Role of DHT in secondary development of male genitals

[J19891]

http://www.endotext.org/pediatrics/pediatrics7/figures/text_html_m71b99ef0.jpg
Chapter 3. ANDROGEN PHYSIOLOGY: RECEPTOR AND METABOLIC DISORDERS

I understand that there are going to be other factors to be considered, but if DHT is partially responsible for prostate and penile development, wouldn't it stand to reason that some sort of transdermal form of it could increase penis size?

Or would it be like male pattern baldness? Perhaps there are a particular number of androgen receptors in the tissue, and once they've been agonised during puberty, increases in DHT past that threshold wouldn't stimulate new growth.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

http://www.endotext.org/pediatrics/pediatrics7/figures/text_html_m71b99ef0.jpg
Chapter*3.*ANDROGEN PHYSIOLOGY: RECEPTOR AND METABOLIC DISORDERS

I understand that there are going to be other factors to be considered, but if DHT is partially responsible for prostate and penile development, wouldn't it stand to reason that some sort of transdermal form of it could increase penis size?

Or would it be like male pattern baldness? Perhaps there are a particular number of androgen receptors in the tissue, and once they've been agonised during puberty, increases in DHT past that threshold wouldn't stimulate new growth.

In a normal person, circulating testosterone is converted to DHT quite efficiently in these tissues. In males with 5AR deficency however this DHT conversion does not happen and these people often have underdeveloped sex organs and pubic hair

I dont think adding DHT to your penis area is going to make any difference if you are a normal male.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Also the male penis does grow during puberty in response to androgens but this growth reaches a point and stops. What makes it stop I dont know. Someone out there is probably studying this because the financial implications of reversing this growth shutdown is enormous.

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

I thought about this a while back, and figured if a teen male....or even younger....took DHT injections or an oral or whatever....would that increase the growth since its taken in the formative years? supposedly the mothers DHT level is the major factor in the son's penis development no? this is the reason they tell women not to handle or take the anti-DHT pills on the market if they are pregnant (I think). You would figure at SOME POINT during the earlier years if a male took DHT it would have some sort of effect. But maybe it has something to do with the parents DHT levels only. Not that young kids should be taking this stuff, but in theory at least. Also many high schoolers DO take these substances, and they are still developing.....

 

[madchemist]

supposedly the mothers DHT level is the major factor in the son's penis development no?

No, the greatest influence is from the fetuses production of DHT. As PA mentioned, DHT can cause a faster acceleration of penile growth, but the ultimate length is genetically set.

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

No, the greatest influence is from the fetuses production of DHT. As PA mentioned, DHT can cause a faster acceleration of penile growth, but the ultimate length is genetically set.

well there goes that idea of young boys shooting up DHT lol. I thought of it about 5-7 years ago.....this kid I knew who was 17-18-19 during the time I knew him was taking all sorts of steroids....so I thought to myself, hey if he's taking DHT or getting elevated DHT would that not cause growth in that area at his age? Or even more so in younger guys? but guess not.

 

[J19891]

No, the greatest influence is from the fetuses production of DHT. As PA mentioned, DHT can cause a faster acceleration of penile growth, but the ultimate length is genetically set.

High fetal androgen exposure has been implicated in autism as well as homosexuality, so if what you said were true, nearly all autistics and gays would be swinging louisville sluggers. The most significant factor in determining penis size would be the HOX genes. Prenatal androgen exposure, as well as pubertal androgen exposure and likely growth hormone levels to a certain extent would all be relevant factors, but I don't think you could say that any of them has "the greatest influence".

 

[J19891]

Also the male penis does grow during puberty in response to androgens but this growth reaches a point and stops. What makes it stop I dont know. Someone out there is probably studying this because the financial implications of reversing this growth shutdown is enormous.

Do you think the tissues responsiveness to DHT exposure would have to do with androgen receptor density in the tissue?

 

[madchemist]

High fetal androgen exposure has been implicated in autism as well as homosexuality, so if what you said were true, nearly all autistics and gays would be swinging louisville sluggers. The most significant factor in determining penis size would be the HOX genes. Prenatal androgen exposure, as well as pubertal androgen exposure and likely growth hormone levels to a certain extent would all be relevant factors, but I don't think you could say that any of them has "the greatest influence".

It boggles my mind how confused you became after reading my last statement. Maybe WARBIRD will explain it to you?

 

[madchemist]

well there goes that idea of young boys shooting up DHT lol. I thought of it about 5-7 years ago.....this kid I knew who was 17-18-19 during the time I knew him was taking all sorts of steroids....so I thought to myself, hey if he's taking DHT or getting elevated DHT would that not cause growth in that area at his age? Or even more so in younger guys? but guess not.

It is a logical assumption.

Clinically, DHT is commonly given to male infants and toddlers for micropenis, and it gives them greater leverage for attaining their pre-set penile length, but usually always falls short (no pun intended). It's much the same story for GH/IGF-1 deficiency and height.

 

[kevinhy]

It boggles my mind how confused you became after reading my last statement. Maybe WARBIRD will explain it to you?

I dont think hes confused.

You said high fetal androgen exposure is the biggest influence on penis size.

High fetal androgen exposure is linked to diseases like adhd and autism if i recall correctly.

This would mean people with autism and ADHD have on average bigger dicks? lol

 

[madchemist]

I dont think hes confused.

You said high fetal androgen exposure is the biggest influence on penis size.

High fetal androgen exposure is linked to diseases like adhd and autism if i recall correctly.

This would mean people with autism and ADHD have on average bigger dicks? lol

You are both confused.

(Paraphrasing)

WARBIRD asked if maternal DHT was the biggest factor in penile developement.

I said that self-derived fetal DHT was the biggest factor in penile development.

This is clearly evident.

Without the Y chromosome/SRYgene/TDF/leydig cells/testosterone/5a-reductase/DHT, the genital tubercle and the urogentital sinus remain infantile despite all the genetic potential in the world.

DHT causes the acceleration of penile growth until a genetically set growth length as a fetus, and then later in puberty.

No where did I say that DHT can grow the penis past its genetic set point

...and therefore even if the fetus is bathed in DHT (as in your scenarios), the penis will not grow larger then its expected size.

i.e. Male infants born with 21a-hydroxylase deficiency have normal sized penises.

Similarly, from a pre-placental POV, male infants born to PCOS mothers also have normal sized penises.

 

[kevinhy]

WARBIRD asked if maternal DHT was the biggest factor in penile developement.

I said that self-derived fetal DHT was the biggest factor in penile development.

I must have skimmed over the post where you mentioned its the fetal production thats responsible. That makes more sense.

 

[mr.cooper69]

You are both confused.

(Paraphrasing)

WARBIRD asked if maternal DHT was the biggest factor in penile developement.

I said that self-derived fetal DHT was the biggest factor in penile development.

This is clearly evident.

Without the Y chromosome/SRYgene/TDF/leydig cells/testosterone/5a-reductase/DHT, the genital tubercle and the urogentital sinus remain infantile despite all the genetic potential in the world.

DHT causes the acceleration of penile growth until a genetically set growth length as a fetus, and then later in puberty.

No where did I say that DHT can grow the penis past its genetic set point

...and therefore even if the fetus is bathed in DHT (as in your scenarios), the penis will not grow larger then its expected size.

i.e. Male infants born with 21a-hydroxylase deficiency have normal sized penises.

Similarly, from a pre-placental POV, male infants born to PCOS mothers also have normal sized penises.

Pretty much this. DHT aids in morphological sexual differentiation (ducts along with AMH; external genitalia). Even though fetal DHT will result in the growth of the penis, the ultimate length is genetically set.

 

[J19891]

You are both confused.

(Paraphrasing)

WARBIRD asked if maternal DHT was the biggest factor in penile developement.

I said that self-derived fetal DHT was the biggest factor in penile development.

This is clearly evident.

Without the Y chromosome/SRYgene/TDF/leydig cells/testosterone/5a-reductase/DHT, the genital tubercle and the urogentital sinus remain infantile despite all the genetic potential in the world.

DHT causes the acceleration of penile growth until a genetically set growth length as a fetus, and then later in puberty.

No where did I say that DHT can grow the penis past its genetic set point

...and therefore even if the fetus is bathed in DHT (as in your scenarios), the penis will not grow larger then its expected size.

i.e. Male infants born with 21a-hydroxylase deficiency have normal sized penises.

Similarly, from a pre-placental POV, male infants born to PCOS mothers also have normal sized penises.

Now we're getting into semantics. Your exact words were "The greatest influence is from the fetuses production of DHT". That's simply not true for most people.


In the case of someone with 5a reductase deficiency, prenatal androgen exposure IS the most significant factor in determining penis size, because it's lacking and causing a near complete retardation of growth. With regards to the physiology of most people, prenatal androgen exposure/production would not be the most significant determining factor in penis size, it would be the HOX genes. That's like saying that the most important quality for an elite olympic sprinter to have would be to have 46 instead of 47 chromosomes, because otherwise he'd have down syndrome. Uh...yeah, obviously you're right, that's the limiting factor for people with a rare illness preventing them from becoming elite sprinters, but it's hardly the most significant factor determining actual sprinter's performance relative to other able bodied competitors.

Like I said, autistics and homosexuals have higher than average prenatal androgen exposure, and if the difference between a huge dick and a small one was prenatal androgen production, they'd all have 12 inch wangs. While impaired 5 alpha reductase synthesis results in deformity, that's not exactly a relevant factor for most people, so it's a bit strange to say that it has "the greatest influence".

Though again, I can see what you mean now that you've clarified, it's just an issue of semantics.

 

[madchemist]

Now we're getting into semantics. In the case of someone with 5a reductase deficiency, prenatal androgen exposure IS the most significant factor in determining penis size, because it's lacking and causing a near complete retardation of growth. With regards to the physiology of most people, prenatal androgen exposure/production would not be the most significant determining factor in relative penis size, it would be the HOX genes. That's like saying that the most important quality for an elite olympic sprinter to have would be to have 46 instead of 47 chromosomes, because otherwise he'd have down syndrome. Uh...yeah, obviously you're right, that's the limiting factor for people with a rare illness preventing them from becoming elite sprinters, but it's hardly the most significant factor determining actual sprinter's performance relative to other able bodied competitors.

Like I said, autistics and homosexuals have higher than average prenatal androgen exposure, and if the difference between a huge dick and a small one was prenatal androgen production, they'd all have 12 inch wangs. While impaired 5 alpha reductase synthesis results in deformity, that's not exactly a relevant factor for most people.

I'm fairly certain you have an extra 21 chromosome.

 

[J19891]

I'm fairly certain you have an extra 21 chromosome.

I'm fairly certain you have an inferiority complex, but hey, I guess that beats down syndrome right? Anybody seen my scooby-doo lunch box?

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I thought about this a while back, and figured if a teen male....or even younger....took DHT injections or an oral or whatever....would that increase the growth since its taken in the formative years? supposedly the mothers DHT level is the major factor in the son's penis development no? this is the reason they tell women not to handle or take the anti-DHT pills on the market if they are pregnant (I think). You would figure at SOME POINT during the earlier years if a male took DHT it would have some sort of effect. But maybe it has something to do with the parents DHT levels only. Not that young kids should be taking this stuff, but in theory at least. Also many high schoolers DO take these substances, and they are still developing.....

the mothers dht levels are the major factor in son's penis development? i dunno, maybe. i dont think its been documented

anything that screws up the in-utero hormone environment can potentially alter the sexual development of the fetus. This is why they tell women not to touch 5AR inhibitors. Researchers dont know the full implications of 5ar blockade on the fetus but surely there may be consequences in many parts of the body and brain

as far as kids or teenagers taking dht in an effort to fool the development of the penis.....i dunno man. If the penis is programmed to stop its growth at a certain point its probably gonna do that regardless.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

High fetal androgen exposure has been implicated in autism as well as homosexuality, so if what you said were true, nearly all autistics and gays would be swinging louisville sluggers. .

lots of things have been implicated so we cant make any conclusions in the area of cause and effect here. BTW, another correllation that has been found in homosexuality is the mothers cortisol levels. high cortisol connected to greater chance of homosexuality. it could be that high cortisol is the culprit and the elevated androgens are just a consequence of the high cortisol (because the mothers adrenals will be pumping out both cortisol and adrenal androgens)

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Do you think the tissues responsiveness to DHT exposure would have to do with androgen receptor density in the tissue?

You didnt preface your question with "Dear Mr. Obvious..."

Yes, one determinant of a tissues sensitivity to androgens is AR density, however it is not the only determinant

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I dont think hes confused.

You said high fetal androgen exposure is the biggest influence on penis size.

High fetal androgen exposure is linked to diseases like adhd and autism if i recall correctly.

This would mean people with autism and ADHD have on average bigger dicks? lol

uggghhh

high fetal androgen exposure (this is another sidebar) is related to a decreased 2D:4D ratio (ratio of index to ring finger). This has actually been used in science quite a bit to make correlations between fetal androgen exposure and adult phenotypes of behaviour and physiology. I dont think its been connected to penis size though

 

[Patrick Arnold]

No where did I say that DHT can grow the penis past its genetic set point

...and therefore even if the fetus is bathed in DHT (as in your scenarios), the penis will not grow larger then its expected size.

.

this pretty much sums it up and is what i expected

 

[J19891]

lots of things have been implicated so we cant make any conclusions in the area of cause and effect here. BTW, another correllation that has been found in homosexuality is the mothers cortisol levels. high cortisol connected to greater chance of homosexuality. it could be that high cortisol is the culprit and the elevated androgens are just a consequence of the high cortisol (because the mothers adrenals will be pumping out both cortisol and adrenal androgens)

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2004_Lutchmaya_etal_EHD.pdf
http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2002_manning_etal.pdf

True, but as long as the correlation exists statistically it would be fair to make that inference. I don't think that's actually the case, I was just pointing out the flaw in his logic (which turned out to be a flaw in his phrasing, or my reading, however you look at it) 'reductio ad absurdum'.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2004_Lutchmaya_etal_EHD.pdf
http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2002_manning_etal.pdf

True, but as long as the correlation exists statistically it would be fair to make that inference..

what inference?

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

I was always under the impression it was the maternal DHT that was the biggest factor.....I thought I read it somewhere, added to that the propecia or whatever commercials with their "pregnant women should not ingest or handle this medicine due to 'certain types of birth defects'"...which I assumed had to do with male genetalia development.....in addition, it seems the women in certain racial groups (that are supposed to have superior penis size) tend to be more built and/or "hairy" which made me think hmmm (black, spanish, italian etc). All this could be total nonsense, but just observations I guess.

 

[J19891]

That if prenatal androgen exposure were the primary determinant of penis size, autistics and gays would all have giant schlongs. It doesn't matter if the prenatal androgen exposure is what's causing them to be gay/autistic, since prenatal androgen exposure has been correlated with autism and homosexuality.

But again, I was just using that inference to expose the flaw in the logic of his statement that 'the fetuses production of DHT is the most significant factor' in determining penis size.

Interestingly though, The Kinsey report included a study that showed gay men to have longer than average penises, but the methodology was flawed.

 

[J19891]

I was always under the impression it was the maternal DHT that was the biggest factor.....I thought I read it somewhere, added to that the propecia or whatever commercials with their "pregnant women should not ingest or handle this medicine due to 'certain types of birth defects'"...which I assumed had to do with male genetalia development.....in addition, it seems the women in certain racial groups (that are supposed to have superior penis size) tend to be more built and/or "hairy" which made me think hmmm (black, spanish, italian etc). All this could be total nonsense, but just observations I guess.

The placenta acts as a barrier allowing the diffusion of nutrients, oxygen, etc but preventing the mother's blood supply from mixing with the fetuses directly. A woman with high testosterone wont necessarily bear a child with high testosterone (though I'd guess that they're more likely to produce one with hyperactive adrenals and therefore marginally higher test levels). So the mother's androgen levels will neither effect the child in a normal pregnancy, nor will they be predictive of her son's androgen levels.

And as for different ethnic groups packing, I played sports at an innercity highschool and I can tell you that's a complete lie.

 

[madchemist]

But again, I was just using that inference to expose the flaw in the logic of his statement that 'the fetuses production of DHT is the most significant factor' in determining penis size.

God you are dumb.

 

[mr.cooper69]

I was always under the impression it was the maternal DHT that was the biggest factor.....I thought I read it somewhere, added to that the propecia or whatever commercials with their "pregnant women should not ingest or handle this medicine due to 'certain types of birth defects'"...which I assumed had to do with male genetalia development.....in addition, it seems the women in certain racial groups (that are supposed to have superior penis size) tend to be more built and/or "hairy" which made me think hmmm (black, spanish, italian etc). All this could be total nonsense, but just observations I guess.

Differentiation of sexual morphology will be complete before maternal blood is circulating through the placenta.

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Veeeeeerrrrry interesting. I'm fine on the penis size issue, but I'd like to go back in a time machine and add GH or whatever where necessary to help give me more than 5' 8" height Make me feel better and tell me its predetermined in the fetus!

 

[J19891]

God you are dumb.

lol I think it's pretty funny/sad how you come on these boards to lord your intellect over everyone. Clearly you're just too knowledgeable to learn anything here and you treat contributing your knowledge like a chore, having to stoop down to the average hobbyist's level seems to sicken you. So tell me, what exactly do you come here for?

I told you before, I understand the point you were trying to make and it was legitimate. I misunderstood your post originally due to your ambiguous phrasing.

Stop trying to validate your own self-esteem by being a pompous jackass, that's not a sign of legitimate intelligence. If anything, it's a sign of a tiny dick, and in that case this really is the thread for you.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Veeeeeerrrrry interesting. I'm fine on the penis size issue, but I'd like to go back in a time machine and add GH or whatever where necessary to help give me more than 5' 8" height Make me feel better and tell me its predetermined in the fetus!

linear growth probably can be increased even in normal people with GH if its administered at the right time. You have to administer it before pubertal estrogens cause permanent epiphyseal closure (aromatase inhibitors can delay this)

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

linear growth probably can be increased even in normal people with GH if its administered at the right time. You have to administer it before pubertal estrogens cause permanent epiphyseal closure (aromatase inhibitors can delay this)

yeah I definitely had me some pubertal estrogen excess, that is for sure. started working out too young as well probably.....i think maybe as young as 15? I'm probably lucky I made it to 5' 8"............

 

[jgassen15]

Gay men do, on average, have longer, thicker penises than straight males. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10410197

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Gay men do, on average, have longer, thicker penises than straight males. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10410197

all that study really demonstrates is that gay men are more apt to report that their penises are bigger than straight men when asked

perhaps it was a male asking them?

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

all that study really demonstrates is that gay men are more apt to report that their penises are bigger than straight men when asked

perhaps it was a male asking them?

I suspect George Michael or Elton John had something to do with this "research".........

 

[DkGreek]

Also the male penis does grow during puberty in response to androgens but this growth reaches a point and stops. What makes it stop I dont know. Someone out there is probably studying this because the financial implications of reversing this growth shutdown is enormous.

It would undeniably make many people rich if it worked.

 

[jgassen15]

it is pretty subjective. Even if taken from antectdotal evidence from lovers, that midget I hooked up with would totally report my penis as 3 inches longer than it is.