Ecdysterone yes or no?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    I'm assuming you're referring to this?

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1....4679/abstract

    Keywords:


    • 20-hydroxyecdysone;
    • infusion;
    • mice;
    • microarray;
    • phytoecdysteroids;
    • skeletal muscle



    Phytoecdysteroids have been attributed with numerous pharmacological properties in animals, including increasing muscle mass, and 20-hydroxyecdysone (20E) is one of the most abundant phytoecdysteroids produced by plants. In this study, the physiological and gene expression effects of 20E were analyzed in C57BL/6 mice given a continuous infusion of saline or 20E (5 mg/kg/day) for 5 or 15 days using subcutaneously implanted Alzet® osmotic pumps. The masses of the total body, muscle groups and organs were determined. There was a significant increase ( p = 0.01) in the mass of triceps brachii in mice treated with 20E for 5 days (115 ± 8 mg) compared with mice treated with saline for 5 days (88 ± 3 mg), however, there were no differences in the other measured parameters. To determine potential mechanisms of 20E in skeletal muscle, Illumina's Mouse Whole Genome-6 v2.0 Expression BeadChips were used to evaluate changes in gene expression of the triceps brachii after 20E infusion. Ingenuity Pathways Analysis was used to identify genes with the most evidence for differential expression, of which, 16 genes involved in the skeletal and muscular system were identified. Overall, the data suggest that 20E does not have potent anabolic properties, however, a muscle-specific increase was observed and genes were identified to provide an explanation for the muscle accretion. Copyright © 2012 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.



    Quite interesting, the muscle specific effect observed. I only had time to read the abstract, off to the gym!!!

    yeah that one. the question is, was the osmotic pump situated in the vicinity of the triceps brachii?

    very odd that just one specific muscle group would grow otherwise
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    yeah that one. the question is, was the osmotic pump situated in the vicinity of the triceps brachii?

    very odd that just one specific muscle group would grow otherwise
    Agree. If so, it would seem to parallel MadRussian's (I think that was his handle) findings/commentary, when pinning an Ecdy homebrew. This is where our little world has something to offer. An avant guard experiment? Perhaps, yet it offers insight into unanswered questions.

    If this is in fact the case, it'll just result in more Ecdy questions vs. answers. Still, it illustrates the fact it CAN be anabolic in muscle tissue. We need more studies in humans, given the potential it holds for sarcopenia/muscle wasting in conditions where traditional anabolics are contra-indicated (i.e. prostate cancer). I fully understand they're pursuing SARM's for this, but Ecdy is far less likely to present the unknown/reported side effects SARM's have presented (i.e. transient visual disturbances, etc.).

    Exciting stuff...
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Agree. If so, it would seem to parallel MadRussian's (I think that was his handle) findings/commentary, when pinning an Ecdy homebrew. This is where our little world has something to offer. An avant guard experiment? Perhaps, yet it offers insight into unanswered questions.

    If this is in fact the case, it'll just result in more Ecdy questions vs. answers. Still, it illustrates the fact it CAN be anabolic in muscle tissue. We need more studies in humans, given the potential it holds for sarcopenia/muscle wasting in conditions where traditional anabolics are contra-indicated (i.e. prostate cancer). I fully understand they're pursuing SARM's for this, but Ecdy is far less likely to present the unknown/reported side effects SARM's have presented (i.e. transient visual disturbances, etc.).

    Exciting stuff...
    Do you have a delivery method or modification to ecdy that will actually get it to skeletal muscle in humans?

  4. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Do you have a delivery method or modification to ecdy that will actually get it to skeletal muscle in humans?

    u mean orally or injectable?

    i dont see how one can target ecdy to skeletal muscle by either route. Its gonna go where it wants to go. unless you inject it right into a muscle, but still most of that will diffuse out of the muscle.
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    u mean orally or injectable?

    i dont see how one can target ecdy to skeletal muscle by either route. Its gonna go where it wants to go. unless you inject it right into a muscle, but still most of that will diffuse out of the muscle.
    I mean orally since injectables aren't really a feasible option in this industry (or are they?), and I don't mean targeting skeletal muscle but rather even reaching the tissue.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I mean orally since injectables aren't really a feasible option in this industry (or are they?), and I don't mean targeting skeletal muscle but rather even reaching the tissue.
    i was under the impression that they absorbed in the gut and reached the blood stream in reasonable amounts
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i was under the impression that they absorbed in the gut and reached the blood stream in reasonable amounts
    I recall reading that radiolabeled ecdy was most prevalent in excretory organs of animals closer in size to humans. Was your research referring to rats?

  8. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I recall reading that radiolabeled ecdy was most prevalent in excretory organs of animals closer in size to humans. Was your research referring to rats?
    Silly bladder hogging all the ecdy

  9. i got the full text on the 20E infusion.

    the triceps got significantly bigger after 5 days but after 15 they shrunk back down. no other muscles or organs showed any changes

    big dissapointment
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i got the full text on the 20E infusion.

    the triceps got significantly bigger after 5 days but after 15 they shrunk back down. no other muscles or organs showed any changes

    big dissapointment
    You were hoping for a bigger heart?
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i got the full text on the 20E infusion.

    the triceps got significantly bigger after 5 days but after 15 they shrunk back down. no other muscles or organs showed any changes

    big dissapointment
    Hold a sec - wasn't the Ecdy only administered for 5 days? I didn't read the full study, but thought I recalled that from the abstract...

    EDIT: Found it - There was a significant increase ( p = 0.01) in the mass of triceps brachii in mice treated with 20E for 5 days

    So my real question PA is this - Does the full study disclose where the osmotic pump was, perhaps in the tricep?

  12. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Do you have a delivery method or modification to ecdy that will actually get it to skeletal muscle in humans?
    No, but I'm not convinced you need one. I believe it builds into the cell membrane, much like fish oil. The studies I've seen (most), demonstrate it's well absorbed orally, despite what you'll hear elsewhere. Many also claim it's eliminated too rapidly, but from the studies i've seen it's largely dependent upon the size of the animal.

    I don't feel this is a terribly limiting factor.

    What I DO think has hurt the most, is positioning of Ecdy as a "steroid replacement". Adaptogens do NOT = Anabolics. Neither in structure nor function. Yet many of the suggestions insofar as optimal dosing mirror those of androgens (cycling, take with extra protein etc.). Big mistake, IMO. No environmental stressor to adapt to?

    Adaptogens don't perform well.

    Androgens fire the gun for you. Look at the study in the NEJM, I think it was on 600mg testosterone/week. Those guys put on more muscle without training, than hard training naturals 3days/week! Adaptogens are ammunition, but you still have to fire the gun.

    Best way I can put it....

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    No, but I'm not convinced you need one. I believe it builds into the cell membrane, much like fish oil. ..

    Maybe it displaces cholesterol in the cell membrane, since cholesterol and ecdysteroids are structurally similar

    ecdysteroids are alot more water soluble though. so maybe i am wrong
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    Maybe it displaces cholesterol in the cell membrane, since cholesterol and ecdysteroids are structurally similar

    ecdysteroids are alot more water soluble though. so maybe i am wrong
    That's a great theory, I wish we knew if that's what was going on. There's also something going on with Vitamin D, insofar as some studies seem to indicate Ecdy can act as a substitute for it. It's just damned difficult to nail down. Ecdy is incredibly controversial, but for those of us it works for it works well. The reduction in DOMS for example, profound in my case (and many others). I think Scooter put it best here (paraphrasing), "When you come off of Ecdy, you just feel old...".

    And that's exactly what it feels like. I feel beat up/achy from training, don't recover nearly as well and lose the sense of well being it imparts. It also helps me sleep better and seems to increase my VO2 max, for what it's worth. It's just a shame more studies aren't being done...

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    That's a great theory, I wish we knew if that's what was going on. There's also something going on with Vitamin D, insofar as some studies seem to indicate Ecdy can act as a substitute for it.
    vitamin D is a secosteroid. the B and C rings are unformed but the body has enzymes which use those double bonds to finish forming the steroid four ring structure. if you did that to vitamin D you would have a structure pretty similar to cholesterol and ecdysteroids
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    vitamin D is a secosteroid. the B and C rings are unformed but the body has enzymes which use those double bonds to finish forming the steroid four ring structure. if you did that to vitamin D you would have a structure pretty similar to cholesterol and ecdysteroids
    Explains a lot. Thank you Pat...

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Explains a lot. Thank you Pat...
    Can you recommend a quality company selling ecdy? I have tried it in the past but I did not notice much. I forget what company I used but it seemed like everyone was using a different standardization method.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    Can you recommend a quality company selling ecdy? I have tried it in the past but I did not notice much. I forget what company I used but it seemed like everyone was using a different standardization method.
    You cant go wrong with Mass Pro Synthagen.
    This message was paid for by the Russians

  19. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid

    Can you recommend a quality company selling ecdy? I have tried it in the past but I did not notice much. I forget what company I used but it seemed like everyone was using a different standardization method.
    Ive tried iforce... But I dosed it at a whopping 15 caps a day. Results? I had some mean increase in mass of my lats. But I cant give 100% credit to ecdysone as I was training less so I should've had more time to grow. Who knows though?
    RecoverBro ELITE

  20. Quote Originally Posted by ax1

    You cant go wrong with Mass Pro Synthagen.
    Have run it?
    It's OOS now.
    RecoverBro ELITE

  21. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    Can you recommend a quality company selling ecdy? I have tried it in the past but I did not notice much. I forget what company I used but it seemed like everyone was using a different standardization method.
    Muscle and Sports Science has been offering quality Ecdysterone extracts since 1993. Ax1 very kindly recommended my product, Mass Pro Synthagen. It's my formula, done under MASS's label. It's brand new, contains Ecdy (amongst MANY complimentary ingredients) and the feedback has exceeded even my expectations. The first two batches sold out fast, and we continue to see great things.

    I wrote "The Blueprint" Ebook, which is an optimal use protocol for adaptogens of sorts. Ecdy research figured prominently in its development. It was published just prior to Ebol's release (2nd version of Ebol, if I'm not mistaken). Almost immediately, my guys running BP paired it with Ebol resulting in incredible success. Today, Ebol has perhaps the longest running, successful track record within BP. It too, would be an excellent choice. If it's pure Ecdy/Ecdy heavy formula you're looking for, Ebol would be my recommendation.

    I think you'll find source material for Ecdy is a big issue. You can find "Ecdy" for $300/kilo out of China, but it's largely 20-hydroxyecdysterone from the inferior source genus cyanotis vaga. Thermolife goes to the Institute of Chemistry and Plant Sciences in Uzbekistan for their raws/Rhaponticum/Turkesterone.

    Says alot, about the quality of Ecdy in Ebol.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Muscle and Sports Science has been offering quality Ecdysterone extracts since 1993. Ax1 very kindly recommended my product, Mass Pro Synthagen. It's my formula, done under MASS's label. It's brand new, contains Ecdy (amongst MANY complimentary ingredients) and the feedback has exceeded even my expectations. The first two batches sold out fast, and we continue to see great things.

    I wrote "The Blueprint" Ebook, which is an optimal use protocol for adaptogens of sorts. Ecdy research figured prominently in its development. It was published just prior to Ebol's release (2nd version of Ebol, if I'm not mistaken). Almost immediately, my guys running BP paired it with Ebol resulting in incredible success. Today, Ebol has perhaps the longest running, successful track record within BP. It too, would be an excellent choice. If it's pure Ecdy/Ecdy heavy formula you're looking for, Ebol would be my recommendation.

    I think you'll find source material for Ecdy is a big issue. You can find "Ecdy" for $300/kilo out of China, but it's largely 20-hydroxyecdysterone from the inferior source genus cyanotis vaga. Thermolife goes to the Institute of Chemistry and Plant Sciences in Uzbekistan for their raws/Rhaponticum/Turkesterone.

    Says alot, about the quality of Ecdy in Ebol.
    Thank you for the detailed response. I had disregarded ecdy in the past but was not using any of the products that you listed. I am just going to assume that I was not getting quality ecdy and may give it a second shot in the future with one of the products you mentioned.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid

    Thank you for the detailed response. I had disregarded ecdy in the past but was not using any of the products that you listed. I am just going to assume that I was not getting quality ecdy and may give it a second shot in the future with one of the products you mentioned.
    If I run mass pro synthagon I will let you know.
    RecoverBro ELITE

  24. I'm not an insect, so no.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    Thank you for the detailed response. I had disregarded ecdy in the past but was not using any of the products that you listed. I am just going to assume that I was not getting quality ecdy and may give it a second shot in the future with one of the products you mentioned.
    I'm going to PM you a training tip, that you can use with a quality Ecdy. This type of training leverages the point I made, about there being a stress necessary, for adaptogens to work optimally.

    Sincerely hope it helps you...

  26. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    If I run mass pro synthagon I will let you know.
    Please do man. In the meantime, we have a dosing/feedback thread on The BP Forums you may want to peruse. It may help you figure out where, when and how best to dose it.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    Have run it?
    It's OOS now.
    Not yet but plan to at some point (currently running other things to get out of the way).

    I highly respect the formula, Its easy for me to suggest it.

    Leuzea Rhaponticum carthamiodes at an effective dose is a great starting point. Its supporting cast of ingredients make it for something special and different from everything else on the market. I trust the company too, I know their raws are legitimate and the highest quality.
    This message was paid for by the Russians

  28. Quote Originally Posted by ax1

    Not yet but plan to at some point (currently running other things to get out of the way).

    I highly respect the formula, Its easy for me to suggest it.

    Leuzea Rhaponticum carthamiodes at an effective dose is a great starting point. Its supporting cast of ingredients make it for something special and different from everything else on the market. I trust the company too, I know their raws are legitimate and the highest quality.
    Nice.
    Thanks for replying
    RecoverBro ELITE

  29. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    If I run mass pro synthagon I will let you know.
    Although the first two batches completely sold out, I'm told a very small run is expected in next Tuesday. Then first week of June, the mother load arrives for the national launch.

    Here's a SMALL sample, of the feedback we've received in just the first 3 weeks. Keep in mind, nobody got comped product - and these are 100% unsolicited...

    GARETH DENYER, CPT - 18 YEARS TRAINING, PREPS TX HS FOOTBALL PLAYERS FOR/DIV. 1

    "Just started Synthagen this past Tuesday (May 1st). Using 7 pre and 7 post workout along with 7 at night time and stacking 3 capsules of Adaptogen-N at night time.

    Within the past two nights I have slept incredibly well. My workouts on Tues and Thursday were the two best I have had in the past month, breaking two PR's and having plenty of stamina even at the end. I wanted to keep working out, which is completely unlike me due to my 15 hour work days and lack of sleep. It's difficult to explain but I have a better sense of well being. I don't feel so damn drained in other words.

    I can't wait to see what Synthagen will allow me to accomplish this month! I have to thank Rob for creating this product.

    Going on about two weeks of Synthagen and I have to say this supplement has vast array of benefits. The restorative properties and the increased sense of well being is amazing!! Not only can you train harder and increase intensity/density, you wake up the next day with no soreness and ready to train again....you have to literally force yourself to not train on the days you are supposed to take off.

    On the days I do take off from training, I am taking 7 caps before and after a gorge meal, eating whatever at high quantities. I have used insulin many times before and it does compare the partitioning properties that Synthagen has....everything you take in makes you full and vascular, the exact opposite of insulin from what I experienced while taking 20 iu's a day. Slin made me bloated and tired, not to mention the water retention was ridiculous even while eating super clean and using Karbolyn.

    I'm telling you now this supplement is revolutionary....I'm scared to run out of this stuff. Rob has found something special and we are lucky enough to be first to try it. For those who are wanting to train on the next level, this product will take you there...

    PMARTINEZ78

    "I noticed this morning that the stubborn fat in my lower abs looks like it has gone down a little. Maybe it's just me.

    UPDATE: Well it looks like it wasn't just me after all. I decided to measure my waist on Saturday morning to find out if I've lost any bf and it turns out that I have lost 1/2 an inch on my waist where I'm holding the last bit of fat. This is pretty impressive to me because I'm not following any diet plan aside from fasting all day. I don't count calories like a lot of people do and pretty much eat whatever my wife cooks which most of the time isn't all that healthy.

    Well I'm sold, Rob. This is what I've been looking for in a supplement. Not only does it make me hit the weights harder, but I eat whatever I want and still lean out. This is awesome.

    I got 1 more week of my first bottle. Let's see what happens this week. BTW, I had no DOMS at all during week 2..."

    THICKETMAN

    "I've been on MPS for 2 weeks now. See my previous post on page 2 of this thread for details. I want to preface this by saying that I'm REALLLLYYYYY pushing the limits diet/exercise/supplement-wise for the purpose of rapid fat loss for summer.

    I echo:

    1) Better rest/refreshed feeling the next day when taken pre-bed
    2) A nice sense of well-being at full dose (like Rob said, it's hard to put my finger on, but I feel good)
    3) SIGNIFICANTLY reduced DOMS (none on upper body day, MUCH less on lower body day)"

    It's still early, but here are the Synthagen hallmarks that are emerging...

    1.) Sense of well being, that's difficult to put your finger on - but it's there
    2.) Increased work capacity
    3.) Increased VO2 max/stamina
    4.) GREATLY accelerated recovery/reduced DOMS from exercise

  30. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    I'm going to PM you a training tip, that you can use with a quality Ecdy. This type of training leverages the point I made, about there being a stress necessary, for adaptogens to work optimally.

    Sincerely hope it helps you...
    Would ecdy be a good product for a 5x5 type style program (or even 531 by Wendler)? Bill Starr's 5x5 for example, if you are familiar with it.
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