Topical DHEA Question

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by freefall365 View Post
    this is a very interesting topic. Sourdough you ask "who's really out there buying up DHEA anyway" and the answer is tons of ppl swear buy such DHEA products.

    I know ppl who train and ran dermacrine who definitely achieved tighter/denser muscle mass (albeit not drastic but seemingly real effects) and reported hightened sense of well being. I know without bloodwork such a experience is hard to quantify, but still... Makes one wonder where this suggested increase of male hormone came from if DHEA really isn't for guys as is suggested.
    Agreed. This is just perplexing. I realize there are other ingredients aside from DHEA in these products like dermacrine and transaderm, but there's no way those ingredients alone counterbalance these seemingly negative impacts of DHEA AND contribute to muscle mass.

    *shrugs* ah well.


  2. this study seems to show that dhea itself binds to the androgen receptor

    http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...760(06)00039-2
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by rebelhead
    this study seems to show that dhea itself binds to the androgen receptor

    http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...760(06)00039-2
    Others show it bind directly to the estrogen receptor as well....
    iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html

  4. Quote Originally Posted by freefall365
    this is a very interesting topic. Sourdough you ask "who's really out there buying up DHEA anyway" and the answer is tons of ppl swear buy such DHEA products.

    I know ppl who train and ran dermacrine who definitely achieved tighter/denser muscle mass (albeit not drastic but seemingly real effects) and reported hightened sense of well being. I know without bloodwork such a experience is hard to quantify, but still... Makes one wonder where this suggested increase of male hormone came from if DHEA really isn't for guys as is suggested.
    I wasn't asking any such question????

    I know plenty if people run dhea.... To what end result besides "feeling better" idk and neither do they unless they get bloods done....

    Theirs tons of studies available showing it increases estrogen CONSIDERABLY and does a fairly poor job at increasing testosterone.

    My previous statement stands that 4-dhea is a different story and what guys should be running... I def wouldn't be spending 60 bucks on dhea, res, preg and chrysin.... Dhea is CHEAP, td carriers are CHEAP.... idk why these products are so expensive and aren't anything special.....

    4-dhea is even fairly over priced in the forms that its available right now

    Point is moot anyhow, I have some good old 4ad powder still stocked up.
    iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    I wasn't asking any such question????

    I know plenty if people run dhea.... To what end result besides "feeling better" idk and neither do they unless they get bloods done....

    Theirs tons of studies available showing it increases estrogen CONSIDERABLY and does a fairly poor job at increasing testosterone.

    My previous statement stands that 4-dhea is a different story and what guys should be running... I def wouldn't be spending 60 bucks on dhea, res, preg and chrysin.... Dhea is CHEAP, td carriers are CHEAP.... idk why these products are so expensive and aren't anything special.....

    4-dhea is even fairly over priced in the forms that its available right now

    Point is moot anyhow, I have some good old 4ad powder still stocked up.
    Omg 4ad....
    RecoverBro ELITE
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by holmes215 View Post
    Would natural anti-estrogens combat this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    SERMs might, but AIs probably not so much. That is cuz most of DHEAs estrogenic potential is manifested through the metabolite 5-androstenediol, which is an non aromatic estrogenic substance. Blocking aromatase will do nothing to prevent its build up
    Def good convo in here...PA, ATD being pretty potent (which If I'm not mistaken, binds to the site of the aromatase enzyme & renders it inactive)...would you think 25mg/day would be the next best thing to a SERM....or not so much?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by schizm

    Def good convo in here...PA, ATD being pretty potent (which If I'm not mistaken, binds to the site of the aromatase enzyme & renders it inactive)...would you think 25mg/day would be the next best thing to a SERM....or not so much?
    I would doubt so... Its still not blocking anything at the ER itself. That's what is absolutely essential to block dhea's estrogenic effects since dhea and a few of its metabolites have direct interactions with the ER and no amount of aromatase blocking will stop those interactions.

    In fact in a study I just read....

    http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf

    It shows that males administered 50mg for DHEA 6 days in a TD gel showed no significant increased in either estrogen OR testosterone, just dhea and its metabolite dheas.... Until they did the follow up blood draws 5 weeks after ceasing the dose.

    This showed a 50% increase in testosterone had occurred from the downstream cascade of enzymatic conversions from dhea built up in the body.... One could only assume this number would increase if dose was increased and prolonged beyond 6 days just like in a typical cycle.

    This would all be good and fine, except for one thing. Estrogen also had an increase in those 5 weeks after only 6 days of dhea administration.... 300% over baseline values..... Imagine what a 4-8 week cycle would yield?

    Not exactly ideal.

    This also adds a new worry of wether or not if even a 4 week SERM based pct would be adequate considering the build up of dhea and constant downstream conversions that would occur weeks after a cycle.....

    So yes one could run a SERM through their 4-8 week cycle to prevent negative interactions but would also have to continue to run it weeks beyond a normal length pct and would prob be well suited to run an AI along the entire run as well so once the SERM is ceased there isn't just a flood of estrogen waiting to bombard the unlocked receptors.... So much for liver friendliness at that point.
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  8. ^Great post and info in this thread, I will be staying away from dhea for now on.
    Core Nutritionals Representative

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    I would doubt so... Its still not blocking anything at the ER itself. That's what is absolutely essential to block dhea's estrogenic effects since dhea and a few of its metabolites have direct interactions with the ER and no amount of aromatase blocking will stop those interactions.

    In fact in a study I just read....

    http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf

    It shows that males administered 50mg for DHEA 6 days in a TD gel showed no significant increased in either estrogen OR testosterone, just dhea and its metabolite dheas.... Until they did the follow up blood draws 5 weeks after ceasing the dose.

    This showed a 50% increase in testosterone had occurred from the downstream cascade of enzymatic conversions from dhea built up in the body.... One could only assume this number would increase if dose was increased and prolonged beyond 6 days just like in a typical cycle.

    This would all be good and fine, except for one thing. Estrogen also had an increase in those 5 weeks after only 6 days of dhea administration.... 300% over baseline values..... Imagine what a 4-8 week cycle would yield?

    Not exactly ideal.

    This also adds a new worry of wether or not if even a 4 week SERM based pct would be adequate considering the build up of dhea and constant downstream conversions that would occur weeks after a cycle.....

    So yes one could run a SERM through their 4-8 week cycle to prevent negative interactions but would also have to continue to run it weeks beyond a normal length pct and would prob be well suited to run an AI along the entire run as well so once the SERM is ceased there isn't just a flood of estrogen waiting to bombard the unlocked receptors.... So much for liver friendliness at that point.
    Holy crap.
    I think I'll be picking up some estrogen control for my cycle of transaderm.
    RecoverBro ELITE

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    I would doubt so... Its still not blocking anything at the ER itself. That's what is absolutely essential to block dhea's estrogenic effects since dhea and a few of its metabolites have direct interactions with the ER and no amount of aromatase blocking will stop those interactions.

    In fact in a study I just read....

    http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf

    It shows that males administered 50mg for DHEA 6 days in a TD gel showed no significant increased in either estrogen OR testosterone, just dhea and its metabolite dheas.... Until they did the follow up blood draws 5 weeks after ceasing the dose.

    This showed a 50% increase in testosterone had occurred from the downstream cascade of enzymatic conversions from dhea built up in the body.... One could only assume this number would increase if dose was increased and prolonged beyond 6 days just like in a typical cycle.

    This would all be good and fine, except for one thing. Estrogen also had an increase in those 5 weeks after only 6 days of dhea administration.... 300% over baseline values..... Imagine what a 4-8 week cycle would yield?

    Not exactly ideal.

    This also adds a new worry of wether or not if even a 4 week SERM based pct would be adequate considering the build up of dhea and constant downstream conversions that would occur weeks after a cycle.....

    So yes one could run a SERM through their 4-8 week cycle to prevent negative interactions but would also have to continue to run it weeks beyond a normal length pct and would prob be well suited to run an AI along the entire run as well so once the SERM is ceased there isn't just a flood of estrogen waiting to bombard the unlocked receptors.... So much for liver friendliness at that point.
    Definitely informative. However, it should probably be noted this was just with DHEA, right?

    I went and did some more searching and found this quote from a Dermacrine write-up:

    "Still, DHEA and Pregnenolone can eventually convert to estrogen through interaction with the aromatase enzyme (CYP 19). Excessive estrogen can inhibit the hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis (HTPA), and increase fat deposits and water retention41. Fortunately, Dermacrine limits estrogen synthesis by including the Phyto Aromatase Inhibitor (Phyto AI) complex, consisting of three potent plant based aromatase inhibitors, namely 7,8 Benzoflavone, Chrysin and resveratrol.42,43 These flavonoids directly compete with aromatizing androgens for interaction with the aromatase enzyme as well as inhibit the production of the aromatase enzyme itself.44,45 As a result, estrogen is kept down , and the steroidogenic enzymes are kept up, therefore making Dermcrine one complete hormone rejuvenator."

    So the Benzoflavone, Chrysin, and resveratrol supposedly keep the estrogen down. Thoughts?

  11. Quote Originally Posted by jwa254 View Post
    Definitely informative. However, it should probably be noted this was just with DHEA, right?

    I went and did some more searching and found this quote from a Dermacrine write-up:

    "Still, DHEA and Pregnenolone can eventually convert to estrogen through interaction with the aromatase enzyme (CYP 19). Excessive estrogen can inhibit the hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis (HTPA), and increase fat deposits and water retention41. Fortunately, Dermacrine limits estrogen synthesis by including the Phyto Aromatase Inhibitor (Phyto AI) complex, consisting of three potent plant based aromatase inhibitors, namely 7,8 Benzoflavone, Chrysin and resveratrol.42,43 These flavonoids directly compete with aromatizing androgens for interaction with the aromatase enzyme as well as inhibit the production of the aromatase enzyme itself.44,45 As a result, estrogen is kept down , and the steroidogenic enzymes are kept up, therefore making Dermcrine one complete hormone rejuvenator."

    So the Benzoflavone, Chrysin, and resveratrol supposedly keep the estrogen down. Thoughts?
    To what degree is def the question... Ive never been sold on Res ability to block estrogen at the receptor, theres a reason why Chrysin isnt used and suggested as a go to AI for on cycle use and Im actually completely unfamiliar with benzoflavones effects on estrogen or aromatase.... Really this point is still moot considering the direct interactions with the ER that DHEA and its metabolites can have where aromatase inhibition will count for nothing....

    Id still be interested in an unbiased 3rd parties blood results from such as one of these products.... again this would at least give comparative results to the previously quoted study for E levels but wouldnt give real world effects considering estrogen isnt the only one creating estrogenic effects here.


    IMO as well there is still much to be worried about regarding the build up of DHEA, DHEAS, Androstenedione in the body which for many weeks after the cessation of DHEA will still be converting to estrogen.... There wont be any of these products(C, R, B) in the blood stream at this point in time, an outside sourced AI and SERM would have to be used (admittedly this should be the case anyways for any complete PCT) but for how long compared to a normal PCT is the question.... no one wants to use a SERM for PCT and after the fact get "rebound gyno" cause est receptors are suddenly getting swamped... this would require an AI to be ran as well... all a bit much just so people can "effectively" run DHEA as a prohormone to Test..

    Personally, again, I think that 4-DHEA is a much more suitable hormone and I dont know why it isnt used in place of standard DHEA..... again there is the cost factor as well.... both dermacrine and Transaderm are ludicrously over priced for DHEA regardless of what else is included.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by jwa254 View Post
    Definitely informative. However, it should probably be noted this was just with DHEA, right?

    I went and did some more searching and found this quote from a Dermacrine write-up:

    "Still, DHEA and Pregnenolone can eventually convert to estrogen through interaction with the aromatase enzyme (CYP 19). Excessive estrogen can inhibit the hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis (HTPA), and increase fat deposits and water retention41. Fortunately, Dermacrine limits estrogen synthesis by including the Phyto Aromatase Inhibitor (Phyto AI) complex, consisting of three potent plant based aromatase inhibitors, namely 7,8 Benzoflavone, Chrysin and resveratrol.42,43 These flavonoids directly compete with aromatizing androgens for interaction with the aromatase enzyme as well as inhibit the production of the aromatase enzyme itself.44,45 As a result, estrogen is kept down , and the steroidogenic enzymes are kept up, therefore making Dermcrine one complete hormone rejuvenator."

    So the Benzoflavone, Chrysin, and resveratrol supposedly keep the estrogen down. Thoughts?
    plant based Ai's are probably worthless in the real world. they require fairly large doses to have any effect and i seriously doubt a transdermal carrier could carry the amount necessary to achieve an effect in the body. resveratrol is good for u but taking it to keep from gettin gyno is comical. from personal experience, oral chrysin is garbage and i dont know about the benzoflavone.

  13. Yeah it's seeming to appear like a toss up as to whether these ingredients do their job or not.

    I'm glad I posted this thread as it seems to have brought up some great points. The only thing that has me still going, for lack of better words, "WTF?" is how much people enjoy Dermacrine and Transaderm. I feel like if a product boosted estrogen 300% that it wouldn't exactly be the cat's meow.

    Perhaps, someone could shed some light on how well these Natural AIs actually do their job (statistically).

  14. hell, they may be putting real testosterone it that transdermal stuff and selling it. that's why people like it so much. stranger things have happened.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by rebelhead View Post
    hell, they may be putting real testosterone it that transdermal stuff and selling it. that's why people like it so much. stranger things have happened.
    Haha, well sadly, you can never rule out anything nowadays.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by jwa254 View Post
    In regards to topical DHEA products like Dermacrine and Transaderm, when one applies a product like the aforementioned to the chest/abs is there really a higher conversion rate to estrogen? I've read this in a few places and was unsure of the validity. I understand that the products are intended to be applied to the shoulder/upper back mainly but both products, if I am not mistaken, have an application area on the bottle that covers the chest.

    Thanks.
    Estrogen conversion is largely a function of the androgen in question, and enzymes conversion rates. Individual differences are present, but in my experience and in every bit of feedback I've seen on finished products/homebrews (including my own bloodwork) - there's little issue in the case of TOPICAL DHEA. Orally, it's a WHOLE 'nother story.

    In any case, getting enough of it into circulation is job #1. In this respect, you'll see the term "flux" showing up over, in the trandermal literature. This simply refers to the amount of surface area the product is spread across/over. Yes, some areas of the body have thinner/thicker skin covering such, but PE's (penetration enhancers) should be included to address. The gold standard is DMSO, but prude that the FDA is - they take a dim view of such. You might spill an oz. or two by accident, into your topical. It's unfortunate but happens. The world is frought with hazard, given all the multi-tasking that goes on today.

    ONE CAVEAT: DMSO (with the exception of the incredibly rare "odorless" variety PA once sold), stinks to high heaven. Accordingly, I spill at least 2-3 oz. of D-Limonene (constituent of orange/citrus peel) into the diabolical mix. It's an excellent PE enhancer, and has a pleasant citrus likesmell.

    Mistakes happen, so be on the lookout for them. Hope that helps...

  17. Yeah bro I only recommend taking it once a week if you want a boost in DHEA, and I tell people to make sure to run it with an AI. Mag oil is a safer alternative.
    doing my own thang!

  18. Quote Originally Posted by flightposite View Post
    Why do ai's cause some peoples joints to hurt in your opinion I always thought it was estrogen related. Because the opposite is true when I'm on something like say bold.

    they can cause body pain in women. if there is a connection it probably is related to inflammatory mediators, and not "dryness" as people like to put it
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  19. I'll be honest, I cant go above 2 sprays of dermacrine or take oral 5-dhea without (AFTER THE FIRST DOSE) feeling itchy nips. This is even with androhard and/or an AI. Never tried it with a SERM, there's no point to do so in my mind.
    BODY PERFORMANCE SOLUTIONS REP
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    they can cause body pain in women. if there is a connection it probably is related to inflammatory mediators, and not "dryness" as people like to put it
    i agree. the joint pain i experience from epistane feels like the "i worked 12 hours yesterday" kind of pain. probably inflamation also.
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  22. well, i got a bottle of ntbm transaderm, and i'll be giving it a go soon.

    on another note, im using 7-spray in my pct, and am freaking loving it!

  23. Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b
    well, i got a bottle of ntbm transaderm, and i'll be giving it a go soon.

    on another note, im using 7-spray in my pct, and am freaking loving it!
    7 spray sounds like some good stuff... I think im going to give it a go before my next cycle.
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  24. Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    7 spray sounds like some good stuff... I think im going to give it a go before my next cycle.
    I should look into that 7spray. Currently my pct is looking like some stoked and testopro ...
    RecoverBro ELITE

  25. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    I should look into that 7spray. Currently my pct is looking like some stoked and testopro ...
    pct for what???

    no estrogen control???

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    pct for what???

    no estrogen control???
    Well stoked is my estrogen balance supp. Testopro is my natty test. I have some other stuff laying around. I will see how I feel after the 4 weeks on the DHEA. Site says no need PCT, but I dont trust that obviously. And after reading this thread I dont even know that I trust this product lol.
    RecoverBro ELITE

  27. 7 spray is a great product to add into a cycle, or pct to keep cortisol down/under control.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    I should look into that 7spray. Currently my pct is looking like some stoked and testopro ...
    tack on some Testforce2 you won't be disappointed.
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  29. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag

    Well stoked is my estrogen balance supp. Testopro is my natty test. I have some other stuff laying around. I will see how I feel after the 4 weeks on the DHEA. Site says no need PCT, but I dont trust that obviously. And after reading this thread I dont even know that I trust this product lol.
    Oh yeah... I would def run a pct.... I'd look into erase as well like we were talking about

    Interested in stoked myself... Ask I'd AI's products actually... I just realized the other day that I hadn't tried anything since they first released cycle support
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  30. Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    Oh yeah... I would def run a pct.... I'd look into erase as well like we were talking about

    Interested in stoked myself... Ask I'd AI's products actually... I just realized the other day that I hadn't tried anything since they first released cycle support
    I'm wondering if I should see if I can run this for four weeks the stack it with ah and epi till its gone... Lol. I'm looking to increase my strength this winter. Weight doesn't matter much.
    RecoverBro ELITE
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