"Fat Burners"

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  1. Re: green tea..seeing as how nature is the most synergistic of supplement makers, is it possible other things in green tea and I mean the whole leaf as you would steep to make tea, mitigate any negative hormonal effects of egcg? I am unsure of the actual egcg content in a tea bags worth of green tea or if there is variation between the different grades. Also, what about white tea? Pretty sure it also has egcg.


  2. Bump.
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  3. Dana-

    Would you not call items like Rasberry Ketones, Fuco, Usnic Acid etc - Uncoupling Agents? Heck I think even Omega 3 fats can increase uncoupling protein expression right? These seem to be one of the best ways to lose weight (Not Usnic Acid of course).

  4. Also - isnt Hoodia really an appetite suppressant? I would think this could be another category as the same company that has Testofen also has a patented Slimulina that I think works the same way - killing appetite.

    Heck even 5HTP can diminish appetite a little, right? (via serotonin elevation)


  5. Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    A typical day would look something like this;

    - 6 rashers of free range bacon and 4 free range eggs, one onion.
    - 25g~ BCAAs intra workout
    - 40g~ EAAs with 100g maltodextrin post workout
    - Two salmon fillets and 50g hazelnuts
    - 250g beef mince with onions, tomatoes, herbs etc
    - Chicken and vegetables for dinner. Sometimes potatoes as my only whole food source of starch for the day.

    Goals wise I am not in any particular phase and spend most of my time recomping to a leaner version of myself at the same weight.

    EAAs are mostly because I don't digest whey very well and I am waiting for brown rice protein to come back into stock.
    I would use it at the spots I have designated in red for heightened fat loss (about 30 minutes prior to these, except the post-workout one as your blood sugar will already be declining); BUT...you seem like you could get away with allocating supplement dollars elsewhere for a while; if you want antioxidant prowess + testosterone stimulation, you may try a combo of Vitamin C and NAC instead.


    Quote Originally Posted by broons View Post
    Re: green tea..seeing as how nature is the most synergistic of supplement makers, is it possible other things in green tea and I mean the whole leaf as you would steep to make tea, mitigate any negative hormonal effects of egcg? I am unsure of the actual egcg content in a tea bags worth of green tea or if there is variation between the different grades. Also, what about white tea? Pretty sure it also has egcg.
    I unfortunately do NOT have an answer for your first question. I simply don't know. But, boiling water will decrease some of the EGCG.

    EGCG is the most abundant catechin in teas of all types, EXCEPT black tea because it is usually lost in production. Now, you must understand that green tea and white tea are the same plant (as are every other type of tea, including black - but the fermentation of black renders it's EGCG content essentially nil, whereas oolong can kind of be thought of as a partial black with EGCG in between white/green and black); white tea is just young and harvested early, whereas green tea is more mature and harvested later.

    Most of the research showing the health benefits of green tea is based on the amount of green tea typically consumed in Asian countries—about 3 cups per day (which would provide 240-320 mg of polyphenols). Just one cup of green tea supplies 20-35 mg of EGCG, but you're correct to say that the amount varies dependent upon brand, et al...but usually we get about 20-35 mg in the lab per cup; so take that for what it's worth. White tea is usually accepted as having a higher amount of EGCG when compared to green tea - so it is very likely that it works even moreso against SHBG if that holds true; but white tea hasn't been studied in this capacity...green tea has (alas, we may always have limitations).


    Quote Originally Posted by coolbreeze View Post
    Dana-

    Would you not call items like Rasberry Ketones, Fuco, Usnic Acid etc - Uncoupling Agents? Heck I think even Omega 3 fats can increase uncoupling protein expression right? These seem to be one of the best ways to lose weight (Not Usnic Acid of course).
    In short...YES, albeit to different levels.



    Quote Originally Posted by coolbreeze View Post
    Also - isnt Hoodia really an appetite suppressant? I would think this could be another category as the same company that has Testofen also has a patented Slimulina that I think works the same way - killing appetite.

    Heck even 5HTP can diminish appetite a little, right? (via serotonin elevation)

    Yes, on all questions. Ya know; Hoodia got a bad rap unfortunately and it was simply when supply couldn't match demand and plants were being harvested far too early for it to have true efficacy. It's exceedingly hard to source. I wrote an article series called "The Rise and Fall of Hoodia gordonii" some time ago when I released a fat loss/life extension product known as "Ultra Prime" back in 2007/2008. Hoodia has such an interesting background; I wish we had more time to discuss it here; but let me see if I can dig that article set up and post it.

    As for SlimALUMA; it is an extract of Caralluma fimbriata which does, in fact, act in a way very similar to hoodia and is categorized as more of an appetite suppressant...BUT Irvinga gabonensis probably works a lot better of the three - IF you dose it high enough!!!

    Serotonin cascades are actually quite fun to work with in appetite suppression; but so are other cascades like pro-adrenergic, etc...


    Great topics guys; how is everyone not salivating over this discussion who actively participates in this board would be beyond me.



    D_
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  6. In the above scenario you are talking about ALA. Is there another "blood sugar supplement" (to use an intentionally broad umbrella term) you would use in these instances instead or so you believe ALA would be the superior option?

    Out if interest, why would you use it with a post workout shake but not with the meal immediately following?

    Thanks a lot for your response. I agree that the topic is fascinating.

    Ben
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  7. Lets put together a fat loss stack! Id def trial it, along side some of the supps from the top 10... should be interesting!

  8. sub for later read
    Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}
    Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.

  9. Great stuff Dana! We need to get you on Quantum Physiques radio show again this month!

    I saw an article touting astaxanthin for weight loss - what are your thoughts?
    Last edited by coolbreeze; 01-01-2012 at 07:31 PM. Reason: spelling

  10. Also Dana - what do you think of the notion that having 'cheat' days of overfeeding can keep the metabolism up and help fat loss? Seems dieting leads to lowered fat burning after as little as a week right?

  11. seen above you aprove of african mango?

  12. Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    In the above scenario you are talking about ALA. Is there another "blood sugar supplement" (to use an intentionally broad umbrella term) you would use in these instances instead or so you believe ALA would be the superior option?

    Out if interest, why would you use it with a post workout shake but not with the meal immediately following?

    Thanks a lot for your response. I agree that the topic is fascinating.

    Ben
    Long time bump.
    PEScience Representative
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  13. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post

    1) Stimulants/Pro-adrenergics: Yohimbine (or Rauwolscine HCl if you are very subject to sides); plenty of different pro-adrenergic amines on the market (not saying they're all DSHEA compliant however); Ephedra (if you can still find it; there are products with this item in it and if USED PROPERLY, then it still has to remain in a discussion of best-in-class)
    2) Thyroid Support: 7-keto DHEA; obviously T2 supplements as well
    3) Cortisol Control (of which is a direct contrast to #1): 7-keto DHEA/7-oxo DHEA (or bAET if topical); Phosphatidylserine (HIGH DOSE)
    4) Glycemic Control Agents: Na-R-ALA/K-R-ALA; Gymnema; Cinnamon
    5) Macronutrient Blockers (not the biggest fan of this category myself for bodybuilders; BUT white kidney bean extract (Phaseolus Vulgaris) and if you could ever get your hands on PROPERLY-MATURED Hoodia; they'd likely be the best in class
    6) Other thermogenics that don't fit neatly into a caterogy: Capsaicin; Raspberry Ketones; Ginger Root

    * If you haven't seen results with 7-keto; you aren't dosing it high enough for you!

    ** This list does NOT include Estrogen Blockers for those who are estrogen dominant! If you're not E-dominant; you will likely NOT see benefit in the fat-loss domain with this class.


    Hopefully this is more in lines with what you had in mind...



    D_
    Can you please elaborate on how or why a cortisol control product such as 7oxo is in contrast to a stimulants/pro-adrenergic product ?

    Does this mean I shouldnt stack something like 7oxo and ECA? Would it not be effective at fat burning?

  14. Are cortisol reducing/blocking supps worthwhile when dieting/cutting do they help with fat loss or do they just stop cortisols catabolic effects when dieting?

  15. Quote Originally Posted by RawStrength View Post
    Can you please elaborate on how or why a cortisol control product such as 7oxo is in contrast to a stimulants/pro-adrenergic product ?

    Does this mean I shouldnt stack something like 7oxo and ECA? Would it not be effective at fat burning?
    Stimulants generally raise cortisol, among other things. 7-keto has an opposite effect. You can certainly stack 7-keto with EC.

    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Are cortisol reducing/blocking supps worthwhile when dieting/cutting do they help with fat loss or do they just stop cortisols catabolic effects when dieting?
    They help prevent adipocyte differentiation...but cortisol is also essential for fat loss. Still, I'd say the pendulum swings slightly in favor of fat loss.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Stimulants generally raise cortisol, among other things. 7-keto has an opposite effect. You can certainly stack 7-keto with EC.



    They help prevent adipocyte differentiation...but cortisol is also essential for fat loss. Still, I'd say the pendulum swings slightly in favor of fat loss.

    Can the supplement alpha t2 raise cortisol?

    Can you suggest any good natty anti cortisol/cortisol reducing supps?

  17. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Can the supplement alpha t2 raise cortisol?

    Can you suggest any good natty anti cortisol/cortisol reducing supps?
    alpha t-2 as far as I know has not been shown to raise cort levels. It has a minor stim in it but its really more of a thyroid antagonist.
    Lean xtreme has been shown to be awesome at cort control, but I dont believe it's natural. As far as natural goes only thing I can think of would be something like gaba. Reason is since that is a natural anti anxiety less stress=less cortisol. I could be wrong on that one though, but thats just the way I think.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by mmacrazy View Post
    alpha t-2 as far as I know has not been shown to raise cort levels. It has a minor stim in it but its really more of a thyroid antagonist.
    Lean xtreme has been shown to be awesome at cort control, but I dont believe it's natural. As far as natural goes only thing I can think of would be something like gaba. Reason is since that is a natural anti anxiety less stress=less cortisol. I could be wrong on that one though, but thats just the way I think.
    Thanks wanted to check on the alpha if it did

    Thought lean extreme was an all natty product, thanks for pointing that out

  19. Quote Originally Posted by mmacrazy View Post
    alpha t-2 as far as I know has not been shown to raise cort levels. It has a minor stim in it but its really more of a thyroid antagonist.
    Lean xtreme has been shown to be awesome at cort control, but I dont believe it's natural. As far as natural goes only thing I can think of would be something like gaba. Reason is since that is a natural anti anxiety less stress=less cortisol. I could be wrong on that one though, but thats just the way I think.
    GABA won't have the effect you think it does; try a hefty morning and evening dose of Phosphatidylserine. LX is natty btw

  20. cANT USE lean extreme banned by my fed,
    any other all natty posibilities for reducing cortisol? cissus any good for this?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold
    cANT USE lean extreme banned by my fed,
    any other all natty posibilities for reducing cortisol? cissus any good for this?
    Vitamin C* cheapest and quite effective, I can't pull the studies up right now but especially for cortisol induced by exercise, vitamin C does an amazing jog at controlling it.

    1g Pre and post woekout

  22. i use 500mg of ester c 4 times daily as an anti-oxidant, i forgot its supposed to help cortisol, and its supposed to help testosterone i believe

  23. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    i use 500mg of ester c 4 times daily as an anti-oxidant, i forgot its supposed to help cortisol, and its supposed to help testosterone i believe
    Vitamin C won't help with cortisol in healthy individuals who aren't doing heavy endurance training/

  24. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    cANT USE lean extreme banned by my fed,
    any other all natty posibilities for reducing cortisol? cissus any good for this?
    No. Just use phosphatidylserine. Though if it's too much of a hassle, it's really not all that important to consistently lower cortisol.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Vitamin C won't help with cortisol in healthy individuals who aren't doing heavy endurance training/
    so that would exclude healthy men who do high volume bbuilding workouts?

  26. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    No. Just use phosphatidylserine. Though if it's too much of a hassle, it's really not all that important to consistently lower cortisol.
    i will look into that one, can you suggest any supps that contain it?, cheers

  27. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    so that would exclude healthy men who do high volume bbuilding workouts?
    I really can't see it being of value unless you really have a chronic overtraining problem. That's not to say don't take vitamin C; rather, don't take it for the purposes of cortisol reduction.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    i will look into that one, can you suggest any supps that contain it?, cheers
    Just purchase the bulk form. It is pricy and for that reason I really don't recommend pursuing this case...

    If you can get "cosmetics" in your country, check out genomyx abliderate advanced.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Just purchase the bulk form. It is pricy and for that reason I really don't recommend pursuing this case...

    If you can get "cosmetics" in your country, check out genomyx abliderate advanced.
    I had a quick search on phosphatidylserine and it seems it helps reduce cortisol, i will bear it in mind

    Isnt the abliderate advanced a topical fat loss product, and it helps reduce cortisol also what is the ingrediant responsible for that?
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