Myth about fat cells?

[PuZo]

I've heard that you can create fat cells but you can't get rid of them, that you can only shrink them? What's the reality on this? I'm assuming the notion that you can create it but not remove it is a bit ludacris. How would topical fat loss agents work exactly then?

 

[mr.cooper69]

This is true within reason. However, due to the fact that bodybuilders fluctuate in bodyweight so rapidly throughout their lives, it is [highly unlikely but] possible for apoptosis to occur in adipocytes. To date, the phenomenon has only been observed in individuals undergoing treatment for pathologies (i.e. breast cancer) or in cases of starvation (which induces apoptosis signaling).

The reality is that most adipocytes are permanent unless lost through basic metabolism. The triglyceride content of the adipocytes is what dictates how fat an individual is. Someone who was previously fat but lost tons of weight will still retain most/all of the adipocytes, but the cells will be "deflated." The issue was never the amount of adipocytes, but rather the problems associated with loss of lipids from within the adipocyte over the course of weight loss. For instance, these "deflated" fat cells create strong para/endocrine signals that stimulate appetite (this is one reason why people who were once fat and then lose weight are postulated to put the fat back on so easily; prior insulin resistance followed by high insulin sensitivity due to a heavy cut is also responsible [see reverse dieting]).

 

[PuZo]

So any product that essentially promotes a destroying of fat cells is automatically bunk? They can only "shrink" them and would that shriking be temporary, ie while using the product or will it be permanent(as long as there is a proper diet)?

 

[mr.cooper69]

So any product that essentially promotes a destroying of fat cells is automatically bunk? They can only "shrink" them and would that shriking be temporary, ie while using the product or will it be permanent(as long as there is a proper diet)?

Huh? If you lose fat, then the "shrinking" will be maintained for as long as you keep the fat off. If you gain fat, the fat stores will be restored + adipogenesis.

 

[DJBeanPole]

This is true within reason. However, due to the fact that bodybuilders fluctuate in bodyweight so rapidly throughout their lives, it is [highly unlikely but] possible for apoptosis to occur in adipocytes. To date, the phenomenon has only been observed in individuals undergoing treatment for pathologies (i.e. breast cancer) or in cases of starvation (which induces apoptosis signaling).

The reality is that most adipocytes are permanent unless lost through basic metabolism. The triglyceride content of the adipocytes is what dictates how fat an individual is. Someone who was previously fat but lost tons of weight will still retain most/all of the adipocytes, but the cells will be "deflated." The issue was never the amount of adipocytes, but rather the problems associated with loss of lipids from within the adipocyte over the course of weight loss. For instance, these "deflated" fat cells create strong para/endocrine signals that stimulate appetite (this is one reason why people who were once fat and then lose weight are postulated to put the fat back on so easily; prior insulin resistance followed by high insulin sensitivity due to a heavy cut is also responsible [see reverse dieting]).

This also explains why patients that undergo liposuction and then ditch healthy pre-surgery diet end up retaining the fat again... but it ends up in differently places. Women who have liposuction done of their stomachs and then months/years later begin to reaccumulate their fat do so in their hips, butt, etc (wherever they DIDN'T have the procedure) because the fat cells are no longer where they used to be prior to liposuction. Gotta find a new home

 

[mr.cooper69]

This also explains why patients that undergo liposuction and then ditch healthy pre-surgery diet end up retaining the fat again... but it ends up in differently places. Women who have liposuction done of their stomachs and then months/years later begin to reaccumulate their fat do so in their hips, butt, etc (wherever they DIDN'T have the procedure) because the fat cells are no longer where they used to be prior to liposuction. Gotta find a new home

Right. It's an amazing adaptation when you think about it, as it foregoes the energetic costs of adipogenesis. Too bad there's no shortage of food in modern society

 

[DJBeanPole]

Right. It's an amazing adaptation when you think about it, as it foregoes the energetic costs of adipogenesis. Too bad there's no shortage of food in modern society

I was told of that process by my virology professor (lol odd right?). It never really occurred to me before. He said "Have you ever seen pictures of those ladies with HUGE thighs but tiny hips that proclaim liposuction? If the fat cells from the abdomen are removed and they stuff their faces, where does it redeposit? EVERYWHERE ELSE!"

Gave me a hearty chuckle. He always opened his lectures with some strange random fact lol.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

coop you bring up a good point about starvation signaling.. my question is if starvation leads to ketosis does the body only fracture the fatcells that are ingested or in the case of starvation itll be forced to fracture body fat as i understand it?

 

[ZiR RED]

coop you bring up a good point about starvation signaling.. my question is if starvation leads to ketosis does the body only fracture the fatcells that are ingested or in the case of starvation itll be forced to fracture body fat as i understand it?

Well, if you are ingesting fat cells then you are not starving.
As for adipocytes in the organism, they are not fractured, but rather they release triglycerides via a chemical signalling cascade. When fat stores run low body proteins are broken down. First generally from skeletal muscle, and then eventually from connective tissue (such as the elastin in the dermis).

Adipogenesis occurs in the prenatal period, and then can occur easily at adolescence if caloric consumption is high (hence all the fat kids running around...well, waddling...who will have trouble losing weight in adulthood). Futher, in adulthood when the adipocytes reach a "critical fill" stem cells will differentiate into new adipocytes.

Now, if you want to fracture and kill fat cells non-invasively, you can look into Zeltiq (sp?) cryolipolysis.

Br

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

help me follow what your saying here... please.. if fat cells are not fractured or otherwise changed why do ketones only offer up 7 calories as opposed to 9 for a regular g of fat? if i am to go with what your saying then ketogenisis is not really doing what all the reading ive read says?

again my question is in relation to ketogenic dieting. not starvation in general. wich is what i think your more talking about??

 

[Whacked]

That crap reminds me of the non-invasive Zerona laser which was the hottest procedre in 2010+2011 until everyone realized it was one more bunk-azz ineffective scam like all the other BS modalities.

Liposuction, Diet or forget it

Everything is a scam along with 99% of the BS-supps out there too

Now, if you want to fracture and kill fat cells non-invasively, you can look into Zeltiq (sp?) cryolipolysis.

Br

 

[AaronJP1]

This is true within reason. However, due to the fact that bodybuilders fluctuate in bodyweight so rapidly throughout their lives, it is [highly unlikely but] possible for apoptosis to occur in adipocytes. To date, the phenomenon has only been observed in individuals undergoing treatment for pathologies (i.e. breast cancer) or in cases of starvation (which induces apoptosis signaling).

The reality is that most adipocytes are permanent unless lost through basic metabolism. The triglyceride content of the adipocytes is what dictates how fat an individual is. Someone who was previously fat but lost tons of weight will still retain most/all of the adipocytes, but the cells will be "deflated." The issue was never the amount of adipocytes, but rather the problems associated with loss of lipids from within the adipocyte over the course of weight loss. For instance, these "deflated" fat cells create strong para/endocrine signals that stimulate appetite (this is one reason why people who were once fat and then lose weight are postulated to put the fat back on so easily; prior insulin resistance followed by high insulin sensitivity due to a heavy cut is also responsible [see reverse dieting]).

I learned something.

 

[ZiR RED]

That crap reminds me of the non-invasive Zerona laser which was the hottest procedre in 2010+2011 until everyone realized it was one more bunk-azz ineffective scam like all the other BS modalities.

Liposuction, Diet or forget it

Everything is a scam along with 99% of the BS-supps out there too

I agree with this. Cryolipolysis has some interesting studies backing up its effectiveness, though. Now, I am not advocating its use,...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=cryolipolysis for subcutaneous fat layer reduction

Br

 

[ZiR RED]

help me follow what your saying here... please.. if fat cells are not fractured or otherwise changed why do ketones only offer up 7 calories as opposed to 9 for a regular g of fat? if i am to go with what your saying then ketogenisis is not really doing what all the reading ive read says?

again my question is in relation to ketogenic dieting. not starvation in general. wich is what i think your more talking about??

You are confusing a couple of different things.

First off, lipolysis is the process whereby adipose cells release fat into the blood stream.

Beta-oxidation and the resultant oxidative phosphorylation (krebs cycle) is the process whereby fats are oxidized for fuel to rebuild ATP.

Ketogenesis is the formation of ketones when fats (and certain amino acids) are used by the liver in gluconeogenesis. The glucose is used for energy by the CNS while the ketone bodies are oxidized by muscle and liver cells similar to fatty acids.

This is an INefficient way to generate glucose (compared to consuming it), and only occurs when insulin levels are low and glucogon levels are elevated (i.e.: during low CHO eating). What have you been reading it to say?

Br

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

i am quoteing you from above. so you tell me were im going wrong as i explain myself because right now i dont think we are talking about the same thing.
you said "Well, if you are ingesting fat cells then you are not starving"
i understand i might not be actually starving but i was reffering to the fact that ketogenisis is a reaction to starvation as you mentioned.. in abscence of carbs the body will begine to fracture fat cells for energy (in the simplist terms, i dont need to repeat what you have stated). so leave all the other stuff out of the eqaution.. as i am not talking about any of that.
i was asking coop in responce to his statement above "To date, the phenomenon has only been observed in individuals undergoing treatment for pathologies (i.e. breast cancer) or in cases of starvation (which induces apoptosis signaling)..if the body will only make ketones from dietary fat or if the body would infact use fat stores as well.
so have i clarified my approach? im trying to find out if i can in fact get rid of fats cells via ketogenisis.

 

[ZiR RED]

I see.

Adipocyte death is very very unlikely to occur from a simple ketogenic state. In fact, a pubmed search did not turn up any results pertaining to adipocyte apoptosis with ketones or ketosis.

Adipocyte apoptosis (death) is only likely to occur in clinical situations, such as extreme inflammation and obesity. You might find this article interesting, about ways to induce adipocyte death in the obese:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22172945

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

ty for your answere.