"Fat Burners"

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    seen above you aprove of african mango?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    In the above scenario you are talking about ALA. Is there another "blood sugar supplement" (to use an intentionally broad umbrella term) you would use in these instances instead or so you believe ALA would be the superior option?

    Out if interest, why would you use it with a post workout shake but not with the meal immediately following?

    Thanks a lot for your response. I agree that the topic is fascinating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post

    1) Stimulants/Pro-adrenergics: Yohimbine (or Rauwolscine HCl if you are very subject to sides); plenty of different pro-adrenergic amines on the market (not saying they're all DSHEA compliant however); Ephedra (if you can still find it; there are products with this item in it and if USED PROPERLY, then it still has to remain in a discussion of best-in-class)
    2) Thyroid Support: 7-keto DHEA; obviously T2 supplements as well
    3) Cortisol Control (of which is a direct contrast to #1): 7-keto DHEA/7-oxo DHEA (or bAET if topical); Phosphatidylserine (HIGH DOSE)
    4) Glycemic Control Agents: Na-R-ALA/K-R-ALA; Gymnema; Cinnamon
    5) Macronutrient Blockers (not the biggest fan of this category myself for bodybuilders; BUT white kidney bean extract (Phaseolus Vulgaris) and if you could ever get your hands on PROPERLY-MATURED Hoodia; they'd likely be the best in class
    6) Other thermogenics that don't fit neatly into a caterogy: Capsaicin; Raspberry Ketones; Ginger Root

    * If you haven't seen results with 7-keto; you aren't dosing it high enough for you!

    ** This list does NOT include Estrogen Blockers for those who are estrogen dominant! If you're not E-dominant; you will likely NOT see benefit in the fat-loss domain with this class.


    Hopefully this is more in lines with what you had in mind...



    D_
    Can you please elaborate on how or why a cortisol control product such as 7oxo is in contrast to a stimulants/pro-adrenergic product ?

    Does this mean I shouldnt stack something like 7oxo and ECA? Would it not be effective at fat burning?
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    Are cortisol reducing/blocking supps worthwhile when dieting/cutting do they help with fat loss or do they just stop cortisols catabolic effects when dieting?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RawStrength View Post
    Can you please elaborate on how or why a cortisol control product such as 7oxo is in contrast to a stimulants/pro-adrenergic product ?

    Does this mean I shouldnt stack something like 7oxo and ECA? Would it not be effective at fat burning?
    Stimulants generally raise cortisol, among other things. 7-keto has an opposite effect. You can certainly stack 7-keto with EC.

    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Are cortisol reducing/blocking supps worthwhile when dieting/cutting do they help with fat loss or do they just stop cortisols catabolic effects when dieting?
    They help prevent adipocyte differentiation...but cortisol is also essential for fat loss. Still, I'd say the pendulum swings slightly in favor of fat loss.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Stimulants generally raise cortisol, among other things. 7-keto has an opposite effect. You can certainly stack 7-keto with EC.



    They help prevent adipocyte differentiation...but cortisol is also essential for fat loss. Still, I'd say the pendulum swings slightly in favor of fat loss.

    Can the supplement alpha t2 raise cortisol?

    Can you suggest any good natty anti cortisol/cortisol reducing supps?
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Can the supplement alpha t2 raise cortisol?

    Can you suggest any good natty anti cortisol/cortisol reducing supps?
    alpha t-2 as far as I know has not been shown to raise cort levels. It has a minor stim in it but its really more of a thyroid antagonist.
    Lean xtreme has been shown to be awesome at cort control, but I dont believe it's natural. As far as natural goes only thing I can think of would be something like gaba. Reason is since that is a natural anti anxiety less stress=less cortisol. I could be wrong on that one though, but thats just the way I think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmacrazy View Post
    alpha t-2 as far as I know has not been shown to raise cort levels. It has a minor stim in it but its really more of a thyroid antagonist.
    Lean xtreme has been shown to be awesome at cort control, but I dont believe it's natural. As far as natural goes only thing I can think of would be something like gaba. Reason is since that is a natural anti anxiety less stress=less cortisol. I could be wrong on that one though, but thats just the way I think.
    Thanks wanted to check on the alpha if it did

    Thought lean extreme was an all natty product, thanks for pointing that out
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmacrazy View Post
    alpha t-2 as far as I know has not been shown to raise cort levels. It has a minor stim in it but its really more of a thyroid antagonist.
    Lean xtreme has been shown to be awesome at cort control, but I dont believe it's natural. As far as natural goes only thing I can think of would be something like gaba. Reason is since that is a natural anti anxiety less stress=less cortisol. I could be wrong on that one though, but thats just the way I think.
    GABA won't have the effect you think it does; try a hefty morning and evening dose of Phosphatidylserine. LX is natty btw
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    cANT USE lean extreme banned by my fed,
    any other all natty posibilities for reducing cortisol? cissus any good for this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold
    cANT USE lean extreme banned by my fed,
    any other all natty posibilities for reducing cortisol? cissus any good for this?
    Vitamin C* cheapest and quite effective, I can't pull the studies up right now but especially for cortisol induced by exercise, vitamin C does an amazing jog at controlling it.

    1g Pre and post woekout
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    i use 500mg of ester c 4 times daily as an anti-oxidant, i forgot its supposed to help cortisol, and its supposed to help testosterone i believe
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    i use 500mg of ester c 4 times daily as an anti-oxidant, i forgot its supposed to help cortisol, and its supposed to help testosterone i believe
    Vitamin C won't help with cortisol in healthy individuals who aren't doing heavy endurance training/
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    cANT USE lean extreme banned by my fed,
    any other all natty posibilities for reducing cortisol? cissus any good for this?
    No. Just use phosphatidylserine. Though if it's too much of a hassle, it's really not all that important to consistently lower cortisol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Vitamin C won't help with cortisol in healthy individuals who aren't doing heavy endurance training/
    so that would exclude healthy men who do high volume bbuilding workouts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    No. Just use phosphatidylserine. Though if it's too much of a hassle, it's really not all that important to consistently lower cortisol.
    i will look into that one, can you suggest any supps that contain it?, cheers
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    so that would exclude healthy men who do high volume bbuilding workouts?
    I really can't see it being of value unless you really have a chronic overtraining problem. That's not to say don't take vitamin C; rather, don't take it for the purposes of cortisol reduction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    i will look into that one, can you suggest any supps that contain it?, cheers
    Just purchase the bulk form. It is pricy and for that reason I really don't recommend pursuing this case...

    If you can get "cosmetics" in your country, check out genomyx abliderate advanced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Just purchase the bulk form. It is pricy and for that reason I really don't recommend pursuing this case...

    If you can get "cosmetics" in your country, check out genomyx abliderate advanced.
    I had a quick search on phosphatidylserine and it seems it helps reduce cortisol, i will bear it in mind

    Isnt the abliderate advanced a topical fat loss product, and it helps reduce cortisol also what is the ingrediant responsible for that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I really can't see it being of value unless you really have a chronic overtraining problem. That's not to say don't take vitamin C; rather, don't take it for the purposes of cortisol reduction.
    ok, i just take 500mg 4 times a day with meals anyway
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    Sadly, I'm addicted to supplements/attempting to manipulate my physique through micronutrition.

    I have pondered this many many many times - always questioning the insanity, expense and inconvenience of it all. Constantly wondering, WTH am I "really" getting out of all this stuff. Maybe a 1% difference? Hmmmmm

    While there certainly are times I feel I benefit, I can't help but wonder how much of this is placebo.

    Beats the heck out of me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    Too bad antioxidants are a double edged sword:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22060178
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...8/?tool=pubmed

    Besides, many people are trying to chase a hormonal ghost. These relatively small and transient hormonal changes have probably a minuscule or no effect on relevant endpoints. It's beyong me why people micromanage everything so much. I've done it too and while I know my anecdotal experience is practically worthless I've gone from spending >150$ monthly on supplements to only use whey and creatine and I experience no changes whatsoever.
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    Not too far OFF topic - but isnt the MAGIC of oxandrolone/anavar's ability to rip the fat of of users largely due to its cortisol-mitigating attributes?

    I am aware that other steroids also have cortisol-modulating efffects but this very discerable effect is relatively unique to this particulal steroid; hence the wide-spread popularity.

    If so, then this only lends that much more credence to cortisol-modulating supplements while dieting (LeanXtreme, et al). Anecdotally, these work well for me (or as the previous post reflects, it could all be in my head LOL).




    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    No. Just use phosphatidylserine. Though if it's too much of a hassle, it's really not all that important to consistently lower cortisol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Not too far OFF topic - but isnt the MAGIC of oxandrolone/anavar's ability to rip the fat of of users largely due to its cortisol-mitigating attributes?

    I am aware that other steroids also have cortisol-modulating efffects but this very discerable effect is relatively unique to this particulal steroid; hence the wide-spread popularity.

    If so, then this only lends that much more credence to cortisol-modulating supplements while dieting (LeanXtreme, et al). Anecdotally, these work well for me (or as the previous post reflects, it could all be in my head LOL).
    Yes. I believe cortisol-lowering ingredients (lowering spikes more specifically) are definitely valuable when cutting, and I use them myself. My point was that PS is an expensive way to get there, and there's no need to get all strung out over not using a cortisol control aid.

    With regard to the antioxidant post, antioxidants certainly are beneficial, but timing is KEY. You want to take many of them as far apart from your workouts as possible if dosed in significant amounts. Notable exceptions are vitamin C with nitrates and NAC in reasonable doses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Yes. I believe cortisol-lowering ingredients (lowering spikes more specifically) are definitely valuable when cutting, and I use them myself. My point was that PS is an expensive way to get there, and there's no need to get all strung out over not using a cortisol control aid.

    With regard to the antioxidant post, antioxidants certainly are beneficial, but timing is KEY. You want to take many of them as far apart from your workouts as possible if dosed in significant amounts. Notable exceptions are vitamin C with nitrates and NAC in reasonable doses.
    Phosphaditylserine is incredible stuff, the cost is just way too dam high.
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    Quote Originally Posted by antihero View Post
    Phosphaditylserine is incredible stuff, the cost is just way too dam high.
    Shame indeed .
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    Quote Originally Posted by antihero View Post
    Phosphaditylserine is incredible stuff, the cost is just way too dam high.
    I am interested in this, can you share your experience and its effects from it?

    Also if one is to lower cotisol with this supplement, how long can it safely be used for this purpose b4 it becomes detremental, as some cortisol is needed, can use for to long suppress natural cortisol secretion?
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    Cortisol-modulating supplements are valuable for many, but not all. It depends on your needs. dfor some, they may be useless or even detrimental.

    For those of us who experience higher levels of cortisol either acutely or chronically, these can be very beneficial. While others have normal cortisol levels or have no significant stressors and thus, no need as these CAN drive your levels lower than desireable - potenially lending itself to unwelcomed sides (low energy levels, etc).

    The problem occurs as it is rare for us to go get tested to assess our actual needs. So, we wing it and base our "needs" on our un-medically supervised self-assessment.

    Taking these conservatively PWO (especially for the low carb crowd as we do not have the luxury of cab-related insulin spike to offset cortisol; albeit BCAA';s can assist here, namely Leucine).

    For me, these supps are great. However, I am very high stressed (work/life) and a low carb disciple SO my needs are blatantly obvious and subsequently benefit significantly!

    I cycle my use 3 months on/approx 6 weeks off. I belive I read a post where Dsade was 2-3 months on/4 weeks off.

    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    I am interested in this, can you share your experience and its effects from it?

    Also if one is to lower cotisol with this supplement, how long can it safely be used for this purpose b4 it becomes detremental, as some cortisol is needed, can use for to long suppress natural cortisol secretion?
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    ^I agree with Whacked that it can be lifestyle dependent, but please note that almost all individuals will have "naturally occurring" cortisol spikes at different points in the day. One goal of cortisol control aids is to keep these spikes in check. I personally don't introduce my Reduce XT (for cortisol) until the final month of a 12 week cutting cycle. It is during this period that LBM preservation is most pertinent, not to mention the hormonal changes associated with longterm dieting.
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    Thanks fellas, so bcaas are beneficial taken around (intra-workouts) to delay/reduce the rise in cortisol from training?

    how could one tell if cortisol is to high or to low without testing, possible?, i believe to much cortisol can make one gain bodyfat and also hold water, similar to estrogen?

    Im interested in anti-hereos experience with phosphaditylserine, as i can only use this as its natty

    Cheers
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    What about topical fat burners. Are they effective?
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    There is some evidence showing they DO topically reduce fat, but that overall weight is not changed. In other words, they may alter fat storage patterns: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17391155
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    There is some evidence showing they DO topically reduce fat, but that overall weight is not changed. In other words, they may alter fat storage patterns: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17391155
    Are you saying that fat is simply sent away, lets say, from the waist to other parts of yhe body? Won't diet play a role here?
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    Quote Originally Posted by amarula View Post
    Are you saying that fat is simply sent away, lets say, from the waist to other parts of yhe body? Won't diet play a role here?
    Of course diet plays a role. Read the text. Despite the isocaloric, very-low-calorie diet, there was a significant change in bodyfat topically, but BMI remained the same (unfortunately, BMI is a sh!T figure so it's tough to tell what happened). But yes, it appears that topical fat burners, or at least the one used in this study, caused fat redistribution.
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    A lot of discussion has taken place. If I missed some questions as I started back pretty far - just let me know...

    Quote Originally Posted by coolbreeze View Post
    Great stuff Dana! We need to get you on Quantum Physiques radio show again this month!

    I saw an article touting astaxanthin for weight loss - what are your thoughts?
    I am in favor of many carotenoids from multiple paths in a fat-loss regimen. For instance, Asta boosts Testosterone to a small degree; it offers anti-oxidant effects (and oxidation, in simple terms, is how your body eliminates fats), it improves glycemic variation (probably the most quintessential fact to produce fat loss), and so on. Getting enough asta is probably not always the easiest; kind of like the use of Fucoxanthin and how it was thrown into products with the success of the product Fucothin - just not at high enough a dose to save for many other filler ingredients in attempt to make you wooed by the concept of more ingredients.


    Quote Originally Posted by coolbreeze View Post
    Also Dana - what do you think of the notion that having 'cheat' days of overfeeding can keep the metabolism up and help fat loss? Seems dieting leads to lowered fat burning after as little as a week right?
    Decreased caloric intake has the INVARIABLE effect of lowered/slowed metabolism through regulation by the thyroid gland (hypothalamic dysregulation), which if I am not mistaken, we did talk about to a degree on the show. You would have to lower calories continuously in order to continue on the positive fat loss cycle, so the incorporation of well-timed CONTROLLED "cheat" days/meals makes perfect sense. And we can get into the discussion about leptin effects, et al - however, this is a very lengthy discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by phantom View Post
    seen above you aprove of african mango?
    Yes, but sourcing and dose have been something plaguing the industry.


    Ummmm, nice postulate - but no; I remain unconvinced that there is a lot of utility and probably less important for those that use fish oil supplementation anyway. I am convinced impact on WAT is more an effect of PPAR effect than anything adrenergic to mimic albuterol.


    Quote Originally Posted by RawStrength View Post
    Can you please elaborate on how or why a cortisol control product such as 7oxo is in contrast to a stimulants/pro-adrenergic product ?

    Does this mean I shouldnt stack something like 7oxo and ECA? Would it not be effective at fat burning?
    Did you mean - why I list them in different groups? If so, this is purely due to mechanism of action more than anything else.

    If you mean something along the lines of what Mr.Cooper suggests in a later post; then while there is opposition on levels of cortisol impact....carefully-controlled use of such agents can certainly be employed. And whether fortunate or unfortunate - and despite the FACT that fat LOSS is, indeed, a CATABOLIC process - maintenance of muscle mass imparts a more significant effect on the level of overt metabolism and we have seen this again and again in studies.

    I think there is an inherent assumption by many that you should incorporate all ingredients and around the clock when attempting fat loss, however - it is more pertinent to cycle things.

    For instance...

    An adrenergic/stimulant should be employed on a 5-on, 2-off -OR- 3-on, 1-off basis.....NOT every day; possibly even better is an every other day ingestion (don't tell this to supplement manufacturers as they will suggest it to be absolutely ludicrous for obvious reasons). How would an anti-cort aid fit in? The half-life of caffeine fits in at about 4.9-6 hours; barring you're not a smoker (which invariably shortens this timefram requiring higher doses to yield the same lasting effect). At which would leave your Fat-loss/Anti-catabolic stack as such.

    6AM - Anti-Cort Aid
    12PM - Stimulant
    6PM - Anti-Cort Aid

    Why not earlier ingestion of a stimulant? Well, while it may assist your progression to the gym; it also heightens your cortisol output making maintenance of muscle tissue unequivocably non-existent. Again, when all else fails...keep one thing in mind: maintenance of muscle mass keeps metabolism working at its highest level. If it came down to losing weight at all costs; anyone can get thin - stimulate cortisol in excess 24-hours per day. However, when considering maintenance of muscle mass in lieu of fat loss (the reason I think anyone frequents this site); this is the challenge and why it isn't as simple as everyone walking around with that svelte physique.

    Keep in mind that other agents with different half-lifes apply to this scenario in a very different manner. Caffeine is merely the prototype example.


    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Are cortisol reducing/blocking supps worthwhile when dieting/cutting do they help with fat loss or do they just stop cortisols catabolic effects when dieting?
    Too much cortisol can be an inherently bad thing in diminishing return terms while you lose muscle mass and with it; a declining metabolism. Couple this with the potential hypothalamic effects discussed above and you have essentially solved the reasons diets slow down to a virtual hault in probably 85-90% of individuals.



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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Can the supplement alpha t2 raise cortisol?

    Can you suggest any good natty anti cortisol/cortisol reducing supps?
    If I recall correctly, this is a T2 supplement, no? If so, just understand that thyroid supplements can very much so decrease overt muscle mass and as a result hault progress by default if implemented inappropriately.

    I wouldn't suggest there is a direct cortisol-promoting effect however. But that doesn't commit the product to being deemed good or even appropriate in all situations.

    As suggested later: PS is good (but cost-prohibitive in some instances due to the dose needed to truly make physique change of significance...which, in my experience is sometimes double what even the study dose of 600-800mg would call for). Hands-down winner of cortisol control aides, however, is the 7-keto/7-oxo/bAET cascade (again keeping in mind that oral bioavailability decreases going right to left; but level of cort control actually increases/thyroid effect decreases).


    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    GABA won't have the effect you think it does; try a hefty morning and evening dose of Phosphatidylserine. LX is natty btw
    Yes, but cost-prohibitive in many cases as stated above.




    Now, consider the following exchange...

    Quote Originally Posted by pnut143 View Post
    Vitamin C* cheapest and quite effective, I can't pull the studies up right now but especially for cortisol induced by exercise, vitamin C does an amazing jog at controlling it.

    1g Pre and post woekout
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    Too bad antioxidants are a double edged sword:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22060178
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...8/?tool=pubmed

    Besides, many people are trying to chase a hormonal ghost. These relatively small and transient hormonal changes have probably a minuscule or no effect on relevant endpoints. It's beyong me why people micromanage everything so much. I've done it too and while I know my anecdotal experience is practically worthless I've gone from spending >150$ monthly on supplements to only use whey and creatine and I experience no changes whatsoever.

    My response is that CONTROLLED CATABOLISM is actually a good thing if body composition is what you seek. That said, there is not a more perfect time than peri-workout to allow your body to attain some level of overt catabolism. Ingestion of aides around the workout for anti-oxidant effects could have the dubious effect of attenuating cytokines (chemical messengers; in this case - signaling repair singals). I usually suggest people do one of two things:

    1) Avoid products of anti-cort/anti-ox nature 2-4 hours before and 2-4 hours after a workout.
    2) Vitamin C should however be ingested at a level of NO MORE THAN 500 mg at a single sitting to reflect its dose-response curve in terms of becoming an actual PRO-oxidant. However, oxidation happens at each and every meal throughout the day.

    As for the micro-manage commentary; perhaps this is true. However, cummulative micro-manage can translate into macro-gains. The problem is most people still have absolutely NO IDEA how to employ things in a manner that would actually help them. Besides, what to do when you have done everything in your power to attain the physique of your dreams and get "really close" but still fall short of your goals? Drastic times call for...


    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Vitamin C won't help with cortisol in healthy individuals who aren't doing heavy endurance training/
    Don't agree with this statement at all as it is actually immunoresponsive (read: cortisol-inhibiting) and again we are talking CUMMULATIVE effects - everyone suffers from oxidation (hell, breathing causes oxidation). My encouragement would be to look into orthomolecular dosing protocols and how and why they evolved and come back to this topic.


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    So could say 500mg of vit c 4times a day with meals inhibit cortisol?

    Obv there is a world of info on both and there benefits, but what would you say is more beneficial in terms of body composition, to be taken as a daily staple a good dose of vit d say 5000iu, or a daily dose of LCLT at a min of 2-3g per day?
    both of which have benefits in terms of muscle and fat i believe, and can effect T levels AR receptors and fast twitch fibers.

    Thanks Doc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold
    So could say 500mg of vit c 4times a day with meals inhibit cortisol?

    Obv there is a world of info on both and there benefits, but what would you say is more beneficial in terms of body composition, to be taken as a daily staple a good dose of vit d say 5000iu, or a daily dose of LCLT at a min of 2-3g per day?
    both of which have benefits in terms of muscle and fat i believe, and can effect T levels AR receptors and fast twitch fibers.

    Thanks Doc.
    Get ur base vitamin d, magnesium and zinc levels checked...
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    Coop =- Any reaon the ingrediernt used in the study is NOT used in many of the topicals we see on thios board? Aminophyline

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    There is some evidence showing they DO topically reduce fat, but that overall weight is not changed. In other words, they may alter fat storage patterns: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17391155
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Of course diet plays a role. Read the text. Despite the isocaloric, very-low-calorie diet, there was a significant change in bodyfat topically, but BMI remained the same (unfortunately, BMI is a sh!T figure so it's tough to tell what happened). But yes, it appears that topical fat burners, or at least the one used in this study, caused fat redistribution.
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    They are fine, simply asking DOC which supp is more beneficial for body comp D or LCLT
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