Ecdysterone yes or no?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    vitamin D is a secosteroid. the B and C rings are unformed but the body has enzymes which use those double bonds to finish forming the steroid four ring structure. if you did that to vitamin D you would have a structure pretty similar to cholesterol and ecdysteroids
    Explains a lot. Thank you Pat...


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Explains a lot. Thank you Pat...
    Can you recommend a quality company selling ecdy? I have tried it in the past but I did not notice much. I forget what company I used but it seemed like everyone was using a different standardization method.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    Can you recommend a quality company selling ecdy? I have tried it in the past but I did not notice much. I forget what company I used but it seemed like everyone was using a different standardization method.
    You cant go wrong with Mass Pro Synthagen.
    This message was paid for by the Russians

  4. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid

    Can you recommend a quality company selling ecdy? I have tried it in the past but I did not notice much. I forget what company I used but it seemed like everyone was using a different standardization method.
    Ive tried iforce... But I dosed it at a whopping 15 caps a day. Results? I had some mean increase in mass of my lats. But I cant give 100% credit to ecdysone as I was training less so I should've had more time to grow. Who knows though?
    RecoverBro ELITE

  5. Quote Originally Posted by ax1

    You cant go wrong with Mass Pro Synthagen.
    Have run it?
    It's OOS now.
    RecoverBro ELITE
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    Can you recommend a quality company selling ecdy? I have tried it in the past but I did not notice much. I forget what company I used but it seemed like everyone was using a different standardization method.
    Muscle and Sports Science has been offering quality Ecdysterone extracts since 1993. Ax1 very kindly recommended my product, Mass Pro Synthagen. It's my formula, done under MASS's label. It's brand new, contains Ecdy (amongst MANY complimentary ingredients) and the feedback has exceeded even my expectations. The first two batches sold out fast, and we continue to see great things.

    I wrote "The Blueprint" Ebook, which is an optimal use protocol for adaptogens of sorts. Ecdy research figured prominently in its development. It was published just prior to Ebol's release (2nd version of Ebol, if I'm not mistaken). Almost immediately, my guys running BP paired it with Ebol resulting in incredible success. Today, Ebol has perhaps the longest running, successful track record within BP. It too, would be an excellent choice. If it's pure Ecdy/Ecdy heavy formula you're looking for, Ebol would be my recommendation.

    I think you'll find source material for Ecdy is a big issue. You can find "Ecdy" for $300/kilo out of China, but it's largely 20-hydroxyecdysterone from the inferior source genus cyanotis vaga. Thermolife goes to the Institute of Chemistry and Plant Sciences in Uzbekistan for their raws/Rhaponticum/Turkesterone.

    Says alot, about the quality of Ecdy in Ebol.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Muscle and Sports Science has been offering quality Ecdysterone extracts since 1993. Ax1 very kindly recommended my product, Mass Pro Synthagen. It's my formula, done under MASS's label. It's brand new, contains Ecdy (amongst MANY complimentary ingredients) and the feedback has exceeded even my expectations. The first two batches sold out fast, and we continue to see great things.

    I wrote "The Blueprint" Ebook, which is an optimal use protocol for adaptogens of sorts. Ecdy research figured prominently in its development. It was published just prior to Ebol's release (2nd version of Ebol, if I'm not mistaken). Almost immediately, my guys running BP paired it with Ebol resulting in incredible success. Today, Ebol has perhaps the longest running, successful track record within BP. It too, would be an excellent choice. If it's pure Ecdy/Ecdy heavy formula you're looking for, Ebol would be my recommendation.

    I think you'll find source material for Ecdy is a big issue. You can find "Ecdy" for $300/kilo out of China, but it's largely 20-hydroxyecdysterone from the inferior source genus cyanotis vaga. Thermolife goes to the Institute of Chemistry and Plant Sciences in Uzbekistan for their raws/Rhaponticum/Turkesterone.

    Says alot, about the quality of Ecdy in Ebol.
    Thank you for the detailed response. I had disregarded ecdy in the past but was not using any of the products that you listed. I am just going to assume that I was not getting quality ecdy and may give it a second shot in the future with one of the products you mentioned.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid

    Thank you for the detailed response. I had disregarded ecdy in the past but was not using any of the products that you listed. I am just going to assume that I was not getting quality ecdy and may give it a second shot in the future with one of the products you mentioned.
    If I run mass pro synthagon I will let you know.
    RecoverBro ELITE

  9. I'm not an insect, so no.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    Thank you for the detailed response. I had disregarded ecdy in the past but was not using any of the products that you listed. I am just going to assume that I was not getting quality ecdy and may give it a second shot in the future with one of the products you mentioned.
    I'm going to PM you a training tip, that you can use with a quality Ecdy. This type of training leverages the point I made, about there being a stress necessary, for adaptogens to work optimally.

    Sincerely hope it helps you...

  11. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    If I run mass pro synthagon I will let you know.
    Please do man. In the meantime, we have a dosing/feedback thread on The BP Forums you may want to peruse. It may help you figure out where, when and how best to dose it.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    Have run it?
    It's OOS now.
    Not yet but plan to at some point (currently running other things to get out of the way).

    I highly respect the formula, Its easy for me to suggest it.

    Leuzea Rhaponticum carthamiodes at an effective dose is a great starting point. Its supporting cast of ingredients make it for something special and different from everything else on the market. I trust the company too, I know their raws are legitimate and the highest quality.
    This message was paid for by the Russians

  13. Quote Originally Posted by ax1

    Not yet but plan to at some point (currently running other things to get out of the way).

    I highly respect the formula, Its easy for me to suggest it.

    Leuzea Rhaponticum carthamiodes at an effective dose is a great starting point. Its supporting cast of ingredients make it for something special and different from everything else on the market. I trust the company too, I know their raws are legitimate and the highest quality.
    Nice.
    Thanks for replying
    RecoverBro ELITE

  14. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    If I run mass pro synthagon I will let you know.
    Although the first two batches completely sold out, I'm told a very small run is expected in next Tuesday. Then first week of June, the mother load arrives for the national launch.

    Here's a SMALL sample, of the feedback we've received in just the first 3 weeks. Keep in mind, nobody got comped product - and these are 100% unsolicited...

    GARETH DENYER, CPT - 18 YEARS TRAINING, PREPS TX HS FOOTBALL PLAYERS FOR/DIV. 1

    "Just started Synthagen this past Tuesday (May 1st). Using 7 pre and 7 post workout along with 7 at night time and stacking 3 capsules of Adaptogen-N at night time.

    Within the past two nights I have slept incredibly well. My workouts on Tues and Thursday were the two best I have had in the past month, breaking two PR's and having plenty of stamina even at the end. I wanted to keep working out, which is completely unlike me due to my 15 hour work days and lack of sleep. It's difficult to explain but I have a better sense of well being. I don't feel so damn drained in other words.

    I can't wait to see what Synthagen will allow me to accomplish this month! I have to thank Rob for creating this product.

    Going on about two weeks of Synthagen and I have to say this supplement has vast array of benefits. The restorative properties and the increased sense of well being is amazing!! Not only can you train harder and increase intensity/density, you wake up the next day with no soreness and ready to train again....you have to literally force yourself to not train on the days you are supposed to take off.

    On the days I do take off from training, I am taking 7 caps before and after a gorge meal, eating whatever at high quantities. I have used insulin many times before and it does compare the partitioning properties that Synthagen has....everything you take in makes you full and vascular, the exact opposite of insulin from what I experienced while taking 20 iu's a day. Slin made me bloated and tired, not to mention the water retention was ridiculous even while eating super clean and using Karbolyn.

    I'm telling you now this supplement is revolutionary....I'm scared to run out of this stuff. Rob has found something special and we are lucky enough to be first to try it. For those who are wanting to train on the next level, this product will take you there...

    PMARTINEZ78

    "I noticed this morning that the stubborn fat in my lower abs looks like it has gone down a little. Maybe it's just me.

    UPDATE: Well it looks like it wasn't just me after all. I decided to measure my waist on Saturday morning to find out if I've lost any bf and it turns out that I have lost 1/2 an inch on my waist where I'm holding the last bit of fat. This is pretty impressive to me because I'm not following any diet plan aside from fasting all day. I don't count calories like a lot of people do and pretty much eat whatever my wife cooks which most of the time isn't all that healthy.

    Well I'm sold, Rob. This is what I've been looking for in a supplement. Not only does it make me hit the weights harder, but I eat whatever I want and still lean out. This is awesome.

    I got 1 more week of my first bottle. Let's see what happens this week. BTW, I had no DOMS at all during week 2..."

    THICKETMAN

    "I've been on MPS for 2 weeks now. See my previous post on page 2 of this thread for details. I want to preface this by saying that I'm REALLLLYYYYY pushing the limits diet/exercise/supplement-wise for the purpose of rapid fat loss for summer.

    I echo:

    1) Better rest/refreshed feeling the next day when taken pre-bed
    2) A nice sense of well-being at full dose (like Rob said, it's hard to put my finger on, but I feel good)
    3) SIGNIFICANTLY reduced DOMS (none on upper body day, MUCH less on lower body day)"

    It's still early, but here are the Synthagen hallmarks that are emerging...

    1.) Sense of well being, that's difficult to put your finger on - but it's there
    2.) Increased work capacity
    3.) Increased VO2 max/stamina
    4.) GREATLY accelerated recovery/reduced DOMS from exercise

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    I'm going to PM you a training tip, that you can use with a quality Ecdy. This type of training leverages the point I made, about there being a stress necessary, for adaptogens to work optimally.

    Sincerely hope it helps you...
    Would ecdy be a good product for a 5x5 type style program (or even 531 by Wendler)? Bill Starr's 5x5 for example, if you are familiar with it.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    Would ecdy be a good product for a 5x5 type style program (or even 531 by Wendler)? Bill Starr's 5x5 for example, if you are familiar with it.
    Generally speaking, no. I'm going to caveat that though, by saying that for an adaptogen like Ecdy to work optimally - there needs to be a rather profound environmental stress, to adapt to. In the absence of that, adaptogens perform sub-optimally. You also needn't go over-board on the protein, like so many companies will recommend with Ecdy. Fact of the matter is, Ecdy's glucose disposal (and other) properties are as prominent - if not moreso than its effect on protein synthesis.

    In the right formula, you can leverage ALL that Ecdy has to offer. For the record, it offers a LOT. Take a gander... See PDF in particular section 7:

    http://ecdybase.org/index.php?&action=ecdyeffects


    "Effects on vertebrates, including mammals
    1. Effects of exogenous ecdysteroids
    2. Ecdysteroid metabolism in mammals


  17. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick

    Generally speaking, no. I'm going to caveat that though, by saying that for an adaptogen like Ecdy to work optimally - there needs to be a rather profound environmental stress, to adapt to. In the absence of that, adaptogens perform sub-optimally. You also needn't go over-board on the protein, like so many companies will recommend with Ecdy. Fact of the matter is, Ecdy's glucose disposal (and other) properties are as prominent - if not moreso than its effect on protein synthesis.

    In the right formula, you can leverage ALL that Ecdy has to offer. For the record, it offers a LOT. Take a gander... See PDF in particular section 7:

    http://ecdybase.org/index.php?&action=ecdyeffects

    "Effects on vertebrates, including mammals
    [*]Effects of exogenous ecdysteroids[*]Ecdysteroid metabolism in mammals
    Tart Cherry Juice with Synthagen....BOOM!!

  18. Quote Originally Posted by southsideguy View Post
    Tart Cherry Juice with Synthagen....BOOM!!
    Yeah, it's quite the experience. When I put Synthagen to the test though, I did so in a unique fashion - did everything I could, to subvert the product. Yep, brought protein DOWN to under 75g/day for weeks at a time. Then brought calories way below maintenance. Deliberately tried to over-train, etc.. I still gained in the gym/lost no muscle. That's when I knew it was ready.

    Little wonder then, the slew of positive reviews that have been coming in. The latest was just one such case. He had been ravaged by life, I guess you could say. Here's what went down..

    Mattlaw30



    Joined: 30 Apr 2011
    Posts: 10
    Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 1:29 pm Post subject:

    "This product is amazing. In the last month I have been getting over a cold and stressed out beyond belief due to work. Not sleeping or eating well. My body is probably swimming in cortisol. Despite all of this I have been able to workout and make gains using Synthagen; 5 caps before workout, 5 after and 2 in the morning on off days. Visually my shoulders look different. Wider and you can see striations. I love this product..."

    So enough about Synthagen... :-) Here's a relevant question - why don't more companies try doing this, prior to bringing a product to market?

    As I sit here thinking about it, the BEST products I ever used were ones that seemingly made things "failsafe". You know, they had that eerie similarity to androgens insofar as their ability to make up for certain dietary/training or lifestyle faux pas - and you still did well on them. I'm not talking about gross offenses here, like eating at McDonald's every day or partying until 2AM every night. Just the "life happens" stuff.

    Dunno. It just seems to me that it's a good way to go about putting XYZ product to the test.

  19. ^^^ So your saying volume is the way to go to induce the stress or something like super & drop sets?

  20. Oh no!. No free use allowed!

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Yeah, it's quite the experience. When I put Synthagen to the test though, I did so in a unique fashion - did everything I could, to subvert the product. Yep, brought protein DOWN to under 75g/day for weeks at a time. Then brought calories way below maintenance. Deliberately tried to over-train, etc.. I still gained in the gym/lost no muscle. That's when I knew it was ready.

    Little wonder then, the slew of positive reviews that have been coming in. The latest was just one such case. He had been ravaged by life, I guess you could say. Here's what went down..

    Mattlaw30



    Joined: 30 Apr 2011
    Posts: 10
    Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 1:29 pm Post subject:

    "This product is amazing. In the last month I have been getting over a cold and stressed out beyond belief due to work. Not sleeping or eating well. My body is probably swimming in cortisol. Despite all of this I have been able to workout and make gains using Synthagen; 5 caps before workout, 5 after and 2 in the morning on off days. Visually my shoulders look different. Wider and you can see striations. I love this product..."

    So enough about Synthagen... :-) Here's a relevant question - why don't more companies try doing this, prior to bringing a product to market?

    As I sit here thinking about it, the BEST products I ever used were ones that seemingly made things "failsafe". You know, they had that eerie similarity to androgens insofar as their ability to make up for certain dietary/training or lifestyle faux pas - and you still did well on them. I'm not talking about gross offenses here, like eating at McDonald's every day or partying until 2AM every night. Just the "life happens" stuff.

    Dunno. It just seems to me that it's a good way to go about putting XYZ product to the test.
    you do have me wanting to try synthagen now....

    I think though there are a few reasons that doesn't happen often. For one of course, the supplement companies that are in the advertising in magazines you read, sponsoring serious athletes, etc are in business to make money. Effectiveness of a product often comes quite secondary to ability to sell and make a profit. The less cynical reason is that since they do compete against each other, they have to try and release things rapidly and make changes rapidly to keep from falling behind with their competitors.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Thunder1 View Post
    ^^^ So your saying volume is the way to go to induce the stress or something like super & drop sets?
    Not necessarily, no. My point being, when you combine known "negatives" that adversely affect your training (like over-training, too little sleep, sub-maintenance protein/calories to support growth, etc.), it will oftentimes illustrate the efficacy (or lack thereof) of a nutraceutical/supplement. Picture the above scenario with and without the product. When you're in this environment and NOT using the product, your training seems futile.

    When you ARE using the product, you're still getting stronger, going longer and recovering FAST. That's when you know you have something with potential. On the other end of the spectrum, you take the guy who's doing everything right - he's likely going to make gains with or without the product. When the product is added, it's a lot tougher to decipher if gains are above and beyond those of training supplement free.

    Granted, it's not a university study with DEXA scans, bloodwork etc - but as a practical, "real world" test, I rather favor it. Besides, you'd have to be loaded to fund a study like that. Even if results were stellar (and legit), you're going to get cold water thrown on it b/c you (the person selling the product), funded the study.

    Catch - 22...

  23. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    you do have me wanting to try synthagen now....

    I think though there are a few reasons that doesn't happen often. For one of course, the supplement companies that are in the advertising in magazines you read, sponsoring serious athletes, etc are in business to make money. Effectiveness of a product often comes quite secondary to ability to sell and make a profit. The less cynical reason is that since they do compete against each other, they have to try and release things rapidly and make changes rapidly to keep from falling behind with their competitors.
    You make great points. It just blows my mind that product efficacy comes second to hiring an ad agency, getting some juiced up pro to endorse it and gearing up for methyl 2-test, because methyl 1-test was so "last month".

    In my mind, the true test is as follows...

    1.) The product generates repeat buys, over a decade or more
    2.) The product doesn't need much advertising - it sells itself through word of mouth

    I keep seeing "new"! New doesn't mean better. Better is better....

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    You make great points. It just blows my mind that product efficacy comes second to hiring an ad agency, getting some juiced up pro to endorse it and gearing up for methyl 2-test, because methyl 1-test was so "last month".

    In my mind, the true test is as follows...

    1.) The product generates repeat buys, over a decade or more
    2.) The product doesn't need much advertising - it sells itself through word of mouth

    I keep seeing "new"! New doesn't mean better. Better is better....

    I'm old so I don't have time to wait over a decade. What you say in this post makes sense though.
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