3,3 Diiodo L Thryonine and 3,5 Diiodo L Thyronine...works?

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    3,3 Diiodo L Thryonine and 3,5 Diiodo L Thyronine...works?


    Hi Dana


    What do you think about 3,3 Diiodo L Thryonine and 3,5 Diiodo L Thyronine really works?


    Thanks
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    to get legitamite sources are so hard to do for these ingredients, plus EXPENSIVE. i dont know how they do this. i always buy the powders of these products bc id rather do that (much cheaper, actually just got a kilo of ALA instead of caps). Found a kilo to be so expensive.
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    one thing i noticed when i used this stuff is a tremendous lethargy is like hypoglycemic symptoms
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    I've been using Dexaprine which contains both products. This stuff is a great energy enhancer. I am a bit concerned about the long term effects of using thyroid hormones.
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    bump!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    one thing i noticed when i used this stuff is a tremendous lethargy is like hypoglycemic symptoms
    I get the same thing when I use any thyroid modulator. ALCAR and coffee help out a lot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I get the same thing when I use any thyroid modulator. ALCAR and coffee help out a lot.
    very true and this is i use a stim too. and another thing i noticed after few days of use the stuff every meal i eat no matter what got insane hungry again in less an hour.
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    Any truth to the statement that 3,5 is more suppressive than 3,3?

    I have read before that 3,5 diiodo-l-thryonine will suppress your natural TSH function but 3,3 diiodo-l-thryonine wont do this.

    Any truth?
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    Bump for the doc..
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    What do you think about 3,3’ Diiodo L Thryonine and 3,5 Diiodo L Thyronine really works?
    We need to define "works" the way you are using it.


    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    to get legitamite sources are so hard to do for these ingredients, plus EXPENSIVE. i dont know how they do this. i always buy the powders of these products bc id rather do that (much cheaper, actually just got a kilo of ALA instead of caps). Found a kilo to be so expensive.
    Yes, as I commented on in a similar thread and talking to Matt Boldt (owner of SAN); I would be very choosy in my sampling of products and the SAN one is probably the best if you are going to try one at all. Even with the 3,5 - they are nothing like they used to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    one thing i noticed when i used this stuff is a tremendous lethargy is like hypoglycemic symptoms
    If you are not hypothyroid; you can certainly rev up all metabolic processing to a level that is effectively ... "too much." It will actually chew away muscle tissue in this scenario.



    Quote Originally Posted by RawStrength View Post
    Any truth to the statement that 3,5 is more suppressive than 3,3?

    I have read before that 3,5 diiodo-l-thryonine will suppress your natural TSH function but 3,3 diiodo-l-thryonine wont do this.

    Any truth?
    This is pure pontification from studies; however, most combine the two - so you'd have potential for suppression in either sense. I have tried 3,3 solo and don't feel as though I get any effect from it; nor have my thyroid numbers moved at all unfortunately.


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    Thanks doc!

    So something like Pure T2 from taurus (which is just 3,5 diiodo) or TT-33 from Iforce (which is a combo of 3,3 and 3,5) should be fine to take?

    I was only concerned since within the advertisement for alpha T2 (which is just 3,3) they sad said that 3,5 was suppressive and more dangerous and 3,3 being the better option.

    Glad to hear this isnt true. Thanks for clearing it all up doc!
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    i duno i tried sourcing this powder myself as id experiment. not sure of the MW but if it was under 300 it would go in a topical, if it was over id consume enough for me to feel it.

    Price though for a minimum of a kilo is so insanely high, i wonder how some companies do it. especially the newer ones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    i duno i tried sourcing this powder myself as id experiment. not sure of the MW but if it was under 300 it would go in a topical, if it was over id consume enough for me to feel it.

    Price though for a minimum of a kilo is so insanely high, i wonder how some companies do it. especially the newer ones.
    I think it's pretty obvious how they do it lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam View Post
    I think it's pretty obvious how they do it lol.
    Care to elaborate?

    Curious as to what you are implying here..
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    Quote Originally Posted by RawStrength View Post
    Care to elaborate?

    Curious as to what you are implying here..
    Yes...interested
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPjohn123 View Post
    Yes...interested
    Seems like he is suggesting that Taurus pure T2 and PES alpha T2 and shift products do not contain real diiodo or is spiked with something else or in underdosed or... I dunno what else he could be suggesting. He did used to work with Eric (former owner of LG and current owner of Taurus) so maybe he knows something we dont (inside scoop) ???
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    Quote Originally Posted by RawStrength View Post
    Seems like he is suggesting that Taurus pure T2 and PES alpha T2 and shift products do not contain real diiodo or is spiked with something else or in underdosed or... I dunno what else he could be suggesting. He did used to work with Eric (former owner of LG and current owner of Taurus) so maybe he knows something we dont (inside scoop) ???
    Or maybe he doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    i duno i tried sourcing this powder myself as id experiment. not sure of the MW but if it was under 300 it would go in a topical, if it was over id consume enough for me to feel it.

    Price though for a minimum of a kilo is so insanely high, i wonder how some companies do it. especially the newer ones.
    You do realize how much a kilo of these ingredients is right? They are dosed in micrograms...1 kilo goes a loooong way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by classic34 View Post
    You do realize how much a kilo of these ingredients is right? They are dosed in micrograms...1 kilo goes a loooong way.
    oh absolutely

    but
    when there are 10g per bottle,

    assuming 100 bottle is equal to 1 kilo.............

    they pay assuming its 3500 per kilo (i think it was around there give or take 200), they are more then likely paying upward of 15k for 500bottle, maybe more which doesnt include bottling labeling and testing.

    quite a price to be honest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    oh absolutely

    but
    when there are 10g per bottle,

    assuming 100 bottle is equal to 1 kilo.............

    they pay assuming its 3500 per kilo (i think it was around there give or take 200), they are more then likely paying upward of 15k for 500bottle, maybe more which doesnt include bottling labeling and testing.

    quite a price to be honest.
    However, like anything it drops significantly when buying in bulk. Check the price on 25 kilo's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RawStrength View Post
    Thanks doc!

    So something like Pure T2 from taurus (which is just 3,5 diiodo) or TT-33 from Iforce (which is a combo of 3,3 and 3,5) should be fine to take?

    I was only concerned since within the advertisement for alpha T2 (which is just 3,3) they sad said that 3,5 was suppressive and more dangerous and 3,3 being the better option.

    Glad to hear this isnt true. Thanks for clearing it all up doc!
    The combo products are "interesting" as the entire rationale for using them in this fashion is to avoid potential suppression and yet still they put the 3,5 variant in coupled with the 3,3'.

    Let's back up for a second and understand how this whole 3,5-T2 = suppresion / 3,3'-T2 = non-suppression thing shapes up...

    T3 and 3,5-T2 are very similar in their effect on TSH with suppression at about 75% in RODENTS (mice or rats; I don't recall exactly nor do I have the citation). Similar studies with the 3,3'-T2 variant have comparably shown no suppression, however, one must consider the 3,5 is STRICTLY thyromimetic, which can NOT be said about the 3,3'.

    For those looking at quick cycles (your guess at a definition for this term is as good as mine); I am uncertain the level of suppression that would be seen with even the 3,5-T2 because there is an exponential impact when considering iodination cascades and susbequent feed into the HPTA. What I can say is that 3,5-T2 has actually increased basal metabolic rate (as measured gas analysis through either direct or indirect calorimetry as well as through calculation of the RQ for an individual). 3,5-T2 also has a MUCH better effect on GH secretion, increasing it about 5-fold.

    How to summarize my aforementioned jibberish...

    (1) I am not chastizing those that use both, BUT the reason to use both is NOT to avoid suppression.
    (2) Suppression by way of 3,5-T2 can be avoided by short cycles, though we've never understood well what truly constitues "short."
    (3) There is an exponential effect seen with T2/T3 and TSH and this allows us "rough predictability" of how long it would take to see effect on the HPTA, but nothing more (and I don't care if the best advertised supplement manufacturer suggests the contrary).
    (4) Additional hormone alteration - like that of a 5-fold increase in GH - is seen with the 3,5-T2 and NOT the 3,3'-T2.
    (5) I cannot speak for Taurus Nutrition's or IForce's products as no one outside of SAN has proven good sourcing in my estimation (not that I have asked said groups...but SAN is the only one I could verify). Given this is a VERY HARD item to source; I am gathering it is exceedingly easy to get screwed in this market if trying these products and a "buyer beware" effort should be used.



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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    oh absolutely

    but
    when there are 10g per bottle,

    assuming 100 bottle is equal to 1 kilo.............

    they pay assuming its 3500 per kilo (i think it was around there give or take 200), they are more then likely paying upward of 15k for 500bottle, maybe more which doesnt include bottling labeling and testing.

    quite a price to be honest.
    10g per bottle for a typical 100 cap bottle would be 100mg per cap...100mcg per cap works out much cheaper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    The combo products are "interesting" as the entire rationale for using them in this fashion is to avoid potential suppression and yet still they put the 3,5 variant in coupled with the 3,3'.

    Let's back up for a second and understand how this whole 3,5-T2 = suppresion / 3,3'-T2 = non-suppression thing shapes up...

    T3 and 3,5-T2 are very similar in their effect on TSH with suppression at about 75% in RODENTS (mice or rats; I don't recall exactly nor do I have the citation). Similar studies with the 3,3'-T2 variant have comparably shown no suppression, however, one must consider the 3,5 is STRICTLY thyromimetic, which can NOT be said about the 3,3'.

    For those looking at quick cycles (your guess at a definition for this term is as good as mine); I am uncertain the level of suppression that would be seen with even the 3,5-T2 because there is an exponential impact when considering iodination cascades and susbequent feed into the HPTA. What I can say is that 3,5-T2 has actually increased basal metabolic rate (as measured gas analysis through either direct or indirect calorimetry as well as through calculation of the RQ for an individual). 3,5-T2 also has a MUCH better effect on GH secretion, increasing it about 5-fold.

    How to summarize my aforementioned jibberish...

    (1) I am not chastizing those that use both, BUT the reason to use both is NOT to avoid suppression.
    (2) Suppression by way of 3,5-T2 can be avoided by short cycles, though we've never understood well what truly constitues "short."
    (3) There is an exponential effect seen with T2/T3 and TSH and this allows us "rough predictability" of how long it would take to see effect on the HPTA, but nothing more (and I don't care if the best advertised supplement manufacturer suggests the contrary).
    (4) Additional hormone alteration - like that of a 5-fold increase in GH - is seen with the 3,5-T2 and NOT the 3,3'-T2.
    (5) I cannot speak for Taurus Nutrition's or IForce's products as no one outside of SAN has proven good sourcing in my estimation (not that I have asked said groups...but SAN is the only one I could verify). Given this is a VERY HARD item to source; I am gathering it is exceedingly easy to get screwed in this market if trying these products and a "buyer beware" effort should be used.



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    Thanks for the response doc!

    Couple questions..

    1- what kind of effect will TSH suppression have on me? Would it effect testosterone production? (I imagine so since you mentioned HPTA)

    2. If TSH does get suppressed, is there anyway to bring it back? Do you know of anything that will help restore TSH? I guess a PCT sort to speak? I have heard DAA is helpful post cycle when your FH is suppressed.. Would DAA help restore FSH too?

    3. If my TSH gets suppressed due to the 3,5 usage.. How would I know? Are there any signs or symptoms I should look for which would indicate TSH suppression? I imagine blood work would be the definitive way to know but was wondering if there were any signs I could look for.

    And lastly.. What if I am on a anabolic cycle while taking the 3,5.. Would a suppressed TSH effect the anabolics results? I wouldnt think so since anabolics dont work with the HPTA since it is outside hormones... Am I wrong?

    Thanks a million doc!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by RawStrength View Post
    1- what kind of effect will TSH suppression have on me? Would it effect testosterone production? (I imagine so since you mentioned HPTA)
    I am NOT a fan of the term HPTA with "T" meaning "Testicular" due to the confusion that can arise when considering the other HPTA with "T" equalling "Thyroidal" axis. To discern the two - when you hear me reference the testes and their respective axis, it will be very clearly labeled HPGA with "G" equalling "Gonadal" axis.

    TSH suppressive actions means that as any of the following: T2/T3/T4 go up, TSH (signal to produce MORE of said thyroidal products) goes DOWN as the signal is being effectively "turned off" - the concern is that in the long-run, you may become dependent on thyroidal products or wreak the side effects - slowed endogenous metabolism, et al...



    2. If TSH does get suppressed, is there anyway to bring it back? Do you know of anything that will help restore TSH? I guess a PCT sort to speak? I have heard DAA is helpful post cycle when your FH is suppressed.. Would DAA help restore FSH too?
    In a word, "time." If anything is going to help "bring TSH back" like many other hormonal pituitary signals...it's time. There is an exponential shift in TSH...but usually this takes on average about 3-6 weeks to "re-set." 7-keto DHEA, tyrosine, and iodine may be "helpful" however, getting the dose incorrect could also play detriment and most take said agents in a haphazard manner.

    DAA has no identified role in the thyroidal axis.



    3. If my TSH gets suppressed due to the 3,5 usage.. How would I know? Are there any signs or symptoms I should look for which would indicate TSH suppression? I imagine blood work would be the definitive way to know but was wondering if there were any signs I could look for.
    While it may sound counter-intuitive, a low TSH means hypERthyroid (increased thyroid) that you have supplied exogenously. In effect...you could look for signs of hypERthyroidism (rapid heart beat/flutter, increased sweating, and so on...) however, it is very difficult to discern this with signs of acute thyroid product ingestion if dosing too high; it's also very difficult if you (as many are) are ingesting many stimulants as the "symptoms" are VERY similar.



    And lastly.. What if I am on a anabolic cycle while taking the 3,5.. Would a suppressed TSH effect the anabolics results? I wouldnt think so since anabolics dont work with the HPTA since it is outside hormones... Am I wrong?

    Thanks a million doc!!!!
    Again, let's discern the following:

    1) HPTA (thyroid): affected by thyroid products

    2) HPGA (gonadal/testis): affected by anabolic steroids/prohormones, et al...


    -- hypERthyroid states can be VERY CATABOLIC (breaking down) which is why people take them when attempting to lose fat (fat is one of only 4 tissue types you have in your ENTIRE body) and CATABOLIC periods are necessary if you are ever to rid your body of any of said tissue types (something that even most "experts" forget).

    THYROID stuff in general is VERY TRICKY and could play an unfortunate role if employing them haphazardly...if doing so without the assistance of a well-identified clinician, use EXTREME caution. I could take the role of saying "don't use them at all," but I realize too that those words will fall on deaf ears in most instances (that is not directed toward you; it's just a general understanding being around the physique conscious - or anyone for that matter over the better part of the last 20 years).


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    People often suggest products like Lean Xtreme (DS) or a 7-Keto product as PCT for using these type of products. Do you agree w/ that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Monk View Post
    People often suggest products like Lean Xtreme (DS) or a 7-Keto product as PCT for using these type of products. Do you agree w/ that?
    like PES Erase?

    i'm wondering the same thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Monk View Post
    People often suggest products like Lean Xtreme (DS) or a 7-Keto product as PCT for using these type of products. Do you agree w/ that?
    He used to recommend this, yes. I'm interested in whether he still does as he seems a little more pessimistic in this posting about the diiodos than he has in older postings.

    Dr. Houser, I cut (and bulk, sometimes) using Lyle McDonald's Ultimate Diet 2.0. This involves week long "cycles" with 4 keto days, 2 refeed days, and one day that can go either way based on user preference. If using a thyroidal (SAN T2 Xtreme, contains both 3,3' and 3,5) in this kind of 4 on - 3 off manner, are chances of suppression lowered or am I just begging for fat gain during the refeed period due to some temporary suppression? Can't decide which way to think of it and I suppose you may not be able to know either.

    Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Monk View Post
    People often suggest products like Lean Xtreme (DS) or a 7-Keto product as PCT for using these type of products. Do you agree w/ that?
    The problem with Lean Xtreme is that it is not monotherapy (in other words, the multi-ingredient and proprietary blend offering makes it very difficult to discern what kind of dosing is needed, etc...).

    Furthering the problem is that 7-OH variants have less ORAL bioavailability.

    7-Keto products are great (are cheaper and have better oral bioavailability)...even for long periods (designated as longer than 8-12 weeks).


    Quote Originally Posted by alexoc949 View Post
    like PES Erase?
    Are you asking if you should use ERASE followed by a 7-keto "PCT"?


    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    He used to recommend this, yes. I'm interested in whether he still does as he seems a little more pessimistic in this posting about the diiodos than he has in older postings.
    I am not pessimistic per se.

    Think of the logic used on combo products...

    Issue #1:
    We want to avoid suppression so we'll use the new 3,3' + 3,5 and that is somehow supposed to avoid suppression (a 3,3' may but not a combo)

    Issue #2:
    IF you are talking about something STRICTLY thyromimetic, you would absolutely HAVE TO get some level of TSH suppression. That's fortunately or unfortunately (dependent upon how you look at it); the way it works. Incidentally, you do have Cytomel (T3) users with significant suppression of their TSH, but I don't hear many of them complaining.


    Dr. Houser
    , I cut (and bulk, sometimes) using Lyle McDonald's Ultimate Diet 2.0. This involves week long "cycles" with 4 keto days, 2 refeed days, and one day that can go either way based on user preference. If using a thyroidal (SAN T2 Xtreme, contains both 3,3' and 3,5) in this kind of 4 on - 3 off manner, are chances of suppression lowered or am I just begging for fat gain during the refeed period due to some temporary suppression? Can't decide which way to think of it and I suppose you may not be able to know either.

    Thanks!
    If you are going to use the thyroidal stimulant at all, I have found the response greater when used straight through (as opposd to say, a stim using in the 5-on, 2-off method due to autoregulation). Now, using periods of carb-up will stave off suppression of thyroidal axis dysregulation induced by a low-carb and/or low-calorie diet at baseline. The use of thyoridal stimulants like T2s or T3 would possibly afford you the thyroidal issue all-in-all when it comes to low-carb dieting, however.

    The true understanding of this is still a work in process, but it is becoming more and more clear with more time of use.


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    Thank you for the thoughtful reply!
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