Glucose Disposal Agents - Q&A with Dr. Dana Houser
- 11-07-2011, 05:19 PM
I never use GDAs when I take in carbs do to the use of intermittent fasting diet and even on carb up days, I don't bother. I am willing to see what two months of something like Slin Sane will do for me when taken with/before carb meals. Right now I keep carbs low on non-training days and about 150-200 on training days. It is leaning me out and I still have enough energy to do solid workouts though I do look forward to a Saturday carb up on Friday that is for sure. Great information in here, thanks for all the insights guys. I had a feeling it was more using the right compound(s) than them actually working. It seems they do work and K-ALA I knew was a great choice as is NA-R-ALA but getting it was always an issue.If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
- 11-07-2011, 05:20 PM
i like my GDA on refeeds and on non refeeds.
On refeeds i can eat even more then usual to ellicit that same leptin responce which the overfeeding increases t3 levels.
Never had a problem
11-07-2011, 05:36 PM
since I'm using GDAs, especially Recompadrol which acts sort of like a fat burner on me (also the one that
allows me to eat carbs without feeling bad), that's where I miss the link I guess, I never thought GDAs could lower
the natural body response to the carb-up/refeed, even if it's done like I do it, which is in between the two heaviest wo days
I couldn't imagine such thing.
GDAs are indeed way more complex to understand than it seems, at least for me
11-09-2011, 09:36 AM
11-09-2011, 10:34 AM
If you are solely looking to lower -or- keep low body comp, then restricting glycemic variation (ie. - shifts in highs and lows); then taking a GDA straight through a carb-up is fine; however...this will sacrifice the purpose of a supercompensation period allowing you to progress with tension-series lifts and does not agree with the original rationale for the diet. You accomplish the same thing by making sure carbs are low (which it sounds you do); so I am not sure the GDA is giving you the results you are giving it credit for.My goal would be considered odd by most bb I guess, and it comes from a mild form paranoia and fat-phobia, I like to stay lean all year round, actually I'm totally unable to let my BF going over 5/6% (i freak out, can't help it) and also my training is beyond hardcore, is to total body and mind failure for 5 out of 6 training days a week. So gains are slow but somewhat my body is accustomed to such stress and I still manage to get them (actually gained almost 5lbs the last 3 weeks), there are sides tho', sometimes I pass out after a meal, low sex drive, some other time I really cannot function after the wo because how intense that was etc.. I'm sure you got the picture. I have put my body into a fight-or-fight status for a long time.
So my goal would be to, well, be able to continue to do what I'm doing without.. dying? Losing fat becomes harder as you get leaner, and I can't lower calories even more, I'm already in deficit 6 days a week pretty much, so I have to use tricks even to just keep my actual BF and still increasing strength and gain something. Refeed works for strength and gains, GDAs seems to work very well for keeping
my BF this way and still get pumps and vascularity with my meals.
But I've never tried doing a refeed WITHOUT a GDA, and I'm curious now..I think I got the idea of why I shouldn't use them on refeed/carb-up, I'm looking for a high naturalresponse (which in my constantly depleted state will happen big time when refeeding, right?) while GDA will somewhat reduce that. Seems similar to when you say don't use GDAs with your post-wo carbs because it might attenuate the insulin (anabolic) response, am i completely off road? Funny because it makes totally sense even for an ignorant like me, and yet I was absolutely sure that if there was a moment in which a GDA was suppose to be used would've been the refeed
because they are suppose to "shuttle nutrients into muscles" avoiding to store fat, in a way to mimic what happens post-wo.. I'm sure I'm missing something.
You are correct for all intents and purposes (perhaps a little bit simplified) on the "why" the GDA is best left off the "re-feeds." I will guarantee you (100%) that you will NOT store fat in a "true" refeed and will not only shuttle nutrients, but the purpose of a carb-up (refeed, supercompensation) was glycogen manipulation. While you normally store about 2.5 grams of glycogen per each 100 grams of muscle; you actually can trick the system into storing about double that...so 5 grams per each 100 grams of muscle. This WILL translate to expedited results and make you look jacked (not remotely flat) the first 2-3 days of the week after a refeed. It will also provide you additional fuel (in the form of glycogen) to provide for truly "intense" resistance (tension) workouts.
Now...you heighten insulin sensitivity during the periods of low-carb/no-carb which will actually provide a further anabolic response when incorporating carbs.
Which brings me to your next statement...
We actually have talked about IF somewhere else in this subforum (although I don't recall where) and actually brought up it's shortcomings...some are actually thyroidal in nature (which probably means over time and when you age as hormones decline; you will be allowed to eat fewer and fewer calories to achive the physique you are coveting).I wo 6 days a week, 3 heavy, 1 light(ish), 2 heavy, 1 rest. I do my refeed on the first or second of the first three (would be
Sunday or Monday), so i do the refeed between two of my heaviest wo days, and yes I do it in the evening because I'm doing also IF/warrior diet, so I fast for 18h and eat in a 6h window, starting around 7pm (wo is in the morning, fasted as well, just BCAA, vit D3, vit C, prewo, fish oil)
I think you'd be surprised how well it works if done correctly.Damn I'd so love to be able to follow the schedule you posted, but I know I won't be able to, there's no way I'd eat all those calories, I'm not even close to that..On my refeed day I boost cals to +500 from the rest of the week, sometimes a tad more (lately) and that's it :/
Most people screw up having protein too high on a low-carb diet and then dismiss it as the diet's fault thereafter. That's not really it; it's how certain authors have translated the why's people would incorporate such diets and how to do them successfully. Also trying to make their "diet" unique; so they move carbs up and down and all around. While again, I will NOT dismiss this as being an effective way to avoid high levels of glycemic variation...it is NOT the most effective for a bodybuilder to follow.
Again, you have to take advantage of a carb-up the way it was meant. I offer you the analogy of a wet towel. The water is glycogen ... dripping wet. When you wring the towel out; that is the equivalent of "carbing-down" OR "depleting." To take advantage of glycogen manipulation and insulin sensitivity while not losing site of thyroidal peripheral conversion and subsequent axis defects, the "carb-up" or "supercompensation" only really will see tremendous impact in that way.
If not done in this way...then you are likely just seeing the results of limiting glycogen variation....which ... PLEASE DO NOT GET ME WRONG...is NOT a bad thing; but you may as well adopt a meditteranean diet or something from a nutrient density standpoint and you'll achieve the same thing in a more nutritious fashion.
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
11-09-2011, 11:25 AM
That was *terrific* info, clear, simply explained and incredibly interesting, you just clarified so many
doubts I had.
Will write more later on, thanks a lot once more doc
11-09-2011, 12:31 PM
what do you feel is too high protein, i mean as it is, i eat 47% protein 47% fat 6% carb, give or take percent or 2 in my diet, and felt it worked much better for dieting opposed to keto which is 60% fat, 30% protein <10% carb.... while my diet still keeps me in ketosis, as certain supplements blunt gluconeogenesis therefor i assume keeping amino acid pool more "full" thus better recomposition albeit takes longer to diet it down.
But interms of glycemic variation. a GDA wont alter it too much it only blocks X amount of carbs via alpha glucosidase inhibition (carb blocking) . GDAs work mechanisms that AID the fat loss process as well as help deplete glycogen (banaba leaf) ad well as a few other ingredients. so with that said it can aid on the point of low-no carb days. On refeeds, if you do it truely the right way, GDAs will effect it somewhat in terms of fat put on. but i mean 800 carbs, GDAs wont blunt the insulin responce too bad considering the sheer volume of food. But some people dont refeed, the have a **** day, which in esence can still increase the t3 bc its overfeeding, bt overfeeding with LCFA cause more fat gain hence the saftey net of these GDAs. Refeeds simply taking the GDA and adding more carbs would suffice no?
by glycemic variation im assuming the insulin responses you get? because you still get them on a GDA but need more food to illicit the same responce since the GDA takes more pressure off the beta cells right.
plus if these GDAs are activating GLUT 4 wouldnt they therefore aid supercompensation A LA dan duchain. Increases cell sensitivity even more.
11-09-2011, 04:17 PM
And when I mean refeed I mean *100% clean* refeed, no cheat meals, ever.
My refeed is really nothing but my regular meals (100% clean as well) to which I add oats and for a total amount of 100gr of carbs
and usually I let myself eat some more whey mixed with greek yogurt and some oats&protein, fat free home made cookies
as well, cutting the (lil already) paying attention to fats (lil to begin with)
Again, explained very clearly, and definitely your statement about not storing fat just kicked my fat-phobia in the ass
But to be honest I attribute the good results to the fact that eating all my meals starting late evening
it helps me stick to the diet much better, I have no problem not eating during the day because I'm always busy
while at night i get snacky and I tend to be hungry, this way I have all my meals and the fact that I get full
with a 400cals meal makes dieting easier.
I also do not change (aside from the refeed) my diet, I stick to my plan, never change carbs, I can add a lil bit
of natural PB when I really feel I'm passing out, or if a given day wo has been extremely heavy and long (my session
can go up to +3 hours, never under 2 hours..)
How I'm not truly deplete? Because the use of GDA on the days before the refeed?
Or due to the 30gr of carbs? I'm in serious calorie deficit - especially taking into account the intensity and the
length of my wo sessions - the rest of the week..
The plan/diet you described would get me depleted completely (as opposed to what I'm doing now)?
As I said, this is the only part I'm not sure I get :/
I'd feel stupid not to take advantage of your advice, and next refeed I will most definitely try the carb-up (I mean mixed-macros meals, but i'll make sure the carb intake for the day is enough as you described) without the GDAs.
I'll see how that goes and later on, I will try the detailed plan you listed in the previous post,
this is because I've been in such strict diet/cal deficit for so long that I want to give my body a bit of time to get used.
So, thanks a lot
Altho' I can tell you something, i mentioned I gained almost 5lbs in the last 3 weeks, 100% lean gains,
and that because I started to boost calories just a bit, because my wo got way harder, I kept hitting PR and going up with weight for 2 weeks straight and I actually *felt* like I needed a bit more food.
BF didn't changed, if anything it went down a bit and I'm more vascular.
to regurgitate what the doc said, because I don't do cheat meals, and I even have hard time eating the amount of food/carbs that I'm suppose to on refeed, so I don't over-overfeed
so - even if a lil bit - the GDA blunting the refeed purpose/effect of the refeed is going against the goal
11-09-2011, 05:06 PM
if your not overfeeding your not eliciting the t3 responce, you need to essentially double and in some cases triple normal caloric intake from the deficit to refeed.
your case you wont get the t3 manipulation, carbs are too low, cals are still too low,
What he means by truely not depleting is...
your still eating carbs. dont have direct carb sources oats etc.
on refeed day, do a small carb meal pre workout to knock u out of ketosis, then do a high rep full body depletion work (reason for carbs pre workout is to let bodys fuel source for workout change from triglycerides/ketones/fats to carbs). Full body depletion this way you deplete the rest of carbohydrate stores (workout will last 90-120 min) then you refeed! first 4 hours high glycemic next 8-12 low glycemic.
body weight x 2-5g is the carb number to shoot for. and protein just 1.2g per KG* (minimum to maintain muscle as shown on keto diets.) I usually do protein from a whey source or pure eggwhite source or mix of both due to extreme bioavailability.
11-09-2011, 05:23 PM
What he means by truely not depleting is...
your still eating carbs. dont have direct carb sources oats etc.
The day before the refeed only? Or the rest of the week?
Assuming is only the day before, if the day before refeed I take 30gr of carbs
(in form of two whole wheat bread slices) and no other
direct carb source, that's enough not to be depleted?
Yeah I figure about the cals/carbs being too low still on my refeed, I just can't make it
I'll get there slowly, as it right now I can force-feed myself a lil bit, like I already do on my refeed
but if I force-feed myself to that point, to that amount of cals i'd throw up no doubt, I need to get there gradually :/
11-09-2011, 05:25 PM
I also think that perhaps by using certain GDAs you actually force gluconeogenesis, sometimes you might actually fill some glycogen stores. Im not sure... might be IMPOSSIBLE, but I can see this being a problem with ingesting various herbs to illicit a response.
Good read, been here from the beginning but didnt want to pollute the thread.
Hopefully this doesn't.
One quick question for those that might know~
How LONG can one be glycogen depleted before the response of glycogen supercompensation starts to diminish? And how long does it take to get into that supercompensation phase? the ultimate diet 2.0 which has you doing 1.5g*lbm(lbs) per day at around bwx8 for cals for 4 days. Doing a high volume "pump" type workout for 2 days. Then doing a higher weight "hypertrophy" style workout, then refeeding.
Is this long enough? Would it be beneficial for us to take this further? For example, do the first 2 days maybe more spread out, then refeed after a longer period?
Another I just thought of is~ About how long, theoretically, does it take before the body starts trying to refill glycogen via cortisol? And how long before this response overshadows the benefit of keeping carbs low? Theoretically, of course.
11-09-2011, 08:09 PM
Oh my; I will have to look at all the new posts in this one tomorrow.
That's a lot to respond to in one sitting.
Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
11-09-2011, 08:20 PM
vanadyl although D doesnt like it, aids in blocking gluconeogenesis and lowering blood glucose. If you wanted something to blunt rise in sugars mediated by cortisol, look into HOLY BASIL
11-09-2011, 09:13 PM
11-13-2011, 12:12 PM
So what is your recommended dose of R-ala or Na-rala in terms of a lower carb meal for ex. 50g or less, and a larger carb meal of say 100-200g?
11-13-2011, 12:20 PM
I just started my refeed after what has been probably the hardest wo day I've ever had,
chest/tri day, broke two PRs and the session was 3 1/2 hour long, I didn't have one lil bar of energy
Pre wo I took 15gr of whey and 25gr of oats as suggested (btw energy was pretty good),
10gr of bcaa prewo, 15gr intra, 10gr post.
An hour later my first meal, big pancake made of egg whites, half scoop of whey/casein blend,
i tsp of fat free cottage cheese and 50gr of oats, no GDA.
BUT that line that I quoted doesn't sound right.. I'm suppose to eat quite a bit on this refeed
I'm 74Kg right now (164lbs) and if I follow those numbers I will eat less than I usually eat
74 * 2gr of carbs = 148gr of carbs
74 * 1.2gr of protein = 88.8gr of protein??? I mean, I'm almost over this amount already, and I had one meal lol
I take something like 250/330 gr of protein a day on days on! I have to cut them to 90??
Sounds really strange..
Doc suggested two times what I had yesterday and the day before (yesterday I didn't touch
carbs AT ALL, and the day before my 30gr as usual)
even if I shoot for two times the cals I had JUST yesterday, how the hell I'm going to get
them in with these macros? I doubt I should reach 3000cals or more with fats..
Calculating the weight in lbs would make a lil more sense
but still low (164*2= 328 carbs - 164*1.2=200 protein),
but i'm not even close to twice the cals - again - one a normal wo day..
I'm sure i'm missing something, or I just don't get it..
My refeed sounds like I'm gonna starve even more than usual :/
Just with the prewo snack and the first "meal" I already took half
of the protein for the whole day and 1/3 of the carbs and - following my
regular day - I'd have another 3 meals to do lol.. how??
I think ima give up on this refeed thing, just get the same amount of food
I get everyday and be done with it
Doc chime in and save me please
11-13-2011, 12:58 PM
IMO since he probably wont see this in time to give you his recommendation, what I would do is just set protein where you believe it needs to be, and fill the rest of the 2x yesterday's cals with carbs. Leave fats at trace.
I personally don't even worry about protein on my refeeds. I get plenty just by way of the food I eat.
I just look at your refeed and wonder why you are making lowish carb pancakes on a carb refeed, when trying to hit super compensation..
11-13-2011, 01:15 PM
I know something like 40 different recipes with whey, but I can't cook carbs to save my life..
I tried using rice or potatoes in past but they make me sick, oats don't do that
Thing is, i hate carbs and while refeed day is enjoyable for most people,
for me it turns into hell, even worse than a regular day because I can't even eat my protein?
Anyway, thank you for the advice, I'm sure that works for you,
I don't know what your goal is tho' nor you BF, but I'm very sensitive,
if I f#ck up it shows on me right away, I don't wanna f#ck up, I'll go paranoid otherwise and
starve myself for the next 5 days, I know how I am.
I'll just skip the damn thing, count the cals i got so far and just turn this into a regular day,
too bad I'm over my daily carb intake already, freaking hate that..
11-13-2011, 03:10 PM
Is there anything that lowers the amount of insulin released?
It looks like most of the products help to stimulate more of a insulin release. For someone on a low carb diet wouldnt it be better if there was a product that help control the insulin release?
11-14-2011, 08:52 AM
1.2g per KG is whats suggested in studies as minimum protein to maintain muscle mass while on low calorie keto diet.
you can stick with 1g per pound, i was just giving a minimum. i usually get in 200g
fat cals should be trace that day.
that carb amount though is important.
11-15-2011, 09:44 AM
In this case, if I count 2xbodyweight in lbs then I can see that..
Regardless, I just can't seem to be able to eat carbs, there is no way.
I ate that ONE pancake which had something like 45/50gr of oats in it
without that GDA that I was talking about (the one that allows me
to eat carbs without feeling like hell) and I felt extremely bad within
minutes.. I skipped the refeed for this week (again..) and at this point
I don't really see the refeed protocol to be something that will ever work
for me, I tried way too many times now, if I eat carbs I get bloated,
I feel bad and most important the next day I am *weak* as sh#t..
With the GDA i can eat carbs but again not so many and not enough
to elicit any noticeable reaction in my metabolism or my body
My only way seems to just boost cals a bit with protein and some healthy fats,
this will not do much to leptin levels probably but wth am I gonna do?
I need at least one day in which I'm not in cal deficit and I need it also
for sanity (even tho' I end up refeeding every 20 days for a reason or another)
and I hate carbs, it turns into an "even worse dieting" day.. can't be done :/
11-15-2011, 10:02 AM
hey man, when i refeed, i eat gushers fruit snack and skittles, theres no high fructose corn syrup or gluten, so i hardly get bloated from it.
try it. otherwise hit a box of life cereal. all good. reason why you feel ****ty prolly is carbs are just enough to bump you out of ketosis but not enough to change energy substrate enough where your bodys relying on just carbs or just fats therefore your stuck using some protein and carbs and very little fat for energy.
especially with GDA use shifting energy towards fat oxidation as opposed to carb utilization (banaba increases glycogenolysis so id exclude that from what i said which is why pre workout they are good as well)
11-15-2011, 10:07 AM
It really sounds like you have some food issues, and a lot of this is a mental, mind-****. Bloated from 45g of oats?
Do a proper refeed before making any judgement calls..IMO. Don't judge yourself on how you look or feel the DAY OF the refeed. Judge yourself how you look and feel days AFTER, a week after, etc.
I typically will get down 1500-2k grams of carbs, and am a little bloated the day of, the next day I look 75% better then before starting the refeed, by Monday(Saturday refeed) I look like 100% better, and that will hold for a day or two, before I start to deplete again.
11-15-2011, 10:14 AM
11-15-2011, 10:26 AM
As for the carbs, I don't know if there is a medical condition for such thing, but I know for sure
after several attempts that carbs do make me feel bad, it has nothing to do with appearance (i don't check myself out
the day of the refeed or something) my stomach gets bloated, ridiculous amount of air in it and most important
the next day I feel lethargic and I am objectively weaker, it's a fact I can repeat the experiment 10 times,
and it gives me the same result.
I'll try with MCTs then, I was about to anyway
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