- 11-30-2011, 07:10 PM
- 12-08-2011, 09:20 PM
12-20-2011, 07:39 PM
Note: Today, we will merely address macronutrients (protein/aminos, in particular); at a later point we will address other ergogenic nutrients...
"Pre" has many definitions. I define "pre" by GastroIntestinal (GI) transit time; therefore about 2-2.5 hours before the workout - I am NOT a fan of macronutrients at all. It's counter-productive to hormonal outlay (counter-regulatory hormones suffer most...in particular - catecholamines - epinephrine or adrenaline / norepinephrine or noradrenaline / dopamine). Now, if one wants to throw stimulants into the mix…so be it immediately before – but macros should be left out, contrary to whatever pre-workout supplement manufacturers or vested-interest studies would lend to the contrary. I am also NOT a fan of arginine pre-workout. So how many pre-workout supplements have I eliminated?
This one is tricky. It makes some people feel better to carry their bottles, etc with them…however, I am a fan of lifting when I am in the gym and leaving the ingestion of something for when I am not. Do I think it will make an astronomical difference either way? I would answer with an EMPHATIC NO! Now, understand that cortisol is at its highest about 45 minutes into the workout (provided you are truly working “intensely” – recall the definition of this in resistance training is how close you lift to your 1RM; NOT moving from machine-to-machine quickly). I do have people ingest some form of leucine (free-form, peptides, etc…) if there workout will extend beyond 60 minutes, but from a macro standpoint; this is probably MORE than enough (contrary to what all the makers of intra-workout blends would lend you to believe). Now, this is NOT to say I object to other types of ergogenic nutrients…we’re limiting the discussion of this post to macronutrients alone.
As quick acting a protein as you possibly can. I am likely looking at a hydrosylate OR minimally, an isolate (which continues to see rising prices; so don’t be surprised if supplement manufacturers try and sell you there crappy quality protein suggesting it somehow superior…IT ISN’T!). Now – remember from the BCAA discussion thread that I am a fan of an amino acid pool consisting of leucine at 25% the total. Which means that if you were ingesting 40 grams of whey isolate/hyrdosylate; you are starting with about 4.8 grams of leucine or 12% the total amino pool. If you calculate needs for maximum MPS; you need about 6-7 grams of supplemental leucine added to this pool.
I also believe that the first whole-food meal should be about 1 hour after the workout, then resuming the 2-3 hour interval period between ingestion would occur thereafter.
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
12-20-2011, 07:58 PM
12-20-2011, 10:22 PM
Sure thing...any study showing arginine had appreciable effects used ridiculously high amounts and if you want to invest in it pre-workout...so be it; but there are plenty of things to offer you more bang for your buck.
Well, Dr. Houser - what about growth hormone stimulus with arginine? Glad you asked.
The ability of oral arginine to raise growth hormone has been investigated in numerous studies with conflicting results. For example, in one study, subjects given 6 grams of oral arginine experienced a 100% increase in plasma levels of arginine without any growth hormone release. Other researchers administered oral arginine to 12 young and 5 elderly non-obese adults, all of whom had a body mass index (BMI) less than 30. The subjects participated in three trials: resistive weight-lifting exercise with no placebo; 5 grams of oral L-arginine only; and 5 grams of arginine supplementation prior to exercise.
Citation: Braverman ER, Pfeiffer CC. Arginine and citrulline in the healing nutrients within. Facts, Findings and New Research on Amino Acids. Keats Publishing. New Canaan, Connecticut, 1986, pg. 173.
When arginine was consumed at rest, it did not significantly raise GH levels, compared with baseline values, in either the young or the old subjects. In fact, GH levels in those consuming arginine at rest were significantly lower than during the exercise-only trial. Consuming arginine before exercise did not significantly raise the GH concentrations in either the old or the young subjects, compared to exercise only. Surprisingly, the amount of GH secreted in the exercise-plus-arginine trial was 20% less than during exercise only in the young subjects, indicating arginine may actually blunt growth hormone production, particularly in the young.
Citation: Marcell TJ, Taaffe DR, Hawkins SA, Tarpenning KM, Pyka G, et al. Oral arginine does not stimulate basal or augment exercise-induced GH secretion in either young or old adults. Journal of Gerontology. 1999;54A(8):M395-399.
Other researchers drew the same conclusion in a study of 16 young men during an acute episode of resistive weight lifting. After 3 grams of oral arginine and lysine, the subjects experienced a peak GH response to exercise approximately 15% lower than during exercise without supplementation. One group of researchers, after reviewing the evidence, wrote, These results suggest that oral arginine, unlike intravenously infused arginine, does not appear to be an effective means of enhancing GH secretion.
Citation: Surninski RR, Robertson RJ, Goss FL, et al. Acute effect of amino acid ingestion and resistance exercise on plasma growth hormone concentration in young men. Int J Sport Nutr. 1997;7:48-60.
Researchers suspect that arginine may only act as a growth hormone secretagogue at night, rather than prior to exercise or during non-exercise daytime conditions. When researchers administered 250 mg/kg/day of oral arginine aspartate to five healthy subjects aged 20 to 35 for seven days, the rise in GH that occurred during slow wave sleep was approximately 60% higher in the subjects after arginine aspartate administration than in the control period. These same results were not obtained with a lower dose of 100 mg/kg/day.
Citation: Besset A, Bonardet A, Rondouin G, Descomps B, Passouant P. Increase in sleep related GH and Prl secretion after chronic arginine aspartate administration in man. Acta Endocrinol (Copenh). 1982;99(1):18-23.
Another group of researchers achieved promising results when treating 12 normal adults with one large, 37.5-gram dose of arginine aspartate, administered orally. The treatment caused a small but significant release of serum growth hormone in these subjects.
Citation: Elsair C. Effets de l’arginine, administrie par voie orale. C R Soc Biol. 1985;179:608.
For further reading; you can go here...
Now - this is NOT to dismiss combos (i.e. - arginine + ornithine -or- arginine + lysine), BUT lysine trials are very mixed and one could potentially suggest that ALL polyamines (i.e. - arginine, ornithine, citrulline, spermine, spermidine, agmatine, et al...) in certain combination could produce a "BETTER" effect than either one alone; it just hasn't been studied to my liking and if someone were to suggest contradictory info to that; I would fight them to the t as this is a topic I have looked at EXTENSIVELY!
Hope that helps explain my rationing of arginine pre-workout vs. bedtime vs. other...
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
12-21-2011, 01:56 AM
no macros pre? I always thought that you shouldnt work out hungry the same way as you shouldnt work out completely stuffed.
When in the 2.5 hours pre would you drink an 8:1 leucine bcaa mix?
whats your opinion of citruline malate preworkout? Agmatine? HMB?
would you take these items preworkout or just twice daily like creatine?
I'm pretty sure beta-alanine is solely for preworkout, as in 45 min before?
i know you like your 2-3 grams of niacin. Im curious what form of niacin you are interested in as well as the window of time you would take it pre workout (ie: 2-2.5 min before or 30-45 min).
where would you throw in carnitine (alcar, lclt, etc) and rala around your workout, if at all?
12-21-2011, 04:40 PM
Post-workout (Whey hydrosylate/isolate with 25% amino pool leucine...this would be about 40 grams whey isolate with 6-7 grams added supplemental leucine)
Intra-workout (only if the workout is projected to extend well beyond an hour; and if this is the case...invest in gear if you expect to make gains)
Pre-workout (depends on how you define it...my "pre-workout" macros are 2-2.5 hours prior to lifting...now cardio is a tad different animal as it is a bit more catabolic; but people continue to NOT understand that FAT LOSS is a CATABOLIC process - you CANNOT lose fat without periods of controlled catabolism...PERIOD - anabolics aside but the rules are out the window there)
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
12-21-2011, 04:47 PM
HMB: I like it - at far greater than 3 grams if your bodyweight is heavy enough (if just from a health perspective...it does have positive cholestrol effects, et al...then 3 grams is probably enough); same rules likely apply to leucine above.
I don't know who has convinced you that creatine need be taken twice daily. First, that's not true; most people do think like you though so when developing supplements we do tend to put it in both pre- and post-workout blends...But I also don't care if you take creatine on non-workout days; it may take you a longer period to arrive at an effective state (read: without loading); however, in the grand scheme...it's not like it leeches out of your pores if you miss days of not taking it. I am fine with 2.5-5 grams dependent upon the creatine salt used and your body composition pre-workout. If you want to do 5-10 grams...and I am indifferent on this; but you could split it up pre- and post-...likely won't make much of a difference either.
Be careful not to credit supplementation with "too much." It is useful; if I didn't believe that, I sure as hell would be in a different line of work and not wasting my time here - I myself also supplement...BUT be wary how much end result you are attributing to the supplements.
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
12-21-2011, 04:48 PM
12-21-2011, 05:00 PM
People are crazy about the types of niacin and who likes the perceived flushing effect and who simply can't stand it.
Again; this is something you can take right up til the workout, but 30-60 minutes may be best; because it's the long-term GH benefit that I am after (there are VERY few things that modify GH to any level of significance).
From a GH standpoint; I like the following all-day protocol
30-60 minutes Pre-workout:
Niacin 2000 mg (or 2 grams) --> I like a product called Endur-acin from Endurance Products (http://www.endur.com/index.cfm?fusea...2&parentpage=0)
Alpha-GPC 600-1200 mg --> Any product you can find is ok (http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/n...-60-vcaps.html -or- even Biotest alpha-GPC directly through their site)
GABA - 5 grams (take your pick...the first 5 products on this page --> http://www.nutraplanet.com/search?query=GABA)
30-60 minutes before bed:
Arginine - 20 grams (not kidding on amount if you can afford it)
GABA - 5 grams
* You can likely see a lot of products suggesting GH-secretagogue, BUT they are junky-dosed and inappropriate in their structure. If you are going to modify GH in any appreciable way (defined as worthwhile increments for health and body composition efforts), this is IT as far as I am concerned!
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
12-21-2011, 05:03 PM
With the R-ALA; it depends on what you are using it for and what kind of macros (i.e. - carbs) are being ingested. If R-ALA were to fit anywhere - it would usually be post-workout though.
As for any/all mitochondrial optimizers (i.e. - the carnitines, CoQ10, Kreb's Cycle intermediates, etc...) - you can take them at any point in the day honestly; BUT I am ok with them pre-/intra-/post- wherever they fit your supplement regimen the best.
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
12-21-2011, 06:11 PM
I prefer to train fasted.... Black coffee only... What is your take on early am fasted training? Definitely appreciate your feedback!Originally Posted by dinoiii
12-23-2011, 09:05 AM
12-23-2011, 09:15 AM
12-25-2011, 01:42 AM
I'm glad you agree that arginine should be avoided in preworkout products, as well as not eating too close to the workout due to hormonal overlay as you put it (though the adrenergic response would heavily dominate over insulin and related hormones once exercise has begun). However, I'm honestly quite shocked that you stress consuming a super-fast digesting protein source immediately postworkout. Surely you can see through the marketing here?
12-25-2011, 01:45 AM
The leucine mix will be of little value if you are in a fasted preworkout state, as the other BCAAs will not be in circulation.
Cit mal, agmatine - thumbs up
HMB - thumbs down
I'd suggest agmatine first thing in the morning or with a high carb meal. Cit mal can be dosed twice daily. HMB...meh.
Beta-alanine is fine at any time of day, not exclusively preworkout by any means.
LCLT, ALCAR, and PLCAR all confer unique benefits preworkout.
12-25-2011, 04:21 PM
Mr, cooper, I would assume that you suggest as others that a fast digesting carb immediated PWO (nothing new here). The obvious choices would be items such as malto, WMS, oats, etc.
I guess im curious as to the best overall protocol for PRE AND PWO nutrition. Maybe yourself, doc, and others can chime in what is recommended or what has worked in the 'real world" , not just on paper with endurance cyclists...
Pre - 1.5 - 2hrs preworkout (slow digesting carb with protein)
PWO - immediately PWO......
(fast digesting carbs @ 50-100g depending on goals)...then
(40g fast digesting protein 15min after ingesting carbs)
12-25-2011, 06:57 PM
As you said, we are not endurance cyclists. We are not completing several glycogen-depleting activities within the course of a day.
12-26-2011, 02:31 AM
I "somewhat" agree, although hard. I do believe the whole 30min window to ingest fast acting carbs is severely blown out of proportion. I really have never noticed any difference with anything PWO ive done, although this could be due to ineffective nutrition leading up to working out. Regardless, ive done the WMS, oats, yogurt, pop tarts, malto, fruit , and then followed by a "fast-acting" whey 15min later. Ehh..not any difference if i just came home, drank a nice big glass of water, maybe a little leucine and then eat my chicken breast and rice.
I want to believe the hype of the whole 30min window, but honestly i bet it makes no difference. The difference is hitting your macros for the entire day. Period.
12-26-2011, 03:03 AM
12-26-2011, 01:03 PM
12-26-2011, 08:38 PM
Yes, I DO, in FACT, recommend consuming a FAST-DIGESTING protein immediately POST-WORKOUT and we can go the route of study wars if you prefer. But the reality is - you are (and we have measured in the lab) at a CORTISOL MAX roughly 45 minutes into an "intense" aerobic and/or anaerobic training session (I have reviewed in countless areas what qualifies a workout as "intense" on both parameters and guarantee that 90% of gym-goers ARE NOT employing it, which would be the ONLY marketing).
Cortisol leads the counter-regulatory hormone cascades; ... the way to stop it? Ingest something QUICK! We have done the carb vs. protein stuff too and absolutely - without a shadow of a doubt - can say it's PROTEIN that needs to be had to maximize MPS (I will also again reiterate that my NON-MARKETING offer is 25% of a TOTAL AMINO POOL - not just BCAA or even EAA need be LEUCINE in that scenario; anything less than that and you simply can do better - if you chose not to and think I am even remotely into "marketing," then that's on you and you are welcome to do as you chose, BUT IMO you could do better if you're not employing this strategy (have worked with > 12,000 clients over the last 16 years and I see it every time); we'll leave it at that as this is the question I was asked and I answered in the truest form...I have said NOTHING here with a marketing twist nor am I making ANY MONEY on protein supplements as that is a market with VERY LITTLE return on your investment for MANY REASONS).
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
12-26-2011, 09:06 PM
Untrue as I have offered you the time it takes for GI transit and you have seemingly scoffed at this data. Again, "pre-workout" can certainly be defined differently by many...I have defined my view above and in the BCAA Discussion thread. It is your choice to accept or retract it, but I guarantee you haven't tried my way (and I know you cannot say yes), so I will maintain my position...thanks.The leucine mix will be of little value if you are in a fasted preworkout state, as the other BCAAs will not be in circulation.
Interesting...you support polyamines like these (with FAR LESS research) as opposed to leucine and fasted (vs. unfasted) adrenergic response.Cit mal, agmatine - thumbs up
I will invite Drs. Gabriel and Jacob Wilson (much better people to discuss HMB) in to this thread if they have time...I really don't have time to go into all of this. The data is simple and health effects aside (cholesterol benefits are VERY obvious); from a body composition effect...the one thing that is unfortunate is that you place polyamines higher than leucine and HMB - that is mildly humorous ya know?HMB - thumbs down
One unfortuante thing is that HMB has always been suggested as a supplement for the "novice" lifter, which is fine, but like leucine "research," it does NOT account for body composition change/progression and/or volume of distribution differences (i.e. - more leucine for higher body mass and so on than a simple 3 grams...). Suggesting the novice and the well-trained (with a much higher volume of distribution) athlete consume the same measly 3 grams of HMB is proposterous...but that's the "evidence" suggested by negative HMB studies. Again...don't take it...I don't care, but you haven't looked at the data and judging by your responses, I am guessing you have some vested interest in some of these agents somehow (do you work for a company?).
Not that I am protesting it (as I actually like polyamines), but seeing how you are suggesting more scientific basis than apparently what I have offered above; care to suggest a piece of literature that supports agmatine or citrulline malate in the fashion you describe....I can find the data for HMB well-defined.I'd suggest agmatine first thing in the morning or with a high carb meal. Cit mal can be dosed twice daily. HMB...meh.
I don't necessarily disagree, but understand that plasma concentrations rise rapidly, peaking within 30 to 45 minutes, and being eliminated after 90 to 120 minutes (hence why paresthesia is even an issue...only for those who rapidly metabolize it would the profile look different in the ACUTE setting). It's buffering capacity is much better dealt with in the acute setting for novice lifters consuming pre-workout. Multi-day dosing has merely been employed to prevent paresthesia and if you want to do it that way...so be it; it won't ultimately make a difference when muscle carnosine concentrations rise (but again, this is more long-term and it is sometimes easier to suggest things be maintained for ease when telling people how best to supplement).Beta-alanine is fine at any time of day, not exclusively preworkout by any means.
We are effectively in agreement here; however...pre-workout has not been studied extensively or even at all with all forms as you seem to suggest (are we keeping this study-based on some and not on others?).LCLT, ALCAR, and PLCAR all confer unique benefits preworkout.
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
12-26-2011, 09:08 PM
I will get to more posts at a later time...as I am out of time at the moment.
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
12-26-2011, 09:56 PM
I will touch on all your points hopefully later tonight, Dr. Houser, but a few things I would like to make clear:
-No need to defend HMB so vociferously. I don't disagree that it works, but I simply find leucine more effective.
-I'm not sure where you got the idea that I don't like leucine. The fact is that I find it very effective, with a simple 0.045-0.065g/kg BW dose maximizing MPS. My comment was with regards to uptake; the literature isn't published yet but the author gave me and a few others a sneak peak. I do not place citrulline malate or agmatine above leucine. I do place them above HMB, simply BECAUSE I consider leucine to be superior to HMB.
-By preworkout, I don't mean 2 hours, I mean around 4 hours preworkout. That might seem like a ludicrous time frame, but IMO that is when food should be ingested, accounting for GI transit time and other factors.
In short, I am in agreement with you with respect to leucine and preworkout nutrient timing; my response to the other poster did not have disguised feelings like "leucine sucks" or what have you.
As far as citrulline malate, there is a fair bit of relevant research preworkout.
For the carnitines, we know their benefits when taken orally; why shouldn't the benefits apply preworkout? ALCAR surely confers focus preworkout, and PLCAR helps me in the fatigue department. And LCLT has loads of research with respect to training.
The intent was not to attack your viewpoints, and even if you felt it was, I'm glad that you offered some in-depth discussion. I have read your response with respect to postworkout nutrition and that appears to be the only real point we disagree on, unless you feel that it is worth supplementing HMB on top of leucine, or that the Scivation study on leucine uptake has ulterior motivations (understandably so), in which case we'd disagree on those points as well.
I'll be on later tonight to express my viewpoint. As a side note, I never accused you of using marketing tactics, but I was merely speaking about products like hydrolyzed whey, which has even been demonstrated to be inferior to WPI (I believe) as far as body composition is concerned.
Anyway, thanks for the response, be back again soon.
12-27-2011, 12:00 AM
I probably won't get to type up my full response tonight but I didn't want to leave you hanging. Here is my take:
It ultimately comes down to training fasted vs non-fasted and our inherent disagreement there.
Cortisol postworkout is not an issue if you have a proper preworkout meal. However, such a meal would likely fall around the ~1.5-2 hour mark if it is to reduce the cortisol response postworkout as well.
So the alternative? Train fasted. In such an instance, I am in full agreement that cortisol can become an issue. So much of an issue that you need to consume hydrolyzed whey? No, not particularly. The reason I say this is because most people who train fasted are clever enough to use an adequate dose of BCAAs pre or intraworkout. After all, training fasted is a time when catabolism could come into play, not to mention the effect of BCAAs on mTOR. If the BCAAs are skipped AND the individual is training fasted, then by all means consume some form of whey postworkout. Cortisol and catabolism are significant issues in this instance.
Now, in terms of traning fasted vs not fasted: As you say, the adrenergic response will be blunted if one has eaten too close to a workout. Now there isn't really any literature on norepinephrine/epinephrine's effects on strength (or maybe there is, but I couldn't locate it), so we will have to go off anecdote here. You could argue that caffeine is proven to improve exercise performance, but caffeine has other effects in the body, such as vasodilation via the beta-2 receptor during exercise. If we are speaking on anecdote, the best thing we can say is "do what works for you." I understand that you've trained 16,000 clients. But among my friends who have tried intermittent fasting vs closely preworkout nutrition, they each have their preferences; some shifted more weight in one scenario vs the other; others (such as myself) noticed no difference in strength after repeated tries at each protocol.
As far as adrenergic hormones are concerned, fasted training does appear more favorable. While the effects of the aforementioned hormones seem to favor better workouts by putting your body in a "ready" state, the tradeoff with elevated cortisol for the latter half of most workouts makes it a tough call. Both fluctuations are mediated by preworkout nutrition or lack thereof, and as far as performance, there is too much variation in preworkout nutrition preference, at least in my experiences (you have obviously seen much more than me, so feel free to chime in). Either way, I am simply not convinced that either the briefly elevated cortisol or the blunted adrenergic response is significant enough to alter body composition.
I'm open to discussion, and I have frequently changed my perspective as I have learned more, so feel free to "school" me .
Before I leave you, here's a nice quote from Alan Aragon:
"Post-exercise insulin spiking has become standard practice in bodybuilding because of the perpetuation of hearsay, nothing more. It's a case of bro see, bro do - no critical thought, no questioning of why. As a result, many people believe that unless you consume a fast-acting liquid mix of [insert the latest hyped quickie carb & protein source], you won't achieve the walloping insulin spike supposedly necessary for recovery. But here's what everyone misses or chooses to ignore: the nutrient-mediated insulin elevation from food required to max out net anabolism is relatively minor. Insulin's ability to prevent muscle protein breakdown (even in the midst of ample amino acid availability via continuous infusion) is maximal at about 3-4 times the normal basal levels of insulin.
To reiterate, insulin's suppression of protein breakdown is maximal with modest elevations; even less than what's seen during normal feeding. As a matter of fact, a properly placed pre-exercise meal will keep insulin sufficiently elevated even after your training bout is over. To put things into perspective, a regular solid meal can elevate insulin anywhere from 4-8 times fasting levels depending on size, and keep it elevated for a few hours. As little as 6 g of essential amino acids plus 35 g sucrose taken immediately pre-exercise can keep insulin elevated to roughly 4 times fasting levels 1 hour after 40-50 minutes of resistance training. What do you think insulin levels would look like with a typical preworkout meal or shake containing at least as much carbs & double the protein? "
And then there's his research review, which is really nice:
01-31-2012, 02:46 AM
02-02-2012, 08:20 PM
when i mix a bunch of unflavored powders i will ussually add a flavor powder like crystal light. i know what you mean about arginine's flavor (only tasted akg but im sure its similar). maybe add it to chocolate milk to make it more like a protein shake?
you could also go drug addict status and parachute it. wrap it in a small piece of tissue paper and swallow it. although i have never parachuted anything but i have heard of people doing it generally with 1-3 grams of MDMA
02-04-2012, 02:40 PM
Here's something I found:
I may experiment with this method. (Although I don't want to use the grape juice it talks about.)
02-04-2012, 02:51 PM
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