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    Vitamin D bro!!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    They are fine, simply asking DOC which supp is more beneficial for body comp D or LCLT
    It's not so simple. If doing intense and prolonged exercise, LCLT is beneficial. If not getting enough sunlight, D is beneficial. Considering a 100 day supply of vitamin D costs $3, it shouldn't even come down to a choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Don't agree with this statement at all as it is actually immunoresponsive (read: cortisol-inhibiting) and again we are talking CUMMULATIVE effects - everyone suffers from oxidation (hell, breathing causes oxidation). My encouragement would be to look into orthomolecular dosing protocols and how and why they evolved and come back to this topic.


    D_

    I appreciate the response and will look into what you detailed. However, I feel quite strongly about the statement on cortisol and have done a good bit of research to back it up. It appears that in response to a strong external stressor, vitamin C may normalize cortisol levels, but to take a vitamin C supplement for the PURPOSE of cortisol reduction seems quite moot to me.

    As I stated above, in the presence of intense, prolonged activity, vitamin C spaced away from the training session is a great idea. However, for the recreational bodybuilder who is taking part in weight training and cardio 4x a week, I see no reason to blunt endogenous responses to exercise, which are actually quite valuable in terms of the immune system and all the associated benefits. I do not have full-text access off-campus but I have read this paper before (and perhaps you have as well), and it elucidates the role of exercise-induced ROS quite nicely:

    Exercise and the immune system: regulation, integration, and adaptation.

    Pedersen BK, Hoffman-Goetz L.
    Source

    Department of Infectious Diseases and Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen, Denmark. bkp@rh.dk

    Abstract

    Stress-induced immunological reactions to exercise have stimulated much research into stress immunology and neuroimmunology. It is suggested that exercise can be employed as a model of temporary immunosuppression that occurs after severe physical stress. The exercise-stress model can be easily manipulated experimentally and allows for the study of interactions between the nervous, the endocrine, and the immune systems. This review focuses on mechanisms underlying exercise-induced immune changes such as neuroendocrinological factors including catecholamines, growth hormone, cortisol, beta-endorphin, and sex steroids. The contribution of a metabolic link between skeletal muscles and the lymphoid system is also reviewed. The mechanisms of exercise-associated muscle damage and the initiation of the inflammatory cytokine cascade are discussed. Given that exercise modulates the immune system in healthy individuals, considerations of the clinical ramifications of exercise in the prevention of diseases for which the immune system has a role is of importance. Accordingly, drawing on the experimental, clinical, and epidemiological literature, we address the interactions between exercise and infectious diseases as well as exercise and neoplasia within the context of both aging and nutrition

    This one is even more valuable and damn do I wish that I had the full-text on hand because there are some awesome figures laden within it:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...68163707000384

    Exercise, oxidative stress and hormesis
    • Zsolt Radaka, , ,
    • Hae Y. Chungd,
    • Erika Koltaia,
    • Albert W. Taylorb,
    • Sataro Gotoa, c

    Abstract

    Physical inactivity leads to increased incidence of a variety of diseases and it can be regarded as one of the end points of the exercise-associated hormesis curve. On the other hand, regular exercise, with moderate intensity and duration, has a wide range of beneficial effects on the body including the fact that it improves cardio-vascular function, partly by a nitric oxide-mediated adaptation, and may reduce the incidence of Alzheimer's disease by enhanced concentration of neurotrophins and by the modulation of redox homeostasis. Mechanical damage-mediated adaptation results in increased muscle mass and increased resistance to stressors. Physical inactivity or strenuous exercise bouts increase the risk of infection, while moderate exercise up-regulates the immune system. Single bouts of exercise increases, and regular exercise decreases the oxidative challenge to the body, whereas excessive exercise and overtraining lead to damaging oxidative stress and thus are an indication of the other end point of the hormetic response. Based upon the genetic setup, regular moderate physical exercise/activity provides systemic beneficial effects, including improved physiological function, decreased incidence of disease and a higher quality of life.


    In short, a rigorous/regimented training program MORE COMMON to athletes taking part in competitive sports would benefit from the cortisol-lowering capabilities of vitamin C. Recreational BBers will certainly benefit from Vitamin C, but not for cortisol-purposes, and I do not recommend high-dosed supplementation (>2g/day) so that the endogenous antioxidant response can prevail.

    I personally like to spread my Vitamin C as far away from a training session as possible. I'll take 500mg pre-bed on training days and 500mg 3x a day on off-days. I'm not arguing the merits of vitamin C use; I'm arguing that cortisol control is not one of them unless we have a bunch of over-trained board members here .

    Anyway, while we have disagreed on this and a couple other points, we see in-parallel on many topics, and for that reason, I will look into this further. As of now, my feeling is that some levels/forms of oxidation are certainly acceptable and even favorable based on the body's adaptation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    It's not so simple. If doing intense and prolonged exercise, LCLT is beneficial. If not getting enough sunlight, D is beneficial. Considering a 100 day supply of vitamin D costs $3, it shouldn't even come down to a choice.
    Cost is no issue, i just want to keep the supps down to a minimum and use either or but not both, my training is more the former you mentioned, i use sunbeds weekly so i get amply sun, so want the one that has the most beneficial effect on bodycomp?
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    [QUOTE=miniarnold;3352917]So could say 500mg of vit c 4times a day with meals inhibit cortisol if it is elevated through physical/mental stress?
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Cost is no issue, i just want to keep the supps down to a minimum and use either or but not both, my training is more the former you mentioned, i use sunbeds weekly so i get amply sun, so want the one that has the most beneficial effect on bodycomp?
    Asking if something affects body composition is a loaded question. They have benefits that would indirectly benefit body composition, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    So could say 500mg of vit c 4times a day with meals inhibit cortisol if it is elevated through physical/mental stress?
    Yes, I said it could, but the question is: what do we classify as adequate stress? As of now, it appears to be excessive exercise to the point of overtraining (which I hope you would correct LONG BEFORE turning to a single supplement).
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Of course diet plays a role. Read the text. Despite the isocaloric, very-low-calorie diet, there was a significant change in bodyfat topically, but BMI remained the same (unfortunately, BMI is a sh!T figure so it's tough to tell what happened). But yes, it appears that topical fat burners, or at least the one used in this study, caused fat redistribution.


    Thank you for your answer.

    Can Dr. D add some input on this?
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    [QUOTE=mr.cooper69;3355296]Asking if something affects body composition is a loaded question. They have benefits that would indirectly benefit body composition, yes.

    Understood, but if one can only be used for its bodycomp/muscle/fat benefits, then which would be most beneficial
    daily vit d, or daily LCLT?
    Thanks.
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    [QUOTE=miniarnold;3357170]
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Asking if something affects body composition is a loaded question. They have benefits that would indirectly benefit body composition, yes.

    Understood, but if one can only be used for its bodycomp/muscle/fat benefits, then which would be most beneficial
    daily vit d, or daily LCLT?
    Thanks.
    Assuming you are like most individuals on this board, indubitably vitamin D.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    [
    Assuming you are like most individuals on this board, indubitably vitamin D.
    Vit d it is then re-starting it as a staple
    also LCLT i believe is very good for the physique in many ways and this is also a worthwhile as a daily staple you think?
    Cheers
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Vit d it is then re-starting it as a staple
    also LCLT i believe is very good for the physique in many ways and this is also a worthwhile as a daily staple you think?
    Cheers
    Yes it is, but you forced me to pick one lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Yes it is, but you forced me to pick one lol
    yes i did thanx for your choice

    how good is LCLT it increases ar receptors, can increase LH, and helps with strength and recovery i think?, i did read a bunch of studies on it a while back poss on pubmed a few studies showing effects after 21 days with 2g of LCLT
    thanx C
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    yes i did thanx for your choice

    how good is LCLT it increases ar receptors, can increase LH, and helps with strength and recovery i think?, i did read a bunch of studies on it a while back poss on pubmed a few studies showing effects after 21 days with 2g of LCLT
    thanx C
    No, LCLT does not increase LH. By virtue of it's protective effects on xanthine dehydrogenase and hypoxanthine formation, androgen receptor density is preserved in response to exercise.
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    You all are making me want to try this stuff

    Dose?
    Dosing scheme?
    Does the powder tase bad?


    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    No, LCLT does not increase LH. By virtue of it's protective effects on xanthine dehydrogenase and hypoxanthine formation, androgen receptor density is preserved in response to exercise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    You all are making me want to try this stuff

    Dose?
    Dosing scheme?
    Does the powder tase bad?
    2g LCLT preworkout is all you need, though there is also evidence finding 1g and 4g effective.
    Powder is great, nice, tart, and fishy.
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    haha great - thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    2g LCLT preworkout is all you need, though there is also evidence finding 1g and 4g effective.
    Powder is great, nice, tart, and fishy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    No, LCLT does not increase LH. By virtue of it's protective effects on xanthine dehydrogenase and hypoxanthine formation, androgen receptor density is preserved in response to exercise.

    I read this on the Lh effects



    Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effects of feeding and L-carnitine.
    Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effec... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006] - PubMed result

    Abstract

    QUOTE
    PURPOSE: The purpose of this investigation was to determine the effects of 3 wk of L-carnitine L-tartrate (LCLT) supplementation and post-resistance-exercise (RE) feeding on hormonal and androgen receptor (AR) responses. METHODS: Ten resistance-trained men (mean+/-SD: age, 22+/-1 yr; mass, 86.3+/-15.3 kg; height, 181+/-11 cm) supplemented with LCLT (equivalent to 2 g of L-carnitine per day) or placebo (PL) for 21 d, provided muscle biopsies for AR determinations, then performed two RE protocols: one followed by water intake, and one followed by feeding (8 kcal.kg body mass, consisting of 56% carbohydrate, 16% protein, and 28% fat). RE protocols were randomized and included serial blood draws and a 1-h post-RE biopsy. After a 7-d washout period, subjects crossed over, and all experimental procedures were repeated. RESULTS: LCLT supplementation upregulated (P<0.05) preexercise AR content compared with PL (12.9+/-5.9 vs 11.2+/-4.0 au, respectively). RE increased (P<0.05) AR content compared with pre-RE values in the PL trial only. Post-RE feeding significantly increased AR content compared with baseline and water trials for both LCLT and PL. Serum total testosterone concentrations were suppressed (P<0.05) during feeding trials with respect to corresponding water and pre-RE values. Luteinizing hormone demonstrated subtle, yet significant changes in response to feeding and LCLT. CONCLUSION: In summary, these data demonstrated that: 1) feeding after RE increased AR content, which may result in increased testosterone uptake, and thus enhanced luteinizing hormone secretion via feedback mechanisms; and 2) LCLT supplementation upregulated AR content, which may promote recovery from RE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    You all are making me want to try this stuff
    Yea pls tell us Mr C all the good things LCLT can do in terms of bodycomp benefits does it positivly effect muscle and fat?

    do you use it often and do you notice any benefit from it?
    wana hear all the good stuff b4 i take it as a daily staple, you think its worthwhile, the higher the dose the better?

    Thanks man
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    I read this on the Lh effects



    Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effects of feeding and L-carnitine.
    Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effec... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006] - PubMed result

    Abstract

    QUOTE
    PURPOSE: The purpose of this investigation was to determine the effects of 3 wk of L-carnitine L-tartrate (LCLT) supplementation and post-resistance-exercise (RE) feeding on hormonal and androgen receptor (AR) responses. METHODS: Ten resistance-trained men (mean+/-SD: age, 22+/-1 yr; mass, 86.3+/-15.3 kg; height, 181+/-11 cm) supplemented with LCLT (equivalent to 2 g of L-carnitine per day) or placebo (PL) for 21 d, provided muscle biopsies for AR determinations, then performed two RE protocols: one followed by water intake, and one followed by feeding (8 kcal.kg body mass, consisting of 56% carbohydrate, 16% protein, and 28% fat). RE protocols were randomized and included serial blood draws and a 1-h post-RE biopsy. After a 7-d washout period, subjects crossed over, and all experimental procedures were repeated. RESULTS: LCLT supplementation upregulated (P<0.05) preexercise AR content compared with PL (12.9+/-5.9 vs 11.2+/-4.0 au, respectively). RE increased (P<0.05) AR content compared with pre-RE values in the PL trial only. Post-RE feeding significantly increased AR content compared with baseline and water trials for both LCLT and PL. Serum total testosterone concentrations were suppressed (P<0.05) during feeding trials with respect to corresponding water and pre-RE values. Luteinizing hormone demonstrated subtle, yet significant changes in response to feeding and LCLT. CONCLUSION: In summary, these data demonstrated that: 1) feeding after RE increased AR content, which may result in increased testosterone uptake, and thus enhanced luteinizing hormone secretion via feedback mechanisms; and 2) LCLT supplementation upregulated AR content, which may promote recovery from RE.
    Again, that is a secondary effect of LCLT's protective effects on the cell during exercise. It does not increase LH in itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Yea pls tell us Mr C all the good things LCLT can do in terms of bodycomp benefits does it positivly effect muscle and fat?

    do you use it often and do you notice any benefit from it?
    wana hear all the good stuff b4 i take it as a daily staple, you think its worthwhile, the higher the dose the better?

    Thanks man
    bump
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    cANT USE lean extreme banned by my fed,
    any other all natty posibilities for reducing cortisol? cissus any good for this?
    What fed are you in? Ordered a bottle, haven't used it yet...would like to know if this is banned by any natty orgs
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Yea pls tell us Mr C all the good things LCLT can do in terms of bodycomp benefits does it positivly effect muscle and fat?

    do you use it often and do you notice any benefit from it?
    wana hear all the good stuff b4 i take it as a daily staple, you think its worthwhile, the higher the dose the better?

    Thanks man
    As stated earlier, 2g LCLT preworkout only will have positive effects on recovery, VO2 max, and AR density, all of which can indirectly contribute to body composition if dosed long-term.

    It's cheap, and I think it's worth it. Just stick to 2g.
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    Quote Originally Posted by uvawahoowa View Post
    What fed are you in? Ordered a bottle, haven't used it yet...would like to know if this is banned by any natty orgs
    Im in the Uk so its much stricter over here
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    As stated earlier, 2g LCLT preworkout only will have positive effects on recovery, VO2 max, and AR density, all of which can indirectly contribute to body composition if dosed long-term.

    It's cheap, and I think it's worth it. Just stick to 2g.
    Thanks man, can it be dosed postworkout instead of pre?, should it be taken on rest days? do you use it C?
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    I responded to this yesterday but my post was deleted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I responded to this yesterday but my post was deleted.
    Ok then, thanks anyway C
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Ok then, thanks anyway C
    I do use it. Take 2g preworkout, not postworkout.
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    Happens to me all the time

    Sorta SHADY!

    lol

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I responded to this yesterday but my post was deleted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    It's not so simple. If doing intense and prolonged exercise, LCLT is beneficial. If not getting enough sunlight, D is beneficial. Considering a 100 day supply of vitamin D costs $3, it shouldn't even come down to a choice.
    I am pretty inclined to agree with the above. I understand the discussion back and forth on Vitamin D > LCLT from all-around effect; but I am a bigger and bigger fan of mitochondrial optimizers (like carnitine salts and so on) these days.



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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii

    I am pretty inclined to agree with the above. I understand the discussion back and forth on Vitamin D > LCLT from all-around effect; but I am a bigger and bigger fan of mitochondrial optimizers (like carnitine salts and so on) these days.

    D_
    Do you use nitrates sir? Just recently I've been shown studies on their ability to maximize mitochondrial efficiency.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob112

    Do you use nitrates sir? Just recently I've been shown studies on their ability to maximize mitochondrial efficiency.
    Eat beetroots lol
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    I do NOT incorporate nitrates into my plan at present time; simply because there is high-likelihood that with increased mitochondrial efficiency comes increased production of ROS and that would ultimately defeat the purpose. I am not dismissing them - especially in the short-term...but they have no supplemental role at this point and I really could not care for a lot of beetjuice, although green leafy vegetables are a staple.


    D_
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    Think im gonna get on the LCLT, back on vit d as a staple

    would the cortisol inhibitor PS result in fat loss if enough is taken?
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    Quote Originally Posted by runner_79

    Eat beetroots lol
    Eh, I think there is an underdosed nitrate(beet root extract) product already floating around somewhere lol
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii
    I do NOT incorporate nitrates into my plan at present time; simply because there is high-likelihood that with increased mitochondrial efficiency comes increased production of ROS and that would ultimately defeat the purpose. I am not dismissing them - especially in the short-term...but they have no supplemental role at this point and I really could not care for a lot of beetjuice, although green leafy vegetables are a staple.

    D_
    Fair enough. Anecdotally I have had good experiences with them in short term spurts. I am interested to see where the science goes in sports performance.
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    [QUOTE=miniarnold;3374836]
    would the cortisol inhibitor PS result in fat loss if enough is taken?[/QUOTE


    .......anyone know?
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    [QUOTE=miniarnold;3380056][QUOTE=miniarnold;3374836]
    would the cortisol inhibitor PS result in fat loss if enough is taken?[/QUOTE


    Bump for the experts..................
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    Cortisol reduction inhibits lipolysis if that's what you're asking. It does, however, spare muscle and reduce adipocyte differentiation.
    http://pescience.com/
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Cortisol reduction inhibits lipolysis if that's what you're asking. It does, however, spare muscle and reduce adipocyte differentiation.
    Inhibit meaning it stops fat burning or increases it?
    does it require a high daily dose for fat loss say above 600mg?
    do you know of any1 using it and actually loosing fat?, and how should it be cycled?

    Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Inhibit meaning it stops fat burning or increases it?
    does it require a high daily dose for fat loss say above 600mg?
    do you know of any1 using it and actually loosing fat?, and how should it be cycled?

    Thanks.
    yes

    1 gram of 50% should do

    no I don't and you should cycle everything
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
  

  
 

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