Will using supplemental DHEA shut down your own natural production?

  1. Senior Member
    BBB's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  192 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,871
    Rep Power
    321368
    Level
    39
    Lv. Percent
    8.62%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Will using supplemental DHEA shut down your own natural production?


    As an older BB I know my DHEA levels and test levels are lower than I would like them to be. Supplemental DHEA along with supplemental I3C really helps with my energy levels. I've read that taking supplemental DHEA does not affect your natural production, but I'm skeptical.

  2. Elite Member
    rochabp's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5,194
    Rep Power
    216448
    Level
    51
    Lv. Percent
    2.79%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    well if your older your test is lower already so maybe not.
    The difference between who you are and who you want to be is what you do.
  3. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4095
    Level
    20
    Lv. Percent
    84.93%

    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    As an older BB I know my DHEA levels and test levels are lower than I would like them to be. Supplemental DHEA along with supplemental I3C really helps with my energy levels. I've read that taking supplemental DHEA does not affect your natural production, but I'm skeptical.
    I see patients in office with DHEA serum levels low as they progress in their years which brings up a very valid discussion on whether or not to entertain DHEA replacement - oral or otherwise - when confronted with documented low levels (we will leave out whether or not you actually measured them...this can be done at your cost if sincerely concerned through privatemdlabs.com). I think the effects are interesting and if we are trying to generalize (which is not always easy to do), we can probably consider the following data (collected from literature and my own clinical data combined).


    < 65 years:

    LH + FSH

    Physically Active – no overt suppression upwards of 150 mg; minimally suppression thereafter

    Sedentary – minimal suppression after surpassing 50 mg


    Testosterone


    Physically Active
    – no change


    Sedentary – no change


    Estrogen


    Physically Active
    – minimal change, but usually requiring over 100 mg (haven’t seen changes in supplemental replacement doses of 25 or 50 mg; if using 50 mg bid tallying 100 mg, this may stave off estrogen changes as well)


    Sedentary – as above for physically active


    > 65 years:


    LH + FSH


    No overt suppression in sedentary individuals matching age-matched physically-active controls


    Testosterone


    Modest INCREASE in both groups


    Estrogen


    Modest INCREASE in both groups (within acceptable range)


    Why do the physically active get better results in the young groups? I personally think it is due to the cortisol-lowering effect of DHEA, which is almost unanimous across the board. DHEA supplementation WILL lower cortisol! At the same time, how do we respect the testosterone/estrogen changes as cited above? Observe doses at minimum or avoid supplementation altogether due to our limited knowledge (I mean, if you supplement high enough, it should come as no surprise that the higher you go…the more likely you are to suppress natural levels. Hell, the same can be said for supplemental testosterone; if you use enough, it’s suppressive – we all know that…BUT at the same time, low-dose hormonal replacement does not always impact the HPGA in the same way.).

    It has been suggested that there is currently no scientific reason to ever prescribe DHEA, but I would suggest some contrary evidence from literature and practice….


    Caveats


    1.
    DHEA has NO USE in supplemental regimen of post-cycler with concurrent use of SERM; in fact, DHEA may negate any benefits seen with a SERM (only study that exists is with Nolva, BUT it was interesting enough to dissuade my use with any patients on SERMs); outside of this, there are likely some cases where supplemental DHEA is of positive or equivocal benefit


    2.
    DHEA likely of NO USE in supplemental regimens of men less than 35 years of age; of QUESTIONABLE USE at low dose in supplemental regimens of men between age 35-65 years; and of MODEST BENEFIT to those over the age of 65


    3.
    Even groups younger than 35 years of age still may see acute cognition and memory benefits through stimulation of the Anterior Cingulate Cortex (ACC) as suggested by literature though I have NOT cared to test this theory in practice…for sheer pontification, it would probably be seen best with high-dose (why I wouldn’t suggest it) at say a week or less in more of a pulsatile fashion if you try and translate the literature, BUT I would stay away from it myself.


    4.
    Mixed review on cardiovascular data; Overly positive data on insulin resistance (probably mostly an anti-cortisol effect coupled with anti-oxidative effect through lowering of pentosidine)


    5.
    Longevity – boy, if patients are followed long enough (> 15 years); there is a mortality benefit. In other words, if followed less than that timeframe, studies have come out negative…BUT the lowest levels of DHEA-S in men were associated with a shorter life span (which is why I am even open to guys between the ages of 35-65 years taking it with an equivocal offering on hormonal changes you may not enjoy – androgenic/estrogenic), BUT I would hope if this was being employed … people would consider verifying this with serum levels as opposed to blindly supplementing.


    Keep in mind, the above is for DHEA alone (not necessarily all metabolites or byproducts - some of which we know to be "safe" in this regard...7-keto --> 7-OH --> bAET)


    You may or may not see what I have done here. I have tried to offer up the most objective set of conditions to time periods where people can make the best informed decision on taking DHEA or not as long as it remains an OTC supplemental option. I will NOT suggest anyone take it without full understanding of your case and/or an in-person physical exam and evaluation; so this is the best I can provide you in this setting.

    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
    •   
       

  4. Senior Member
    BBB's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  192 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,871
    Rep Power
    321368
    Level
    39
    Lv. Percent
    8.62%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Thanks Doc, you're the best. I have use high doses of Diesel Test Hardcore (up to 8 tabs/day) which contains both DHEA (25 mg/tab) and Pregnenalone (25 mg/tab) but it also contains DIM (dosage unknown) and completed blood tests at the end of the run. Everything was within normal ranges with the exception of cholesterol, which is always high. My current age is 62.
  5. Elite Member
    rochabp's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5,194
    Rep Power
    216448
    Level
    51
    Lv. Percent
    2.79%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    i guess thats a rap
    The difference between who you are and who you want to be is what you do.
  6. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4095
    Level
    20
    Lv. Percent
    84.93%

    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    Thanks Doc, you're the best. I have use high doses of Diesel Test Hardcore (up to 8 tabs/day) which contains both DHEA (25 mg/tab) and Pregnenalone (25 mg/tab) but it also contains DIM (dosage unknown) and completed blood tests at the end of the run. Everything was within normal ranges with the exception of cholesterol, which is always high. My current age is 62.
    I am actually not the biggest fan of supplemental preg; probably because there is simply a dearth of literature talking about short and long-term effects. When you couple that with something so far upstream (can convert to many things, inclusive of cortisol - though many think of it as an anti-cortisol agent; it really is a cortisol promoter which really accounts for a lot of the "feel good" effect, making dealing with stress much more effective, but other actions are in effect as well...see my pontification later) of various hormonal cascades, you are potentially asking for trouble.

    Now, I will credit it's safety with the following data...when given orally to humans at doses as high as 500 mg/day for as long as 30 weeks, preg was without evidence of adverse effects. Mice given 5 grams (1/6 ounce) per kilogram (2.2 pounds) of body weight suffered no ill effects. This would be equivalent to a 154 pound (70 kilogram) human ingesting 350 grams (approximately 3/4 pound) per day! In a long-term study, mice that were given one gram pregnenolone per kilogram of body weight three times weekly for 50 doses suffered no toxic reactions -- including no changes in the size and condition of offspring produced after the 50 doses.
    In one human study, eight people received 50 to 150 milligrams per day by intramuscular injection for 75 days, with no reported side effects. Dr. Eugene Roberts gave 20 Alzheimer’s patients 525 mg/day for three months with no toxicity. During rheumatoid arthritis experiments with pregnenolone, Dr. H. Freeman and colleagues gave 500 mg pregnenolone/day for up to 30 weeks, with no toxicity. And Drs. Pincus and Hoagland, two of the pioneer researchers on pregnenolone use by humans in the 1940s, found no toxic reactions with pregnenolone used by hundreds of men and women at dosages of 100 mg/day for four months.

    One thing I would be interested in is a DAA + Preg offering. See, as I mentioned above...cortisol promotion is PART of the "feel good" effect, but there are neuroendocrine rationale that offer more explaination. Pregnenolone is known to modulate at least two key nerve receptor systems in the brain: NMDA receptors and GABA receptors. NMDA receptors, which weaken with age, are involved in learning, memory, and alertness. Pregnenolone enhances NMDA receptor function (maybe some see where I am going with this). GABA receptors promote relaxation, mental slowing, sedation and sleep. Benzodiazepine drugs (Valium, Librium, Xanax, etc.) activate GABA receptors, while pregnenolone inhibits GABA receptors. Thus, too little NMDA activity combined with excessive GABA activity would tend to promote mental sluggishness and depression. Since pregnenolone raises NMDA activity and lowers excessive GABA activity, pregnenolone seems to be a natural antidepressant. Indeed a recent study of 27 depressed patients found that their cerebrospinal fluid (which circulates through the brain and spinal cord) was significantly lower in pregnenolone than in 10 non-depressed volunteers. Cerebrospinal fluid levels are generally believed to accurately reflect levels of various biochemicals in the brain.

    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  7. New Member
    ka0tik's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  170 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    146
    Rep Power
    366
    Level
    10
    Lv. Percent
    65.04%

    Dont mean to hijack the thread. I am 22, I took a 7-keto formula by life extension (ingredients below), on top of my usual stack, as a light fat burner about a year ago. 5 days on with 2 doses per day and then at least 2 days off. The 30 day supply lasted me around 5 months, which shows you how often I took it. But I did notice a fatloss benefit that seemed almost immediate. However, I was unwilling to lengthen the number of days on it because I felt like I was going to mess up my hormone levels. For me, it would be a very nice weightloss product, especially if taken for 30 days. It was certainly much more comfortable on a day to day basis than a stimulant or stimulant based product. However due to the lack of information on the subject (that I could find), especially for my age group, I have not decided to purchase it again. In the long run does something like dhea have the potential to mess up your hormones more than an anti-estrogen like formestane? despite the anabolic difference

    Serving size: 1 pill
    Vitamin C(as Ascorbyl Palmitate) 10mg 17%
    Vitamin E(as D-Alpha Tocopheryl Succinate) 25IU 83%
    7-Keto® DHEA(3-Acetyl-7-Oxo-Dehydroepiandrosterone) 100mg **
    Ascorbyl Palmitate 25mg **
    Turmeric Root Extract(Curcuma Longa)[Standardized To 95% Total Curcuminoids (23.7 Mg)] 25mg **
    Green Tea Extract, Decaffeinated(Camellia Sinensis)(Leaf)[Std. To Minimum 90% Polyphenols (22.5)] 25mg **
    Whole Grape Extract(Vitis Vinifera) And Polygonum Cuspidatum)(Root) Extract [Std. To 35% Resveratrol (1 Mg)]
  8. New Member
    Bryanz47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    86
    Rep Power
    99
    Level
    8
    Lv. Percent
    23.86%

    In for more input. Very interested read.
  9. Elite Member
    andrew732's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,570
    Rep Power
    576424
    Level
    55
    Lv. Percent
    80.04%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    I am actually not the biggest fan of supplemental preg; probably because there is simply a dearth of literature talking about short and long-term effects. When you couple that with something so far upstream (can convert to many things, inclusive of cortisol - though many think of it as an anti-cortisol agent; it really is a cortisol promoter which really accounts for a lot of the "feel good" effect, making dealing with stress much more effective, but other actions are in effect as well...see my pontification later) of various hormonal cascades, you are potentially asking for trouble.

    Now, I will credit it's safety with the following data...when given orally to humans at doses as high as 500 mg/day for as long as 30 weeks, preg was without evidence of adverse effects. Mice given 5 grams (1/6 ounce) per kilogram (2.2 pounds) of body weight suffered no ill effects. This would be equivalent to a 154 pound (70 kilogram) human ingesting 350 grams (approximately 3/4 pound) per day! In a long-term study, mice that were given one gram pregnenolone per kilogram of body weight three times weekly for 50 doses suffered no toxic reactions -- including no changes in the size and condition of offspring produced after the 50 doses.
    In one human study, eight people received 50 to 150 milligrams per day by intramuscular injection for 75 days, with no reported side effects. Dr. Eugene Roberts gave 20 Alzheimer’s patients 525 mg/day for three months with no toxicity. During rheumatoid arthritis experiments with pregnenolone, Dr. H. Freeman and colleagues gave 500 mg pregnenolone/day for up to 30 weeks, with no toxicity. And Drs. Pincus and Hoagland, two of the pioneer researchers on pregnenolone use by humans in the 1940s, found no toxic reactions with pregnenolone used by hundreds of men and women at dosages of 100 mg/day for four months.

    One thing I would be interested in is a DAA + Preg offering. See, as I mentioned above...cortisol promotion is PART of the "feel good" effect, but there are neuroendocrine rationale that offer more explaination. Pregnenolone is known to modulate at least two key nerve receptor systems in the brain: NMDA receptors and GABA receptors. NMDA receptors, which weaken with age, are involved in learning, memory, and alertness. Pregnenolone enhances NMDA receptor function (maybe some see where I am going with this). GABA receptors promote relaxation, mental slowing, sedation and sleep. Benzodiazepine drugs (Valium, Librium, Xanax, etc.) activate GABA receptors, while pregnenolone inhibits GABA receptors. Thus, too little NMDA activity combined with excessive GABA activity would tend to promote mental sluggishness and depression. Since pregnenolone raises NMDA activity and lowers excessive GABA activity, pregnenolone seems to be a natural antidepressant. Indeed a recent study of 27 depressed patients found that their cerebrospinal fluid (which circulates through the brain and spinal cord) was significantly lower in pregnenolone than in 10 non-depressed volunteers. Cerebrospinal fluid levels are generally believed to accurately reflect levels of various biochemicals in the brain.

    D_

    "Pregnenolone enhances NMDA receptor function (maybe some see where I am going with this). "
    More reason to eat egg yolks.
    doing my own thang!
  10. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4095
    Level
    20
    Lv. Percent
    84.93%

    Quote Originally Posted by ka0tik View Post
    Dont mean to hijack the thread. I am 22, I took a 7-keto formula by life extension (ingredients below), on top of my usual stack, as a light fat burner about a year ago. 5 days on with 2 doses per day and then at least 2 days off. The 30 day supply lasted me around 5 months, which shows you how often I took it. But I did notice a fatloss benefit that seemed almost immediate. However, I was unwilling to lengthen the number of days on it because I felt like I was going to mess up my hormone levels. For me, it would be a very nice weightloss product, especially if taken for 30 days. It was certainly much more comfortable on a day to day basis than a stimulant or stimulant based product. However due to the lack of information on the subject (that I could find), especially for my age group, I have not decided to purchase it again. In the long run does something like dhea have the potential to mess up your hormones more than an anti-estrogen like formestane? despite the anabolic difference

    Serving size: 1 pill
    Vitamin C(as Ascorbyl Palmitate) 10mg 17%
    Vitamin E(as D-Alpha Tocopheryl Succinate) 25IU 83%
    7-Keto® DHEA(3-Acetyl-7-Oxo-Dehydroepiandrosterone) 100mg **
    Ascorbyl Palmitate 25mg **
    Turmeric Root Extract(Curcuma Longa)[Standardized To 95% Total Curcuminoids (23.7 Mg)] 25mg **
    Green Tea Extract, Decaffeinated(Camellia Sinensis)(Leaf)[Std. To Minimum 90% Polyphenols (22.5)] 25mg **
    Whole Grape Extract(Vitis Vinifera) And Polygonum Cuspidatum)(Root) Extract [Std. To 35% Resveratrol (1 Mg)]
    I do believe 7-keto and 7-oxo DHEA have a place, HOWEVER, I am not convinced you don't have a point in being concerned about the potential for suppression when using it (contrary to folklore that there is no feedback offering)...take the following study for example:

    Physiol Res. 2001;50(1):9-18.
    Effects of transdermal application of 7-oxo-DHEA on the levels of steroid hormones, gonadotropins and lipids in healthy men.

    Sulcová J, Hill M, Masek Z, Ceska R, Novácek A, Hampl R, Stárka L.
    Source

    Institute of Endocrinology, Prague, Czech Republic. jsulcova@endo.cz

    Abstract

    The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of 7-oxo-DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone) on the serum levels of steroid sexual hormones, gonadotropins, lipids and lipoproteins in men. 7-oxo-DHEA was applied onto the skin as a gel to 10 volunteers aged 27 to 72 years for 5 consecutive days. The single dose contained 25 mg 7-oxo-DHEA. Serum concentrations of testosterone, estradiol, cortisol, androstenedione, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), total cholesterol, HDL- and LDL-cholesterol, triglycerides, apolipoprotein A-I and B and lipoprotein(a) were measured before the beginning and shortly after the end of the steroid application. After the treatment, we noted the following significant changes: a decline of testosterone and estradiol levels, increase of LH, HDL-cholesterol and apolipoprotein A-I levels. The decrease of total cholesterol levels was of the borderline significance. A slight but significant increase was found in apolipoprotein B and lipoprotein(a). The most expressive was the fall of the atherogenic index. We suggest that the gel containing 7-oxo-DHEA might be a suitable drug for improving the composition of the steroid and lipid parameters in elderly men.

    PMID:11300231[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Maybe it's just me; but when considering the 7-keto --> 7-oxo cascade, this is eye-opening - like any other exogenous androgen. And the dose is quite small (25mg), the duration was quite short...however, when you get ANY exogenous androgen (any steroidal structure) placed into the equation; I am uncertain what people would otherwise anticipate...but the marketing has done well in convincing people that this won't touch your HPGA. I think it's likely LESS suppressive; but to say non-suppressive, that's likely inaccurate.

    The immediate fat loss benefit is likely more of a thyroidal nature when dealind with upstream 7-keto products as opposed to androgen changes. Your taking it in such an inconsistent fashion probably didn't offer much, if any, suppression.

    I have taken upwards of 600 mg of 7-keto with VERY minimal changes in test levels; but that again is not to say they are unheard of (as you've seen in the controlled setting above).


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  11. New Member
    coolbreeze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Age
    49
    Posts
    104
    Rep Power
    169
    Level
    9
    Lv. Percent
    23.4%

    Dana do you think supplemental pregnenolone would be as good as sarcosine? How many mg's are we talking for a marked effect on NMDA receptors?
  12. New Member
    ka0tik's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  170 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    146
    Rep Power
    366
    Level
    10
    Lv. Percent
    65.04%

    Always teaching us so much. Thanks D.
    Just wondering, what was the time frame of your example?

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    I have taken upwards of 600 mg of 7-keto with VERY minimal changes in test levels; but that again is not to say they are unheard of (as you've seen in the controlled setting above).
  13. Senior Member
    OrganicShadow's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  162 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,973
    Rep Power
    251877
    Level
    42
    Lv. Percent
    37.35%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Very informative thread here as always with D_

    Thanks for the enlightening. Learned something new today.
    By believing passionately in something that still does not exist, we create it. The nonexistent is whatever we have not sufficiently desired.
    Franz Kafka
  14. Senior Member
    BBB's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  192 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,871
    Rep Power
    321368
    Level
    39
    Lv. Percent
    8.62%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Pregnenolone is known to modulate at least two key nerve receptor systems in the brain: NMDA receptors and GABA receptors. NMDA receptors, which weaken with age, are involved in learning, memory, and alertness. Pregnenolone enhances NMDA receptor function (maybe some see where I am going with this). GABA receptors promote relaxation, mental slowing, sedation and sleep. Benzodiazepine drugs (Valium, Librium, Xanax, etc.) activate GABA receptors, while pregnenolone inhibits GABA receptors. Thus, too little NMDA activity combined with excessive GABA activity would tend to promote mental sluggishness and depression. Since pregnenolone raises NMDA activity and lowers excessive GABA activity, pregnenolone seems to be a natural antidepressant. Indeed a recent study of 27 depressed patients found that their cerebrospinal fluid (which circulates through the brain and spinal cord) was significantly lower in pregnenolone than in 10 non-depressed volunteers. Cerebrospinal fluid levels are generally believed to accurately reflect levels of various biochemicals in the brain.

    D_
    I have tested my DHEA levels and they are on the low side of normal for my age, I don't remember the numbers. I tend to suffer from lethergy. The above explains why I feel so good and have so much more energy while on DTHC. I use it five days a week (week days only). It is the one product that I actually feel working. I'm not sure how much of an increase in testosterone it may create since I haven't done before and after blood tests. But any increase is welcomed since my testosterone is on the low side of normal for my age as well. 272 the last time it had it checked. I have considered TRT but I know that once started it is a life time commitment since my natural test will be tanked.
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 06-20-2011, 05:56 PM
  2. How much HCG to use to kickstart natural production?
    By lucky in forum Male Anti-Aging Medicine
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-13-2010, 06:31 PM
  3. Natural test production
    By riddler in forum Supplements
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-27-2009, 09:21 PM
  4. Does HRT eventually signal the Adrenals to Halt DHEA production?
    By BigAk in forum Male Anti-Aging Medicine
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 02-20-2007, 12:12 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in