Topical DHEA Question

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    Topical DHEA Question


    In regards to topical DHEA products like Dermacrine and Transaderm, when one applies a product like the aforementioned to the chest/abs is there really a higher conversion rate to estrogen? I've read this in a few places and was unsure of the validity. I understand that the products are intended to be applied to the shoulder/upper back mainly but both products, if I am not mistaken, have an application area on the bottle that covers the chest.

    Thanks.
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    hmm, good question.

    i wouldn't think so though
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    IMO no......and if there was it would be negligible.
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    I read somewhere the abdomen are is “highest conversion rate” but i`m not sure
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwa254 View Post
    In regards to topical DHEA products like Dermacrine and Transaderm, when one applies a product like the aforementioned to the chest/abs is there really a higher conversion rate to estrogen? I've read this in a few places and was unsure of the validity. I understand that the products are intended to be applied to the shoulder/upper back mainly but both products, if I am not mistaken, have an application area on the bottle that covers the chest.

    Thanks.

    there is more aromatase in breast area than other areas of course. But other than that, I dunno if i can definitively answer this question
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwa254 View Post
    In regards to topical DHEA products like Dermacrine and Transaderm, when one applies a product like the aforementioned to the chest/abs is there really a higher conversion rate to estrogen? I've read this in a few places and was unsure of the validity. I understand that the products are intended to be applied to the shoulder/upper back mainly but both products, if I am not mistaken, have an application area on the bottle that covers the chest.

    Thanks.

    why are you using dhea anyway?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    why are you using dhea anyway?
    I haven't yet. I was looking more towards the future. I ordered a couple bottles of Transaderm the other day when it was on sale. I figured they'd be useful when (and if) I begin cycling. However, I'm still a few years off of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwa254 View Post
    I haven't yet. I was looking more towards the future. I ordered a couple bottles of Transaderm the other day when it was on sale. I figured they'd be useful when (and if) I begin cycling. However, I'm still a few years off of that.

    I think the 7-oxygenated dhea metabolites are great stuff. I dont understand why anyone would wanna mess with dhea itself though, given the fact that it can yield estrogen related sides
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I think the 7-oxygenated dhea metabolites are great stuff. I dont understand why anyone would wanna mess with dhea itself though, given the fact that it can yield estrogen related sides
    I'll look into those. 7-oxo, yeah? I figured dhea was good stuff considering the wealth of dermacrine/transaderma users out there. I'll do some more research on it though before I come to a conclusion. I am considering purchasing that Ursobolic you're company has out though. I'm just waiting on some more feedback to come in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I think the 7-oxygenated dhea metabolites are great stuff. I dont understand why anyone would wanna mess with dhea itself though, given the fact that it can yield estrogen related sides
    Would natural anti-estrogens combat this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by holmes215 View Post
    Would natural anti-estrogens combat this?
    Good question, I planned on stacking Transderm with Formestane or Androhard. I really liked Dermacrine, never tried 7oxo.....I'll have to look into it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    why are you using dhea anyway?
    epistane gives me joint pain. oral dhea stops it completely.do u think this is from the estrogen conversion or something else? it isn't aggravating my gyno, yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwa254 View Post
    I'll look into those. 7-oxo, yeah? I figured dhea was good stuff considering the wealth of dermacrine/transaderma users out there. I'll do some more research on it though before I come to a conclusion. I am considering purchasing that Ursobolic you're company has out though. I'm just waiting on some more feedback to come in.
    there are many active 7-oxygenated dhea metabolites. 7-keto dhea, beta-AET, 7-hydroxy dhea are all currently sold as supps. There are others too, that as far as i know are not yet sold as supps. They all possess (to varying degrees) the thermogenic, immunostimulant, and anti-catabolic activities of DHEA without any of the sex hormone related concerns
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    Quote Originally Posted by holmes215 View Post
    Would natural anti-estrogens combat this?
    SERMs might, but AIs probably not so much. That is cuz most of DHEAs estrogenic potential is manifested through the metabolite 5-androstenediol, which is an non aromatic estrogenic substance. Blocking aromatase will do nothing to prevent its build up
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebelhead View Post
    epistane gives me joint pain. oral dhea stops it completely.do u think this is from the estrogen conversion or something else? it isn't aggravating my gyno, yet.

    the theory on estrogen depletion being responsible for joint pain is IMO very weak. I just cant buy it
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    Doesn't dhea help with body comp via having more test conversion via starting off higher on the hormonal cascade. I know this would lead to higher estrogen as well too but if all your ducks were
    In a row wouldn't it partition more to testosterone? If not wouldn't dhea be a very bad supp to take for most young athletes with normal hormonal levels?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    Doesn't dhea help with body comp via having more test conversion via starting off higher on the hormonal cascade. I know this would lead to higher estrogen as well too but if all your ducks were
    In a row wouldn't it partition more to testosterone? If not wouldn't dhea be a very bad supp to take for most young athletes with normal hormonal levels?
    the research on dhea shows that it does not elevate testosterone effectively, even at quite high dosages.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the research on dhea shows that it does not elevate testosterone effectively, even at quite high dosages.
    the key enzymatic step - 3b-HSD 5,4 isomerase - just seems to be too tightly regulated to allow much conversion to take place
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the key enzymatic step - 3b-HSD 5,4 isomerase - just seems to be too tightly regulated to allow much conversion to take place
    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1999 Jun;84(6):2170-6.
    Biotransformation of oral dehydroepiandrosterone in elderly men: significant increase in circulating estrogens.
    Arlt W, Haas J, Callies F, Reincke M, Hübler D, Oettel M, Ernst M, Schulte HM, Allolio B.
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    Department of Endocrinology, Medical University Hospital Wuerzburg, Germany.
    Abstract
    The most abundant human steroids, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and its sulfate ester DHEAS, may have a multitude of beneficial effects, but decline with age. DHEA possibly prevents immunosenescence, and as a neuroactive steroid it may influence processes of cognition and memory. Epidemiological studies revealed an inverse correlation between DHEAS levels and the incidence of cardiovascular disease in men, but not in women. To define a suitable dose for DHEA substitution in elderly men we studied pharmacokinetics and biotransformation of orally administered DHEA in 14 healthy male volunteers (mean age, 58.8 +/- 5.1 yr; mean body mass index, 25.5 +/- 1.5 kg/m2) with serum DHEAS concentrations below 4.1 micromol/L (1500 ng/mL). Diurnal blood sampling was performed on 3 occasions in a single dose, randomized, cross-over design (oral administration of placebo, 50 mg DHEA, or 100 mg DHEA). The intake of 50 mg DHEA led to an increase in serum DHEAS to mean levels of young adult men, whereas 100 mg DHEA induced supraphysiological concentrations [placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; area under the curve (AUC) 0-12 h (mean +/- SD) for DHEA, 108 +/- 22 vs. 252 +/- 45 vs. 349 +/- 72 nmol/L x h; AUC 0-12 h for DHEAS, 33 +/- 9 vs. 114 +/- 19 vs. 164 +/- 36 micromol/L x h]. Serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone remained unchanged after DHEA administration. In contrast, 17beta-estradiol and estrone significantly increased in a dose-dependent manner to concentrations still within the upper normal range for men [placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; AUC 0-12 h for 17beta-estradiol, 510 +/- 198 vs. 635 +/- 156 vs. 700 +/- 209 pmol/L x h (P < 0.0001); AUC 0-12 h for estrone, 1443 +/- 269 vs. 2537 +/- 434 vs. 3254 +/- 671 pmol/L x h (P < 0.0001)]. In conclusion, 50 mg DHEA seems to be a suitable substitution dose in elderly men, as it leads to serum DHEAS concentrations usually measured in young healthy adults. The DHEA-induced increase in circulating estrogens may contribute to beneficial effects of DHEA in men.

    PMID: 10372727 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text
    Publication Types, MeSH Terms, Substances
    Looks like its much better at increasing estrogen than testosterone
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    So what's the deal then with the transdermal DHEA products everyone seems to rave about (dermacrine and RS-transaderm) ?

    It seems like ppl are experiencing real world effects, but the logic in this thread would suggest it's not likely..
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    Looks like its much better at increasing estrogen than testosterone

    It seems very strange to me that it would increase estrogens without increasing testosterone. that is because it really has to go through testosterone (or adione) to get to estrone or estradiol. Maybe DHEA is upregulating aromatase expression? Anyway, it just doesnt seem like a good idea to mess with dhea if you are a dude.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

    the theory on estrogen depletion being responsible for joint pain is IMO very weak. I just cant buy it
    Why do ai's cause some peoples joints to hurt in your opinion I always thought it was estrogen related. Because the opposite is true when I'm on something like say bold.
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    Quote Originally Posted by freefall365 View Post
    So what's the deal then with the transdermal DHEA products everyone seems to rave about (dermacrine and RS-transaderm) ?

    It seems like ppl are experiencing real world effects, but the logic in this thread would suggest it's not likely..

    these products contain other ingredients, no?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    these products contain other ingredients, no?
    7,8 Benzoflavone (36mg), Resveratrol (36mg), Pregnenolone (18mg), and Chrysin (9mg) are also included. Would these ingredients counter any negative effects of DHEA?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

    these products contain other ingredients, no?

    Active Ingredients:

    Active ingredients per 5 pumps

    DHEA ? 72mg
    7,8-Benzoflavone (99%) ? 36mg
    Resveratrol (99%) ? 36mg
    Pregnenolone - 18mg
    Chrysin (99%) ? 9mg
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwa254

    7,8 Benzoflavone (36mg), Resveratrol (36mg), Pregnenolone (18mg), and Chrysin (9mg) are also included. Would these ingredients counter any negative effects of DHEA?
    Beat me to it.
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    Very intriguing. I will be running a log on RS transaderm. I hope I don't turn into a girl. Lol.

    Might this be a good supp to run along something suppressive though? Like as a base? Bring something good on the lower end of the hormone cascade and replenish top end at the dhea level to keep hormones up? Though I read that dhea will keep libido up, and libido is primarily estrogen related... Meh I'm no endocrinologist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    why are you using dhea anyway?
    ha this has been my sentiments exactly regarding all these DHEA products...

    4-DHEA, 1-DHEA, those are different... but come on.... whos out there really buying up DHEA at 50-60 bucks a bottle when you can get grams of the stuff in powder for a few dollars and it will still be just as pointless unless your in a severely deficient hormonal state.... in that case you should be on TRT anyways.
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    you want a test base then get test or a directly converting prohormone to test.... DHEA is not that and has so many other metabolites and down stream effects that cant be fully mitigated by other "checks and balances" to be worth while.

    Look into a few of the products out now containing 4-AD(hea) or get some real test.
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    this is a very interesting topic. Sourdough you ask "who's really out there buying up DHEA anyway" and the answer is tons of ppl swear buy such DHEA products.

    I know ppl who train and ran dermacrine who definitely achieved tighter/denser muscle mass (albeit not drastic but seemingly real effects) and reported hightened sense of well being. I know without bloodwork such a experience is hard to quantify, but still... Makes one wonder where this suggested increase of male hormone came from if DHEA really isn't for guys as is suggested.
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    Quote Originally Posted by freefall365 View Post
    this is a very interesting topic. Sourdough you ask "who's really out there buying up DHEA anyway" and the answer is tons of ppl swear buy such DHEA products.

    I know ppl who train and ran dermacrine who definitely achieved tighter/denser muscle mass (albeit not drastic but seemingly real effects) and reported hightened sense of well being. I know without bloodwork such a experience is hard to quantify, but still... Makes one wonder where this suggested increase of male hormone came from if DHEA really isn't for guys as is suggested.
    Agreed. This is just perplexing. I realize there are other ingredients aside from DHEA in these products like dermacrine and transaderm, but there's no way those ingredients alone counterbalance these seemingly negative impacts of DHEA AND contribute to muscle mass.

    *shrugs* ah well.
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    this study seems to show that dhea itself binds to the androgen receptor

    http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...760(06)00039-2
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebelhead
    this study seems to show that dhea itself binds to the androgen receptor

    http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...760(06)00039-2
    Others show it bind directly to the estrogen receptor as well....
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    Quote Originally Posted by freefall365
    this is a very interesting topic. Sourdough you ask "who's really out there buying up DHEA anyway" and the answer is tons of ppl swear buy such DHEA products.

    I know ppl who train and ran dermacrine who definitely achieved tighter/denser muscle mass (albeit not drastic but seemingly real effects) and reported hightened sense of well being. I know without bloodwork such a experience is hard to quantify, but still... Makes one wonder where this suggested increase of male hormone came from if DHEA really isn't for guys as is suggested.
    I wasn't asking any such question????

    I know plenty if people run dhea.... To what end result besides "feeling better" idk and neither do they unless they get bloods done....

    Theirs tons of studies available showing it increases estrogen CONSIDERABLY and does a fairly poor job at increasing testosterone.

    My previous statement stands that 4-dhea is a different story and what guys should be running... I def wouldn't be spending 60 bucks on dhea, res, preg and chrysin.... Dhea is CHEAP, td carriers are CHEAP.... idk why these products are so expensive and aren't anything special.....

    4-dhea is even fairly over priced in the forms that its available right now

    Point is moot anyhow, I have some good old 4ad powder still stocked up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    I wasn't asking any such question????

    I know plenty if people run dhea.... To what end result besides "feeling better" idk and neither do they unless they get bloods done....

    Theirs tons of studies available showing it increases estrogen CONSIDERABLY and does a fairly poor job at increasing testosterone.

    My previous statement stands that 4-dhea is a different story and what guys should be running... I def wouldn't be spending 60 bucks on dhea, res, preg and chrysin.... Dhea is CHEAP, td carriers are CHEAP.... idk why these products are so expensive and aren't anything special.....

    4-dhea is even fairly over priced in the forms that its available right now

    Point is moot anyhow, I have some good old 4ad powder still stocked up.
    Omg 4ad....
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    Quote Originally Posted by holmes215 View Post
    Would natural anti-estrogens combat this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    SERMs might, but AIs probably not so much. That is cuz most of DHEAs estrogenic potential is manifested through the metabolite 5-androstenediol, which is an non aromatic estrogenic substance. Blocking aromatase will do nothing to prevent its build up
    Def good convo in here...PA, ATD being pretty potent (which If I'm not mistaken, binds to the site of the aromatase enzyme & renders it inactive)...would you think 25mg/day would be the next best thing to a SERM....or not so much?
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    Quote Originally Posted by schizm

    Def good convo in here...PA, ATD being pretty potent (which If I'm not mistaken, binds to the site of the aromatase enzyme & renders it inactive)...would you think 25mg/day would be the next best thing to a SERM....or not so much?
    I would doubt so... Its still not blocking anything at the ER itself. That's what is absolutely essential to block dhea's estrogenic effects since dhea and a few of its metabolites have direct interactions with the ER and no amount of aromatase blocking will stop those interactions.

    In fact in a study I just read....

    http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf

    It shows that males administered 50mg for DHEA 6 days in a TD gel showed no significant increased in either estrogen OR testosterone, just dhea and its metabolite dheas.... Until they did the follow up blood draws 5 weeks after ceasing the dose.

    This showed a 50% increase in testosterone had occurred from the downstream cascade of enzymatic conversions from dhea built up in the body.... One could only assume this number would increase if dose was increased and prolonged beyond 6 days just like in a typical cycle.

    This would all be good and fine, except for one thing. Estrogen also had an increase in those 5 weeks after only 6 days of dhea administration.... 300% over baseline values..... Imagine what a 4-8 week cycle would yield?

    Not exactly ideal.

    This also adds a new worry of wether or not if even a 4 week SERM based pct would be adequate considering the build up of dhea and constant downstream conversions that would occur weeks after a cycle.....

    So yes one could run a SERM through their 4-8 week cycle to prevent negative interactions but would also have to continue to run it weeks beyond a normal length pct and would prob be well suited to run an AI along the entire run as well so once the SERM is ceased there isn't just a flood of estrogen waiting to bombard the unlocked receptors.... So much for liver friendliness at that point.
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    ^Great post and info in this thread, I will be staying away from dhea for now on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    I would doubt so... Its still not blocking anything at the ER itself. That's what is absolutely essential to block dhea's estrogenic effects since dhea and a few of its metabolites have direct interactions with the ER and no amount of aromatase blocking will stop those interactions.

    In fact in a study I just read....

    http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf

    It shows that males administered 50mg for DHEA 6 days in a TD gel showed no significant increased in either estrogen OR testosterone, just dhea and its metabolite dheas.... Until they did the follow up blood draws 5 weeks after ceasing the dose.

    This showed a 50% increase in testosterone had occurred from the downstream cascade of enzymatic conversions from dhea built up in the body.... One could only assume this number would increase if dose was increased and prolonged beyond 6 days just like in a typical cycle.

    This would all be good and fine, except for one thing. Estrogen also had an increase in those 5 weeks after only 6 days of dhea administration.... 300% over baseline values..... Imagine what a 4-8 week cycle would yield?

    Not exactly ideal.

    This also adds a new worry of wether or not if even a 4 week SERM based pct would be adequate considering the build up of dhea and constant downstream conversions that would occur weeks after a cycle.....

    So yes one could run a SERM through their 4-8 week cycle to prevent negative interactions but would also have to continue to run it weeks beyond a normal length pct and would prob be well suited to run an AI along the entire run as well so once the SERM is ceased there isn't just a flood of estrogen waiting to bombard the unlocked receptors.... So much for liver friendliness at that point.
    Holy crap.
    I think I'll be picking up some estrogen control for my cycle of transaderm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    I would doubt so... Its still not blocking anything at the ER itself. That's what is absolutely essential to block dhea's estrogenic effects since dhea and a few of its metabolites have direct interactions with the ER and no amount of aromatase blocking will stop those interactions.

    In fact in a study I just read....

    http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf

    It shows that males administered 50mg for DHEA 6 days in a TD gel showed no significant increased in either estrogen OR testosterone, just dhea and its metabolite dheas.... Until they did the follow up blood draws 5 weeks after ceasing the dose.

    This showed a 50% increase in testosterone had occurred from the downstream cascade of enzymatic conversions from dhea built up in the body.... One could only assume this number would increase if dose was increased and prolonged beyond 6 days just like in a typical cycle.

    This would all be good and fine, except for one thing. Estrogen also had an increase in those 5 weeks after only 6 days of dhea administration.... 300% over baseline values..... Imagine what a 4-8 week cycle would yield?

    Not exactly ideal.

    This also adds a new worry of wether or not if even a 4 week SERM based pct would be adequate considering the build up of dhea and constant downstream conversions that would occur weeks after a cycle.....

    So yes one could run a SERM through their 4-8 week cycle to prevent negative interactions but would also have to continue to run it weeks beyond a normal length pct and would prob be well suited to run an AI along the entire run as well so once the SERM is ceased there isn't just a flood of estrogen waiting to bombard the unlocked receptors.... So much for liver friendliness at that point.
    Definitely informative. However, it should probably be noted this was just with DHEA, right?

    I went and did some more searching and found this quote from a Dermacrine write-up:

    "Still, DHEA and Pregnenolone can eventually convert to estrogen through interaction with the aromatase enzyme (CYP 19). Excessive estrogen can inhibit the hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis (HTPA), and increase fat deposits and water retention41. Fortunately, Dermacrine limits estrogen synthesis by including the Phyto Aromatase Inhibitor (Phyto AI) complex, consisting of three potent plant based aromatase inhibitors, namely 7,8 Benzoflavone, Chrysin and resveratrol.42,43 These flavonoids directly compete with aromatizing androgens for interaction with the aromatase enzyme as well as inhibit the production of the aromatase enzyme itself.44,45 As a result, estrogen is kept down , and the steroidogenic enzymes are kept up, therefore making Dermcrine one complete hormone rejuvenator."

    So the Benzoflavone, Chrysin, and resveratrol supposedly keep the estrogen down. Thoughts?
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