T3 Thyroid shutdown avoidable

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    T3 Thyroid shutdown avoidable


    Pat, Some guys at the gym are preparing for a competetion in April, they were discussing whether or not there was any way to maximize T3 usage and effectiveness without shutting down the thyroid. One is dosing 100 mics 2 days on 2 days off and another is dosing 3 days on 2 off. Both are wondering if this is working or doing more harm than good. I told them I'd bounce it off you and see what your thoughts were. I looked online and could find general shutdown and function restoration estimates but I couldn't find any information on pulsing. What do think would maximize results and minimize shutdowns?
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    jeez i dont know that much about thyroid shutdown in real world situations.
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    I think the crux of the matter is, how long does the synthetic take to work? How long is it in your system, and how long before the thyroid says ung ungh! I'm taking a vacation. If t3 hangs around too long and the thyroid gets desensitized early then pulsing won't work, if the converse is true then pulsing should be an outstanding idea
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    I think the crux of the matter is, how long does the synthetic take to work? How long is it in your system, and how long before the thyroid says ung ungh! I'm taking a vacation. If t3 hangs around too long and the thyroid gets desensitized early then pulsing won't work, if the converse is true then pulsing should be an outstanding idea
    if i recall, T3 has a relatively long half life (i am sure wikipedia has an answer). It should work right away but take a few days to build up to steady state levels.

    the thyroid should be suppressed right away too. thats expected. the question is, how long before the thyroid shutdown gets to the point where it is difficult for it to bounce back in a timely manner (wikidpedia will not have an answer for this)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    if i recall, T3 has a relatively long half life (i am sure wikipedia has an answer). It should work right away but take a few days to build up to steady state levels.

    the thyroid should be suppressed right away too. thats expected. the question is, how long before the thyroid shutdown gets to the point where it is difficult for it to bounce back in a timely manner (wikidpedia will not have an answer for this)
    The blood work lab that you use, can they check thyroid levels? I wonder how many samples it would take to come up with answer to this dilemma?
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    The blood work lab that you use, can they check thyroid levels? I wonder how many samples it would take to come up with answer to this dilemma?
    If someone really wanted to be diligent and figure it out; you could have daily blood draws done and map it all out, but that would obviously be pricey. It wouldn't pin-point nearly as well, but weekly draws could give you a bit of a time line. Obviously, if you wanted to hold merit to it and rule out individual outliers, you'd need to have multiple people do this and also run different amounts of T3/day and for different lengths of time.

    You could have someone run 100mcg T3/day (since you mentioned these scenarios) for 3 days on and 2 days off and do weekly draws. The kicker, I imagine, would be that the pulsing method wouldn't give you accurate numbers like a constant dosing would, because the TSH will be going up and down, versus being fed a steady stream.

    The biggest measure would be how TSH reacts once dosing ceases (in my opinion).
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    If someone really wanted to be diligent and figure it out; you could have daily blood draws done and map it all out, but that would obviously be pricey. It wouldn't pin-point nearly as well, but weekly draws could give you a bit of a time line. Obviously, if you wanted to hold merit to it and rule out individual outliers, you'd need to have multiple people do this and also run different amounts of T3/day and for different lengths of time.

    You could have someone run 100mcg T3/day (since you mentioned these scenarios) for 3 days on and 2 days off and do weekly draws. The kicker, I imagine, would be that the pulsing method wouldn't give you accurate numbers like a constant dosing would, because the TSH will be going up and down, versus being fed a steady stream.

    The biggest measure would be how TSH reacts once dosing ceases (in my opinion).
    Yes ultimately that is what I am trying to figure out, how to glean the most results with the least amount of shutdown and fat rebound
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    The half life that's tossed around on T3 is 2.5 days (which is long in terms of some anabolic compounds, but not at all in comparison to T4). Despite the half life of 2.5 days, most people break the doses up, too. Then you have to consider interactions with other compounds, but that's a different thread.

    The best way to do this would be have 3 groups:

    Group A: 100mcg T3/day for 8 weeks
    Group B: 100mcg T3/day for 8 weeks (3 days on, 2 days off dosing)
    Group C: 100mcg T3/day for 8 weeks (2 days on, 2 days off dosing)

    You would do a baseline thyroid panel to see where all the numbers are and then ideally, you'd track the TSH, specifically, though I'd also like to see FT3 and FT4 numbers (T3 uptake would be interesting to track), on a daily basis. Where the daily blood work would really be of interest is in the pulsing dosing patterns. I'd like to see if the TSH moved very much in those days and how it differed in week 1 versus week 7.

    It's doubtful you'd see anyone shell out that much money, so you could say weekly blood draws, but that really fails to address what's going on in the pulsing groups.

    Just as important, if not the most important, would be the post-T3 blood draws to see how TSH reacts and how quickly it takes to do so, along with the FT3 and FT4 numbers.
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    And obviously running the same experiments with different dosing would be of interest, too: 50mcg/day, 75mcg/day, 125mcg/day.

    You'd need to have people who have a baseline TSH and thyroid numbers that look pretty similar to have it hold much merit (a starting TSH of 1.5 and 4.5 are certainly different). The diet restrictions necessary and whether someone was on an anabolic compound or not would also play a role.

    Basically, the more I think about it, it would be incredibly difficult (and expensive) to actually get legitimate results that you could say aren't just a fluke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    The blood work lab that you use, can they check thyroid levels? I wonder how many samples it would take to come up with answer to this dilemma?
    of course, thyroid panel is very common and probably not expensive
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    And obviously running the same experiments with different dosing would be of interest, too: 50mcg/day, 75mcg/day, 125mcg/day.

    You'd need to have people who have a baseline TSH and thyroid numbers that look pretty similar to have it hold much merit (a starting TSH of 1.5 and 4.5 are certainly different). The diet restrictions necessary and whether someone was on an anabolic compound or not would also play a role.

    Basically, the more I think about it, it would be incredibly difficult (and expensive) to actually get legitimate results that you could say aren't just a fluke.

    kinda just makes one wanna just forget the thyroid drugs altogetehr
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    kinda just makes one wanna just forget the thyroid drugs altogetehr
    When there are so many other compounds out there that have more research backing them in terms of benefits to risks, that's my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    When there are so many other compounds out there that have more research backing them in terms of benefits to risks, that's my opinion.

    i think alot of people use thyroid hormone because they think its a must, and they probably would do just as well without them and without all the potential complications
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    chickens do well on thyroid though. they grow fast
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    chickens do well on thyroid though. they grow fast
    I don't know why, but this just made me laugh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    I don't know why, but this just made me laugh.

    surprisingly, growth hormone does not work well on chickens. In fact, i hear it actually can depress their growth rate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    chickens do well on thyroid though. they grow fast
    Why do I hear you saying that in Christopher Walken's voice "Frankenstein never scared me.....marsupials do......cuz their Fast! " lol Were the two statements about chickens true or were just saying that to be funny?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    When there are so many other compounds out there that have more research backing them in terms of benefits to risks, that's my opinion.
    you are probably right, messing with the endocrine system is iffy at best in the cost benefit category
    Patrick Arnold kinda just makes one wanna just forget the thyroid drugs altogetehr
    Yeah, you are probably right, just like you forgot your spell checker
    altogetehr
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    risk vs reward thing.def a good idea to get it checked before jumping on any items that could or would affect it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    Why do I hear you saying that in Christopher Walken's voice "Frankenstein never scared me.....marsupials do......cuz their Fast! " lol Were the two statements about chickens true or were just saying that to be funny?


    they were true. not meant to be funny
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    they were true. not meant to be funny
    You're up early, I wonder why thyroid hormone would make chickens grow. I also wonder why growth hormone would depress their growth rate. It seems counter intuitive
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    You're up early, I wonder why thyroid hormone would make chickens grow. I also wonder why growth hormone would depress their growth rate. It seems counter intuitive
    thyroid hormone is necessary for growth. However usually its not something which yields a "more is better" result anabolically speaking
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    You're up early, I wonder why thyroid hormone would make chickens grow. I also wonder why growth hormone would depress their growth rate. It seems counter intuitive
    I dunno if it always depresses their growth rate but it certainly does not have an anabolic response. In growing poultry that is (by the time they are grown they are slaughtered so thats all that matters)

    answer appears to be because they just dont have an IGF-1 release response to exogenous GH like most mammals

    http://ps.fass.org/content/78/5/759.full.pdf
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    With little exception, GH does not improve skeletal
    muscle mass, carcass protein percentage, or any measure
    of muscle accretion in sexually immature, growing
    poultry (Leung et al., 1986; Burke et al., 1987; VasilatosYounken et al., 1988; Cogburn et al., 1989; Cravener and
    Vasilatos-Younken, 1989; Rosebrough et al., 1991; Bacon et
    al., 1995; Moellers and Cogburn, 1995) or in adult chickens
    (Radecki et al., 1997). In fact, in some studies, breast
    muscle, the largest skeletal muscle depot in the bird,
    tended to be reduced by GH treatment (VasilatosYounken et al., 1988; Cravener and Vasilatos-Younken,
    1989).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    answer appears to be because they just dont have an IGF-1 release response to exogenous GH like most mammals
    Now that's certainly something I was unaware of. Very interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    With little exception, GH does not improve skeletal
    muscle mass, carcass protein percentage, or any measure
    of muscle accretion in sexually immature, growing
    poultry (Leung et al., 1986; Burke et al., 1987; VasilatosYounken et al., 1988; Cogburn et al., 1989; Cravener and
    Vasilatos-Younken, 1989; Rosebrough et al., 1991; Bacon et
    al., 1995; Moellers and Cogburn, 1995) or in adult chickens
    (Radecki et al., 1997). In fact, in some studies, breast
    muscle, the largest skeletal muscle depot in the bird,
    tended to be reduced by GH treatment (VasilatosYounken et al., 1988; Cravener and Vasilatos-Younken,
    1989).
    maybe the chickens needed a higher dose
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    i can honestly tell I have taken my synthroid in a matter of minutes, especially if I run out and miss a day. I am on it for life so it does me no good for cutting but I do know it hits the system fast. I think pulsing would not be wise. It will put your levels all over the place
  

  
 

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