Topical DHEA Question

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwa254 View Post
    Definitely informative. However, it should probably be noted this was just with DHEA, right?

    I went and did some more searching and found this quote from a Dermacrine write-up:

    "Still, DHEA and Pregnenolone can eventually convert to estrogen through interaction with the aromatase enzyme (CYP 19). Excessive estrogen can inhibit the hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis (HTPA), and increase fat deposits and water retention41. Fortunately, Dermacrine limits estrogen synthesis by including the Phyto Aromatase Inhibitor (Phyto AI) complex, consisting of three potent plant based aromatase inhibitors, namely 7,8 Benzoflavone, Chrysin and resveratrol.42,43 These flavonoids directly compete with aromatizing androgens for interaction with the aromatase enzyme as well as inhibit the production of the aromatase enzyme itself.44,45 As a result, estrogen is kept down , and the steroidogenic enzymes are kept up, therefore making Dermcrine one complete hormone rejuvenator."

    So the Benzoflavone, Chrysin, and resveratrol supposedly keep the estrogen down. Thoughts?
    To what degree is def the question... Ive never been sold on Res ability to block estrogen at the receptor, theres a reason why Chrysin isnt used and suggested as a go to AI for on cycle use and Im actually completely unfamiliar with benzoflavones effects on estrogen or aromatase.... Really this point is still moot considering the direct interactions with the ER that DHEA and its metabolites can have where aromatase inhibition will count for nothing....

    Id still be interested in an unbiased 3rd parties blood results from such as one of these products.... again this would at least give comparative results to the previously quoted study for E levels but wouldnt give real world effects considering estrogen isnt the only one creating estrogenic effects here.


    IMO as well there is still much to be worried about regarding the build up of DHEA, DHEAS, Androstenedione in the body which for many weeks after the cessation of DHEA will still be converting to estrogen.... There wont be any of these products(C, R, B) in the blood stream at this point in time, an outside sourced AI and SERM would have to be used (admittedly this should be the case anyways for any complete PCT) but for how long compared to a normal PCT is the question.... no one wants to use a SERM for PCT and after the fact get "rebound gyno" cause est receptors are suddenly getting swamped... this would require an AI to be ran as well... all a bit much just so people can "effectively" run DHEA as a prohormone to Test..

    Personally, again, I think that 4-DHEA is a much more suitable hormone and I dont know why it isnt used in place of standard DHEA..... again there is the cost factor as well.... both dermacrine and Transaderm are ludicrously over priced for DHEA regardless of what else is included.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwa254 View Post
    Definitely informative. However, it should probably be noted this was just with DHEA, right?

    I went and did some more searching and found this quote from a Dermacrine write-up:

    "Still, DHEA and Pregnenolone can eventually convert to estrogen through interaction with the aromatase enzyme (CYP 19). Excessive estrogen can inhibit the hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis (HTPA), and increase fat deposits and water retention41. Fortunately, Dermacrine limits estrogen synthesis by including the Phyto Aromatase Inhibitor (Phyto AI) complex, consisting of three potent plant based aromatase inhibitors, namely 7,8 Benzoflavone, Chrysin and resveratrol.42,43 These flavonoids directly compete with aromatizing androgens for interaction with the aromatase enzyme as well as inhibit the production of the aromatase enzyme itself.44,45 As a result, estrogen is kept down , and the steroidogenic enzymes are kept up, therefore making Dermcrine one complete hormone rejuvenator."

    So the Benzoflavone, Chrysin, and resveratrol supposedly keep the estrogen down. Thoughts?
    plant based Ai's are probably worthless in the real world. they require fairly large doses to have any effect and i seriously doubt a transdermal carrier could carry the amount necessary to achieve an effect in the body. resveratrol is good for u but taking it to keep from gettin gyno is comical. from personal experience, oral chrysin is garbage and i dont know about the benzoflavone.
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    Yeah it's seeming to appear like a toss up as to whether these ingredients do their job or not.

    I'm glad I posted this thread as it seems to have brought up some great points. The only thing that has me still going, for lack of better words, "WTF?" is how much people enjoy Dermacrine and Transaderm. I feel like if a product boosted estrogen 300% that it wouldn't exactly be the cat's meow.

    Perhaps, someone could shed some light on how well these Natural AIs actually do their job (statistically).
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    hell, they may be putting real testosterone it that transdermal stuff and selling it. that's why people like it so much. stranger things have happened.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebelhead View Post
    hell, they may be putting real testosterone it that transdermal stuff and selling it. that's why people like it so much. stranger things have happened.
    Haha, well sadly, you can never rule out anything nowadays.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwa254 View Post
    In regards to topical DHEA products like Dermacrine and Transaderm, when one applies a product like the aforementioned to the chest/abs is there really a higher conversion rate to estrogen? I've read this in a few places and was unsure of the validity. I understand that the products are intended to be applied to the shoulder/upper back mainly but both products, if I am not mistaken, have an application area on the bottle that covers the chest.

    Thanks.
    Estrogen conversion is largely a function of the androgen in question, and enzymes conversion rates. Individual differences are present, but in my experience and in every bit of feedback I've seen on finished products/homebrews (including my own bloodwork) - there's little issue in the case of TOPICAL DHEA. Orally, it's a WHOLE 'nother story.

    In any case, getting enough of it into circulation is job #1. In this respect, you'll see the term "flux" showing up over, in the trandermal literature. This simply refers to the amount of surface area the product is spread across/over. Yes, some areas of the body have thinner/thicker skin covering such, but PE's (penetration enhancers) should be included to address. The gold standard is DMSO, but prude that the FDA is - they take a dim view of such. You might spill an oz. or two by accident, into your topical. It's unfortunate but happens. The world is frought with hazard, given all the multi-tasking that goes on today.

    ONE CAVEAT: DMSO (with the exception of the incredibly rare "odorless" variety PA once sold), stinks to high heaven. Accordingly, I spill at least 2-3 oz. of D-Limonene (constituent of orange/citrus peel) into the diabolical mix. It's an excellent PE enhancer, and has a pleasant citrus likesmell.

    Mistakes happen, so be on the lookout for them. Hope that helps...
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    Yeah bro I only recommend taking it once a week if you want a boost in DHEA, and I tell people to make sure to run it with an AI. Mag oil is a safer alternative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flightposite View Post
    Why do ai's cause some peoples joints to hurt in your opinion I always thought it was estrogen related. Because the opposite is true when I'm on something like say bold.

    they can cause body pain in women. if there is a connection it probably is related to inflammatory mediators, and not "dryness" as people like to put it
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    I'll be honest, I cant go above 2 sprays of dermacrine or take oral 5-dhea without (AFTER THE FIRST DOSE) feeling itchy nips. This is even with androhard and/or an AI. Never tried it with a SERM, there's no point to do so in my mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    they can cause body pain in women. if there is a connection it probably is related to inflammatory mediators, and not "dryness" as people like to put it
    i agree. the joint pain i experience from epistane feels like the "i worked 12 hours yesterday" kind of pain. probably inflamation also.
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    i' m gonna start selling transdermal cholesterol as a otc replacement for test base. there should be good conversion but it must be applied to the scrotum. it's called PLACEBODROL made from 100% non-organic animal fat. please contact me if u need any. bulk orders available
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    well, i got a bottle of **** transaderm, and i'll be giving it a go soon.

    on another note, im using 7-spray in my pct, and am freaking loving it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b
    well, i got a bottle of **** transaderm, and i'll be giving it a go soon.

    on another note, im using 7-spray in my pct, and am freaking loving it!
    7 spray sounds like some good stuff... I think im going to give it a go before my next cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    7 spray sounds like some good stuff... I think im going to give it a go before my next cycle.
    I should look into that 7spray. Currently my pct is looking like some stoked and testopro ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    I should look into that 7spray. Currently my pct is looking like some stoked and testopro ...
    pct for what???

    no estrogen control???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    pct for what???

    no estrogen control???
    Well stoked is my estrogen balance supp. Testopro is my natty test. I have some other stuff laying around. I will see how I feel after the 4 weeks on the DHEA. Site says no need PCT, but I dont trust that obviously. And after reading this thread I dont even know that I trust this product lol.
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    7 spray is a great product to add into a cycle, or pct to keep cortisol down/under control.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    I should look into that 7spray. Currently my pct is looking like some stoked and testopro ...
    tack on some Testforce2 you won't be disappointed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag

    Well stoked is my estrogen balance supp. Testopro is my natty test. I have some other stuff laying around. I will see how I feel after the 4 weeks on the DHEA. Site says no need PCT, but I dont trust that obviously. And after reading this thread I dont even know that I trust this product lol.
    Oh yeah... I would def run a pct.... I'd look into erase as well like we were talking about

    Interested in stoked myself... Ask I'd AI's products actually... I just realized the other day that I hadn't tried anything since they first released cycle support
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    Oh yeah... I would def run a pct.... I'd look into erase as well like we were talking about

    Interested in stoked myself... Ask I'd AI's products actually... I just realized the other day that I hadn't tried anything since they first released cycle support
    I'm wondering if I should see if I can run this for four weeks the stack it with ah and epi till its gone... Lol. I'm looking to increase my strength this winter. Weight doesn't matter much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag

    I'm wondering if I should see if I can run this for four weeks the stack it with ah and epi till its gone... Lol. I'm looking to increase my strength this winter. Weight doesn't matter much.
    That sounds tasty.... AH and epi both should help mitigate estrogenic side effects.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwa254 View Post
    7,8 Benzoflavone (36mg), Resveratrol (36mg), Pregnenolone (18mg), and Chrysin (9mg) are also included. Would these ingredients counter any negative effects of DHEA?
    the dose of res is too low in my opinion to be of much use. i dunno what dose of the benzoflav would be effective at and chrysin is neithered dosed remotely effectively nor soluble enough to get through the skin.

    everyone has diffreent sensitivities so if you can handle dhea and like it then fine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    ha this has been my sentiments exactly regarding all these DHEA products...

    4-DHEA, 1-DHEA, those are different... but come on.... whos out there really buying up DHEA at 50-60 bucks a bottle when you can get grams of the stuff in powder for a few dollars and it will still be just as pointless unless your in a severely deficient hormonal state.... in that case you should be on TRT anyways.

    BTW we have a ton of dhea capsules at 200mg here that we dont sell and if everyone wants to scoop them up just lemme know
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    Quote Originally Posted by freefall365 View Post
    this is a very interesting topic. Sourdough you ask "who's really out there buying up DHEA anyway" and the answer is tons of ppl swear buy such DHEA products.

    I know ppl who train and ran dermacrine who definitely achieved tighter/denser muscle mass (albeit not drastic but seemingly real effects) and reported hightened sense of well being. I know without bloodwork such a experience is hard to quantify, but still... Makes one wonder where this suggested increase of male hormone came from if DHEA really isn't for guys as is suggested.

    DHEA has been proposed to be an antagonist at the GABA(A) receptor so its possible some people feel a stimulatory effect from it
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebelhead View Post
    this study seems to show that dhea itself binds to the androgen receptor

    http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...760(06)00039-2

    i would bet you a million bucks that its ability to regulate AR mediated gene transcription is a teeny fraction of of a fraction compared to the classical physiological androgens like test and dht. So its hard for me to imagine that in eugonadal males its contribution to the androgen pool is even significant

    now if you are a woman, a castrate, or a child that may be different
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    Quote Originally Posted by schizm View Post
    Def good convo in here...PA, ATD being pretty potent (which If I'm not mistaken, binds to the site of the aromatase enzyme & renders it inactive)...would you think 25mg/day would be the next best thing to a SERM....or not so much?
    it may block the conversion of DHEA into classical estrogens but it wouldnt do anything to stop the estrogenic actions of the metabolite 5-adiol and DHEA itself
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    I would doubt so... Its still not blocking anything at the ER itself. That's what is absolutely essential to block dhea's estrogenic effects since dhea and a few of its metabolites have direct interactions with the ER and no amount of aromatase blocking will stop those interactions.

    In fact in a study I just read....

    http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf

    It shows that males administered 50mg for DHEA 6 days in a TD gel showed no significant increased in either estrogen OR testosterone, just dhea and its metabolite dheas.... Until they did the follow up blood draws 5 weeks after ceasing the dose.

    This showed a 50% increase in testosterone had occurred from the downstream cascade of enzymatic conversions from dhea built up in the body.... One could only assume this number would increase if dose was increased and prolonged beyond 6 days just like in a typical cycle.

    This would all be good and fine, except for one thing. Estrogen also had an increase in those 5 weeks after only 6 days of dhea administration.... 300% over baseline values..... Imagine what a 4-8 week cycle would yield?

    .

    My guess is that the DHEA was somehow upregulating enzymes which shuttle DHEA and other sex hormone precursors to active androgens and estrogens. The bad part of that equation of course is the compensatory downregulation of LH/FSH

    So not a good thing to take post cycle, at least transdermally
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebelhead View Post
    plant based Ai's are probably worthless in the real world. they require fairly large doses to have any effect and i seriously doubt a transdermal carrier could carry the amount necessary to achieve an effect in the body. resveratrol is good for u but taking it to keep from gettin gyno is comical. .
    you cant make such dismissive statements. not enough research has been done on these things. much of what has been published is suggestive of the possibility of benefit but we just dont know yet

    just because something was chemically synthesized and something is natural doesnt mean one works and the other one has to suck

    (chrysin probably does suck though, as a couple of studies have not come out well at all)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Estrogen conversion is largely a function of the androgen in question, and enzymes conversion rates. Individual differences are present, but in my experience and in every bit of feedback I've seen on finished products/homebrews (including my own bloodwork) - there's little issue in the case of TOPICAL DHEA. Orally, it's a WHOLE 'nother story.

    In any case, getting enough of it into circulation is job #1. In this respect, you'll see the term "flux" showing up over, in the trandermal literature. This simply refers to the amount of surface area the product is spread across/over. Yes, some areas of the body have thinner/thicker skin covering such, but PE's (penetration enhancers) should be included to address. The gold standard is DMSO, but prude that the FDA is - they take a dim view of such. You might spill an oz. or two by accident, into your topical. It's unfortunate but happens. The world is frought with hazard, given all the multi-tasking that goes on today.

    ONE CAVEAT: DMSO (with the exception of the incredibly rare "odorless" variety PA once sold), stinks to high heaven. Accordingly, I spill at least 2-3 oz. of D-Limonene (constituent of orange/citrus peel) into the diabolical mix. It's an excellent PE enhancer, and has a pleasant citrus likesmell.

    Mistakes happen, so be on the lookout for them. Hope that helps...

    we still have many gallons of the odor free dmso here. i dunno how odor free it still is though
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebelhead View Post
    i' m gonna start selling transdermal cholesterol as a otc replacement for test base. there should be good conversion but it must be applied to the scrotum. it's called PLACEBODROL made from 100% non-organic animal fat. please contact me if u need any. bulk orders available
    just wrap your nuts in bacon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    we still have many gallons of the odor free dmso here. i dunno how odor free it still is though
    in for some of that, That was from Skulpt right? I had good results from that whatever happened to it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    we still have many gallons of the odor free dmso here. i dunno how odor free it still is though
    Yeah, you sold me some! It's not QUITE what I'd call odor free - but it's one HELL of a lot better, than the other stuff that's out there. I'd imagine a fresh batch, would be darn close...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    just wrap your nuts in bacon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    we still have many gallons of the odor free dmso here. i dunno how odor free it still is though
    how would we get our hands on this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    how would we get our hands on this?
    I'm thinkin' in Japan, Probably not
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    in for some of that, That was from Skulpt right? I had good results from that whatever happened to it?
    lol-only result i got from skulpt was stained clothes. skulpt was a dud, imho.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    lol-only result i got from skulpt was stained clothes. skulpt was a dud, imho.
    yeah I got the yellow clothes too only if you didn't let it dry enough. It was good for getting rid of the last vestiges of my love handles it was a tuner not a make over, you had to be eating under maintenance, it just targeted the stubborn hard spots
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    yeah I got the yellow clothes too only if you didn't let it dry enough. It was good for getting rid of the last vestiges of my love handles it was a tuner not a make over, you had to be eating under maintenance, it just targeted the stubborn hard spots

    6oxo and 6oxo extreme were big favorites of mine, and having used 6oxo bulk in a topical solution i was very disappointed in skulpt. only thing i can think of is the 6oxo was very underdosed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin
    I'm thinkin' in Japan, Probably not
    None in japan? Sigh..
    6oxo I hear was some good stuff. Donno the correct or effective dose though.

    6bromo was good. But I mistakenly used that in pct....
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    None in japan? Sigh..
    6oxo I hear was some good stuff. Donno the correct or effective dose though.

    6bromo was good. But I mistakenly used that in pct....
    Yeah 6 oxo was outstanding. Back when I was running PH's it was always in the stack and I even used it as a stand alone test booster, it was a little hard on the hairline.....of course now that is of no concern to me. lol
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