Ginkgo Biloba Extracts, and others on estrogen

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GBE shows to be a bad thing.

http://web.skku.edu/~hylee/results/LifeSci-04-74-1325.pdf

however Quercetin, kaepferol, and the other isoflavone dont show any actual bad activity when we use them in our supplements. They are used as PCT products, and i want to know what you think it is. Is quercetin an bad thing in general, especially in doses per day (120mg 24% biflavones), does it pose AI properties at lower doses? kaempferol seems super awesome, very promising.

Mangosteen on the otherhand shown to be very good in terms of aromatase inhibition, now this is good, but seems to be the entire plant that works as an AI not just the extracts. This also at the end states GBE works as an anti estrogen (confusing?)

Mangosteen: a powerful natural anti-oestrogen


[SIZE=-1]Pycnogenol on the other hand has 2 of the same isoflavones quercetin and kaempferol, yet i have only seen things on Post menopausal women[/SIZE]. Similar to the GBE

What is your take on GBE at 120mg per day as suggested by various different companies in relation to estrogen related sides in men.

What would you consider an optimal mangosteen extract dose for slight aromatase inhibition without crushing estrogen.

Thanks

 

[ka0tik]

interesting, sticking around for D's response

 

[dinoiii]

Have not read the study you present in full; just looked at some major points.

It is VERY difficult to draw conclusion on cell line studies as many bioavailability issues crop out in mammalian ingestion to suggest true comparison.

Look at this study on rats from ergo-log (I normally don't use the site because I feel some of their conclusions are in err, BUT their gingko data is interesting - to say the least so I have highlighted it here seeing how you are obviously a fan with the Mangosteen but perhaps missed all the pertinent gingko stuff available on that site):


http://www.ergo-log.com/ginkgo3.html

The suggestion here is: decreased prolactin; increased testosterone (to a point - note differences between 50mg and 100mg doses), suggesting there is probably some optimization curve in mammalian species.


Then one need question if all this hormonal talk really means much when you have results such as decreased cortisol if the point is body composition change:
http://www.ergo-log.com/ginkgo.html
http://www.ergo-log.com/anabolicginkgo.html


But - maybe we don't need to control estrogen as much as we think we do. People try and avoid estrogen like the plague; but this may not be the case for any rationale we could use to suggest just why it is we are trying to modify hormones at all. A common thought is libido; BUT estrogen is very important for libido:
http://www.ergo-log.com/lustandginkgo.html


And there are many more positive effects that we might even just be splitting hairs on the level of estrogenic acitivity we are talking about and what exactly it means anyway:
http://www.ergo-log.com/ginkgobones.html
http://www.ergo-log.com/ginkgolifespan.html
http://www.ergo-log.com/ginkgo2.html



Ultimately - when it came to your question of 120mg oral doses, they come no where near the 100mg/kg human equivalent that would be required, which would be about 16 mg/kg or for a 70kg (154 lbs) male human which is the statistical average - about 1120 mg of ginkgo.

But - for purposes of this illustration as I presume people on this board carry a lot more weight than 154 lbs (if not, worry about food before ginkgo anyway).

70 kg (154 lbs) - 1120 mg
80 kg (176 lbs) - 1280 mg
90 kg (198 lbs) - 1440 mg
100kg (220 lbs) - 1600 mg


I just don't know of any supplement that provides even close to that amount and in that instance, maybe this is sheer pontification; but it is appropriate to feel that cummulative effects of even phytoestrogens DOES have some impact (quercetin is strange and may impart some effect through the gonadotropes as illustrated with fertility studies which may cancel it out and impart the effect of a clomid in SERM quality).

D_

 

[ssbackwards]

looking at the flavonoids in ginkgo seems that they are excellent

at doses of 120mg-240mg per day, it seems to provide a benefit in stress reduction

most standardized extracts are 50:1 with 24% flavonoids and 6% terpenoid lactones.

of which flavonoids looked at individually, Quercetin, kaempferol, and Isorhamnetin, are increasingly appealing.