Milk Thistle and oral anabolics

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    Milk Thistle and oral anabolics


    Do you think that the mechanism by which milk thistle is a liver protectant actually reduces the acute toxicity to the liver oral anabolics cause?
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    Interested to hear PA's thoughts on this. From what i've read, the effectiveness of Milk Thistle on liver toxicity is very mild. NAC is much more comprehensive. I also have seen, and i think someone just posted it in the anabolics section, the study on Milk Thistle downregulating androgen receptors. Which is an issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nattydisaster View Post
    Do you think that the mechanism by which milk thistle is a liver protectant actually reduces the acute toxicity to the liver oral anabolics cause?
    thats what we hope

    but this is not something i have researched extensively
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    I know NAC and MT have shown to reduce AST and ALT after AST/ALT have been raised by alcohol or tylenol...but was not sure if any correlation could truly be made.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nattydisaster View Post
    Do you think that the mechanism by which milk thistle is a liver protectant actually reduces the acute toxicity to the liver oral anabolics cause?
    Iirc there's a study on rats given d-bol that showed less hepatotoxicity when they took their milk thistlez.
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    was it given to them oraly, or injection
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    I dont feel like starting another thread I feel like there should be more general threads where we can go into specifics opn the thread instead of starting a new one when every new questions come up

    that said,

    Guys have been saying saw palmetto is not good while using a dht derivative. Can you dispel this myth since people really take what you say as the truth or close to it?
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    I've read that docs use NAC in the hospital for Tylenol OD patients...
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Smeton View Post
    I dont feel like starting another thread I feel like there should be more general threads where we can go into specifics opn the thread instead of starting a new one when every new questions come up

    that said,

    Guys have been saying saw palmetto is not good while using a dht derivative. Can you dispel this myth since people really take what you say as the truth or close to it?

    bump on this one.this was a very good discussion over somewhere else years ago
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Smeton View Post
    I dont feel like starting another thread I feel like there should be more general threads where we can go into specifics opn the thread instead of starting a new one when every new questions come up

    that said,

    Guys have been saying saw palmetto is not good while using a dht derivative. Can you dispel this myth since people really take what you say as the truth or close to it?
    True, I'd like to hear your opinion on this as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Smeton View Post
    I dont feel like starting another thread I feel like there should be more general threads where we can go into specifics opn the thread instead of starting a new one when every new questions come up

    that said,

    Guys have been saying saw palmetto is not good while using a dht derivative. Can you dispel this myth since people really take what you say as the truth or close to it?

    i think SP might act more as an anti-inflammatory than a 5AR inhibitor

    thats what i read

    honestly i dont care enuff to look into it
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    I've read that docs use NAC in the hospital for Tylenol OD patients...
    yes, in massive amounts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

    yes, in massive amounts
    lol...
    Any idea what massive would be?
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    like 15 grams given IV. followed by maintanence doses of 5 grams or so every four hours

    really though, you could have looked this up just as easily as i did
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
    like 15 grams given IV. followed by maintanence doses of 5 grams or so every four hours

    really though, you could have looked this up just as easily as i did
    True thanks for the info you volunteered you wasted 10 seconds of your life on me? Not so bad is it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Smeton View Post
    I dont feel like starting another thread I feel like there should be more general threads where we can go into specifics opn the thread instead of starting a new one when every new questions come up

    that said,

    Guys have been saying saw palmetto is not good while using a dht derivative. Can you dispel this myth since people really take what you say as the truth or close to it?
    Nettle root is my choice for protecting the prostate when taking DHT based compounds, always works better and you don't carry the risk of bleeding due to lowered clotting factors from saw palmetto.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    True thanks for the info you volunteered you wasted 10 seconds of your life on me? Not so bad is it?
    i will waste ten seconds on thirty other people today too. it gets to be a drag after a while. but i suppose this is my fate
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    Quote Originally Posted by oufinny View Post
    Nettle root is my choice for protecting the prostate when taking DHT based compounds, always works better and you don't carry the risk of bleeding due to lowered clotting factors from saw palmetto.
    why even take anything?

    your prostate will be fine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    why even take anything?

    your prostate will be fine
    Maybe I like to pee pain free when I take them... and like to protect it. Can you back up why you think taking nothing is a smart option? I am all ears.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    Quote Originally Posted by oufinny View Post
    Maybe I like to pee pain free when I take them... and like to protect it. Can you back up why you think taking nothing is a smart option? I am all ears.
    i dont see the evidence that anabolic steroids lead to benign prostate hypertrophy. if you have the evidence than i too am all ears
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i dont see the evidence that anabolic steroids lead to benign prostate hypertrophy. if you have the evidence than i too am all ears
    I can't say if they do, all I know is I have prostate discomfort when taking DHT based products like AndroHard as an example. I take cheap nettle root and I have no more discomfort.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    Quote Originally Posted by oufinny View Post
    I can't say if they do, all I know is I have prostate discomfort when taking DHT based products like AndroHard as an example. I take cheap nettle root and I have no more discomfort.
    did you know that it has been shown that giving men DHT does not affect the prostate at all? Let me see if i can find the study
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    nn Intern Med. 2010 Nov 16;153(10):621-32.
    Long-term effects of dihydrotestosterone treatment on prostate growth in healthy, middle-aged men without prostate disease: a randomized, placebo-controlled trial.

    Idan A, Griffiths KA, Harwood DT, Seibel MJ, Turner L, Conway AJ, Handelsman DJ.
    Source

    Concord Hospital, ANZAC Research Institute, University of Sydney, Sydney, Australia.

    Abstract

    BACKGROUND:

    Benign prostatic hypertrophy increases with age and can result in substantially decreased quality of life for older men. Surgery is often required to control symptoms. It has been hypothesized that long-term administration of a nonamplifiable pure androgen might decreaseprostate growth, thereby decreasing or delaying the need for surgical intervention.
    OBJECTIVE:

    To test the hypothesis that dihydrotestosterone (DHT), a nonamplifiable and nonaromatizable pure androgen, reduces late-life prostate growth in middle-aged men.
    DESIGN:

    Randomized, placebo-controlled, parallel-group trial. (Australian New Zealand Clinical Trials Registry number: ACTRN12605000358640)
    SETTING:

    Ambulatory care research center.
    PARTICIPANTS:

    Healthy men (n = 114) older than 50 years without known prostate disease. Intervention: Transdermal DHT (70 mg) or placebo gel daily for 2 years.
    MEASUREMENTS:

    Prostate volume was measured by ultrasonography; bone mineral density (BMD) and body composition were measured by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry; and blood samples and questionnaires were collected every 6 months, with data analyzed by mixed-model analysis for repeated measures.
    RESULTS:

    Over 24 months, there was an increase in total (29% [95% CI, 23% to 34%]) and central (75% [CI, 64% to 86%]; P < 0.01) prostate volume and serum prostate-specific antigen level (15% [CI, 6% to 24%]) with time on study, but DHT had no effect (P > 0.2). Dihydrotestosteronetreatment decreased spinal BMD (1.4% [CI, 0.6% to 2.3%]; P < 0.001) at 24 months but not hip BMD (P > 0.2) and increased serum aminoterminal propeptide of type I procollagen in the second year of the study compared with placebo. Dihydrotestosterone increased serum DHT levels and its metabolites (5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol and 5α-androstane-3β,17β-diol) and suppressed serum testosterone, estradiol, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone levels. Dihydrotestosterone increased hemoglobin levels (7% [CI, 5% to 9%]), serum creatinine levels (9% [CI, 5% to 11%]), and lean mass (2.4% [CI, 1.6% to 3.1%) but decreased fat mass (5.2% [CI, 2.6% to 7.7%]) (P <0.001 for all). Protocol-specific discontinuations due to DHT were asymptomatic increased hematocrit (n = 8), which resolved after stopping treatment, and increased prostate-specific antigen levels (n = 3; none with prostate cancer) in the DHT group. No serious adverse effects due to DHT occurred.
    LIMITATION:

    Negative findings on prostate growth cannot exclude adverse effects on the natural history of prostate cancer.
    CONCLUSION:

    Dihydrotestosterone treatment for 24 months has no beneficial or adverse effect on prostate growth but causes a decrease in spinal but not hip BMD. These findings have important implications for the wider use of nonsteroidal pure androgens in older men.
    PRIMARY FUNDING SOURCE:

    BHR Pharma.
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    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2011 Feb;96(2):430-7. Epub 2010 Dec 22.
    Dihydrotestosterone administration does not increase intraprostatic androgen concentrations or alter prostate androgen action in healthy men: a randomized-controlled trial.

    Page ST, Lin DW, Mostaghel EA, Marck BT, Wright JL, Wu J, Amory JK, Nelson PS, Matsumoto AM.
    Source

    Division of Metabolism, Endocrinology, and Nutrition, University of Washington School of Medicine, Box 357138, 1959 NE Pacific Street, Seattle, Washington 98195, USA. page@u.washington.edu

    Abstract

    CONTEXT:

    Concern exists that androgen treatment might adversely impact prostate health in older men. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT), derived from local conversion of testosterone to DHT by 5α-reductase enzymes, is the principal androgen within the prostate. Exogenous androgens raise serum DHT concentrations, but their effects on the prostate are not clear.
    OBJECTIVE:

    To determine the impact of large increases in serum DHT concentrations on intraprostatic androgen concentrations and androgen action within the prostate.
    DESIGN:

    Double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled.
    SETTING:

    Single academic medical center.
    PARTICIPANTS:

    31 healthy men ages 35-55.
    INTERVENTION:

    Daily transdermal DHT or placebo gel.
    MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:

    Serum and prostate tissue androgen concentrations and prostate epithelial cell gene expression after 4 wk of treatment.
    RESULTS:

    Twenty-seven men completed all study procedures. Serum DHT levels increased nearly sevenfold, while testosterone levels decreased in men treated with daily transdermal DHT gel but were unchanged in the placebo-treated group (P < 0.01 between groups). In contrast, intraprostatic DHT and testosterone concentrations on d 28 were not different between groups (DHT: placebo = 2.8 ± 0.2 vs. DHT gel = 3.1 ± 0.5 ng/g; T: placebo = 0.6 ± 0.2 vs. DHT gel = 0.4 ± 0.1, mean ± se). Similarly, prostate volume, prostate-specific antigen, epithelial cell proliferation, and androgen-regulated gene expression were not different between groups.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    Robust supraphysiologic increases in serum DHT, associated with decreased serum T, do not significantly alter intraprostatic levels of DHT, testosterone, or prostate epithelial cell androgen-regulated gene expression in healthy men. Changes in circulating androgen concentrations are not necessarily mimicked within the prostate microenvironment, a finding with implications for understanding the impact of androgen therapies in men
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    of course these results do not necessarily translate to synthetic androgens like superdrol. The point i am trying to make here is that alot of the prostate fear we have is based on some false beliefs, and the subject is more complex than we think
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    did you know that it has been shown that giving men DHT does not affect the prostate at all? Let me see if i can find the study
    ive also read that in other places. what people dont realize is that high dht=ok, high dht+high e2=bad
    Noob looking for alot of guidance
    I've got a hold of some omnadren 250(is sustanon better?) and I'm pretty much clueless about steroids. All i know about it is that it easily aromatizes and it holds alot of water
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambulldog View Post
    ive also read that in other places. what people dont realize is that high dht=ok, high dht+high e2=bad
    serum estrogen is much more correlative with BPH than DHT is

    And i dont think you need high DHT along with it. I dont think circulating DHT really means anything with the prostate. Look at the second study i posted - despite DHT serum levels being massively elevated it did not change the actual androgen levels in the prostate itself
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    i am not sure its possible to have high serum dht and high estrogen at the same time. it would be an odd situation. the two are quite antagonistic to one another
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    did you know that it has been shown that giving men DHT does not affect the prostate at all? Let me see if i can find the study
    I guess the question is why when I take DHT based hormones is there discomfort in the prostate? Thanks for posting the studies by the way, I am going to read through them shortly. I trust your judgment I am just stating that this is what I experience when I take them (I have had others confirm this as well).
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    Quote Originally Posted by oufinny View Post
    I guess the question is why when I take DHT based hormones is there discomfort in the prostate? Thanks for posting the studies by the way, I am going to read through them shortly. I trust your judgment I am just stating that this is what I experience when I take them (I have had others confirm this as well).
    maybe you dont masturbate enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    maybe you dont masturbate enough
    lol.... interesting reads
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    Milk Thistle is always a better option than taking nothing at all.
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    guys from the seventies, like Robby Robinson, took Milk thistle when he used gear.
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