Doc,
How do you do pre,intra,and post workout both nutrition and supplement wise?
How do you do pre,intra,and post workout both nutrition and supplement wise?
Pre-workout can be defined in many ways; but there is data on GI transit time which approximates 2-2.5 hours before a workout. I am unsure if you think you will spontaneously combust if you don't eat immediately prior to training; BUT if you look at the effect of leucine taken 2 hours before versus 2 minutes before...I'd guarantee you NO DIFFERENCE in body composition. Some will still feel like pawing out their hard-earned cash to supplement manufacturers. Hell, I make supplements and I welcome your money...but for the reasons stated...counter-regulatory subset of hormones functions best on a relatively empty stomach; namely catecholamines (re-read what I previously wrote if it is unclear what I mean when I say that). I am a fan of this kind of ingestion of macros in summary...no macros pre? I always thought that you shouldnt work out hungry the same way as you shouldnt work out completely stuffed. When in the 2.5 hours pre would you drink an 8:1 leucine bcaa mix?
I am "possibly ok" with citrulline malate/agmatine/other polyamines in combination...BUT there is probably little place for monotherapy.whats your opinion of citruline malate preworkout? Agmatine? HMB?
would you take these items preworkout or just twice daily like creatine?
beta-alanine and ALL acid buffers (i.e. - COP) is something I would be ok crediting immediately before a workout if you so chose.I'm pretty sure beta-alanine is solely for preworkout, as in 45 min before?
Yeah; ya know - without any kind of cholesterol issues and from an ergogenic benefit alone...I say 2 grams is plenty for most - this is a little different than most molecules.i know you like your 2-3 grams of niacin. Im curious what form of niacin you are interested in as well as the window of time you would take it pre workout (ie: 2-2.5 min before or 30-45 min).
where would you throw in carnitine (alcar, lclt, etc) and rala around your workout, if at all?
I prefer to train fasted.... Black coffee only... What is your take on early am fasted training? Definitely appreciate your feedback!Love 'em!
With the R-ALA; it depends on what you are using it for and what kind of macros (i.e. - carbs) are being ingested. If R-ALA were to fit anywhere - it would usually be post-workout though.
As for any/all mitochondrial optimizers (i.e. - the carnitines, CoQ10, Kreb's Cycle intermediates, etc...) - you can take them at any point in the day honestly; BUT I am ok with them pre-/intra-/post- wherever they fit your supplement regimen the best.
D_
With this said what time would you recommend a bodybuilder to do cardio during a cutting phase? ie- before workout, separate day from workout, immediately post workout, etc......now cardio is a tad different animal as it is a bit more catabolic; but people continue to NOT understand that FAT LOSS is a CATABOLIC process - you CANNOT lose fat without periods of controlled catabolism...PERIOD - anabolics aside but the rules are out the window there)
D_
There is literature showing that carbohydrates preworkout (as in several hours preworkout) increase performance.no macros pre? I always thought that you shouldnt work out hungry the same way as you shouldnt work out completely stuffed.
When in the 2.5 hours pre would you drink an 8:1 leucine bcaa mix?
whats your opinion of citruline malate preworkout? Agmatine? HMB?
would you take these items preworkout or just twice daily like creatine?
I'm pretty sure beta-alanine is solely for preworkout, as in 45 min before?
i know you like your 2-3 grams of niacin. Im curious what form of niacin you are interested in as well as the window of time you would take it pre workout (ie: 2-2.5 min before or 30-45 min).
where would you throw in carnitine (alcar, lclt, etc) and rala around your workout, if at all?
I'm glad you agree that arginine should be avoided in preworkout products, as well as not eating too close to the workout due to hormonal overlay as you put it (though the adrenergic response would heavily dominate over insulin and related hormones once exercise has begun). However, I'm honestly quite shocked that you stress consuming a super-fast digesting protein source immediately postworkout. Surely you can see through the marketing here?
Actually, I do not suggest a fast digesting carb or protein postworkout. I see no reason that it would make any difference in body composition vs whole foods. But I await Dr. Houser's reply nonetheless.Mr, cooper, I would assume that you suggest as others that a fast digesting carb immediated PWO (nothing new here). The obvious choices would be items such as malto, WMS, oats, etc.
I guess im curious as to the best overall protocol for PRE AND PWO nutrition. Maybe yourself, doc, and others can chime in what is recommended or what has worked in the 'real world" , not just on paper with endurance cyclists...
Pre - 1.5 - 2hrs preworkout (slow digesting carb with protein)
PWO - immediately PWO......
(5g LEUCINE)....then
(fast digesting carbs @ 50-100g depending on goals)...then
(40g fast digesting protein 15min after ingesting carbs)
Actually, I do not suggest a fast digesting carb or protein postworkout. I see no reason that it would make any difference in body composition vs whole foods. But I await Dr. Houser's reply nonetheless.
As you said, we are not endurance cyclists. We are not completing several glycogen-depleting activities within the course of a day.
I couldn't agree more man. There seems to be merit in a postworkout meal, but I see no need to consume some instantized whey when you can just eat food. Sure, elevating blood leucine levels is a strong cellular signal, but there is too much we do NOT know.I "somewhat" agree, although hard. I do believe the whole 30min window to ingest fast acting carbs is severely blown out of proportion. I really have never noticed any difference with anything PWO ive done, although this could be due to ineffective nutrition leading up to working out. Regardless, ive done the WMS, oats, yogurt, pop tarts, malto, fruit , and then followed by a "fast-acting" whey 15min later. Ehh..not any difference if i just came home, drank a nice big glass of water, maybe a little leucine and then eat my chicken breast and rice.
I want to believe the hype of the whole 30min window, but honestly i bet it makes no difference. The difference is hitting your macros for the entire day. Period.
theres a reason why people love leangains fasting protocolI want to believe the hype of the whole 30min window, but honestly i bet it makes no difference. The difference is hitting your macros for the entire day. Period.
As for the adrenergic response; unsure where you are getting your data, but this is simply NOT true. Insulin WILL impede this and in precipitous fashion; in fact - isoproterenol injection's pro-adrenergic effect (a MUCH larger pro-adrenergic effect than even exercise right into the vein) is haulted by > 40% on average with a carb-laden meal, if not accounting for GI transit time (2-2.5 hours).I'm glad you agree that arginine should be avoided in preworkout products, as well as not eating too close to the workout due to hormonal overlay as you put it (though the adrenergic response would heavily dominate over insulin and related hormones once exercise has begun). However, I'm honestly quite shocked that you stress consuming a super-fast digesting protein source immediately postworkout. Surely you can see through the marketing here?
I assure you said "literature" does have vested interest. Take a peak at study author disclosures.There is literature showing that carbohydrates preworkout (as in several hours preworkout) increase performance.
Untrue as I have offered you the time it takes for GI transit and you have seemingly scoffed at this data. Again, "pre-workout" can certainly be defined differently by many...I have defined my view above and in the BCAA Discussion thread. It is your choice to accept or retract it, but I guarantee you haven't tried my way (and I know you cannot say yes), so I will maintain my position...thanks.The leucine mix will be of little value if you are in a fasted preworkout state, as the other BCAAs will not be in circulation.
Interesting...you support polyamines like these (with FAR LESS research) as opposed to leucine and fasted (vs. unfasted) adrenergic response.Cit mal, agmatine - thumbs up
I will invite Drs. Gabriel and Jacob Wilson (much better people to discuss HMB) in to this thread if they have time...I really don't have time to go into all of this. The data is simple and health effects aside (cholesterol benefits are VERY obvious); from a body composition effect...the one thing that is unfortunate is that you place polyamines higher than leucine and HMB - that is mildly humorous ya know?HMB - thumbs down
Not that I am protesting it (as I actually like polyamines), but seeing how you are suggesting more scientific basis than apparently what I have offered above; care to suggest a piece of literature that supports agmatine or citrulline malate in the fashion you describe....I can find the data for HMB well-defined.I'd suggest agmatine first thing in the morning or with a high carb meal. Cit mal can be dosed twice daily. HMB...meh.
I don't necessarily disagree, but understand that plasma concentrations rise rapidly, peaking within 30 to 45 minutes, and being eliminated after 90 to 120 minutes (hence why paresthesia is even an issue...only for those who rapidly metabolize it would the profile look different in the ACUTE setting). It's buffering capacity is much better dealt with in the acute setting for novice lifters consuming pre-workout. Multi-day dosing has merely been employed to prevent paresthesia and if you want to do it that way...so be it; it won't ultimately make a difference when muscle carnosine concentrations rise (but again, this is more long-term and it is sometimes easier to suggest things be maintained for ease when telling people how best to supplement).Beta-alanine is fine at any time of day, not exclusively preworkout by any means.
We are effectively in agreement here; however...pre-workout has not been studied extensively or even at all with all forms as you seem to suggest (are we keeping this study-based on some and not on others?).LCLT, ALCAR, and PLCAR all confer unique benefits preworkout.
^^^Tonight I tried this pre-bed "stack" and it was horrific! Gaba is fine. I kind of like the taste. BUT arginine has got to be one of the worst tasting powders. And 20 grams of it! Wow!30-60 minutes before bed:
Arginine - 20 grams (not kidding on amount if you can afford it)
GABA - 5 grams
buy capsules, lol^^^Tonight I tried this pre-bed "stack" and it was horrific! Gaba is fine. I kind of like the taste. BUT arginine has got to be one of the worst tasting powders. And 20 grams of it! Wow!
Does anyone have any clever ways in which they down arginine?
20grams is a relatively large pile of powder when considering caps or parachuting. It would be 30+ caps or a few large parachutes. But thanks for the advice.buy capsules, lol
when i mix a bunch of unflavored powders i will ussually add a flavor powder like crystal light. i know what you mean about arginine's flavor (only tasted akg but im sure its similar). maybe add it to chocolate milk to make it more like a protein shake?
you could also go drug addict status and parachute it. wrap it in a small piece of tissue paper and swallow it. although i have never parachuted anything but i have heard of people doing it generally with 1-3 grams of MDMA
I probably won't get to type up my full response tonight but I didn't want to leave you hanging. Here is my take:
It ultimately comes down to training fasted vs non-fasted and our inherent disagreement there.
Cortisol postworkout is not an issue if you have a proper preworkout meal. However, such a meal would likely fall around the ~1.5-2 hour mark if it is to reduce the cortisol response postworkout as well.
So the alternative? Train fasted. In such an instance, I am in full agreement that cortisol can become an issue. So much of an issue that you need to consume hydrolyzed whey? No, not particularly. The reason I say this is because most people who train fasted are clever enough to use an adequate dose of BCAAs pre or intraworkout. After all, training fasted is a time when catabolism could come into play, not to mention the effect of BCAAs on mTOR. If the BCAAs are skipped AND the individual is training fasted, then by all means consume some form of whey postworkout. Cortisol and catabolism are significant issues in this instance.
Now, in terms of traning fasted vs not fasted: As you say, the adrenergic response will be blunted if one has eaten too close to a workout. Now there isn't really any literature on norepinephrine/epinephrine's effects on strength (or maybe there is, but I couldn't locate it), so we will have to go off anecdote here. You could argue that caffeine is proven to improve exercise performance, but caffeine has other effects in the body, such as vasodilation via the beta-2 receptor during exercise. If we are speaking on anecdote, the best thing we can say is "do what works for you." I understand that you've trained 16,000 clients. But among my friends who have tried intermittent fasting vs closely preworkout nutrition, they each have their preferences; some shifted more weight in one scenario vs the other; others (such as myself) noticed no difference in strength after repeated tries at each protocol.
As far as adrenergic hormones are concerned, fasted training does appear more favorable. While the effects of the aforementioned hormones seem to favor better workouts by putting your body in a "ready" state, the tradeoff with elevated cortisol for the latter half of most workouts makes it a tough call. Both fluctuations are mediated by preworkout nutrition or lack thereof, and as far as performance, there is too much variation in preworkout nutrition preference, at least in my experiences (you have obviously seen much more than me, so feel free to chime in). Either way, I am simply not convinced that either the briefly elevated cortisol or the blunted adrenergic response is significant enough to alter body composition.
I'm open to discussion, and I have frequently changed my perspective as I have learned more, so feel free to "school" me .
Before I leave you, here's a nice quote from Alan Aragon:
"Post-exercise insulin spiking has become standard practice in bodybuilding because of the perpetuation of hearsay, nothing more. It's a case of bro see, bro do - no critical thought, no questioning of why. As a result, many people believe that unless you consume a fast-acting liquid mix of [insert the latest hyped quickie carb & protein source], you won't achieve the walloping insulin spike supposedly necessary for recovery. But here's what everyone misses or chooses to ignore: the nutrient-mediated insulin elevation from food required to max out net anabolism is relatively minor. Insulin's ability to prevent muscle protein breakdown (even in the midst of ample amino acid availability via continuous infusion) is maximal at about 3-4 times the normal basal levels of insulin.
To reiterate, insulin's suppression of protein breakdown is maximal with modest elevations; even less than what's seen during normal feeding. As a matter of fact, a properly placed pre-exercise meal will keep insulin sufficiently elevated even after your training bout is over. To put things into perspective, a regular solid meal can elevate insulin anywhere from 4-8 times fasting levels depending on size, and keep it elevated for a few hours. As little as 6 g of essential amino acids plus 35 g sucrose taken immediately pre-exercise can keep insulin elevated to roughly 4 times fasting levels 1 hour after 40-50 minutes of resistance training. What do you think insulin levels would look like with a typical preworkout meal or shake containing at least as much carbs & double the protein? "
And then there's his research review, which is really nice:
http://user210805.websitewizard.com/files/unprotected/AARR-Jan-2008.pdf
Concerning the "immediately post-workout" portion...From a GH standpoint; I like the following all-day protocol
30-60 minutes Pre-workout:
Niacin 2000 mg (or 2 grams) --> I like a product called Endur-acin from Endurance Products (http://www.endur.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=shopping.display&subcatid=2&pageid=2&parentid=2&parentpage=0)
Alpha-GPC 600-1200 mg --> Any product you can find is ok (http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/now-foods/alpha-gpc-300-mg-60-vcaps.html -or- even Biotest alpha-GPC directly through their site)
Immediately Post-workout:
GABA - 5 grams (take your pick...the first 5 products on this page --> http://www.nutraplanet.com/search?query=GABA)
30-60 minutes before bed:
Arginine - 20 grams (not kidding on amount if you can afford it)
GABA - 5 grams
Dr. Houser,I will invite Drs. Gabriel and Jacob Wilson (much better people to discuss HMB) in to this thread if they have time...I really don't have time to go into all of this. The data is simple and health effects aside (cholesterol benefits are VERY obvious); from a body composition effect...the one thing that is unfortunate is that you place polyamines higher than leucine and HMB - that is mildly humorous ya know?
One unfortuante thing is that HMB has always been suggested as a supplement for the "novice" lifter, which is fine, but like leucine "research," it does NOT account for body composition change/progression and/or volume of distribution differences (i.e. - more leucine for higher body mass and so on than a simple 3 grams...). Suggesting the novice and the well-trained (with a much higher volume of distribution) athlete consume the same measly 3 grams of HMB is proposterous...but that's the "evidence" suggested by negative HMB studies. Again...don't take it...I don't care, but you haven't looked at the data and judging by your responses, I am guessing you have some vested interest in some of these agents somehow (do you work for a company?).
BumpDr. Houser,
Can we get some more talk on HMB and Humanofort? I know you support HMB for cholesterol effects, but can you elaborate a bit more on its use for body composition effects?
If the 3 gram dose won't do anything for trained athletes, at what dose will effects begin to take place?
Also, how did your experimentation go with Humanofort?
x2.this thread is amazing subbed for more answers!
The normal cortisol response to weight training is actually correlated with higher LBM. Same thing with ROS -> better recovery. Bottom line: stop trying to micromanage everything and lift!It gets so crazy with all the conflicting information. Ben Pakulski(IBBFF Pro, Kinesiologist and psycho researcher) in MI40 says to avoid carbs close to workouts because it blunts the release of GH which normally would occur at the beginning of a workout, but that you should take a fast acting carb(Karbolyn, Kwik Karb, Dymatize Flud, etc) about 30 minutes into the workout to allow GH to be released but then cut off the rise in cortisol that would normally happen. I have read several studies on ergo-log.com that show taking a fast digesting carb really blunts cortisol release during and after exercise, which leads to a much better Testosterone:Cortisol ratio(the "anabolic ratio"), which is one of the keys to being in an anabolic state...I can't post the link because I don't have enough posts, but if you go to ergo-log.com and search "cortisol during weight training" the first result that comes up is the one with one of the studies showing a graph of cortisol levels for people who took sugars during training and those who didn't...title of study is "Muscle fibres grow faster with 40 g sugars during strength training"
Got any pertinent studies showing this? All of the studies I have read and seen and most of the programs I have read state the opposite...The normal cortisol response to weight training is actually correlated with higher LBM. Same thing with ROS -> better recovery. Bottom line: stop trying to micromanage everything and lift!
Plenty. Go to the suppversity blog. It's far superior to ergologGot any pertinent studies showing this? All of the studies I have read and seen and most of the programs I have read state the opposite...
Thanks for the heads up! Seems like they have a lot of good stuff there...Plenty. Go to the suppversity blog. It's far superior to ergolog