rather profound ability to help you digest a LOT of food, in one sitting. One other note: Someone on my board posted a rather riveting piece about the carcinogens sprayed on non-organic cherries. Fortunately, I always buy the organic cherry juice. I normally see this type of info as too "scare tactic" like, but he's one sharp guy, and posted plenty of backup to make his case.

    Finally, I do have a handful of folks using Synthagen with HRT but not Thyroid Replacement Therapy (assuming that's what you meant, by TRT). I'd surmise it would help with the catabolism thyroid hormones (generally) impart, but being honest - that's speculation on my part. I CAN tell you, "it really shines on a cut..." type commentary keeps showing up, a LOT. This would only make sense, given the ingredient profile and what it "puts back", insofar as cellular energy substrates, proposed MOA etc.

    BEST EXAMPLE: pmartinez78

    pmartinez78 wrote:

    "Well I finished my 1st bottle of MPS this Saturday. In 3 weeks of using MPS, I lost 2lbs, lost 1% bf, and lost 1 inch off my waist where I have the last bit of fat. There was no muscle gains nor any muscle loss either.

    Now again, keep in mind that I did not follow any diet plan and did not count calories either. I stayed fasted till after 6pm and pretty much ate whatever I wanted. If I have to guess, I'd say my calorie intake was around 60% on a daily basis. No other suppliment was used other than MPS.

    Overall I'm pretty impressed with MPS. It allowed me to go strong in the gym even in a fasted state. It allowed me to eat whatever I wanted in the evening and still lose bf and it completely eliminated DOMS after the first week. I haven't been sore since then..."

    In the spirit of staying on topic, I think this thread provided evidence of Ecdy's potential as a non-hormonal adaptogenic/therapeutic agent. It's far from "mystery solved", but there's clearly something going on for many users. Whether or not it passes your personal cost/benefit ratio test, I suppose only you can answer...
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post

    With respect to Synthagen -
    After looking at BP collective it looks very interesting. Can you post a pic of the lable? I couldn't seem to find one on Musclemass. Also, is currently sold out? ETA on more?

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Cool View Post
    After looking at BP collective it looks very interesting. Can you post a pic of the lable? I couldn't seem to find one on Musclemass. Also, is currently sold out? ETA on more?
    Factory fresh Synthagen ships out to MASS on Monday, which means they'll likely have it in stock Thursday/Friday. He's taking pre-orders now, and it's first come first served. Now I know you've heard about possible shortages before, but that did in fact happen after the first two production runs were gobbled up. This run is larger though, and geared to the official launch - so hopefully no "out of stock" issues for awhile.

    Tried attaching a graphic of the label, but it wouldn't take. Here's a link to my FB page, which displays what's in Mass Pro Synthagen. Mods, I hope this is OK. If not please let me know and I'll remove it immediately...

    Rob Regish | Facebook
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick

    Factory fresh Synthagen ships out to MASS on Monday, which means they'll likely have it in stock Thursday/Friday. He's taking pre-orders now, and it's first come first served. Now I know you've heard about possible shortages before, but that did in fact happen after the first two production runs were gobbled up. This run is larger though, and geared to the official launch - so hopefully no "out of stock" issues for awhile.

    Tried attaching a graphic of the label, but it wouldn't take. Here's a link to my FB page, which displays what's in Mass Pro Synthagen. Mods, I hope this is OK. If not please let me know and I'll remove it immediately...

    Rob Regish | Facebook
    Black and white capsules on these batches?

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Thanks that was I looking for. On another note, any idea why the I-force ecdy seemed to underwhelm so much?

  18. Quote Originally Posted by southsideguy View Post
    Black and white capsules on these batches?
    Yes indeed...
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Cool View Post
    Thanks that was I looking for. On another note, any idea why the I-force ecdy seemed to underwhelm so much?
    They used the right source genus (Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract), but over-standardized for 20-Hydroxyecdysterone. As I've stated many times, this is a mistake - albeit an understandable one. I surmise they looked at the literature (which is heavy on 20-H), and determined this was the correct Ecdysterone to utilize. It is not, especially orally.

    There are now 463 identified ecdysteroids (see link), of 20-H is just one. More are being discovered every day. The gold standard IMO, is the full spectrum of ecdysteroids (variously referred to as the "levseins complex", in the former Soviet literature), from RCE. They're a grouping of 10 specific ecdysteroids in a very precise ratio, which impart unique benefits. I call it retaining "natures fingerprint".

    It's for this reason, that I included "full spectrum" RCE in Synthagen. The feedback you will find on Synthagen, speaks for itself.

    http://ecdybase.org/
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    It's for this reason, that I included "full spectrum" RCE in Synthagen. The feedback you will find on Synthagen, speaks for itself.

    http://ecdybase.org/
    Yea I'm pretty much sold. Now I just gotta go sell some plasma or sperm or something

  21. i would like to share.. i recently used LGs sublingual substerone and Natadrol both double dosed..currently using the body opus diet i gained and incredible amount of strength and size. i put 10 lbs on in 4 weeks but mostly because the subtle yet obvious increase in hunger.. yet i stayed under maintence every single day... i acheived several PRs and had quite possibly the best recovery ive seen next to using anabolics..

    haveing some past good experience with ecdys i would have to say that LGs actually delivered quite well and i would truely recomend it for people to try... keep in mind i doubled the recomended doses and i stacked with natadrol.. so you can take that for what its worth.. i have no prior experience with natadrol so i can not say if it did or didnt contribute.. i can say tho the classic discription mixel mentioned about ecdy and its benifits, for me atleast, are very very real.

    after reading this entire thread i will be adding ecdy to my next hormone cycle as well!

  22. It is great to see minds opening up to the possibilities of Ecdy, because IMO - the benefits ARE real. An incredible piece of Mass Pro Synthagen feedback was emailed to me today. I obtained his permission to use his real name/feedback:

    DAVE ROBICHAUD
    San Luis Obispo, CA.


    "Hi Rob, so I've used the Synthagen now for a total of 12 days. Wanted to wait to see if I was imagining anything. How did u do it? Never used anything except for deca and anadrol that made such a difference in how I feel related to the recovery process. Can I buy stock in it? ha! congratulations.."

    His words, not mine. Nor is Synthagen the only Ecdy based product out there, of course. It's just great to see those willing to give Substerone, Ebol etc. a chance. Because I can confidently say this: Ecdysterone products are light years more effective than they were just 5 years ago, thanks in large part to superior sourcing, brighter minds and a more thorough understanding of Ecdy's vast array of benefits.

    Things only get better, from here...
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  23. Woah 12 pages....what have i done!?
    "No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training...what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable." - Socrates

  24. Quote Originally Posted by xR1pp3Rx View Post
    i would like to share.. i recently used LGs sublingual substerone and Natadrol both double dosed..currently using the body opus diet i gained and incredible amount of strength and size. i put 10 lbs on in 4 weeks but mostly because the subtle yet obvious increase in hunger.. yet i stayed under maintence every single day... i acheived several PRs and had quite possibly the best recovery ive seen next to using anabolics..

    haveing some past good experience with ecdys i would have to say that LGs actually delivered quite well and i would truely recomend it for people to try... keep in mind i doubled the recomended doses and i stacked with natadrol.. so you can take that for what its worth.. i have no prior experience with natadrol so i can not say if it did or didnt contribute.. i can say tho the classic discription mixel mentioned about ecdy and its benifits, for me atleast, are very very real.

    after reading this entire thread i will be adding ecdy to my next hormone cycle as well!
    I have used Natadrol on it's own and alongside Substerone (as part of a sponsored stack log). For me the results on Natadrol were on par with the results stacking with Substerone. I would purchase the Natadrol with my own money but would not use it on Substerone again.
    PEScience Representative
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com

  25. Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I would purchase the Natadrol with my own money but would not use it on Substerone again.
    Care to elaborate on your training/diet while using? Seems to be the key, and not just conventional "train hard and eat well".

  26. Sure, here is everything in detail.

    anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/190993-bdccs-lg-sciences.html
    PEScience Representative
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Cool View Post
    Yea I'm pretty much sold. Now I just gotta go sell some plasma or sperm or something
    It's was in stock and shipped last Friday. The response/re-order rate for Mass Pro Synthagen has been so great, MASS just ordered back up and 2 more runs from the lab.

    Now for anyone interested, DAVE ROBICHAUD (who favorably compared Synthagen's recovery properties to Deca and Anadrol), will be on SHR this coming Tuesday. NOTE: This wasn't at my request, he apparently called the SHR studio to express how happy he was with the product. I know we've ALL heard this before, "miracle supplement finally here...".

    I'm not here to proclaim it a miracle, but simply state that it's worthy of your consideration. It has been called a "game changer"/"revolutionary" and "the single best supplement I have ever used...". These are REAL people's words, not mine. Rather than take my word for it, I'd encourage you to speak to ANYONE who's used Synthagen - or listen to Dave to see if it's right for you.

    I'll also be the first to tell you the FUNDAMENTALS of training, diet, rest etc. will ALWAYS trump ANY supplement - including mine. That's just the truth, and it's never going to change...



    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  28. mixel what is the price point and how many bottles to run a 8 week cycle for a 200 lber?
    FINAFLEX forum rep
    visit our website at finaflex.com

  29. Quote Originally Posted by xR1pp3Rx View Post
    mixel what is the price point and how many bottles to run a 8 week cycle for a 200 lber?
    If you order the 3 bottle special, it brings it down to about $56/bottle - including shipping. We're seeing great results at just 10 tabs/day - or a shade over $2/day. We're still working out the optimal dose protocol, but the good news is this: The finished product is considerably stronger than the prototype I was running (likely due to the superior raws, MASS was able to source). Which means this...

    Each bottle will last roughly a month then, at 10tabs/day.

    I've spoken to many that are north of 200lbs though, that do fine on just 4 caps pre/post workout on training days, and a similar amount on off days. It's simply a matter of dialing in your dosing. Along those lines, here's what I'd recommend

    7 caps preworkout/7post, out of the gate. This should obliterate DOMS the very first workout, for almost anyone. At the very most, I've heard it takes one week. Thereafter, reduce that to 6 and 6, 5 and 5 etc. until such time as you establish your lowest effective dose pre/post workout. Just makes sense, financially and physiologically to use the lowest effective dose for YOU.

    Off days, the product excels when taken 10min before meals. If eating frequently (every 2-3 hours), consider 2-3 caps prior to your 3 biggest meals of the day. If using IF (which many are thriving on), consider dosing 5 prior to your 1 or 2 big meals.

    I do NOT recommend using the product all day/every day as some would espouse, especially if running BP. In fact, I'm currently suggesting you just run it during the Feast phase, or the 6-8 weeks of your most intense/heaviest loading. Having said that, people like it so much they're now using it during Cruise. If you plan to use it without BP, I'd likewise recommend using it for up to 8 weeks, with perhaps 2-4 weeks off.

    Given all that it does and the fact many have found it to cut their supp/food bill substantially, it's seen as a "core companion" product among most of The BP Army. Meaning other products may be rotated in/out of the mix such as test boosters, NO products, creatines etc. - but Synthagen stays. This due in part, to the fact it seems to magnify and tie together everything else you use/eat. That may sound like hyperbole, but anyone using the product will confirm. In fact, I encourage you to contact them to validate what I'm saying. Some have even dropped that "mandatory" 5lb bag of whey every month - and are thriving.

    Coming off is the eye opener. B/C it ain't pleasant...
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
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