Aromatase inhibitors and lower body musculature

J19891

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Sometimes my brain takes me for long hikes in the woods, and I tend to get lost occasionally. This is one of those times.

I've been thinking lately. Women tend to carry, at least from my observations, a more subtantial amount of relative body mass (both fat and muscle) below their waistline than men. They have a whole second X chromosome, so it's possible that this isn't entirely attributable to hormonal differences. Estrogen plays a role in determining the distribution of fat throughout the body, is it possible that it plays a similar role with regard to muscle?

I notice that fat guys (with a higher likelyhood of having high aromatase and therefore estrogen) tend to have proportionally bigger legs. Obviously they're carrying around more weight, so take that with a grain of salt.

Consider also that black males have been shown to have higher levels of estrogen, and they tend to have big legs (except for their calves and lower quads, but there are anthropological reasons for that).

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/92/7/2519.full

Personally, I had glandular gyno naturally as a kid. I'm strong all over, but my legs have always been huge even without training.

I've never taken any PH's or roids but I've played around with aromatase inhibitors and during that time, I've noticed that my gains in strength in lifts involving my legs have stymied somewhat. On the other hand my bench, overhead press and power curls have all soared.

Basically what I'm asking is, do you think that estrogen plays a role in influencing muscle distribution? I've got some circumstantial and anecdotal evidence that leads me to think so, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
 
itzDodge

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There is a thread on another forum suggesting that estrogen has little play actually, let me go find it and post up some of what they referrenced
 
itzDodge

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Aromatase enzyme expression is incredibly low skeletal muscle
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17018772

Daily conversion of testosterone is estrogen is ~0.3%, which takes place mostly in the brain, fat, and bones, with very little conversion taking place in skeletal muscle
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15083377

ER alpha and beta receptors are virtually absent in skeletal muscle
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11036937
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17132854
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17615392

There is no gender difference between the densities of ER receptors between men or women.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12618573

Manipulating estrogen levels has been proven to produce no effect on skeletal muscle hypertrophy in humans and animals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8976803
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12161047
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15160484
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16260975
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15917154
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12065171
Also as far as test boosters go

In a study comparing the effects of exogenous testosterone in elderly men versus younger adult men, the lowest concentration of injectable testosterone found to produce statistically significant increases in muscle mass was 125mg/wk which caused a 100% elevation in testosterone from baseline. Those individuals receiving 600mg of testosterone/week had elevations in plasma testosterone of ~800%, and also had the greatest amount of muscle mass increases.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562020
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content...512400002.jpeg
So any test booster that can attain increases of 100% will have a physical impact on lean mass gains, that doesn't even include some of the ergogenic benefits found in other ingredients in many test boosters.

This is generally why I recommend Triazole :D
 
J19891

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http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v95/n2/abs/6603258a.html


Yeah, but to prove or disprove this theory I feel like you would need long term research mapping relative mass of different muscle groups to determine if it actually had an effect on it's distribution. Estrogen influences the pattern of adipose hyperplasia, and I cant help but wonder if this might have some peripheral effect on the surrounding muscle tissue.
 
Patrick Arnold

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i have been interested in the possible influences of estrogen upon bodyfat distribution and musculature in adults for a long long time. and i have never really seen anything that makes me think it plays a role substantial enough so that manipulation of it would be worthwhile at all to a physique athlete for such purposes
 
Patrick Arnold

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http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v95/n2/abs/6603258a.html


Yeah, but to prove or disprove this theory I feel like you would need long term research mapping relative mass of different muscle groups to determine if it actually had an effect on it's distribution. Estrogen influences the pattern of adipose hyperplasia, and I cant help but wonder if this might have some peripheral effect on the surrounding muscle tissue.

that study is so easily explained

exemstane is androgenic
 
nattydisaster

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So any test booster that can attain increases of 100% will have a physical impact on lean mass gains, that doesn't even include some of the ergogenic benefits found in other ingredients in many test boosters.
Edit: If you are an elder male

In young males taking that dose they gained less than 2 kg lean mass in 20 weeks. No one knows how these people were really eating or training though. They could have just been playing Xbox, and doing leg press, and thats why they hardly gained any mass. 20 weeks is a long time

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/90/2/678/F4.expansion.html
 
Patrick Arnold

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So any test booster that can attain increases of 100% will have a physical impact on lean mass gains, that doesn't even include some of the ergogenic benefits found in other ingredients in many test boosters.

This is generally why I recommend Triazole :D
so if i take flutamide and my test levels go over 100 percent i will have an impact on lean mass?
 
itzDodge

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Edit: If you are an elder male

In young males taking that dose they gained less than 2 kg lean mass in 20 weeks. No one knows how these people were really eating or training though. They could have just been playing Xbox, and doing leg press, and thats why they hardly gained any mass. 20 weeks is a long time

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/90/2/678/F4.expansion.html
Exercise stimulus
The men were asked not to undertake resistance training or moderate
to heavy endurance exercise. These instructions were reinforced every
2 wk.
so no exercise?

so if i take flutamide and my test levels go over 100 percent i will have an impact on lean mass?
I guess I should have been less generic, when I refered to test boosters I meant the class of supplements generally labeled as such i.e. Triazole, Bio Forge, etc.
 
J19891

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i have been interested in the possible influences of estrogen upon bodyfat distribution and musculature in adults for a long long time. and i have never really seen anything that makes me think it plays a role substantial enough so that manipulation of it would be worthwhile at all to a physique athlete for such purposes
5_840826_L600.jpg

1z330i0.jpg

Barry-Sanders-alternate.jpg


Fat guys, black guys and women. What do they all have in common? Higher estrogen, and proportionally bigger legs.


http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/1/151.abstract
http://plasticsurgerybodycontouring.com/fat-distribution.html
 
Patrick Arnold

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I guess I should have been less generic, when I refered to test boosters I meant the class of supplements generally labeled as such i.e. Triazole, Bio Forge, etc.
ATD was (is) labelled as a test booster. And it has been shown to raise test well over 100 percent. Yet lean mass gains from it are not generally reported.

So its not as simple as you think. You cant necessarily extrapolate gains from a HPTA stimulator to gains from exogenous administration.
 
Patrick Arnold

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i know many fat guys with proportionally smaller legs. and black men as well

and women have bigger lower bodies due to the interaction of certain intrinsic genetic factors with the specific hormonal milieu that arises during puberty

but if you still think you are right then i will give you some injectable estradiol and you can be our case study
 
J19891

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i know many fat guys with proportionally smaller legs. and black men as well

and women have bigger lower bodies due to the interaction of certain intrinsic genetic factors with the specific hormonal milieu that arises during puberty

but if you still think you are right then i will give you some injectable estradiol and you can be our case study
photo-of-man-boobs.jpg


Let's do it. Hook me up bro!
 

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I did not have big legs when i started training, but they grew so quick, all i have todo is 2-3 sets of ass to grass heavy squats once per 3-4 weeks and not only maintain, but grow. I noticed dropping leg training for a year hardly shrunk them, except my glutes got smaller(thats ok. I prefer them smaller) but to my suprise, that year i suddenly put on alot of upperbody mass to match.
It seams, when i train legs, my upper body just wont grow.

I have naturally high estrogen levels, around max for males, always had. A wee bit gyno, nothing that bothers me. Not very visible, but i have a pebble sized glands. Guessing they would be annoying if i got down to 6-7 % bodyfat though. I also have high test leves, but moderate free test due to so much being converted to estrogen.

Otc Ai s like the novedex xt, pes erase, triazole etc works awsome for me du to this, lots of estrogen to block, and i instantly gain muscle and lose fat when i use them. The two latter works wonders for me.

For a friend of mine, who has low bf, and naturally very high test levels, they do nothing.

But as the thread suggests, seems like your theory on bigger thighs and higer estrogen applies to me... My legs grow from watching other people squat lol
 
T-Bone

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I'd be interested in how taking products that supposedly lower estrogen affect the immune system. Also I have read that lowering estrogen can raise so called "Bad" cholesterol and lower so called "good" cholesterol. What do you nerds think about that?
 
Patrick Arnold

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It seams, when i train legs, my upper body just wont grow.l

for most it seems to be the opposite. the old adage was if you wanna make your arms bigger than train legs more
 
Patrick Arnold

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I'd be interested in how taking products that supposedly lower estrogen affect the immune system. Also I have read that lowering estrogen can raise so called "Bad" cholesterol and lower so called "good" cholesterol. What do you nerds think about that?
yeah estrogens seems to be important for keeping hdl levels up. androgens the opposite
 
DkGreek

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Now I know why my mom was benching 90's at the gym today. :/
 

Profion

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Sorry but does any body know the name of the girl, with the squat text underneith ?
 
miniarnold

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I did not have big legs when i started training, but they grew so quick, all i have todo is 2-3 sets of ass to grass heavy squats once per 3-4 weeks and not only maintain, but grow. I noticed dropping leg training for a year hardly shrunk them, except my glutes got smaller(thats ok. I prefer them smaller) but to my suprise, that year i suddenly put on alot of upperbody mass to match.
It seams, when i train legs, my upper body just wont grow.

I have naturally high estrogen levels, around max for males, always had. A wee bit gyno, nothing that bothers me. Not very visible, but i have a pebble sized glands. Guessing they would be annoying if i got down to 6-7 % bodyfat though. I also have high test leves, but moderate free test due to so much being converted to estrogen.

Otc Ai s like the novedex xt, pes erase, triazole etc works awsome for me du to this, lots of estrogen to block, and i instantly gain muscle and lose fat when i use them. The two latter works wonders for me.

For a friend of mine, who has low bf, and naturally very high test levels, they do nothing.

But as the thread suggests, seems like your theory on bigger thighs and higer estrogen applies to me... My legs grow from watching other people squat lol


Why is it do you think that you have naturally high levels of estrogen just from high test ?, you say when you take AIs you loos fat and gain muscle do you also loose fluid retention and dry/harden up at all?
Im trying to learn a bit about AIs and their effect of estrogen on the body, i suspect i may have a little to much estrogen.
(interested as i have just posted up a thread in the supplement section about AIs and estrogen)
 
miniarnold

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posted my quote twice so edited it to this :261:
 
miniarnold

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So its not as simple as you think. You cant necessarily extrapolate gains from a HPTA stimulator to gains from exogenous administration.

Meaning you cant gain muscle with otc natural test boosters,
Or you can gain muscle but gains will obv be very modest compared to phs and steroids (exogeneus administration) ?
 
truthornothin

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Sorry but does any body know the name of the girl, with the squat text underneith ?
Yeah, I do, Mrs. Truth..Back OFF! lol

The above post was for humorous purposes only the Truth is not married to nor ever has been married to that girl. :)
 

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