Trenavar equilibrium

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    trenbolone is a 17b-hydroxy just like testosterone
    and the similarities stop there. testosterone probably doesn't convert to epitest via sulfatase in any detectable amounts because it is so free to undergo oxidation (after all, adione is the major metabolite in many species).

    what this means for trenbolone will depend on how readily it may oxidize i suppose.



    i have only been looking at humans. i attached that full article (Trenbolone.pdf) which went over urinary metabolites of consuming trenbolone in a human. as pat pointed out though urinary metabolites may be misleading if one is assessing quantity of metabolites to get a feel for the ratio of metabolites at equilibirum.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8036900

    ^show's a hydroxylated metabolite as a major in human urine (presumably 16a-hydroxy trenbolone~~article is in chinese, i cant read it)

    I applaud you for trying to reach a conclusion, but without enough clinical/metabolic data we may never know if it's correct.
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Bry17 View Post
    The enzyme is the 17B-sulfoconjugate. It reacts with many 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy steroids. You can read more about it here (look at dianabol's metabolism) http://www.clinchem.org/content/42/7/1001.full.pdf
    it is true that this is how 17a-alkylated-17b-OH steroids epimerize to 17b-alkylated-17a-OH steroids but i am not sure if this has relevance to trenbolone and other non 17a-alkylated steroides
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    it is true that this is how 17a-alkylated-17b-OH steroids epimerize to 17b-alkylated-17a-OH steroids but i am not sure if this has relevance to trenbolone and other non 17a-alkylated steroides
    this study briefly compares the epimerization of them in a similar fashion, but doesn't specify tren's interaction with the sulfate as far as i can tell.


    17-Epimerization has been reported in humans, but is not a common metabolic pathway and is observed in the metabolism of 17a-methyl-l7 hydroxysteroids [32-35] and trenbolone [36].
    ^http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...6007609290146A



    so yea, it may be that the trendione intermediate is the source of the epimerization then. i guess that begs the question of whether the rearrangement at c-17 is unique to a tertiary hydroxyl rather than a secondary one. your guess is as good as mine.
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Bry17 View Post


    ^http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...6007609290146A



    so yea, it may be that the trendione intermediate is the source of the epimerization then. i guess that begs the question of whether the rearrangement at c-17 is unique to a tertiary hydroxyl rather than a secondary one. your guess is as good as mine.

    i believe it probably is. first of all the tertiary structure simply cannot undergo oxidation to the 17ketone in the first place. second of all, when its 17b-oh gets sulfated you have a very good leaving group there because the intermediate species is stabilized by all those bonds (i think). i would need to see the mechanism but i am guesssing there is some sort of alkene like intermediate or tranistion state
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i believe it probably is. first of all the tertiary structure simply cannot undergo oxidation to the 17ketone in the first place. second of all, when its 17b-oh gets sulfated you have a very good leaving group there because the intermediate species is stabilized by all those bonds (i think). i would need to see the mechanism but i am guesssing there is some sort of alkene like intermediate or tranistion state
    you're right if the leaving group left and a carbocation was formed it is stabilized on tertiary carbons because more electron cloud density can be filled in for the c17+ charge. if it was a secondary carbon there can be multiple hydride shifts until the + charge is on a tertiary carbon.
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  6. talk about nerdy
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  7. i wanna learn how to talk like that
    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysgaining View Post
    I've also done fasting and doseing and felt grealt anabolicness , deffint hunger but I'm stronger than that keep full and vascular and strength gose up
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/177245-swollen87s-training-log.html

  8. Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    yea i meant test --/--> epitest directly... it needs to be the intermediate of adione first exactly how you have it

    i'm betting my nut sack trenbolone is the same way... tren--> trendione ----> epitren

    17a-hsd is localized in the kidneys of the mouse. the enzyme database (brenda) has the 17a-hsd purported to be in the liver, prostate, brain, and spleen in humans
    My understanding was also that 17a-hsd is likely located in the sex organs and kidneys. This might explain why test and epi test are produced naturally, but exogenously administered test renders no epi test. (Upon reaching tissues with 17a-hsd, it's already committed to other metabolic pathways.) We can at least infer from this that 17a-hsd isn't present at high levels, or isn't especially active in tissues other than testis and kidneys.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by jason79 View Post
    My understanding was also that 17a-hsd is likely located in the sex organs and kidneys. This might explain why test and epi test are produced naturally, but exogenously administered test renders no epi test. (Upon reaching tissues with 17a-hsd, it's already committed to other metabolic pathways.) We can at least infer from this that 17a-hsd isn't present at high levels, or isn't especially active in tissues other than testis and kidneys.

    i think its secreted from the testes in a concentration of 1:20 compared to testosterone

    since epitestosterone undergoes little metabolism after being secreted, while testosterone undergoes extensive metabolism, what ends up in the urine is close to 1:1

    thus,if you inject a 20:1 mix of testosterone propionate / epitestosterone propionate you can fool the Test/Epi urine test. And this is what the east germans used to do. That was what the cream was based on, which used just transdermal free test/epi
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  10. waiting for something truely epic like that old school cream to come out. besides ibe's potential d-bol-like product currently being researched, i dont see anything amazing coming out.

  11. This discussion blew my mind.

    Thanks.
    On the road to bench pressing 400 pounds Currently over 360...

  12. so trendione and epitren are inactive metabolites and will not bind to/interact with the ar?

  13. Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    so trendione and epitren are inactive metabolites and will not bind to/interact with the ar?

    that is what is believed yes
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  14. trendione is indeed binding to the AR it's more potent then thought. raising heart rate warm feeling all over and stim like feeling I would say it;s doing something would'nt you think?

  15. Quote Originally Posted by jason79 View Post
    My understanding was also that 17a-hsd is likely located in the sex organs and kidneys. This might explain why test and epi test are produced naturally, but exogenously administered test renders no epi test. (Upon reaching tissues with 17a-hsd, it's already committed to other metabolic pathways.) We can at least infer from this that 17a-hsd isn't present at high levels, or isn't especially active in tissues other than testis and kidneys.
    it is true that exogenously administered test does not increase epi test levels... but androstendione consumption does. this indicates 17a-hsd is probably active participant in the consumption of diones... like trenavar

    Quote Originally Posted by IBE View Post
    trendione is indeed binding to the AR it's more potent then thought. raising heart rate warm feeling all over and stim like feeling I would say it;s doing something would'nt you think?
    on the basis of it being an androgen yes it will bind... doesn't mean anything tho. any diones anabolic properties come from it's conversion to 17-oh... and i dont think you understand the issue

    it will move forward to trenbolone and have some noticeable anabolic properties through this pathway alone, but your write up is wrong in stating it will exclusively go to trenbolone (read thread). i'm not gonna buy trenavar from your company when your dosing vs price is based on wrong information...

    if your hypothesis were true, injectable trenbolone would be a moot point no? lol

  16. How about I send you 3 packs for you to run solo and I bet you will be say defferenly. then why do you feel it on the first day? I am talking real life here not paper you and I both know paper compared to real life pretty showed us all it;s not always right. I did not do the write up henry V did why don't you talked to him about this. I have taken tren at very high dosage and I can tell you that there is a high conversion with trendione or it;s active on it;s owne and then you are wrong. I can care less what you are saying but the results are going against what you are trying to to say.



    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    it is true that exogenously administered test does not increase epi test levels... but androstendione consumption does. this indicates 17a-hsd is probably active participant in the consumption of diones... like trenavar



    on the basis of it being an androgen yes it will bind... doesn't mean anything tho. any diones anabolic properties come from it's conversion to 17-oh... and i dont think you understand the issue

    it will move forward to trenbolone and have some noticeable anabolic properties through this pathway alone, but your write up is wrong in stating it will exclusively go to trenbolone (read thread). i'm not gonna buy trenavar from your company when your dosing vs price is based on wrong information...

    if your hypothesis were true, injectable trenbolone would be a moot point no? lol

  17. Quote Originally Posted by IBE View Post
    How about I send you 3 packs for you to run solo and I bet you will be say defferenly. then why do you feel it on the first day? I am talking real life here not paper you and I both know paper compared to real life pretty showed us all it;s not always right. I did not do the write up henry V did why don't you talked to him about this. I have taken tren at very high dosage and I can tell you that there is a high conversion with trendione or it;s active on it;s owne and then you are wrong. I can care less what you are saying but the results are going against what you are trying to to say.
    all im saying is trendione will go to trenbolone in lesser amounts than predicted so the dosing vs price you have up might be skewed in your favor aka we pay more for less. i'd love a chance to experiment with it and put the dosing question to the test. pm sent

  18. so far 45-60 mg is a good dose to start with for some reason it is very fast acting you will start feeling it on the first day. everyone is thinking 90mg and up but there is no need for that high of a dose, it is very potent at 60mg

  19. Quote Originally Posted by IBE View Post
    so far 45-60 mg is a good dose to start with for some reason it is very fast acting you will start feeling it on the first day. everyone is thinking 90mg and up but there is no need for that high of a dose, it is very potent at 60mg
    Id like to think my prediction on the dosing was pretty good.
    E-Pharm Rep... PM me with any questions or concerns

  20. Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    all im saying is trendione will go to trenbolone in lesser amounts than predicted so the dosing vs price you have up might be skewed in your favor aka we pay more for less. i'd love a chance to experiment with it and put the dosing question to the test. pm sent
    If you log this bro, Lemme know Ill sub (Doesn't have to be run on AM, just send me a PM)
    RecoverBro ELITE

  21. Quote Originally Posted by IBE View Post
    trendione is indeed binding to the AR it's more potent then thought. raising heart rate warm feeling all over and stim like feeling I would say it;s doing something would'nt you think?
    17-ketones really dont have much binding to the androgen receptor. i thought the idea was it converts to trenbolone, which does bind very strongly
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  22. Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    it is true that exogenously administered test does not increase epi test levels... but androstendione consumption does. this indicates 17a-hsd is probably active participant in the consumption of diones... like trenavar

    l
    injectable test is not a fair comparison to oral androstenedione. oral administration leads to different pattern of metabolites than injectable
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  23. Quote Originally Posted by IBE View Post
    How about I send you 3 packs for you to run solo and I bet you will be say defferenly. then why do you feel it on the first day? I am talking real life here not paper you and I both know paper compared to real life pretty showed us all it;s not always right. I did not do the write up henry V did why don't you talked to him about this. I have taken tren at very high dosage and I can tell you that there is a high conversion with trendione or it;s active on it;s owne and then you are wrong. I can care less what you are saying but the results are going against what you are trying to to say.

    you have taken oral trenbolone before?
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  24. No only injectable. it seems the conversion is pretty high for trendione or something esle is happening


    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    you have taken oral trenbolone before?
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