Glucose Disposal Agents - Q&A with Dr. Dana Houser

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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post

    body weight x 2-5g is the carb number to shoot for. and protein just 1.2g per KG* (minimum to maintain muscle as shown on keto diets.) I usually do protein from a whey source or pure eggwhite source or mix of both due to extreme bioavailability.

    I just started my refeed after what has been probably the hardest wo day I've ever had,
    chest/tri day, broke two PRs and the session was 3 1/2 hour long, I didn't have one lil bar of energy
    left.
    Pre wo I took 15gr of whey and 25gr of oats as suggested (btw energy was pretty good),
    10gr of bcaa prewo, 15gr intra, 10gr post.

    An hour later my first meal, big pancake made of egg whites, half scoop of whey/casein blend,
    i tsp of fat free cottage cheese and 50gr of oats, no GDA.

    BUT that line that I quoted doesn't sound right.. I'm suppose to eat quite a bit on this refeed
    I'm 74Kg right now (164lbs) and if I follow those numbers I will eat less than I usually eat

    74 * 2gr of carbs = 148gr of carbs
    74 * 1.2gr of protein = 88.8gr of protein??? I mean, I'm almost over this amount already, and I had one meal lol
    I take something like 250/330 gr of protein a day on days on! I have to cut them to 90??
    Sounds really strange..

    Doc suggested two times what I had yesterday and the day before (yesterday I didn't touch
    carbs AT ALL, and the day before my 30gr as usual)

    even if I shoot for two times the cals I had JUST yesterday, how the hell I'm going to get
    them in with these macros? I doubt I should reach 3000cals or more with fats..

    Calculating the weight in lbs would make a lil more sense
    but still low (164*2= 328 carbs - 164*1.2=200 protein),
    but i'm not even close to twice the cals - again - one a normal wo day..

    I'm sure i'm missing something, or I just don't get it..
    My refeed sounds like I'm gonna starve even more than usual :/

    Just with the prewo snack and the first "meal" I already took half
    of the protein for the whole day and 1/3 of the carbs and - following my
    regular day - I'd have another 3 meals to do lol.. how??

    I think ima give up on this refeed thing, just get the same amount of food
    I get everyday and be done with it

    Doc chime in and save me please
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    IMO since he probably wont see this in time to give you his recommendation, what I would do is just set protein where you believe it needs to be, and fill the rest of the 2x yesterday's cals with carbs. Leave fats at trace.

    I personally don't even worry about protein on my refeeds. I get plenty just by way of the food I eat.

    I just look at your refeed and wonder why you are making lowish carb pancakes on a carb refeed, when trying to hit super compensation..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    IMO since he probably wont see this in time to give you his recommendation, what I would do is just set protein where you believe it needs to be, and fill the rest of the 2x yesterday's cals with carbs. Leave fats at trace.

    I personally don't even worry about protein on my refeeds. I get plenty just by way of the food I eat.

    I just look at your refeed and wonder why you are making lowish carb pancakes on a carb refeed, when trying to hit super compensation..
    Cause oats is the higher carb containing food I have at home
    I know something like 40 different recipes with whey, but I can't cook carbs to save my life..
    I tried using rice or potatoes in past but they make me sick, oats don't do that

    Thing is, i hate carbs and while refeed day is enjoyable for most people,
    for me it turns into hell, even worse than a regular day because I can't even eat my protein?
    No way.

    Anyway, thank you for the advice, I'm sure that works for you,
    I don't know what your goal is tho' nor you BF, but I'm very sensitive,
    if I f#ck up it shows on me right away, I don't wanna f#ck up, I'll go paranoid otherwise and
    starve myself for the next 5 days, I know how I am.
    I'll just skip the damn thing, count the cals i got so far and just turn this into a regular day,
    too bad I'm over my daily carb intake already, freaking hate that..
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    Is there anything that lowers the amount of insulin released?

    It looks like most of the products help to stimulate more of a insulin release. For someone on a low carb diet wouldnt it be better if there was a product that help control the insulin release?
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    Autokal

    1.2g per KG is whats suggested in studies as minimum protein to maintain muscle mass while on low calorie keto diet.

    you can stick with 1g per pound, i was just giving a minimum. i usually get in 200g

    fat cals should be trace that day.

    that carb amount though is important.
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    In this case, if I count 2xbodyweight in lbs then I can see that..
    Regardless, I just can't seem to be able to eat carbs, there is no way.

    I ate that ONE pancake which had something like 45/50gr of oats in it
    without that GDA that I was talking about (the one that allows me
    to eat carbs without feeling like hell) and I felt extremely bad within
    minutes.. I skipped the refeed for this week (again..) and at this point
    I don't really see the refeed protocol to be something that will ever work
    for me, I tried way too many times now, if I eat carbs I get bloated,
    I feel bad and most important the next day I am *weak* as sh#t..
    With the GDA i can eat carbs but again not so many and not enough
    to elicit any noticeable reaction in my metabolism or my body

    My only way seems to just boost cals a bit with protein and some healthy fats,
    this will not do much to leptin levels probably but wth am I gonna do?
    I need at least one day in which I'm not in cal deficit and I need it also
    for sanity (even tho' I end up refeeding every 20 days for a reason or another)
    and I hate carbs, it turns into an "even worse dieting" day.. can't be done :/
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    In this case, if I count 2xbodyweight in lbs then I can see that..
    Regardless, I just can't seem to be able to eat carbs, there is no way.

    I ate that ONE pancake which had something like 45/50gr of oats in it
    without that GDA that I was talking about (the one that allows me
    to eat carbs without feeling like hell) and I felt extremely bad within
    minutes.. I skipped the refeed for this week (again..) and at this point
    I don't really see the refeed protocol to be something that will ever work
    for me, I tried way too many times now, if I eat carbs I get bloated,
    I feel bad and most important the next day I am *weak* as sh#t..
    With the GDA i can eat carbs but again not so many and not enough
    to elicit any noticeable reaction in my metabolism or my body

    My only way seems to just boost cals a bit with protein and some healthy fats,
    this will not do much to leptin levels probably but wth am I gonna do?
    I need at least one day in which I'm not in cal deficit and I need it also
    for sanity (even tho' I end up refeeding every 20 days for a reason or another)
    and I hate carbs, it turns into an "even worse dieting" day.. can't be done :/
    boost the cals in MCTs from coconut oil, itll be better, and increase in cals fromthe fat will result in less fat gain , MCTs will be oxidezed to ketones fairly quick especially if used pre workout.

    hey man, when i refeed, i eat gushers fruit snack and skittles, theres no high fructose corn syrup or gluten, so i hardly get bloated from it.

    try it. otherwise hit a box of life cereal. all good. reason why you feel ****ty prolly is carbs are just enough to bump you out of ketosis but not enough to change energy substrate enough where your bodys relying on just carbs or just fats therefore your stuck using some protein and carbs and very little fat for energy.

    especially with GDA use shifting energy towards fat oxidation as opposed to carb utilization (banaba increases glycogenolysis so id exclude that from what i said which is why pre workout they are good as well)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    boost the cals in MCTs from coconut oil, itll be better, and increase in cals fromthe fat will result in less fat gain , MCTs will be oxidezed to ketones fairly quick especially if used pre workout.

    hey man, when i refeed, i eat gushers fruit snack and skittles, theres no high fructose corn syrup or gluten, so i hardly get bloated from it.

    try it. otherwise hit a box of life cereal. all good. reason why you feel ****ty prolly is carbs are just enough to bump you out of ketosis but not enough to change energy substrate enough where your bodys relying on just carbs or just fats therefore your stuck using some protein and carbs and very little fat for energy.

    especially with GDA use shifting energy towards fat oxidation as opposed to carb utilization (banaba increases glycogenolysis so id exclude that from what i said which is why pre workout they are good as well)
    Yea I dunno. Unless he has some sort of legitimate medical condition, it sounds like his biggest drawback, himself.

    It really sounds like you have some food issues, and a lot of this is a mental, mind-****. Bloated from 45g of oats?

    Do a proper refeed before making any judgement calls..IMO. Don't judge yourself on how you look or feel the DAY OF the refeed. Judge yourself how you look and feel days AFTER, a week after, etc.

    I typically will get down 1500-2k grams of carbs, and am a little bloated the day of, the next day I look 75% better then before starting the refeed, by Monday(Saturday refeed) I look like 100% better, and that will hold for a day or two, before I start to deplete again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    Yea I dunno. Unless he has some sort of legitimate medical condition, it sounds like his biggest drawback, himself.

    It really sounds like you have some food issues, and a lot of this is a mental, mind-****. Bloated from 45g of oats?

    Do a proper refeed before making any judgement calls..IMO. Don't judge yourself on how you look or feel the DAY OF the refeed. Judge yourself how you look and feel days AFTER, a week after, etc.

    I typically will get down 1500-2k grams of carbs, and am a little bloated the day of, the next day I look 75% better then before starting the refeed, by Monday(Saturday refeed) I look like 100% better, and that will hold for a day or two, before I start to deplete again.
    i look lgreat on refeed up to 500 carbs. After then im blah, 2 days later i look good. or the next morning. by the 3rd day all watery n ****. but literaly the next week, your tighter , a little leaner, and stronger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    boost the cals in MCTs from coconut oil, itll be better, and increase in cals fromthe fat will result in less fat gain , MCTs will be oxidezed to ketones fairly quick especially if used pre workout.

    hey man, when i refeed, i eat gushers fruit snack and skittles, theres no high fructose corn syrup or gluten, so i hardly get bloated from it.

    try it. otherwise hit a box of life cereal. all good. reason why you feel ****ty prolly is carbs are just enough to bump you out of ketosis but not enough to change energy substrate enough where your bodys relying on just carbs or just fats therefore your stuck using some protein and carbs and very little fat for energy.

    especially with GDA use shifting energy towards fat oxidation as opposed to carb utilization (banaba increases glycogenolysis so id exclude that from what i said which is why pre workout they are good as well)
    Is coconut flour gonna be as good as coco oil? Because I have hard time finding the first one in shops here

    As for the carbs, I don't know if there is a medical condition for such thing, but I know for sure
    after several attempts that carbs do make me feel bad, it has nothing to do with appearance (i don't check myself out
    the day of the refeed or something) my stomach gets bloated, ridiculous amount of air in it and most important
    the next day I feel lethargic and I am objectively weaker, it's a fact I can repeat the experiment 10 times,
    and it gives me the same result.

    I'll try with MCTs then, I was about to anyway
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    Is coconut flour gonna be as good as coco oil? Because I have hard time finding the first one in shops here

    As for the carbs, I don't know if there is a medical condition for such thing, but I know for sure
    after several attempt that carbs do make me feel bad, it has nothing to do with appearance (i don't check myself out
    the day of the refeed or something) my stomach gets bloated, ridiculous amount of air in it and most important
    the next day I feel lethargic and I am objectively weaker, it's a fact I can repeat the experiment 10 times,
    and it gives me the same result.

    I'll try with MCTs then, I was about to anyway
    typically the bloat comes from an allergy.

    now. think of it this way, you may be gluten sensitive or have a gluten allergy. Now if thats the case, AVENIN from oats is similar to that.

    So it can cause issues, hell i cant eat oatmeal. I suggest you try jasmine rice on refeed. replace oats with that. or rice krispies. or some sort of rice related product thats got no whole wheat.

    Even amaranth, or quinoa. you will see a difference. Trust me. The avenin plus fiber may be too much for you,
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    typically the bloat comes from an allergy.

    now. think of it this way, you may be gluten sensitive or have a gluten allergy. Now if thats the case, AVENIN from oats is similar to that.

    So it can cause issues, hell i cant eat oatmeal. I suggest you try jasmine rice on refeed. replace oats with that. or rice krispies. or some sort of rice related product thats got no whole wheat.

    Even amaranth, or quinoa. you will see a difference. Trust me. The avenin plus fiber may be too much for you,
    Gluten kills me, but other carbs work well. Well basically ONLY sweet potato.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    typically the bloat comes from an allergy.

    now. think of it this way, you may be gluten sensitive or have a gluten allergy. Now if thats the case, AVENIN from oats is similar to that.

    So it can cause issues, hell i cant eat oatmeal. I suggest you try jasmine rice on refeed. replace oats with that. or rice krispies. or some sort of rice related product thats got no whole wheat.

    Even amaranth, or quinoa. you will see a difference. Trust me. The avenin plus fiber may be too much for you,
    I know potatoes do the same, rice I have no idea, it's something like 8 years that i haven't touched it

    'bout the coconut oil vs flour? I checked facts and I'm pretty sure is not the same right?
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    Coconut flour, I have some....Its mostly fats and protein. But its the chewy portion of the nut so its mostly all fiber.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    typically the bloat comes from an allergy.

    now. think of it this way, you may be gluten sensitive or have a gluten allergy. Now if thats the case, AVENIN from oats is similar to that.

    So it can cause issues, hell i cant eat oatmeal. I suggest you try jasmine rice on refeed. replace oats with that. or rice krispies. or some sort of rice related product thats got no whole wheat.

    Even amaranth, or quinoa. you will see a difference. Trust me. The avenin plus fiber may be too much for you,
    That is what I am driving at in regards to a "medical" condition.

    It is not normal to be a bloated mess, from 45g of oats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    That is what I am driving at in regards to a "medical" condition.

    It is not normal to be a bloated mess, from 45g of oats.
    or 60gr of potatoes.. I know right?

    I mean, I don't really care since I hate oats, rice, potatoes, bread etc..
    so mentally is all good, I crave protein all the time, beef, eggs, chicken turkey
    that's heaven for me but the whole metabolism thing bothers me
    because I'm sure i'm leaving gains on the table, gains that I could get
    - slowly sure, but I'm not aiming at getting 300lbs or even 200lbs -
    while staying lean :/
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    or 60gr of potatoes.. I know right?

    I mean, I don't really care since I hate oats, rice, potatoes, bread etc..
    so mentally is all good, I crave protein all the time, beef, eggs, chicken turkey
    that's heaven for me but the whole metabolism thing bothers me
    because I'm sure i'm leaving gains on the table, gains that I could get
    - slowly sure, but I'm not aiming at getting 300lbs or even 200lbs -
    while staying lean :/
    broski just eat a FULL box of gushers fruit snacks, its 240g carb for the whole box no high fructose corn sysrup.

    start there, 1 time wont kill you.
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    mmmmmhh Strawberry and Green Apple, man that'd be awesome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    Great thread!

    So what is your recommended dose of R-ala or Na-rala in terms of a lower carb meal for ex. 50g or less, and a larger carb meal of say 100-200g?
    I would love to hear your thoughts on this. As well as your preference between ALA, R-ALA, and NA-RALA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds

    I would love to hear your thoughts on this. As well as your preference between ALA, R-ALA, and NA-RALA
    Me too, I've been doing a lot of reading on the topic and it seems to have some solid science backing its effects on glucose.
    Always willing to learn :D
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    Na-R-Ala is the effective isomer and it is highly soluble so I'm sure he's going to pick Na-R-Ala .
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    Na-R-Ala is the effective isomer and it is highly soluble so I'm sure he's going to pick Na-R-Ala .
    WE SHALL SEE!!!
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    What do you think about recompadrol?

    I eat very low carb and when I eat a meal with 10-20g carbs I usually have 1 cap of recompadrol prior.

    I saw your post about refeeds and stopped taking it when i have my refeeds now
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    Quote Originally Posted by RawStrength View Post
    What do you think about recompadrol?

    I eat very low carb and when I eat a meal with 10-20g carbs I usually have 1 cap of recompadrol prior.

    I saw your post about refeeds and stopped taking it when i have my refeeds now
    this comes to an individuality.

    VS in rats is shown to increase leptin sensitivy when leptin is injected into them.

    your able to kind of offset some of the fat gain via ACL inhibiton and PPARy down regulation along with increased glycogenolysis.

    the insulin increase will still occur you just may need more to get the same responce which is fine if doing a refeed. general refeeds for a 180-185 lb individual (as per dan duchaines kg x 16) is about 1250-1440 carbs in the 2 days. Im sorry but im not doing that wityout a saftey net. Dan duchaine also advocates things like VS for refeeds as well as phenformin OR metformin (which berberine works very similar to show in human studies at 1500mg per day i believe)

    also if your having a **** meal and not a real refeed you want to down regulate gene expression associated with fat gain.
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    Whoa! This is another thread that has gotten a lot of response; but unfortunately it will take me some time to wade through all the posts to give any kind of educated responses. I will likely have some time to offer much more with the holiday weekend.



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    bump
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    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...201000534/full

    ALA on a cheat meal or refeed , after reading this i dont think so!!!!

    dont want to inhibit secrection unless leptin resistant in which case its a golden supplement.

    this also says it doesnt activate the insulin pathway...

    i need full article.

    Keywords:

    • Lipoic acid;
    • Leptin;
    • Obesity;
    • PI3K;
    • Sp1 transcription factor

    Abstract

    Scope: Lipoic acid (LA) is an antioxidant with therapeutic potential on several diseases such as diabetes and obesity. Hyperleptinemia and oxidative stress play a major role in the development of obesity-linked diseases. The aim of this study was to examine in vivo and in vitro the effects of LA on leptin production, as well as to elucidate the mechanisms and signalling pathways involved in LA actions.

    Methods and results: Dietary supplementation with LA decreased both circulating leptin, and adipose tissue leptin mRNA in rats. Treatment of 3T3-L1 adipocytes with LA caused a concentration-dependent inhibition of leptin secretion and gene expression. Moreover, LA stimulated the anaerobic utilization of glucose to lactate, which negatively correlated with leptin secretion. Furthermore, LA enhanced phosphorylation of Sp1 and inhibited Sp1 transcriptional activity in 3T3-L1 adipocytes. Moreover, LA inhibited Akt phosphorylation, a downstream target of phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase (PI3K). Treatment with the PI3K inhibitor LY294002 mimicked LA actions, dramatically inhibiting both leptin secretion and gene expression and stimulating Sp1 phosphorylation.

    Conclusion: All of these data suggest that the phosphorylation of Sp1 and the accompanying reduced DNA-binding activity are likely to be involved in the inhibition of leptin induced by LA, which could be mediated in part by the abrogation of the PI3K/Akt pathway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...201000534/full

    ALA on a cheat meal or refeed , after reading this i dont think so!!!!

    dont want to inhibit secrection unless leptin resistant in which case its a golden supplement.

    this also says it doesnt activate the insulin pathway...

    i need full article.

    Keywords:

    • Lipoic acid;
    • Leptin;
    • Obesity;
    • PI3K;
    • Sp1 transcription factor
    Abstract

    Scope: Lipoic acid (LA) is an antioxidant with therapeutic potential on several diseases such as diabetes and obesity. Hyperleptinemia and oxidative stress play a major role in the development of obesity-linked diseases. The aim of this study was to examine in vivo and in vitro the effects of LA on leptin production, as well as to elucidate the mechanisms and signalling pathways involved in LA actions.

    Methods and results: Dietary supplementation with LA decreased both circulating leptin, and adipose tissue leptin mRNA in rats. Treatment of 3T3-L1 adipocytes with LA caused a concentration-dependent inhibition of leptin secretion and gene expression. Moreover, LA stimulated the anaerobic utilization of glucose to lactate, which negatively correlated with leptin secretion. Furthermore, LA enhanced phosphorylation of Sp1 and inhibited Sp1 transcriptional activity in 3T3-L1 adipocytes. Moreover, LA inhibited Akt phosphorylation, a downstream target of phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase (PI3K). Treatment with the PI3K inhibitor LY294002 mimicked LA actions, dramatically inhibiting both leptin secretion and gene expression and stimulating Sp1 phosphorylation.

    Conclusion: All of these data suggest that the phosphorylation of Sp1 and the accompanying reduced DNA-binding activity are likely to be involved in the inhibition of leptin induced by LA, which could be mediated in part by the abrogation of the PI3K/Akt pathway.
    Wow.. that's some news.

    I haven't been using GDAs on refeed day since this 3d, but at this point
    wouldn't be better not to use ALA AT ALL when dieting to avoid further drop of leptin?
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    Dang this is horrible. Any idea how relevant/significant this study was? I mean there is so much more saying that ALA is a wonder supplement. I dont know if I'd toss it out because of this one study.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    Dang this is horrible. Any idea how relevant/significant this study was? I mean there is so much more saying that ALA is a wonder supplement. I dont know if I'd toss it out because of this one study.
    cant really know aside from the full study to review it all.

    AK- wouldnt matter while dieting, it would just make it less time to do a refeed

    for example every 5 instead of 7 or something like that i would assume.

    i only use it on refeed. and a lot of it. i saw no difference... however....... i havent taken it in almost 2 weeks. and im leaner now then i was. at prolly same caloric intake.
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    Sometimes I'm under the impression that we simply know very lil about what really happens inside our bodies,
    every other day there is a study coming out stating completely the opposite of the one before, and different from
    the one that will come.

    Bah, I'll start to really cut *a lot* of stuff that I use to take, stick to the basics,
    few good product that I know they work on me, good prewo and that's it.
    Diet and kick ass training will do the rest
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47
    Sometimes I'm under the impression that we simply know very lil about what really happens inside our bodies,
    every other day there is a study coming out stating completely the opposite of the one before, and different from
    the one that will come.

    Bah, I'll start to really cut *a lot* of stuff that I use to take, stick to the basics,
    few good product that I know they work on me, good prewo and that's it.
    Diet and kick ass training will do the rest
    Haha. Yup.
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    ALA is amazing, i wont cut it out. i simply just dose higher.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards
    ALA is amazing, i wont cut it out. i simply just dose higher.
    I dose ala pretty high as well. But mainly for overall health. Not just for gda
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    I dose ala pretty high as well. But mainly for overall health. Not just for gda
    i gotta kilo of powder coming to my house this week!

    and 1000 00 caps. gunna cap by hand and some other goodies. goat rue 3% gymnemma HCA yellowgold banaba (all mixed together)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards

    i gotta kilo of powder coming to my house this week!

    and 1000 00 caps. gunna cap by hand and some other goodies. goat rue 3% gymnemma HCA yellowgold banaba (all mixed together)
    Omfg. That's one hell of a nutrient partitioner. Yg is great!!
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    I am not sure if this was asked/answered yet but someone who has taken GDAs can chime in...I am going to start my first GDA got glyocobol on sale so that is going to be my first go. Do you have to cycle off GDAs or is it a supplement you can consider a staple?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdavid View Post
    I am not sure if this was asked/answered yet but someone who has taken GDAs can chime in...I am going to start my first GDA got glyocobol on sale so that is going to be my first go. Do you have to cycle off GDAs or is it a supplement you can consider a staple?
    I do cycle Glycobol, I don't cycle Recompadrol, I still have to open the bottle of Slin Sane
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