Workout Nutrition

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I probably won't get to type up my full response tonight but I didn't want to leave you hanging. Here is my take:

    It ultimately comes down to training fasted vs non-fasted and our inherent disagreement there.

    Cortisol postworkout is not an issue if you have a proper preworkout meal. However, such a meal would likely fall around the ~1.5-2 hour mark if it is to reduce the cortisol response postworkout as well.

    So the alternative? Train fasted. In such an instance, I am in full agreement that cortisol can become an issue. So much of an issue that you need to consume hydrolyzed whey? No, not particularly. The reason I say this is because most people who train fasted are clever enough to use an adequate dose of BCAAs pre or intraworkout. After all, training fasted is a time when catabolism could come into play, not to mention the effect of BCAAs on mTOR. If the BCAAs are skipped AND the individual is training fasted, then by all means consume some form of whey postworkout. Cortisol and catabolism are significant issues in this instance.

    Now, in terms of traning fasted vs not fasted: As you say, the adrenergic response will be blunted if one has eaten too close to a workout. Now there isn't really any literature on norepinephrine/epinephrine's effects on strength (or maybe there is, but I couldn't locate it), so we will have to go off anecdote here. You could argue that caffeine is proven to improve exercise performance, but caffeine has other effects in the body, such as vasodilation via the beta-2 receptor during exercise. If we are speaking on anecdote, the best thing we can say is "do what works for you." I understand that you've trained 16,000 clients. But among my friends who have tried intermittent fasting vs closely preworkout nutrition, they each have their preferences; some shifted more weight in one scenario vs the other; others (such as myself) noticed no difference in strength after repeated tries at each protocol.

    As far as adrenergic hormones are concerned, fasted training does appear more favorable. While the effects of the aforementioned hormones seem to favor better workouts by putting your body in a "ready" state, the tradeoff with elevated cortisol for the latter half of most workouts makes it a tough call. Both fluctuations are mediated by preworkout nutrition or lack thereof, and as far as performance, there is too much variation in preworkout nutrition preference, at least in my experiences (you have obviously seen much more than me, so feel free to chime in). Either way, I am simply not convinced that either the briefly elevated cortisol or the blunted adrenergic response is significant enough to alter body composition.

    I'm open to discussion, and I have frequently changed my perspective as I have learned more, so feel free to "school" me .

    Before I leave you, here's a nice quote from Alan Aragon:

    "Post-exercise insulin spiking has become standard practice in bodybuilding because of the perpetuation of hearsay, nothing more. It's a case of bro see, bro do - no critical thought, no questioning of why. As a result, many people believe that unless you consume a fast-acting liquid mix of [insert the latest hyped quickie carb & protein source], you won't achieve the walloping insulin spike supposedly necessary for recovery. But here's what everyone misses or chooses to ignore: the nutrient-mediated insulin elevation from food required to max out net anabolism is relatively minor. Insulin's ability to prevent muscle protein breakdown (even in the midst of ample amino acid availability via continuous infusion) is maximal at about 3-4 times the normal basal levels of insulin.

    To reiterate, insulin's suppression of protein breakdown is maximal with modest elevations; even less than what's seen during normal feeding. As a matter of fact, a properly placed pre-exercise meal will keep insulin sufficiently elevated even after your training bout is over. To put things into perspective, a regular solid meal can elevate insulin anywhere from 4-8 times fasting levels depending on size, and keep it elevated for a few hours. As little as 6 g of essential amino acids plus 35 g sucrose taken immediately pre-exercise can keep insulin elevated to roughly 4 times fasting levels 1 hour after 40-50 minutes of resistance training. What do you think insulin levels would look like with a typical preworkout meal or shake containing at least as much carbs & double the protein? "

    And then there's his research review, which is really nice:

    http://user210805.websitewizard.com/...R-Jan-2008.pdf

    I admittedly read this a long time ago and forgot about it unfortunately.


    Let me start by saying that I simply have NEVER suggested use of ANYTHING to "SPIKE INSULIN" or whatever the Alan Aragon quote was for. I said maximization of MPS + maintenance of Positive Nitrogen Balance REQUIRE an immediate post-workout PROTEIN LOAD. In fact, I'll go you one further...I am actually against ANY and ALL supplements that are carb-laden; I just don't think you need to supplement carbs...P-E-R-I-O-D; and that includes so-called "weight-gainer" formulas. Carbs are exceedingly cheap and a way that a company gets away with charging you a ****-ton for very little.

    PRE-exercise ingestion of macronutrients significantly attenuates counter-regulatory hormone cascades and this is very problematic in offering the PHYSIQUE athlete (remember that there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between aesthetics and athletics; and I think far too many people try and combine the two) opportune periods of CONTROLLED CATABOLISM (of which, there are ONLY TWO TIMES PER DAY THAT YOU CAN ACHIEVE THIS SUCCESSFULLY and one you are lying horizontal), necessary for continued PROGRESSIVE ANABOLISM. Cortisol is not at a peak until 45-55 minutes into a workout and as a "natural" athlete (although natural is a very BLURRED term at present, but if you were using anabolics or other anabolic/anti-catabolic substances, general rules don't apply the same), workouts should not extend much longer than that. If continued attempts at working out are intended to extend significantly beyond that point (at which time, you're likely shooting yourself in the foot anyway), the a new supplemental source of macronutrients should be applied (i.e. - aminos, NOT carbs) for BOTH catabolic and nitrogen-retentive purposes.

    This is NOT a discussion of "weight." This is a discussion of body composition (fat:muscle). In other words, I do not care what happens on the scale ... in fact, one of my first recommendations for clients is that they throw the scale in the garbage if they are going to fixate on it. As for Intermittent Fasting; there are all sorts of issues with it and it is a cummulative effect that will plague them (not so much the YOUNGER crowd "yet" but if they keep up with the foolishness and for unnecessary rationale to do such massochistic behaviors). I have talked about this at length on radio shows ("Quantum Physiques") on another site as well as there forum and the multitude of rationale behind why this lifestyle essential f-cks you from a hormonal and metabolic standpoint (I apologize in advance to anyone who wants to try and rationalize it further, but the counter-evidence is in plethora and you are not seeing the forest through the trees). In short: glycemic variation, nitrogen retention, counter-regulatory hormone balance, controlled catabolic and anabolic states, etc... are all being sacrificed for what is the nothing more than the next biggest fad and its very unfortunate because people who are well-respected are perpetuating this nonsense.

    In any event, I maintain my position and if you chose to follow the insight provided on this subforum, so be it; if not...I will continue to recommend that which I have and that which I was asked for in this thread. Intermittent Fasting is NOT the diet of a body composition athlete; it simply isn't (I just can't devote more time to this subject at this time). For someone who can otherwise not control what is shoved in their pie-hole; maybe we'll talk about low-caloric variants (of which, I see that patient populace as well so I wouldn't dismiss it for all). Maybe at the end of the day, we agree to disagree and nothing more if neither party will retreat position stance (and that's fine; even grown men disagree all the time - it doesn't mean I respect your opinion any less, just my experience and research, not simple antecdote tells me otherwise...but our backgrounds are certainly different).


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author


  2. As for the arginine debate; yes...unfortunately...taking in that much in capsule form is fourty - 500mg pills; which is not for everyone. There is capsule limitation and tablets are a challenge (though 1000mg arginine tablets do exist knocking intake down to 20 to swallow).

    I know I used 20 grams as the offer in this thread and if you are not able to stomach that much...try less (and no, I would never suggest using parachuting as a method to champion getting copious amounts of powder down). There is SOME research to suggest combining polyamines (arginine + ornithine, et al) will yield decent results at about 6 grams each orally...but the oral data is inconsistent at that level and as I presume many of you are not embarking on intravenous administration; you may have trouble replicating those numbers unless COMPLETELY fasted.

    The only issue I have with the grape juice offer is that sometimes it can attenuate the GH response and kind of nullify what you are trying to accomplish in the first place. I would prefer non-caloric things if possible and trying it that way. Its too bad Xtreme Formulations doesn't offer up their flavoring mixture any more....



    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
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  3. Yeah, I scratched the grape juice idea. Instead I just mix 20g arginine with a little water, chug it, and then put a few drops of lemon juice on my tongue to take away the arginine bite.
    The arginine does give me subtle nausea. Fortunately this is a pre-bed regimen so laying down and eventually falling asleep keeps it bearable.

    Thanks for all the info you've shared Dr. D, and others. All this knowledge being passed around is really showing me how much I do not know. A lot of this stuff is just way over my head, lol. But most importantly it's giving me more of a desire to know!

  4. Holy hell this thread is an eye opener! I feel like I've been doing it all wrong!

    1hr out: 2g Acetyl-L-Carnitine
    30min out: Animal Pump/5g Argininie/5g Glutamine/2g Beta-Alanine/5g BCAA
    Immediately Pre: 25g whey isolate/30-40g carbs
    Intra: 25g whey isolate/30-40g carbs... and gatorade
    Immediately post: 25-50g syntha-6/post workout drink (recon or cellmass...)

    Damn damn damn... subbing for sure!

  5. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    From a GH standpoint; I like the following all-day protocol


    30-60 minutes Pre-workout:
    Niacin 2000 mg (or 2 grams) --> I like a product called Endur-acin from Endurance Products (http://www.endur.com/index.cfm?fusea...2&parentpage=0)
    Alpha-GPC 600-1200 mg --> Any product you can find is ok (http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/n...-60-vcaps.html -or- even Biotest alpha-GPC directly through their site)

    Immediately Post-workout:
    GABA - 5 grams (take your pick...the first 5 products on this page --> http://www.nutraplanet.com/search?query=GABA)

    30-60 minutes before bed:
    Arginine - 20 grams (not kidding on amount if you can afford it)
    GABA - 5 grams
    Concerning the "immediately post-workout" portion...
    Would mixing the GABA in with my isolate-leucine shake be optimal?
    Or would taking the GABA then waiting a said amount of time (10-30mins maybe?) before consuming the protein-leucine be optimal? (but then should I be concerned about my high cortisol levels in that time?)
    I guess I'm wondering whether the protein would interfere with absorption of the GABA or if it would interfere with it's desired GH effects?
    Maybe this is all petty. Just stuff I've been thinking about.
    Thanks

  6. Dr,

    Your statement below shows why Intermittent Fasting and other fasting protocols will remain popular as 90% of America have difficulty n controlling what they shove into their mouth. Most people do not understand what's going on the mind of a compulsive eater and most cant afford Dr Phil, etc. Restricting eating to 8hrs such as in IF provides and avenue to remedy that eating disorder in a number of ways I cannot get into. Simply put it works! and can be applied for the rest of 1's life

    Besides weight control fasting also has proven life extension benefits especially if it is combined with caloric restriction.

    "Intermittent Fasting is NOT the diet of a body composition athlete; it simply isn't (I just can't devote more time to this subject at this time). For someone who can otherwise not control what is shoved in their pie-hole; maybe we'll talk about low-caloric variants (of which, I see that patient populace as well so I wouldn't dismiss it for all)."
    Last edited by apconcen; 07-20-2012 at 09:37 PM. Reason: added qoute

  7. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post

    I will invite Drs. Gabriel and Jacob Wilson (much better people to discuss HMB) in to this thread if they have time...I really don't have time to go into all of this. The data is simple and health effects aside (cholesterol benefits are VERY obvious); from a body composition effect...the one thing that is unfortunate is that you place polyamines higher than leucine and HMB - that is mildly humorous ya know?

    One unfortuante thing is that HMB has always been suggested as a supplement for the "novice" lifter, which is fine, but like leucine "research," it does NOT account for body composition change/progression and/or volume of distribution differences (i.e. - more leucine for higher body mass and so on than a simple 3 grams...). Suggesting the novice and the well-trained (with a much higher volume of distribution) athlete consume the same measly 3 grams of HMB is proposterous...but that's the "evidence" suggested by negative HMB studies. Again...don't take it...I don't care, but you haven't looked at the data and judging by your responses, I am guessing you have some vested interest in some of these agents somehow (do you work for a company?).
    Dr. Houser,

    Can we get some more talk on HMB and Humanofort? I know you support HMB for cholesterol effects, but can you elaborate a bit more on its use for body composition effects?

    If the 3 gram dose won't do anything for trained athletes, at what dose will effects begin to take place?

    Also, how did your experimentation go with Humanofort?

  8. Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    Dr. Houser,

    Can we get some more talk on HMB and Humanofort? I know you support HMB for cholesterol effects, but can you elaborate a bit more on its use for body composition effects?

    If the 3 gram dose won't do anything for trained athletes, at what dose will effects begin to take place?

    Also, how did your experimentation go with Humanofort?
    Bump

  9. dinoiii,

    Just making sure I am understanding this right....

    For the athlete who wakes at 5am to lift at 6am you are saying eating something prior would NOT be best?

    Does this include ff-aminos?

    Would slamming 5g BCAAs prior to the workout be beneficial so I am not entirely fasted or is fasted the best for this early am scenario?

    Currently I take some greek yogurt, pureed mixed berries/fruit and coconut oil about 30mins prior to the workout, if my goal is aesthetics this is counter productive?

    But for an performance athlete (not a bodybuilder but say a wrestler) this small amount of food would be optimal for that correct?

  10. Bump to last question
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  11. Bump for Dr.D

  12. this thread is amazing subbed for more answers!

  13. Quote Originally Posted by EatMoar
    this thread is amazing subbed for more answers!
    x2.
    Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}
    Lift the fcking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.

  14. It gets so crazy with all the conflicting information.


    Ben Pakulski(IBBFF Pro, Kinesiologist and psycho researcher) in MI40 says to avoid carbs close to workouts because it blunts the release of GH which normally would occur at the beginning of a workout, but that you should take a fast acting carb(Karbolyn, Kwik Karb, Dymatize Flud, etc) about 30 minutes into the workout to allow GH to be released but then cut off the rise in cortisol that would normally happen. I have read several studies on ergo-log.com that show taking a fast digesting carb really blunts cortisol release during and after exercise, which leads to a much better Testosterone:Cortisol ratio(the "anabolic ratio"), which is one of the keys to being in an anabolic state...

    I can't post the link because I don't have enough posts, but if you go to ergo-log.com and search "cortisol during weight training" the first result that comes up is the one with one of the studies showing a graph of cortisol levels for people who took sugars during training and those who didn't...title of study is "Muscle fibres grow faster with 40 g sugars during strength training"

  15. Quote Originally Posted by matter2003 View Post
    It gets so crazy with all the conflicting information. Ben Pakulski(IBBFF Pro, Kinesiologist and psycho researcher) in MI40 says to avoid carbs close to workouts because it blunts the release of GH which normally would occur at the beginning of a workout, but that you should take a fast acting carb(Karbolyn, Kwik Karb, Dymatize Flud, etc) about 30 minutes into the workout to allow GH to be released but then cut off the rise in cortisol that would normally happen. I have read several studies on ergo-log.com that show taking a fast digesting carb really blunts cortisol release during and after exercise, which leads to a much better Testosterone:Cortisol ratio(the "anabolic ratio"), which is one of the keys to being in an anabolic state...I can't post the link because I don't have enough posts, but if you go to ergo-log.com and search "cortisol during weight training" the first result that comes up is the one with one of the studies showing a graph of cortisol levels for people who took sugars during training and those who didn't...title of study is "Muscle fibres grow faster with 40 g sugars during strength training"
    The normal cortisol response to weight training is actually correlated with higher LBM. Same thing with ROS -> better recovery. Bottom line: stop trying to micromanage everything and lift!

  16. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    The normal cortisol response to weight training is actually correlated with higher LBM. Same thing with ROS -> better recovery. Bottom line: stop trying to micromanage everything and lift!
    Got any pertinent studies showing this? All of the studies I have read and seen and most of the programs I have read state the opposite...

  17. Quote Originally Posted by matter2003 View Post
    Got any pertinent studies showing this? All of the studies I have read and seen and most of the programs I have read state the opposite...
    Plenty. Go to the suppversity blog. It's far superior to ergolog

  18. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Plenty. Go to the suppversity blog. It's far superior to ergolog
    Thanks for the heads up! Seems like they have a lot of good stuff there...
  

  
 

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