Ecdysterone yes or no?

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  1. clear your pm's mixel
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  2. it's all that resveratrol bro
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    clear your pm's mixel
    Done

  4. I'm late to this thread. everything I wanted to say and debate has been debated.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    I'm late to this thread. everything I wanted to say and debate has been debated.
    Aw c'mon, there's always more to debate when it comes to Ecdy...
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Aw c'mon, there's always more to debate when it comes to Ecdy...
    reminds me of a few years ago when the bans were getting closer,I remember a few companies gettin crazy over the edy

  7. There is a pro-bodybuilder, on another forum, who claims to use injectable Ecdy pre-contest with excellent results.

  8. recent study on injectable 20E done here at u of illinois had weird and somewhat dissapointing results
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    recent study on injectable 20E done here at u of illinois had weird and somewhat dissapointing results
    Thanks for the tip PA! I'm googling now, can you please provide a link here for the board members that may be interested?

    Someone I know REAL well will be running a "full spectrum" Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract injectible within a month or two. I'm no fan of 20E/20-Hydroxyecdysterone standalone. This, based upon 15 years of running it orally, sublingual in a cyclodextrin base as well as transdermal with the carrier being your odorless DMSO (great stuff, btw). Only the trans at a gram/day of 20-H yielded some benefit.

    I'm of the opinion that full spectrum RCE is the preferred source genus, given there is a grouping of ecdysteroids in the plant (referred to as the "levseins" complex in the former Soviet literature). There are also various tannins and resins contained therein, that are considered to be beneficial. This is but one of the reasons I elected to incorporate into Mass Pro Synthagen - my first Ecdy product. To be fair, Thermolife makes an excellent product in this category, E-bol. Like Synthagen, they use RCE as the primary source of Ecdy.

    More info on the Ecdy pinning experiment, forthcoming...

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    recent study on injectable 20E done here at u of illinois had weird and somewhat dissapointing results
    I'm assuming you're referring to this?

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1....4679/abstract

    Keywords:

    • 20-hydroxyecdysone;
    • infusion;
    • mice;
    • microarray;
    • phytoecdysteroids;
    • skeletal muscle



    Phytoecdysteroids have been attributed with numerous pharmacological properties in animals, including increasing muscle mass, and 20-hydroxyecdysone (20E) is one of the most abundant phytoecdysteroids produced by plants. In this study, the physiological and gene expression effects of 20E were analyzed in C57BL/6 mice given a continuous infusion of saline or 20E (5 mg/kg/day) for 5 or 15 days using subcutaneously implanted Alzet® osmotic pumps. The masses of the total body, muscle groups and organs were determined. There was a significant increase ( p = 0.01) in the mass of triceps brachii in mice treated with 20E for 5 days (115 ± 8 mg) compared with mice treated with saline for 5 days (88 ± 3 mg), however, there were no differences in the other measured parameters. To determine potential mechanisms of 20E in skeletal muscle, Illumina's Mouse Whole Genome-6 v2.0 Expression BeadChips were used to evaluate changes in gene expression of the triceps brachii after 20E infusion. Ingenuity Pathways Analysis was used to identify genes with the most evidence for differential expression, of which, 16 genes involved in the skeletal and muscular system were identified. Overall, the data suggest that 20E does not have potent anabolic properties, however, a muscle-specific increase was observed and genes were identified to provide an explanation for the muscle accretion. Copyright © 2012 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.



    Quite interesting, the muscle specific effect observed. I only had time to read the abstract, off to the gym!!!

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    I'm assuming you're referring to this?

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1....4679/abstract

    Keywords:


    • 20-hydroxyecdysone;
    • infusion;
    • mice;
    • microarray;
    • phytoecdysteroids;
    • skeletal muscle



    Phytoecdysteroids have been attributed with numerous pharmacological properties in animals, including increasing muscle mass, and 20-hydroxyecdysone (20E) is one of the most abundant phytoecdysteroids produced by plants. In this study, the physiological and gene expression effects of 20E were analyzed in C57BL/6 mice given a continuous infusion of saline or 20E (5 mg/kg/day) for 5 or 15 days using subcutaneously implanted Alzet® osmotic pumps. The masses of the total body, muscle groups and organs were determined. There was a significant increase ( p = 0.01) in the mass of triceps brachii in mice treated with 20E for 5 days (115 ± 8 mg) compared with mice treated with saline for 5 days (88 ± 3 mg), however, there were no differences in the other measured parameters. To determine potential mechanisms of 20E in skeletal muscle, Illumina's Mouse Whole Genome-6 v2.0 Expression BeadChips were used to evaluate changes in gene expression of the triceps brachii after 20E infusion. Ingenuity Pathways Analysis was used to identify genes with the most evidence for differential expression, of which, 16 genes involved in the skeletal and muscular system were identified. Overall, the data suggest that 20E does not have potent anabolic properties, however, a muscle-specific increase was observed and genes were identified to provide an explanation for the muscle accretion. Copyright © 2012 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.



    Quite interesting, the muscle specific effect observed. I only had time to read the abstract, off to the gym!!!

    yeah that one. the question is, was the osmotic pump situated in the vicinity of the triceps brachii?

    very odd that just one specific muscle group would grow otherwise
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    yeah that one. the question is, was the osmotic pump situated in the vicinity of the triceps brachii?

    very odd that just one specific muscle group would grow otherwise
    Agree. If so, it would seem to parallel MadRussian's (I think that was his handle) findings/commentary, when pinning an Ecdy homebrew. This is where our little world has something to offer. An avant guard experiment? Perhaps, yet it offers insight into unanswered questions.

    If this is in fact the case, it'll just result in more Ecdy questions vs. answers. Still, it illustrates the fact it CAN be anabolic in muscle tissue. We need more studies in humans, given the potential it holds for sarcopenia/muscle wasting in conditions where traditional anabolics are contra-indicated (i.e. prostate cancer). I fully understand they're pursuing SARM's for this, but Ecdy is far less likely to present the unknown/reported side effects SARM's have presented (i.e. transient visual disturbances, etc.).

    Exciting stuff...

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Agree. If so, it would seem to parallel MadRussian's (I think that was his handle) findings/commentary, when pinning an Ecdy homebrew. This is where our little world has something to offer. An avant guard experiment? Perhaps, yet it offers insight into unanswered questions.

    If this is in fact the case, it'll just result in more Ecdy questions vs. answers. Still, it illustrates the fact it CAN be anabolic in muscle tissue. We need more studies in humans, given the potential it holds for sarcopenia/muscle wasting in conditions where traditional anabolics are contra-indicated (i.e. prostate cancer). I fully understand they're pursuing SARM's for this, but Ecdy is far less likely to present the unknown/reported side effects SARM's have presented (i.e. transient visual disturbances, etc.).

    Exciting stuff...
    Do you have a delivery method or modification to ecdy that will actually get it to skeletal muscle in humans?

  14. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Do you have a delivery method or modification to ecdy that will actually get it to skeletal muscle in humans?

    u mean orally or injectable?

    i dont see how one can target ecdy to skeletal muscle by either route. Its gonna go where it wants to go. unless you inject it right into a muscle, but still most of that will diffuse out of the muscle.
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    u mean orally or injectable?

    i dont see how one can target ecdy to skeletal muscle by either route. Its gonna go where it wants to go. unless you inject it right into a muscle, but still most of that will diffuse out of the muscle.
    I mean orally since injectables aren't really a feasible option in this industry (or are they?), and I don't mean targeting skeletal muscle but rather even reaching the tissue.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I mean orally since injectables aren't really a feasible option in this industry (or are they?), and I don't mean targeting skeletal muscle but rather even reaching the tissue.
    i was under the impression that they absorbed in the gut and reached the blood stream in reasonable amounts
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  17. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i was under the impression that they absorbed in the gut and reached the blood stream in reasonable amounts
    I recall reading that radiolabeled ecdy was most prevalent in excretory organs of animals closer in size to humans. Was your research referring to rats?

  18. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I recall reading that radiolabeled ecdy was most prevalent in excretory organs of animals closer in size to humans. Was your research referring to rats?
    Silly bladder hogging all the ecdy

  19. i got the full text on the 20E infusion.

    the triceps got significantly bigger after 5 days but after 15 they shrunk back down. no other muscles or organs showed any changes

    big dissapointment
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i got the full text on the 20E infusion.

    the triceps got significantly bigger after 5 days but after 15 they shrunk back down. no other muscles or organs showed any changes

    big dissapointment
    You were hoping for a bigger heart?
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  21. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i got the full text on the 20E infusion.

    the triceps got significantly bigger after 5 days but after 15 they shrunk back down. no other muscles or organs showed any changes

    big dissapointment
    Hold a sec - wasn't the Ecdy only administered for 5 days? I didn't read the full study, but thought I recalled that from the abstract...

    EDIT: Found it - There was a significant increase ( p = 0.01) in the mass of triceps brachii in mice treated with 20E for 5 days

    So my real question PA is this - Does the full study disclose where the osmotic pump was, perhaps in the tricep?

  22. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Do you have a delivery method or modification to ecdy that will actually get it to skeletal muscle in humans?
    No, but I'm not convinced you need one. I believe it builds into the cell membrane, much like fish oil. The studies I've seen (most), demonstrate it's well absorbed orally, despite what you'll hear elsewhere. Many also claim it's eliminated too rapidly, but from the studies i've seen it's largely dependent upon the size of the animal.

    I don't feel this is a terribly limiting factor.

    What I DO think has hurt the most, is positioning of Ecdy as a "steroid replacement". Adaptogens do NOT = Anabolics. Neither in structure nor function. Yet many of the suggestions insofar as optimal dosing mirror those of androgens (cycling, take with extra protein etc.). Big mistake, IMO. No environmental stressor to adapt to?

    Adaptogens don't perform well.

    Androgens fire the gun for you. Look at the study in the NEJM, I think it was on 600mg testosterone/week. Those guys put on more muscle without training, than hard training naturals 3days/week! Adaptogens are ammunition, but you still have to fire the gun.

    Best way I can put it....

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    No, but I'm not convinced you need one. I believe it builds into the cell membrane, much like fish oil. ..

    Maybe it displaces cholesterol in the cell membrane, since cholesterol and ecdysteroids are structurally similar

    ecdysteroids are alot more water soluble though. so maybe i am wrong
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    Maybe it displaces cholesterol in the cell membrane, since cholesterol and ecdysteroids are structurally similar

    ecdysteroids are alot more water soluble though. so maybe i am wrong
    That's a great theory, I wish we knew if that's what was going on. There's also something going on with Vitamin D, insofar as some studies seem to indicate Ecdy can act as a substitute for it. It's just damned difficult to nail down. Ecdy is incredibly controversial, but for those of us it works for it works well. The reduction in DOMS for example, profound in my case (and many others). I think Scooter put it best here (paraphrasing), "When you come off of Ecdy, you just feel old...".

    And that's exactly what it feels like. I feel beat up/achy from training, don't recover nearly as well and lose the sense of well being it imparts. It also helps me sleep better and seems to increase my VO2 max, for what it's worth. It's just a shame more studies aren't being done...

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    That's a great theory, I wish we knew if that's what was going on. There's also something going on with Vitamin D, insofar as some studies seem to indicate Ecdy can act as a substitute for it.
    vitamin D is a secosteroid. the B and C rings are unformed but the body has enzymes which use those double bonds to finish forming the steroid four ring structure. if you did that to vitamin D you would have a structure pretty similar to cholesterol and ecdysteroids
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
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