Dr. D... your thoughts on TUDCA for AAS/DS use

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    If you're running a barbaric cycle, I would ad it. If not, it's probably overkill but it's going to hurt anything. Perhaps you gain a little better peace of mind, some added detox properties and sme anti-oxidant activity as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stankyleg View Post
    What kind of SAMe dosage are we talkin?

    I'm not sure if people caught the links because of the foreign forum **** - age, but

    400mg SAMe (not binding component) dosed about 4 hours from C-17 alpha-alkylated oral agents.

    In other words...a dosing schedule might look like this:

    6 am - C17 Alpha-alkylated Agent
    10 am - SAMe dose 1
    2 pm - C17 Alpha-alkylated Agent
    6pm - SAMe dose 2

    For anyone that thinks this is too complex; abort use of these agents and deal with the fact that you are not ready.


    D_
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    LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    For anyone that thinks this is too complex; abort use of these agents and deal with the fact that you are not ready.


    D_
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    Could we try to get the links for SAMe re-posted? Would really like to read them. Could try putting them in to ******* which would then copy over to this forum instead of the link being censored.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam View Post
    Could we try to get the links for SAMe re-posted? Would really like to read them. Could try putting them in to ******* which would then copy over to this forum instead of the link being censored.
    post edited to use shortened url's that aren't getting *****ed - that said if you want to read up on D_'s writings, I would peruse the rest of that subsection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    I'm not sure if people caught the links because of the foreign forum **** - age, but

    400mg SAMe (not binding component) dosed about 4 hours from C-17 alpha-alkylated oral agents.

    In other words...a dosing schedule might look like this:

    6 am - C17 Alpha-alkylated Agent
    10 am - SAMe dose 1
    2 pm - C17 Alpha-alkylated Agent
    6pm - SAMe dose 2

    For anyone that thinks this is too complex; abort use of these agents and deal with the fact that you are not ready.


    D_
    heya D_, long time... Question for you on this... I used to go to the trouble of separating the doses in time, but I've gotten lazy lately (as I take Doctor's Best SAME 400mg active - one of your approved brands every day, year round now) while on-cycle as I take vitamins/pills 3x/day and when dosing orals 3x/day I started just throwing SAMe in with one of those doses - I know it's bad, but sometimes when there's so many rules to follow, I forget what things are important. This has reminded me to separate the dosages of heptaprotectants and C17 orals, but I went and looked and couldn't find a good answer as to "why" - and knowing why will help me keep this good habit in place - is this to prevent the SAMe from "strengthening" the liver such that less active steroid makes it past it's enzymes, or to make the SAMe more effective in repairing the liver during a time when there's less "stress" on it? i.e. when making this mistake am I making my oral less effective or my SAMe less effective? I know these are laymen's terms/ideas, I'm just trying to get a feeling of what's been happening when I haven't been following this rule. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by muad33b

    heya D_, long time... Question for you on this... I used to go to the trouble of separating the doses in time, but I've gotten lazy lately (as I take Doctor's Best SAME 400mg active - one of your approved brands every day, year round now) while on-cycle as I take vitamins/pills 3x/day and when dosing orals 3x/day I started just throwing SAMe in with one of those doses - I know it's bad, but sometimes when there's so many rules to follow, I forget what things are important. This has reminded me to separate the dosages of heptaprotectants and C17 orals, but I went and looked and couldn't find a good answer as to "why" - and knowing why will help me keep this good habit in place - is this to prevent the SAMe from "strengthening" the liver such that less active steroid makes it past it's enzymes, or to make the SAMe more effective in repairing the liver during a time when there's less "stress" on it? i.e. when making this mistake am I making my oral less effective or my SAMe less effective? I know these are laymen's terms/ideas, I'm just trying to get a feeling of what's been happening when I haven't been following this rule. Thanks.
    Bump, as I'm interested as well...
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    Quote Originally Posted by lboston

    Bump, as I'm interested as well...
    So, D_ is saying you need 800mg per day of SAMe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lboston View Post
    So, D_ is saying you need 800mg per day of SAMe?
    2 doses, 400mg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam

    2 doses, 400mg
    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam View Post
    2 doses, 400mg
    Right, for PCT. I kind of confused things a bit when I mentioned above that i take 400mg every day, year round... that way if/when i do end up going on cycle (and continuing the 400mg/day while on cycle) I'm in great shape for pct, where I'll double up if it was a heavy methyl cycle, or just stick to my normal dosage if it's a light cycle. This is just what i do, and does not reflect D_'s recommendations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by muad33b

    Right, for PCT. I kind of confused things a bit when I mentioned above that i take 400mg every day, year round... that way if/when i do end up going on cycle (and continuing the 400mg/day while on cycle) I'm in great shape for pct, where I'll double up if it was a heavy methyl cycle, or just stick to my normal dosage if it's a light cycle. This is just what i do, and does not reflect D_'s recommendations.
    Thanks man-have you ever done labs and gotten results back that you could share? I'm particularly interested as to how this would affect liver function.
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    Every time I do blood work my liver values are right where they should be, even after long 8 week double methyl cycles... haven't had it checked recently, but that time is here as I'm just finishing PCT so I'll try to remember to post back here the next results I get... last cycle was 5 weeks ago and was 8 weeks of mechabol @ 75/day and then weeks 7-9 dymethazine (which was brutal, by the end my skin started getting itchy and my piss smelled horrible and looked like dark tea - signs of liver strain.. that last week of dymeth was too much) which I will say was prob the most foolish cycle I've run... I had a lot going on stress wise so I just said "**** it"... not a cycle I would recommended. Anyhow, I had run SAM-e @ 400mg/day (Doctor's Best - a D_ approved brand) for months straight before hand, during, and have been running it since (I haven't doubled up cause $$ was tight) so it'll be interesting to see what my values are at in a week or two when I get blood work. That will be after about 6 weeks of PCT.

    That said, I don't think I could have done what I did without the SAM-e... and if I had gone to 800/day on cycle I probably could have got away with more... but I'm not going to try it again to see lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by muad33b
    Every time I do blood work my liver values are right where they should be, even after long 8 week double methyl cycles... haven't had it checked recently, but that time is here as I'm just finishing PCT so I'll try to remember to post back here the next results I get... last cycle was 5 weeks ago and was 8 weeks of mechabol @ 75/day and then weeks 7-9 dymethazine (which was brutal, by the end my skin started getting itchy and my piss smelled horrible and looked like dark tea - signs of liver strain.. that last week of dymeth was too much) which I will say was prob the most foolish cycle I've run... I had a lot going on stress wise so I just said "**** it"... not a cycle I would recommended. Anyhow, I had run SAM-e @ 400mg/day (Doctor's Best - a D_ approved brand) for months straight before hand, during, and have been running it since (I haven't doubled up cause $$ was tight) so it'll be interesting to see what my values are at in a week or two when I get blood work. That will be after about 6 weeks of PCT.

    That said, I don't think I could have done what I did without the SAM-e... and if I had gone to 800/day on cycle I probably could have got away with more... but I'm not going to try it again to see lol.
    So even with the double methyls your values were normal!? Does SAMe seem to help with lipids as well? I'm impressed. Don't think I'd take it that extreme...lol...but impressed!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lboston View Post
    So even with the double methyls your values were normal!? Does SAMe seem to help with lipids as well? I'm impressed. Don't think I'd take it that extreme...lol...but impressed!
    I don't get bloodwork right at the end of the cycle, but more after PCT to see if there's anything else I still need to "work on" before I even consider starting another cycle. Every time I do this, my liver values are basically perfect; not even a little off... this was true even for the last double methyl (halo+epi) that I ran... As for lipids, D_ has a different protocol for that, mostly involving Niacin + No Flush Niacin... you really should check out his PCT articles over at Lean Bulk dot com. I've followed them and my blood work proves that it works for me... except that time I didn't bother with the Niacin protocol and had ****ty lipid numbers lol...
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    Is it better to use SAMe pct or on cycle or both? Also could I use tudca at 1 gram along with it? I would assume take tudca and SAMe 4 hours after ingestion of methylated oral. Also trying to figure out what LOLA is and what brand sells reputable sylmarin (milk thistle)? Last question...almost there...is it recommended to buy a cycle assist supplement or is it better to buy ingredients separately to design your own?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD261985 View Post
    Is it better to use SAMe pct or on cycle or both? Also could I use tudca at 1 gram along with it? I would assume take tudca and SAMe 4 hours after ingestion of methylated oral. Also trying to figure out what LOLA is and what brand sells reputable sylmarin (milk thistle)? Last question...almost there...is it recommended to buy a cycle assist supplement or is it better to buy ingredients separately to design your own?
    If you read this entire thread, including the links and materials referenced here in this thread, you'll see that SAMe is used by itself for both liver support on-cycle and in PCT.

    That said, there is the idea that if you can get away without liver protection while on cycle, there might be more active anabolic in your system as your liver is less able to keep up with the demands... however, this is kind of towards the questions I've got earlier in this thread to D_ regarding the timing of SAMe on-cycle.
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    Wanna see blood test results after using TUDCA at 500mg/day?
    cycle:

    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/41414-ultradrol-wow

    summary: (liver values)

    results guide:
    1) normal range
    2) older results just before my UD cycle
    3) current results (few days ago)

    cholesterol:
    1) <200
    2) 116 (too low)
    3) 148 (respectable :-) )

    triglycerides:
    1) <150
    2) 40
    3) 33 (woot)

    HDL
    1) >55
    2) 46
    3) 62

    LDL
    1) <100
    2) 62
    3) 79

    ALT/GPT
    1) <30
    2) 49
    3) 31

    AST/GOT
    1) <30
    2) 45
    3) 25

    billirubin total
    1) < 1
    2) 1.11
    3) .68

    c reactive protein
    1) < 1
    2) 1.4
    3) 0.6


    i did a full panel actually and everything was awesome, and some better than pre cycle. didnt do during because it IS expensive.


    thing is, i did UD before very similar cycle to this and most of my enzymes were elevated 5 to 15% which is still ok actually
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    Thanks for posting this



    Quote Originally Posted by djremix View Post
    Wanna see blood test results after using TUDCA at 500mg/day?
    cycle:

    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/41414-ultradrol-wow

    summary: (liver values)

    results guide:
    1) normal range
    2) older results just before my UD cycle
    3) current results (few days ago)

    cholesterol:
    1) <200
    2) 116 (too low)
    3) 148 (respectable :-) )

    triglycerides:
    1) <150
    2) 40
    3) 33 (woot)

    HDL
    1) >55
    2) 46
    3) 62

    LDL
    1) <100
    2) 62
    3) 79

    ALT/GPT
    1) <30
    2) 49
    3) 31

    AST/GOT
    1) <30
    2) 45
    3) 25

    billirubin total
    1) < 1
    2) 1.11
    3) .68

    c reactive protein
    1) < 1
    2) 1.4
    3) 0.6


    i did a full panel actually and everything was awesome, and some better than pre cycle. didnt do during because it IS expensive.


    thing is, i did UD before very similar cycle to this and most of my enzymes were elevated 5 to 15% which is still ok actually
    Everything I say is fictional and for entertainment purposes only. Do not ask me for sources. I dont have any.
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    From my understanding TUDCA is one of the best liver protectors there is. Milk thistle has a very poor absorption rate orally, which hurts it although it is much cheaper... NP has the cheapest I have found at 34.95 for a 30 day supply at 250mg twice a day...way,way cheaper han anywhere else I have seen...
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    Quote Originally Posted by stankyleg View Post
    Thanks for posting this
    no problem, easiest cycle i've ever done. and well worth it
  

  
 

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