Workout Nutrition

[koi1214]

Doc,

How do you do pre,intra,and post workout both nutrition and supplement wise?

[koi1214]

Bump

[dinoiii]

Note: Today, we will merely address macronutrients (protein/aminos, in particular); at a later point we will address other ergogenic nutrients...

Macronutrients

Pre-Workout

"Pre" has many definitions. I define "pre" by GastroIntestinal (GI) transit time; therefore about 2-2.5 hours before the workout - I am NOT a fan of macronutrients at all. It's counter-productive to hormonal outlay (counter-regulatory hormones suffer most...in particular - catecholamines - epinephrine or adrenaline / norepinephrine or noradrenaline / dopamine). Now, if one wants to throw stimulants into the mix…so be it immediately before – but macros should be left out, contrary to whatever pre-workout supplement manufacturers or vested-interest studies would lend to the contrary. I am also NOT a fan of arginine pre-workout. So how many pre-workout supplements have I eliminated?

Intra-Workout

This one is tricky. It makes some people feel better to carry their bottles, etc with them…however, I am a fan of lifting when I am in the gym and leaving the ingestion of something for when I am not. Do I think it will make an astronomical difference either way? I would answer with an EMPHATIC NO! Now, understand that cortisol is at its highest about 45 minutes into the workout (provided you are truly working “intensely” – recall the definition of this in resistance training is how close you lift to your 1RM; NOT moving from machine-to-machine quickly). I do have people ingest some form of leucine (free-form, peptides, etc…) if there workout will extend beyond 60 minutes, but from a macro standpoint; this is probably MORE than enough (contrary to what all the makers of intra-workout blends would lend you to believe). Now, this is NOT to say I object to other types of ergogenic nutrients…we’re limiting the discussion of this post to macronutrients alone.

Post-Workout

As quick acting a protein as you possibly can. I am likely looking at a hydrosylate OR minimally, an isolate (which continues to see rising prices; so don’t be surprised if supplement manufacturers try and sell you there crappy quality protein suggesting it somehow superior…IT ISN’T!). Now – remember from the BCAA discussion thread that I am a fan of an amino acid pool consisting of leucine at 25% the total. Which means that if you were ingesting 40 grams of whey isolate/hyrdosylate; you are starting with about 4.8 grams of leucine or 12% the total amino pool. If you calculate needs for maximum MPS; you need about 6-7 grams of supplemental leucine added to this pool.
I also believe that the first whole-food meal should be about 1 hour after the workout, then resuming the 2-3 hour interval period between ingestion would occur thereafter.

[0071982WC]

Why are you opposed to Arginine pre workout? Thanks for your input.

[dinoiii]

Sure thing...any study showing arginine had appreciable effects used ridiculously high amounts and if you want to invest in it pre-workout...so be it; but there are plenty of things to offer you more bang for your buck.

Well, Dr. Houser - what about growth hormone stimulus with arginine? Glad you asked.
The ability of oral arginine to raise growth hormone has been investigated in numerous studies with conflicting results. For example, in one study, subjects given 6 grams of oral arginine experienced a 100% increase in plasma levels of arginine without any growth hormone release. Other researchers administered oral arginine to 12 young and 5 elderly non-obese adults, all of whom had a body mass index (BMI) less than 30. The subjects participated in three trials: resistive weight-lifting exercise with no placebo; 5 grams of oral L-arginine only; and 5 grams of arginine supplementation prior to exercise.

Citation: Braverman ER, Pfeiffer CC. Arginine and citrulline in the healing nutrients within. Facts, Findings and New Research on Amino Acids. Keats Publishing. New Canaan, Connecticut, 1986, pg. 173.


When arginine was consumed at rest, it did not significantly raise GH levels, compared with baseline values, in either the young or the old subjects. In fact, GH levels in those consuming arginine at rest were significantly lower than during the exercise-only trial. Consuming arginine before exercise did not significantly raise the GH concentrations in either the old or the young subjects, compared to exercise only. Surprisingly, the amount of GH secreted in the exercise-plus-arginine trial was 20% less than during exercise only in the young subjects, indicating arginine may actually blunt growth hormone production, particularly in the young.

Citation: Marcell TJ, Taaffe DR, Hawkins SA, Tarpenning KM, Pyka G, et al. Oral arginine does not stimulate basal or augment exercise-induced GH secretion in either young or old adults. Journal of Gerontology. 1999;54A(8):M395-399.


Other researchers drew the same conclusion in a study of 16 young men during an acute episode of resistive weight lifting. After 3 grams of oral arginine and lysine, the subjects experienced a peak GH response to exercise approximately 15% lower than during exercise without supplementation. One group of researchers, after reviewing the evidence, wrote, These results suggest that oral arginine, unlike intravenously infused arginine, does not appear to be an effective means of enhancing GH secretion.

Citation: Surninski RR, Robertson RJ, Goss FL, et al. Acute effect of amino acid ingestion and resistance exercise on plasma growth hormone concentration in young men. Int J Sport Nutr. 1997;7:48-60.


Researchers suspect that arginine may only act as a growth hormone secretagogue at night, rather than prior to exercise or during non-exercise daytime conditions. When researchers administered 250 mg/kg/day of oral arginine aspartate to five healthy subjects aged 20 to 35 for seven days, the rise in GH that occurred during slow wave sleep was approximately 60% higher in the subjects after arginine aspartate administration than in the control period. These same results were not obtained with a lower dose of 100 mg/kg/day.

Citation: Besset A, Bonardet A, Rondouin G, Descomps B, Passouant P. Increase in sleep related GH and Prl secretion after chronic arginine aspartate administration in man. Acta Endocrinol (Copenh). 1982;99(1):18-23.


Another group of researchers achieved promising results when treating 12 normal adults with one large, 37.5-gram dose of arginine aspartate, administered orally. The treatment caused a small but significant release of serum growth hormone in these subjects.

Citation: Elsair C. Effets de l’arginine, administrie par voie orale. C R Soc Biol. 1985;179:608.



For further reading; you can go here...

http://jap.physiology.org/content/101/3/848.full



Now - this is NOT to dismiss combos (i.e. - arginine + ornithine -or- arginine + lysine), BUT lysine trials are very mixed and one could potentially suggest that ALL polyamines (i.e. - arginine, ornithine, citrulline, spermine, spermidine, agmatine, et al...) in certain combination could produce a "BETTER" effect than either one alone; it just hasn't been studied to my liking and if someone were to suggest contradictory info to that; I would fight them to the t as this is a topic I have looked at EXTENSIVELY!

Hope that helps explain my rationing of arginine pre-workout vs. bedtime vs. other...



D_

[ka0tik]

no macros pre? I always thought that you shouldnt work out hungry the same way as you shouldnt work out completely stuffed.
When in the 2.5 hours pre would you drink an 8:1 leucine bcaa mix?

whats your opinion of citruline malate preworkout? Agmatine? HMB?
would you take these items preworkout or just twice daily like creatine?

I'm pretty sure beta-alanine is solely for preworkout, as in 45 min before?

i know you like your 2-3 grams of niacin. Im curious what form of niacin you are interested in as well as the window of time you would take it pre workout (ie: 2-2.5 min before or 30-45 min).

where would you throw in carnitine (alcar, lclt, etc) and rala around your workout, if at all?

[dinoiii]

no macros pre? I always thought that you shouldnt work out hungry the same way as you shouldnt work out completely stuffed. When in the 2.5 hours pre would you drink an 8:1 leucine bcaa mix?

Pre-workout can be defined in many ways; but there is data on GI transit time which approximates 2-2.5 hours before a workout. I am unsure if you think you will spontaneously combust if you don't eat immediately prior to training; BUT if you look at the effect of leucine taken 2 hours before versus 2 minutes before...I'd guarantee you NO DIFFERENCE in body composition. Some will still feel like pawing out their hard-earned cash to supplement manufacturers. Hell, I make supplements and I welcome your money...but for the reasons stated...counter-regulatory subset of hormones functions best on a relatively empty stomach; namely catecholamines (re-read what I previously wrote if it is unclear what I mean when I say that). I am a fan of this kind of ingestion of macros in summary...


Post-workout (Whey hydrosylate/isolate with 25% amino pool leucine...this would be about 40 grams whey isolate with 6-7 grams added supplemental leucine)

-greater than-

Intra-workout (only if the workout is projected to extend well beyond an hour; and if this is the case...invest in gear if you expect to make gains)

-greater than-

Pre-workout (depends on how you define it...my "pre-workout" macros are 2-2.5 hours prior to lifting...now cardio is a tad different animal as it is a bit more catabolic; but people continue to NOT understand that FAT LOSS is a CATABOLIC process - you CANNOT lose fat without periods of controlled catabolism...PERIOD - anabolics aside but the rules are out the window there)



D_

[dinoiii]

whats your opinion of citruline malate preworkout? Agmatine? HMB?
would you take these items preworkout or just twice daily like creatine?

I am "possibly ok" with citrulline malate/agmatine/other polyamines in combination...BUT there is probably little place for monotherapy.

HMB: I like it - at far greater than 3 grams if your bodyweight is heavy enough (if just from a health perspective...it does have positive cholestrol effects, et al...then 3 grams is probably enough); same rules likely apply to leucine above.

I don't know who has convinced you that creatine need be taken twice daily. First, that's not true; most people do think like you though so when developing supplements we do tend to put it in both pre- and post-workout blends...But I also don't care if you take creatine on non-workout days; it may take you a longer period to arrive at an effective state (read: without loading); however, in the grand scheme...it's not like it leeches out of your pores if you miss days of not taking it. I am fine with 2.5-5 grams dependent upon the creatine salt used and your body composition pre-workout. If you want to do 5-10 grams...and I am indifferent on this; but you could split it up pre- and post-...likely won't make much of a difference either.

Be careful not to credit supplementation with "too much." It is useful; if I didn't believe that, I sure as hell would be in a different line of work and not wasting my time here - I myself also supplement...BUT be wary how much end result you are attributing to the supplements.


D_

[dinoiii]

I'm pretty sure beta-alanine is solely for preworkout, as in 45 min before?

beta-alanine and ALL acid buffers (i.e. - COP) is something I would be ok crediting immediately before a workout if you so chose.


D_

[dinoiii]

i know you like your 2-3 grams of niacin. Im curious what form of niacin you are interested in as well as the window of time you would take it pre workout (ie: 2-2.5 min before or 30-45 min).

Yeah; ya know - without any kind of cholesterol issues and from an ergogenic benefit alone...I say 2 grams is plenty for most - this is a little different than most molecules.

People are crazy about the types of niacin and who likes the perceived flushing effect and who simply can't stand it.

Again; this is something you can take right up til the workout, but 30-60 minutes may be best; because it's the long-term GH benefit that I am after (there are VERY few things that modify GH to any level of significance).

From a GH standpoint; I like the following all-day protocol


30-60 minutes Pre-workout:
Niacin 2000 mg (or 2 grams) --> I like a product called Endur-acin from Endurance Products (http://www.endur.com/index.cfm?fusea...2&parentpage=0)
Alpha-GPC 600-1200 mg --> Any product you can find is ok (http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/n...-60-vcaps.html -or- even Biotest alpha-GPC directly through their site)

Immediately Post-workout:
GABA - 5 grams (take your pick...the first 5 products on this page --> http://www.nutraplanet.com/search?query=GABA)

30-60 minutes before bed:
Arginine - 20 grams (not kidding on amount if you can afford it)
GABA - 5 grams


* You can likely see a lot of products suggesting GH-secretagogue, BUT they are junky-dosed and inappropriate in their structure. If you are going to modify GH in any appreciable way (defined as worthwhile increments for health and body composition efforts), this is IT as far as I am concerned!



D_

[dinoiii]

where would you throw in carnitine (alcar, lclt, etc) and rala around your workout, if at all?

Love 'em!

With the R-ALA; it depends on what you are using it for and what kind of macros (i.e. - carbs) are being ingested. If R-ALA were to fit anywhere - it would usually be post-workout though.

As for any/all mitochondrial optimizers (i.e. - the carnitines, CoQ10, Kreb's Cycle intermediates, etc...) - you can take them at any point in the day honestly; BUT I am ok with them pre-/intra-/post- wherever they fit your supplement regimen the best.


D_

[0071982WC]

Love 'em!

With the R-ALA; it depends on what you are using it for and what kind of macros (i.e. - carbs) are being ingested. If R-ALA were to fit anywhere - it would usually be post-workout though.

As for any/all mitochondrial optimizers (i.e. - the carnitines, CoQ10, Kreb's Cycle intermediates, etc...) - you can take them at any point in the day honestly; BUT I am ok with them pre-/intra-/post- wherever they fit your supplement regimen the best.

D_

I prefer to train fasted.... Black coffee only... What is your take on early am fasted training? Definitely appreciate your feedback!

[monstermash]

Extremely informative thread! Thanks Dr. H

[monstermash]

...now cardio is a tad different animal as it is a bit more catabolic; but people continue to NOT understand that FAT LOSS is a CATABOLIC process - you CANNOT lose fat without periods of controlled catabolism...PERIOD - anabolics aside but the rules are out the window there)

D_

With this said what time would you recommend a bodybuilder to do cardio during a cutting phase? ie- before workout, separate day from workout, immediately post workout, etc...

[mr.cooper69]

I'm glad you agree that arginine should be avoided in preworkout products, as well as not eating too close to the workout due to hormonal overlay as you put it (though the adrenergic response would heavily dominate over insulin and related hormones once exercise has begun). However, I'm honestly quite shocked that you stress consuming a super-fast digesting protein source immediately postworkout. Surely you can see through the marketing here?

[mr.cooper69]

no macros pre? I always thought that you shouldnt work out hungry the same way as you shouldnt work out completely stuffed.
When in the 2.5 hours pre would you drink an 8:1 leucine bcaa mix?

whats your opinion of citruline malate preworkout? Agmatine? HMB?
would you take these items preworkout or just twice daily like creatine?

I'm pretty sure beta-alanine is solely for preworkout, as in 45 min before?

i know you like your 2-3 grams of niacin. Im curious what form of niacin you are interested in as well as the window of time you would take it pre workout (ie: 2-2.5 min before or 30-45 min).

where would you throw in carnitine (alcar, lclt, etc) and rala around your workout, if at all?

There is literature showing that carbohydrates preworkout (as in several hours preworkout) increase performance.

The leucine mix will be of little value if you are in a fasted preworkout state, as the other BCAAs will not be in circulation.

Cit mal, agmatine - thumbs up
HMB - thumbs down

I'd suggest agmatine first thing in the morning or with a high carb meal. Cit mal can be dosed twice daily. HMB...meh.

Beta-alanine is fine at any time of day, not exclusively preworkout by any means.

LCLT, ALCAR, and PLCAR all confer unique benefits preworkout.

[msucurt]

Mr, cooper, I would assume that you suggest as others that a fast digesting carb immediated PWO (nothing new here). The obvious choices would be items such as malto, WMS, oats, etc.

I guess im curious as to the best overall protocol for PRE AND PWO nutrition. Maybe yourself, doc, and others can chime in what is recommended or what has worked in the 'real world" , not just on paper with endurance cyclists...

Pre - 1.5 - 2hrs preworkout (slow digesting carb with protein)
PWO - immediately PWO......
(5g LEUCINE)....then
(fast digesting carbs @ 50-100g depending on goals)...then
(40g fast digesting protein 15min after ingesting carbs)

I'm glad you agree that arginine should be avoided in preworkout products, as well as not eating too close to the workout due to hormonal overlay as you put it (though the adrenergic response would heavily dominate over insulin and related hormones once exercise has begun). However, I'm honestly quite shocked that you stress consuming a super-fast digesting protein source immediately postworkout. Surely you can see through the marketing here?

[mr.cooper69]

Mr, cooper, I would assume that you suggest as others that a fast digesting carb immediated PWO (nothing new here). The obvious choices would be items such as malto, WMS, oats, etc.

I guess im curious as to the best overall protocol for PRE AND PWO nutrition. Maybe yourself, doc, and others can chime in what is recommended or what has worked in the 'real world" , not just on paper with endurance cyclists...

Pre - 1.5 - 2hrs preworkout (slow digesting carb with protein)
PWO - immediately PWO......
(5g LEUCINE)....then
(fast digesting carbs @ 50-100g depending on goals)...then
(40g fast digesting protein 15min after ingesting carbs)

Actually, I do not suggest a fast digesting carb or protein postworkout. I see no reason that it would make any difference in body composition vs whole foods. But I await Dr. Houser's reply nonetheless.

As you said, we are not endurance cyclists. We are not completing several glycogen-depleting activities within the course of a day.

[msucurt]

I "somewhat" agree, although hard. I do believe the whole 30min window to ingest fast acting carbs is severely blown out of proportion. I really have never noticed any difference with anything PWO ive done, although this could be due to ineffective nutrition leading up to working out. Regardless, ive done the WMS, oats, yogurt, pop tarts, malto, fruit , and then followed by a "fast-acting" whey 15min later. Ehh..not any difference if i just came home, drank a nice big glass of water, maybe a little leucine and then eat my chicken breast and rice.

I want to believe the hype of the whole 30min window, but honestly i bet it makes no difference. The difference is hitting your macros for the entire day. Period.

Actually, I do not suggest a fast digesting carb or protein postworkout. I see no reason that it would make any difference in body composition vs whole foods. But I await Dr. Houser's reply nonetheless.

As you said, we are not endurance cyclists. We are not completing several glycogen-depleting activities within the course of a day.

[mr.cooper69]

I "somewhat" agree, although hard. I do believe the whole 30min window to ingest fast acting carbs is severely blown out of proportion. I really have never noticed any difference with anything PWO ive done, although this could be due to ineffective nutrition leading up to working out. Regardless, ive done the WMS, oats, yogurt, pop tarts, malto, fruit , and then followed by a "fast-acting" whey 15min later. Ehh..not any difference if i just came home, drank a nice big glass of water, maybe a little leucine and then eat my chicken breast and rice.

I want to believe the hype of the whole 30min window, but honestly i bet it makes no difference. The difference is hitting your macros for the entire day. Period.

I couldn't agree more man. There seems to be merit in a postworkout meal, but I see no need to consume some instantized whey when you can just eat food. Sure, elevating blood leucine levels is a strong cellular signal, but there is too much we do NOT know.