Trenavar equilibrium

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    Trenavar equilibrium


    modifications of the A ring like methyl at C1 or saturation of C1-2 shift equilibrium from keto (dione) form to trenbolone

    yet trenavar has none of these

    only other viable option is the conjugation in trenavar and trenbolone. does the conjugation protect against oxidation of 17 hydroxyl???

    also i have practiced hydrogenation using the Hcube with a Pd catalyst if you're familiar with that machine. conjugation in trenavar seems subjective to hydrogenation.

    and lastly, the reduction of the 3 ketone...

    Please answer:

    1.) does conjugation in trenavar shift equilibrium from keto form to trenbolone?

    2.) is hydrogenation possible in trenavar before it makes it's way to trenbolone?

    3.) and what protects against the reduction of the 3 ketone

    i really don't see how trenavar produces the equivalence of a good amount of trenbolone with the possible 1 step backwards reactions im thinking are possible... and with no modification i know of which shifts equilibrium from (keto) dione form to trenbolone except conjugation but im not sure

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    modifications of the A ring like methyl at C1 or saturation of C1-2 shift equilibrium from keto (dione) form to trenbolone

    yet trenavar has none of these

    only other viable option is the conjugation in trenavar and trenbolone. does the conjugation protect against oxidation of 17 hydroxyl???

    also i have practiced hydrogenation using the Hcube with a Pd catalyst if you're familiar with that machine. conjugation in trenavar seems subjective to hydrogenation.

    and lastly, the reduction of the 3 ketone...

    Please answer:

    1.) does conjugation in trenavar shift equilibrium from keto form to trenbolone?

    2.) is hydrogenation possible in trenavar before it makes it's way to trenbolone?

    3.) and what protects against the reduction of the 3 ketone

    i really don't see how trenavar produces the equivalence of a good amount of trenbolone with the possible 1 step backwards reactions im thinking are possible... and with no modification i know of which shifts equilibrium from (keto) dione form to trenbolone except conjugation but im not sure
    trenbolone urinary metabolites are almost all 17-hydroxyls so the triene alteration apparently affects 17b-hsd equiblibrium (and maybe 17a-hsd too)

    there are no 3-oh metabolites either so triene must prevent their formation as well

    and the triene structure is not hydrogenated in the body apparently

    my question to you is why would you be messing around with chemically hydrogenating the stuff?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    trenbolone urinary metabolites are almost all 17-hydroxyls so the triene alteration apparently affects 17b-hsd equiblibrium (and maybe 17a-hsd too)

    there are no 3-oh metabolites either so triene must prevent their formation as well

    and the triene structure is not hydrogenated in the body apparently

    my question to you is why would you be messing around with chemically hydrogenating the stuff?
    im trying to form adione the champions way... lol jk, i was just looking at possible reactions trenavar can go through and why trenbolone would or would not be a major product. im not working with it.

    i will eliminate 3-keto reduction in trendione as there is no 3-oh metabolites in trenbolone

    that makes sense about the formation of mostly 17-hydroxyl metabolites. i can see why taking trendione would push towards reduction of the 17-ketone

    but wouldn't 17a-hsd and 17b-hsd compete for the 17-ketone? in this case, what favors the major product being trenbolone and not epitrenbolone?

    as for hydrogenation, why is trendione not hydrogenated the same way testosterone is to DHT from 5a-reductase? not to mention CH-CH oxidoreductases EC number 1.3 that are present in the body and capable of the process maybe even in the other rings no? what inhibits this from happening?
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    subd
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    I've also done fasting and doseing and felt grealt anabolicness , deffint hunger but I'm stronger than that keep full and vascular and strength gose up
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/177245-swollen87s-training-log.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    im trying to form adione the champions way... lol jk, i was just looking at possible reactions trenavar can go through and why trenbolone would or would not be a major product. im not working with it.
    sodium borohydride reduction done in cold dilute methanol would probably yield trenbolone in good purity
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    but wouldn't 17a-hsd and 17b-hsd compete for the 17-ketone? in this case, what favors the major product being trenbolone and not epitrenbolone?
    ?
    thats an unknown
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    as for hydrogenation, why is trendione not hydrogenated the same way testosterone is to DHT from 5a-reductase? not to mention CH-CH oxidoreductases EC number 1.3 that are present in the body and capable of the process maybe even in the other rings no? what inhibits this from happening?
    enzymes are highly specific for their target substates. If you make chemical changes to your substrate then the activity of the enzyme upon that substrate may dissapear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    sodium borohydride reduction done in cold dilute methanol would probably yield trenbolone in good purity
    or lithium aluminum hydride. i've thought about that but its not like i have an NMRI at my disposal to check myself.. only personal tool at my disposal is the bunsen burner lmao

    and i get why hydrogenation of trendione and even of trenbolone is unlikely

    question though, i understand a large portion of excreted metabolites are of the epimer 17a-ol... what enzyme is the source of the conversion 17b-ol to 17a-ol?

    only enzyme i can think of is 17a-hsd but that would only work on the dione... and at this point it doesn't make sense to think trenbolone goes to trendione which goes to 17a-ol through 17a-hsd... cuz if that's true that would be real bad for trenavar
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    now this is the kind of discussion I like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    or lithium aluminum hydride. i've thought about that but its not like i have an NMRI at my disposal to check myself.. only personal tool at my disposal is the bunsen burner lmao

    and i get why hydrogenation of trendione and even of trenbolone is unlikely

    question though, i understand a large portion of excreted metabolites are of the epimer 17a-ol... what enzyme is the source of the conversion 17b-ol to 17a-ol?

    only enzyme i can think of is 17a-hsd but that would only work on the dione... and at this point it doesn't make sense to think trenbolone goes to trendione which goes to 17a-ol through 17a-hsd... cuz if that's true that would be real bad for trenavar

    if people use it and it works than that is what will really matter. the metabolism details just are an unknown now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    if people use it and it works than that is what will really matter. the metabolism details just are an unknown now
    peachy
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    this urine analysis shows trendione to be a metabolite of trenbolone. 54% of the urine metabolites were 17a-oh, 17b-oh, and trendione... i don't have the ratios nor full access to this but i dont think oxidation of 17-oh is as unlikely as everyone is making it out...

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/037843479180517G

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    well maybe someone here has university account so they can get the full text
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    well maybe someone here has university account so they can get the full text
    Trenbolone.pdf

    lol, first time i tried to access these with my university account but i got it to work

    i've practiced simple chromatogrophy before where we just find Rf values so i know reading "quantity" of anything on the plate is not possible but i believe HPLC readings can tell you the quantity of a metabolite relative to others as i know it's used commonly in analytical chm

    if so, TBO (trendione) can be seen in the unconjugated fraction, sulfate fraction, and glucorinide fraction.

    glucorinide fraction makes up 54.7% of urine metabolites... TBO is found in the least amounts in this form (doesn't seem signifcant but technically might be because the glucorinides make up most of the metabolites)

    sulfate fraction makes up 20.9% of the urine metabolites... and TBO seems to be found in close amounts to beta-TBOH and alpha-TBOH (seems significant)

    unconjugated fraction makes up 24.4% of the urine metabolites... and TBO is found half as much as beta-TBOH and almost exact same amount as alpha-TAOH (seems significant)

    im pretty damn sure those HPLC fraction bar graphs are indicative of quantity... i hope

    edit: link wasn't working saved and attached it
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    love science direct

    great stuff here fellas.

    a little off topic here but patrick any chance of getting you to spill the beans on what you found in that trenadrol years ago?
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    Subbed. This stuff is very intriguing.
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    my conclusion on the metabolism of trendione in simple english...

    anything with {enzyme} is an enzyme and not a product or reactant just a catalyst

    it was thought that

    trendione + {17b-HSD} ---> trenbolone + {unknown enzyme} ---> epitrenbolone

    obv^ this way you get tons of trenbolone out of trendione before it's converted to it's epimer epitrenbolone and why everyone said the equilibrium is greatly in favor of trenbolone. this was looking good...

    what was not taken into account was trendione is a metabolite of trenbolone. this means some trendione will not move forward with the reaction. also what was lacking was 17a-hsd which can turn trendione directly into epitrenbolone. and we know that epitrenbolone is favored because it is the major metabolite so most of trendione will go directly to epitrenbolone.

    here is what it's looking like:

    trendione + {17b-hsd} + {17a-hsd} ---> epitrenbolone + trenbolone + trendione [some trendione will not react]

    this way^ you're obv getting less trenbolone, because now some trendione is not going forward, and you're most likely getting way more of the epimer
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    love science direct

    great stuff here fellas.

    a little off topic here but patrick any chance of getting you to spill the beans on what you found in that trenadrol years ago?

    i dont remember 100 percent but i think it was trenbolone

    there was more than one product that started with the prefix tren so i am confused. one of them had trenbolone
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    my conclusion on the metabolism of trendione in simple english...

    anything with {enzyme} is an enzyme and not a product or reactant just a catalyst

    it was thought that

    trendione + {17b-HSD} ---> trenbolone + {unknown enzyme} ---> epitrenbolone

    obv^ this way you get tons of trenbolone out of trendione before it's converted to it's epimer epitrenbolone and why everyone said the equilibrium is greatly in favor of trenbolone. this was looking good...

    what was not taken into account was trendione is a metabolite of trenbolone. this means some trendione will not move forward with the reaction. also what was lacking was 17a-hsd which can turn trendione directly into epitrenbolone. and we know that epitrenbolone is favored because it is the major metabolite so most of trendione will go directly to epitrenbolone.

    here is what it's looking like:

    trendione + {17b-hsd} + {17a-hsd} ---> epitrenbolone + trenbolone + trendione [some trendione will not react]

    this way^ you're obv getting less trenbolone, because now some trendione is not going forward, and you're most likely getting way more of the epimer



    you should take into consideration the metabolic stability of epitrenbolone. I know that epitestosterone is very stable compared to testosterone. epitest is produced in the body in a 1:20 ratio to testosterone. yet it is excreted in the urine in a ratio of 1:1

    i dont know if this means that looking at urinary epitrenbolone is misleading to what is going on in the blood but it is something that has to be considered. it could be that you have a decent amount of trenbolone in the body but then it eventually gets turned into epitren and thats what you see in the urine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    you should take into consideration the metabolic stability of epitrenbolone. I know that epitestosterone is very stable compared to testosterone. epitest is produced in the body in a 1:20 ratio to testosterone. yet it is excreted in the urine in a ratio of 1:1

    i dont know if this means that looking at urinary epitrenbolone is misleading to what is going on in the blood but it is something that has to be considered. it could be that you have a decent amount of trenbolone in the body but then it eventually gets turned into epitren and thats what you see in the urine
    i read a study measuring ratio of epiT to T for an adult to be about 1:10 and i think today excretion of T to epiT of 6:1 is still considered normal (in terms of doping)

    urinary metabolites would seem misleading if one was trying to establish quantities of natural testosterone metabolites in the body at a given time

    i really don't see how tren-->epitren... test cannot go to epitest... if anything, the dione-->epitren in lesser amounts than tren and then is excreted at greater amounts than tren. but if this is the case, tren-->dione in greater amounts since dione being the source of epitren

    f*cking weird lol

    i'll see if i can dig up anything on blood levels of tren/epitren/dione/etc in humans... lololol @ that but i have to try... i have gone too far down the rabbit hole at this point
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    i really don't see how tren-->epitren... test cannot go to epitest... if anything, the dione-->epitren in lesser amounts than tren and then is excreted at greater amounts than tren. but if this is the case, tren-->dione in greater amounts since dione being the source of epitren

    f*cking weird lol

    i'll see if i can dig up anything on blood levels of tren/epitren/dione/etc in humans... lololol @ that but i have to try... i have gone too far down the rabbit hole at this point
    test should be able to go to epitest. test --> adione ----> epitest

    Its said that 50% of epitest is of extragonadal origin and it must come from the action of 17a-HSD upon adione in tissues such as kidney where 17a-hsd is purported to be localized


    tren metabolism is certainly weird
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    test should be able to go to epitest. test --> adione ----> epitest

    Its said that 50% of epitest is of extragonadal origin and it must come from the action of 17a-HSD upon adione in tissues such as kidney where 17a-hsd is purported to be localized

    tren metabolism is certainly weird
    yea i meant test --/--> epitest directly... it needs to be the intermediate of adione first exactly how you have it

    i'm betting my nut sack trenbolone is the same way... tren--> trendione ----> epitren

    17a-hsd is localized in the kidneys of the mouse. the enzyme database (brenda) has the 17a-hsd purported to be in the liver, prostate, brain, and spleen in humans
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    thanks for the answer Patrick I assumed as much

    great back and forth here good to see some in depth discussions
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post

    trenbolone + {unknown enzyme} ---> epitrenbolone
    The enzyme is the 17B-sulfoconjugate. It reacts with many 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy steroids. You can read more about it here (look at dianabol's metabolism) http://www.clinchem.org/content/42/7/1001.full.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    i'll see if i can dig up anything on blood levels of tren/epitren/dione/etc in humans...
    yeah, stick to humans. Trenbolone metabolism is so variable among different species that rodent/cattle/horse metabolism is almost useless to us. for example http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00498258109045859?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bry17 View Post
    The enzyme is the 17B-sulfoconjugate. It reacts with many 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy steroids. You can read more about it here (look at dianabol's metabolism) http://www.clinchem.org/content/42/7/1001.full.pdf
    i have looked that paper up and down..

    trenbolone is not a 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy steroid. read the part with the subtitle 17a-hydroxylation of 17-keto-steroids. after oral consumption of testosterone, epitestosterone levels did not rise. and i read another study that showed consumption of adione resulted in a significant rise in epitest. trenbolone is a 17b-hydroxy just like testosterone and it looks as though it would not go through 17B-sulfoconjugate to produce its epimer. this same study theorizes the production of epitrenbolone through 17a-hsd and not 17B-sulfoconjugation.

    it seems 17-keto steroids are good substrates for 17a-hsd. and a 17-keto trendione surely is. i am certain that:

    trenbolone --> trendione ----> epitren ....and not trenbolone --> epitren... this means trenavar will go to epitren directly in some unknown amount (this is where i'm at now, trying to put together some figures to get a rough ratio of epitren/tren production from trenavar)


    Quote Originally Posted by Bry17 View Post
    yeah, stick to humans. Trenbolone metabolism is so variable among different species that rodent/cattle/horse metabolism is almost useless to us. for example http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00498258109045859?
    i have only been looking at humans. i attached that full article (Trenbolone.pdf) which went over urinary metabolites of consuming trenbolone in a human. as pat pointed out though urinary metabolites may be misleading if one is assessing quantity of metabolites to get a feel for the ratio of metabolites at equilibirum.

    i think it'll be damn near impossible to find an article assessing blood or plasma levels of metabolites of trenbolone consumption in humans because that will truly shed the light on this mystery, but one can hope lol. my search begins when i come back from my vacay (hope i dont get caught up in this on my vacay but it's very interesting lol) ..flights tmrow :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    trenbolone is a 17b-hydroxy just like testosterone
    and the similarities stop there. testosterone probably doesn't convert to epitest via sulfatase in any detectable amounts because it is so free to undergo oxidation (after all, adione is the major metabolite in many species).

    what this means for trenbolone will depend on how readily it may oxidize i suppose.



    i have only been looking at humans. i attached that full article (Trenbolone.pdf) which went over urinary metabolites of consuming trenbolone in a human. as pat pointed out though urinary metabolites may be misleading if one is assessing quantity of metabolites to get a feel for the ratio of metabolites at equilibirum.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8036900

    ^show's a hydroxylated metabolite as a major in human urine (presumably 16a-hydroxy trenbolone~~article is in chinese, i cant read it)

    I applaud you for trying to reach a conclusion, but without enough clinical/metabolic data we may never know if it's correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bry17 View Post
    The enzyme is the 17B-sulfoconjugate. It reacts with many 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy steroids. You can read more about it here (look at dianabol's metabolism) http://www.clinchem.org/content/42/7/1001.full.pdf
    it is true that this is how 17a-alkylated-17b-OH steroids epimerize to 17b-alkylated-17a-OH steroids but i am not sure if this has relevance to trenbolone and other non 17a-alkylated steroides
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    it is true that this is how 17a-alkylated-17b-OH steroids epimerize to 17b-alkylated-17a-OH steroids but i am not sure if this has relevance to trenbolone and other non 17a-alkylated steroides
    this study briefly compares the epimerization of them in a similar fashion, but doesn't specify tren's interaction with the sulfate as far as i can tell.


    17-Epimerization has been reported in humans, but is not a common metabolic pathway and is observed in the metabolism of 17a-methyl-l7 hydroxysteroids [32-35] and trenbolone [36].
    ^http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...6007609290146A



    so yea, it may be that the trendione intermediate is the source of the epimerization then. i guess that begs the question of whether the rearrangement at c-17 is unique to a tertiary hydroxyl rather than a secondary one. your guess is as good as mine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bry17 View Post


    ^http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...6007609290146A



    so yea, it may be that the trendione intermediate is the source of the epimerization then. i guess that begs the question of whether the rearrangement at c-17 is unique to a tertiary hydroxyl rather than a secondary one. your guess is as good as mine.

    i believe it probably is. first of all the tertiary structure simply cannot undergo oxidation to the 17ketone in the first place. second of all, when its 17b-oh gets sulfated you have a very good leaving group there because the intermediate species is stabilized by all those bonds (i think). i would need to see the mechanism but i am guesssing there is some sort of alkene like intermediate or tranistion state
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i believe it probably is. first of all the tertiary structure simply cannot undergo oxidation to the 17ketone in the first place. second of all, when its 17b-oh gets sulfated you have a very good leaving group there because the intermediate species is stabilized by all those bonds (i think). i would need to see the mechanism but i am guesssing there is some sort of alkene like intermediate or tranistion state
    you're right if the leaving group left and a carbocation was formed it is stabilized on tertiary carbons because more electron cloud density can be filled in for the c17+ charge. if it was a secondary carbon there can be multiple hydride shifts until the + charge is on a tertiary carbon.
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    talk about nerdy
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    lmao
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    i wanna learn how to talk like that
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    I've also done fasting and doseing and felt grealt anabolicness , deffint hunger but I'm stronger than that keep full and vascular and strength gose up
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    yea i meant test --/--> epitest directly... it needs to be the intermediate of adione first exactly how you have it

    i'm betting my nut sack trenbolone is the same way... tren--> trendione ----> epitren

    17a-hsd is localized in the kidneys of the mouse. the enzyme database (brenda) has the 17a-hsd purported to be in the liver, prostate, brain, and spleen in humans
    My understanding was also that 17a-hsd is likely located in the sex organs and kidneys. This might explain why test and epi test are produced naturally, but exogenously administered test renders no epi test. (Upon reaching tissues with 17a-hsd, it's already committed to other metabolic pathways.) We can at least infer from this that 17a-hsd isn't present at high levels, or isn't especially active in tissues other than testis and kidneys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason79 View Post
    My understanding was also that 17a-hsd is likely located in the sex organs and kidneys. This might explain why test and epi test are produced naturally, but exogenously administered test renders no epi test. (Upon reaching tissues with 17a-hsd, it's already committed to other metabolic pathways.) We can at least infer from this that 17a-hsd isn't present at high levels, or isn't especially active in tissues other than testis and kidneys.

    i think its secreted from the testes in a concentration of 1:20 compared to testosterone

    since epitestosterone undergoes little metabolism after being secreted, while testosterone undergoes extensive metabolism, what ends up in the urine is close to 1:1

    thus,if you inject a 20:1 mix of testosterone propionate / epitestosterone propionate you can fool the Test/Epi urine test. And this is what the east germans used to do. That was what the cream was based on, which used just transdermal free test/epi
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    waiting for something truely epic like that old school cream to come out. besides ibe's potential d-bol-like product currently being researched, i dont see anything amazing coming out.
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    This discussion blew my mind.

    Thanks.
    On the road to bench pressing 400 pounds Currently over 360...
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    so trendione and epitren are inactive metabolites and will not bind to/interact with the ar?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    so trendione and epitren are inactive metabolites and will not bind to/interact with the ar?

    that is what is believed yes
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    trendione is indeed binding to the AR it's more potent then thought. raising heart rate warm feeling all over and stim like feeling I would say it;s doing something would'nt you think?
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